A
Arno Wagner
Previously J. Clarke said:
Of course. Sorry. I was thinking something like "reliable enough that
99% of the normal users will not experience a failure in their
lifetime"
Arno
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Of course. Sorry. I was thinking something like "reliable enough that
99% of the normal users will not experience a failure in their
lifetime"
Arno
A
Arno Wagner
Then I might as well go with the IBM Deskstar.
By the same logic you could delete all your data. You should go for
the best reliability/cost ratio in your cost segment.
For me that is currently Maxtor/Seagate/Samsung with RAID1 or RAID5
and additional backup for critical stuff. For you this may be something
else entirely. The point is that the issue reliable storage can today not
be solved simply by buying a "reliable disk".
Look at some other technology: Good quality paper is extremely
reliable today. If you store with some care, it will keep > 100
years. (Not necessarily with laser or inkjet printing, but try
a pencil.) Computer storage has a long way to go to reach this
reliability level but there are ways to make it good enough
by additional precautions.
Arno
A
Arno Wagner
That's like asking if Microsoft Works...
MS does work. The problem is that people see them in the wrong
market segment. They make toys. People think they make tools.
Arno
J
J. Clarke
Brody said:Why bother, this newsgroup seldom generates meaningful answers.
There are a few who post here because they actually want to help, Svend
for example. Most of the rest strut around trying to show how clever
they are while never actually answering a question.
My question was simple. Who makes a reliable drive. I should not have to
state that I mean a drive operated within the manufacturers
specifications; external OR internal is irrelevant
The bottom line is that all manufacturers make some drives that are reliable
and some that aren't. And there's no repository of information on drive
reliability--you'll get anecdotal evidence here. For example I've never
had a problem with IBM 75GXPs, but just about everybody else has and their
failure rate is notorious. So if you use my experience I'll tell you that
they're great drives. And I would be wrong.
Someone else here might have a 100% failure rate with enterprise SCSI drives
and would tell you that they are not reliable. And he would be misleading
you with that information just as much as I would with my experience
concerning the 75GXPs.
If you want reliability, then _assume_ that the drive is going to fail and
that it is a consumable and make the appropriate accommodations. That's
why RAID exists, because no drive is reliable enough for mission-critical
storage in modern business.
J
J. Clarke
Arno said:By the same logic you could delete all your data. You should go for
the best reliability/cost ratio in your cost segment.
For me that is currently Maxtor/Seagate/Samsung with RAID1 or RAID5
and additional backup for critical stuff. For you this may be something
else entirely. The point is that the issue reliable storage can today not
be solved simply by buying a "reliable disk".
Look at some other technology: Good quality paper is extremely
reliable today. If you store with some care, it will keep > 100
years. (Not necessarily with laser or inkjet printing, but try
a pencil.)
Laser should be as permanent as it's going to get. Carbon-black pigment
bonded to the paper is hard to beat with a paper-based system.
Shellac-base drafting ink in a pen plotter will also last a good long time.
C
CJT
I've found Seagate, Maxtor, and WD drives are all quite reliable. I'veBrody said:Why bother, this newsgroup seldom generates meaningful answers.
There are a few who post here because they actually want to help, Svend
for example. Most of the rest strut around trying to show how clever
they are while never actually answering a question.
My question was simple. Who makes a reliable drive. I should not have to
state that I mean a drive operated within the manufacturers
specifications; external OR internal is irrelevant
never had a DOA or infant mortality with any of them.
Pay close attention to power and heat and you should be fine.
A
Arno Wagner
Previously J. Clarke said:Arno Wagner wrote:
Laser should be as permanent as it's going to get. Carbon-black pigment
bonded to the paper is hard to beat with a paper-based system.
I found that on laser-prints that have been stored a longer time the
pages may start to stick together. Maybe that problem is fixed today.
Shellac-base drafting ink in a pen plotter will also last a good long time.
Definitely.
Arno
J
J. Clarke
Arno said:I found that on laser-prints that have been stored a longer time the
pages may start to stick together. Maybe that problem is fixed today.
Will also stick to certain plastics. Sheets sticking together seems mainly
to occur with double-sided printing.
O
Odie Ferrous
Brody said:My question was simple. Who makes a reliable drive.
Brody,
I get a lot of drives through here.
The following is based on drives I receive for data recovery, and my own
perception of the storage market.
I am finding that of the current crop of drives, the Seagate ST series
is the best - I get very few in for recovery. They are my first choice
- by a long, long margin.
The worst are Deskstars. Again, by a long margin. Not only are they
falling over all the time, but they are absolute pigs to recover. This
goes for all their current models up to and including the 123.5GB (I
don't have sufficient data on larger drives to begin including them) as
well as their drives up to 3 years old. Avoid like the plague.
Maxtor are also terrible. I believe (from hearsay and from my own
experience - I do not have official figures for this) that Maxtor are
probably out-selling all other drives on the market. They seem to be
the standard choice for external drive housings, which is madness, as
they appear to be the most susceptible to heat-related failure. They
are also damn awkward to work with. Their overall percentage of failure
rate my not be as bad as that - but I don't know how many drives they
are shifting. I'm only guessing that they are the biggest sellers.
A few months ago I would have listed Western Digital as reliable.
However, I am suddenly seeing huge amounts of BB drives in. (WD800BB,
1200BB and 2000BB.) I see very few JB-configured drives in.
I know that a great deal of regulars on this newsgroup will disagree
with me. Before you start flaming, remember that these are all my own
opinions based on my own experiences and my own perception of the drive
market.
Odie
T
Timothy Daniels
Odie Ferrous said:[........]
Maxtor are also terrible. I believe (from hearsay and
from my own experience - I do not have official figures
for this) that Maxtor are probably out-selling all other
drives on the market. They seem to be the standard
choice for external drive housings, which is madness,
as they appear to be the most susceptible to heat-related
failure....
Do your comments apply to Maxtor's internal ATA
7200rpm drives with fluid bearings as well? Specifically,
what is your opinion about the DiamondMax Plus 9
drives?
*TimDaniels*
T
Tom Scales
Timothy Daniels said:Odie Ferrous said:[........]
Maxtor are also terrible. I believe (from hearsay and
from my own experience - I do not have official figures
for this) that Maxtor are probably out-selling all other
drives on the market. They seem to be the standard
choice for external drive housings, which is madness,
as they appear to be the most susceptible to heat-related
failure....
Do your comments apply to Maxtor's internal ATA
7200rpm drives with fluid bearings as well? Specifically,
what is your opinion about the DiamondMax Plus 9
drives?
*TimDaniels*
Every single one of my Maxtor failures was an internal ATA fluid bearing
drive. Some failed internal to the PC, some failed in external cases, but I
am up to Four, count'em Four, failures.
Tom
B
Brody
Odie said:Brody,
I get a lot of drives through here.
The following is based on drives I receive for data recovery, and my own
perception of the storage market.
I am finding that of the current crop of drives, the Seagate ST series
is the best - I get very few in for recovery. They are my first choice
- by a long, long margin.
The worst are Deskstars. Again, by a long margin. Not only are they
falling over all the time, but they are absolute pigs to recover. This
goes for all their current models up to and including the 123