Undeletable file. I'm stumped.

[glee]

In

Oh compiling the source code is very relevant! As here is were you can
choose to have the live distro use the Windows swapfile or not if
found.
Once it is compiled, it is too late to change it.


I just posted all of the details to Philo in this very subthread just
yesterday. In fact, a few minutes before my post to you which you just
replied too. I think the key is having US Robotics iband installed
(it's
free). Without it, I probably would have never known Ubuntu Live was
messing around in the Windows partition.

Paul also mentioned back in March of 2011, that he had caught the Live
distros poking around where they shouldn't be as well. Here is the
repost below.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Paul <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Subject: Re: Windows not load
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 21:48:02 -0400


I can't report I've had a similar experience.

But my systems have nothing but hard drives.

The only practice I don't approve on, from the Linux community, is
"scanning" of drives as part of the startup sequence. Some LiveCD
distros, are known to "search" for a copy of the image you're booting
from. Presumably the purpose, is to do a loopback mount of the image,
as a replacement for accessing the CD itself. But I still don't
approve of monkey-business. A LiveCD should just mind its own
business.

If you have a "toasted install", it sure would be nice to tell us what
got toasted, so we can judge the mechanism.

The older releases of Knoppix (5 series), used to bring up foreign
file systems read-only, as a precaution. (You had to tick something
in a dialog to go read/write.) But newer releases enable read/write
(presumably because the NTFS driver is now more trusted than it used
to
be).

And yes, I have seen re-use of the page file. The Kaspersky scanner,
which is based on Gentoo, seems to like to use the Windows pagefile
for swap. The easiest way to tell this, is to use the "top" command,
and see how much swap is evident in the display. Then, correlate that
with the size of pagefiles on your various partitions. It's not really
a big deal, but also not the best practice I can think of.

I've worked with plenty of older LiveCDs, where they don't provide
swap
automatically
(because there may be no place to put it), and if the OS is then put
under
memory pressure, the OS will crash. (It seems at least a few LiveCDs,
have had poor tuning of a couple of kernel parameters. I've noticed
that improved on some of them, so somebody figured it out.) If you're
using one of the older LiveCDs, then either do your own "swapon", or
at
least watch with vmstat, how full you're getting.

We've been through this all before, and I really don't want to waste a
lot of time re-hashing it. What you describe happened on your system
when using an Ubuntu Live CD does not indicate anything about it having
used the Windows swap file. Your Windows system froze according to your
earlier post, when you booted back to Windows after using the Ubuntu
Live CD, with a Windows Installer box on-screen.... clearly indicating
that the issue was with a faulty Windows installation, possibly the
iBand monitor you had installed.

User-compiling of the source code has nothing to do with using a Live CD
with the default settings. If you compiled the distro yourself before
making a Live CD, then you were not using the standard Live CD. With a
standard Live CD, it will operate from RAM and the CD only, unless you
use specific parameters to tell it otherwise. Specific Live CDs for
forensic use may have modifications for the utility that is using the CD
for a specific purpose, and any Live CD can be run with user-defined
parameters that could allow use of the hard drive for some operations,
but that is not the default for a standard Live CD.... you have to allow
it quite specifically.

Your related snippet from Paul does not back up your statement either.
Paul's only comment that is at all relevant to your claim is about the
Kaspersky CD, which again is NOT a standard Linux Live CD, it's a
modified version specialized for Kaspersky malware scanning and removal.
On top of that, Paul's explanation does not show that the Kaspersky
rescue CD was actually using the Windows page file at all, only that
there was a similarity in sizes between Kaspersky's "swap" and the
Windows page file that was already in existence on the hard drive. The
fact is, the Windows page file and the Linux swap file are OS-specific,
and Linux cannot use the OS-specific page file in Windows.

You of course can believe whatever you like, but you really don't have
any evidence backing it up. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Is my Ubuntu 10.4.2 LTS LiveCD using my hard drive for a swap file?
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1788136

 

[BillW50]

In

We've been through this all before, and I really don't want to waste a
lot of time re-hashing it. What you describe happened on your system
when using an Ubuntu Live CD does not indicate anything about it
having used the Windows swap file. Your Windows system froze
according to your earlier post, when you booted back to Windows after
using the Ubuntu Live CD, with a Windows Installer box on-screen....
clearly indicating that the issue was with a faulty Windows
installation, possibly the iBand monitor you had installed.

User-compiling of the source code has nothing to do with using a Live
CD with the default settings. If you compiled the distro yourself
before making a Live CD, then you were not using the standard Live
CD. With a standard Live CD, it will operate from RAM and the CD
only, unless you use specific parameters to tell it otherwise.
Specific Live CDs for forensic use may have modifications for the
utility that is using the CD for a specific purpose, and any Live CD
can be run with user-defined parameters that could allow use of the
hard drive for some operations, but that is not the default for a
standard Live CD.... you have to allow it quite specifically.

Your related snippet from Paul does not back up your statement either.
Paul's only comment that is at all relevant to your claim is about the
Kaspersky CD, which again is NOT a standard Linux Live CD, it's a
modified version specialized for Kaspersky malware scanning and
removal. On top of that, Paul's explanation does not show that the
Kaspersky rescue CD was actually using the Windows page file at all,
only that there was a similarity in sizes between Kaspersky's "swap"
and the Windows page file that was already in existence on the hard
drive. The fact is, the Windows page file and the Linux swap file
are OS-specific, and Linux cannot use the OS-specific page file in
Windows.
You of course can believe whatever you like, but you really don't have
any evidence backing it up. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Is my Ubuntu 10.4.2 LTS LiveCD using my hard drive for a swap file?
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1788136

Look Glen! I used the stock Ubuntu iso that everybody downloaded and
made it boot from a SD card. Nothing special there. And if I use it on
my EeePC with Windows XP installed and just boot the Live distro and do
nothing else. Nothing should have happened right? Right!

Now I boot XP once again and now it hangs with a window saying Windows
installer. Why? What caused that? Nothing changed except Ubuntu Live was
booted and nothing was done and then shut down right away. That's it!
Plain and simple!

You can believe Live doesn't touch Windows at all, but I know better! It
does in fact touch Windows. And the average home user would have had a
very hard time repairing the damage that Ubuntu Live did. It is so cut
and dry I can produce it a million times if I wanted too. I am that sure
of it.

There is no opinion. There is no guesswork. It is a plain fact! Fully
provable time and time again. You can't argue against that. And the only
thing that caught Linux Live in the act was my non-standard XP install.
If it wasn't different than most, I too never would have been the wiser.

The only reason why I mentioned compiling Linux from the source code is
to open your eyes. There is where you see this nonsense. There you can
select whether or not the Live distro messes with Windows or not. I am
trying to help you understand. There is all the proof you need of this
nonsense and it is the final nail in the coffin. And if you want to
guarantee that Live won't mess with Windows then you personally have to
compile it yourself. Otherwise, all bets are off!

 

[glee]

In

Look Glen! I used the stock Ubuntu iso that everybody downloaded and
made it boot from a SD card. Nothing special there. And if I use it on
my EeePC with Windows XP installed and just boot the Live distro and
do
nothing else. Nothing should have happened right? Right!

Now I boot XP once again and now it hangs with a window saying Windows
installer. Why? What caused that? Nothing changed except Ubuntu Live
was
booted and nothing was done and then shut down right away. That's it!
Plain and simple!

You can believe Live doesn't touch Windows at all, but I know better!
It
does in fact touch Windows. And the average home user would have had a
very hard time repairing the damage that Ubuntu Live did. It is so cut
and dry I can produce it a million times if I wanted too. I am that
sure
of it.

There is no opinion. There is no guesswork. It is a plain fact! Fully
provable time and time again. You can't argue against that. And the
only
thing that caught Linux Live in the act was my non-standard XP
install.
If it wasn't different than most, I too never would have been the
wiser.

The only reason why I mentioned compiling Linux from the source code
is
to open your eyes. There is where you see this nonsense. There you can
select whether or not the Live distro messes with Windows or not. I am
trying to help you understand. There is all the proof you need of this
nonsense and it is the final nail in the coffin. And if you want to
guarantee that Live won't mess with Windows then you personally have
to
compile it yourself. Otherwise, all bets are off!

Bill, in this scenario you describe, are you saying you attribute
running the Linux Live CD to causing the Windows Installer pop-up when
you started Windows? Are you implying that the Linux CD boot caused the
execution of a Windows Installer executable, even though Linux can't run
a Windows Installer file? How do you figure that?

Windows Installer pop-ups like that are due to an incomplete or faulty
install of a program that uses Windows Installer. How do you reconcile
that with your claim?

 

[BillW50]

In

Bill, in this scenario you describe, are you saying you attribute
running the Linux Live CD to causing the Windows Installer pop-up when
you started Windows? Are you implying that the Linux CD boot caused
the execution of a Windows Installer executable, even though Linux
can't run a Windows Installer file? How do you figure that?

Windows Installer pop-ups like that are due to an incomplete or faulty
install of a program that uses Windows Installer. How do you
reconcile that with your claim?

No Glen... what I am saying that this Windows XP runs fine and dandy for
years. No problems whatsoever. I don't know if iband.dll involves the
Windows Installer every time it boots? I might, but you never see the
window. Anyway no problems whatsoever.

Now you just boot up Ubuntu Live and do nothing with it. Don't peek into
the Windows partition or anything. And just shut Linux down. Totally
harmless I would think.

Now if you boot Windows XP, it locks up. What gives? It was Linux Live,
plain and simple. I have demonstrated this a number of times and it
happened every single time. There is no excuse, Linux is doing something
to Windows. Sure whatever it is doing, most users wouldn't know a thing.
I truly believe that. But whatever it is doing it can make some Windows
unbootable.

As far as I am concern, whether Linux Live leaves Windows bootable or
not. That isn't the point. The most important point is that it shouldn't
be doing anything to Windows at all without your permission. But it does
and I caught it with my XP system (and it is reproducible).

 

[glee]

In

No Glen... what I am saying that this Windows XP runs fine and dandy
for years. No problems whatsoever. I don't know if iband.dll involves
the Windows Installer every time it boots? I might, but you never see
the window. Anyway no problems whatsoever.

Now you just boot up Ubuntu Live and do nothing with it. Don't peek
into the Windows partition or anything. And just shut Linux down.
Totally harmless I would think.

Now if you boot Windows XP, it locks up. What gives? It was Linux
Live, plain and simple. I have demonstrated this a number of times and
it happened every single time. There is no excuse, Linux is doing
something to Windows. Sure whatever it is doing, most users wouldn't
know a thing. I truly believe that. But whatever it is doing it can
make some Windows unbootable.

As far as I am concern, whether Linux Live leaves Windows bootable or
not. That isn't the point. The most important point is that it
shouldn't be doing anything to Windows at all without your permission.
But it does and I caught it with my XP system (and it is
reproducible).

....yet no one else seems to have repro'd it or documented it. That
tends to point to an issue on your system, not with Linux Live CD.
As I said, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[philo]

In

No I did not...I said a live CD (at least some of them) will make use of
a *Linux* /swap partition if it exists. I never said anything about
Linux using a Windows swap file

It is totally impossible for a Linux live cd to do anything to a Windows
installation unless that partition is mounted first

 

[philo]

...yet no one else seems to have repro'd it or documented it. That
tends to point to an issue on your system, not with Linux Live CD.
As I said, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I will also have to disagree .
I have seen nothing to substantiate the Windows swap file was used.
The OP's problem was with the Windows installer starting up , then hanging

 

[BillW50]

In

...yet no one else seems to have repro'd it or documented it. That
tends to point to an issue on your system, not with Linux Live CD.
As I said, we'll have to agree to disagree.

You can't be serious? It is documented for one. It is documented when
you compile the source. And how do you explain it is my system? You
can't come up with one single working theory how it can be my system!
This isn't rocket science. Any five year old can figure this out. But
you can't? Why is that?

 

[BillW50]

In

It is totally impossible for a Linux live cd to do anything to a
Windows installation unless that partition is mounted first

I know for a fact that statement isn't true.

 

[BillW50]

In

I will also have to disagree .
I have seen nothing to substantiate the Windows swap file was used.
The OP's problem was with the Windows installer starting up , then
hanging

You need a working theory to be believable. Maybe you forgot to supply
one.

1) Windows XP SP2 works fine everyday.

2) Ubuntu Live 8.10 booted from USB and then shutdown.

3) Windows XP no longer boots.

4) Restore XP from backup

5) Windows XP now boots like it always did

6) Booted Puppy Linux Live from USB and then shutdown

7) Windows XP still boots just fine like always.

8) Ubuntu Live 8.10 booted from USB and then shutdown.

9) Windows XP no longer boots.

10) Restore XP from backup

11) Windows XP now boots like it always did

I can repeat this over and over again and the results are always the
same. Also the question isn't really about the Windows swapfile. The
only reason why the Windows swapfile was introduced was it's a working
theory from a Linux expert. But it doesn't have to be related to the
swapfile at all. So the real question is what is going on here? I
believe any five year old could figure this one out. It isn't really
that hard.

 

[philo]

In

one.

1) Windows XP SP2 works fine everyday.

2) Ubuntu Live 8.10 booted from USB and then shutdown.
n and the results are always the
same. Also the question isn't really about the Windows swapfile. The
only reason why the Windows swapfile was introduced was it's a working
theory from a Linux expert. But it doesn't have to be related to the
swapfile at all. So the real question is what is going on here? I
believe any five year old could figure this one out. It isn't really
that hard.

If any five year old could figure it out...then why haven't you done so????

sheesh

 

[philo]

In

I know for a fact that statement isn't true.

Then you've proven you know less than nothing

Maybe you need to do a little research on what it means to mount a file
system

 

[BillW50]

In

If any five year old could figure it out...then why haven't you done
so????
sheesh

I have! It is so simple! Ubuntu Live is messing with the Windows
install. But you can't figure that one out. Why is that?

 

[BillW50]

In

Then you've proven you know less than nothing

Maybe you need to do a little research on what it means to mount a
file system

What? Is this a joke? No mounting knowledge is necessary to boot Ubuntu
Live and then shutting it back down again. And I am the one that has
proven to know less than nothing?

 

[Char Jackson]

In

You can't be serious? It is documented for one. It is documented when
you compile the source. And how do you explain it is my system? You
can't come up with one single working theory how it can be my system!
This isn't rocket science. Any five year old can figure this out. But
you can't? Why is that?

Sorry, Bill, but the theories of Glen and philo make sense, while your
theory doesn't. So far it's one person, you, claiming to have a
problem with one system, an old XP SP2 system with a bit of
non-mainstream software installed, and using one live distro.

If you want to be taken seriously, start testing on other systems,
with other OS and software mixes, and with other live distros. One
person, one PC, and one distro is not enough to draw a solid
conclusion, but so far it looks like user error or something to do
with the obsolete system that you supposedly tested.

 

[philo]

In

I have! It is so simple! Ubuntu Live is messing with the Windows
install. But you can't figure that one out. Why is that?

"messing with" has no technical meaning in my book.
You first said it wrote to the swap file but when you were called on
that you changed your story...

 

[philo]

In

What? Is this a joke? No mounting knowledge is necessary to boot Ubuntu
Live and then shutting it back down again. And I am the one that has
proven to know less than nothing?

OK
I specifically said you can not modify anything on a drive unless
you first mount it...again you have changed your story...

Maybe you should consider it's time to quit trolling now

 

[BillW50]

In

Sorry, Bill, but the theories of Glen and philo make sense, while your
theory doesn't.

No way! Any halfwit can figure it out. It isn't that hard. Run Linux and
Windows gets trashed. Saying anything other than Linux is doing it
wouldn't make any sense. This isn't rocket science you know.

So far it's one person, you, claiming to have a
problem with one system, an old XP SP2 system with a bit of
non-mainstream software installed, and using one live distro.

It doesn't matter what OS is on the drive. The claim is that Linux Live
won't touch it. And I know for a fact that is wrong!

If you want to be taken seriously, start testing on other systems,
with other OS and software mixes, and with other live distros. One
person, one PC, and one distro is not enough to draw a solid
conclusion, but so far it looks like user error or something to do
with the obsolete system that you supposedly tested.

I haven't used any Linux Live on any Windows system since that day
except I started today. And I tried 8.04, 9.10, and 12.04.1 so far of
Ubuntu Live and every one of them were accessing the Windows drive a
number of times while Linux was booting. Philo says that doesn't happen.
Yet I bet it happens for everybody on any system. Why? What is Linux
doing with the Windows drive?

I tried the same with BartPE. And BartPE booted completely and the
Windows drive light never lit up even once. So there is no way anybody
is going to tell me that Linux Live doesn't touch your Windows drive. As
the drive's access light is saying otherwise.

I haven't got the same conditions that I did back in 2009 yet. That will
take some time to setup yet. I even still have backups from back then
too. ;-)

 

[BillW50]

In

"messing with" has no technical meaning in my book.
You first said it wrote to the swap file but when you were called on
that you changed your story...

No I said Linux Live can use the Windows swapfile. Whether it does or
not depends on the one who compiled Linux. The end user has no say so in
the matter.

 

[BillW50]

In

OK
I specifically said you can not modify anything on a drive unless
you first mount it...again you have changed your story...

No I haven't. I said just booting Linux Live and exiting, Windows got
trashed.

Maybe you should consider it's time to quit trolling now

No trolling from me. You claimed Linux Live wouldn't touch the Windows
drive until you mount it. Then why does Linux Live flash my hard drive
lights while Linux is loading from CD for? I booted up BartPE from CD
and the Windows drive light never lit up once. So BartPE isn't accessing
the Windows drive, but Linux is. How do you explain that one?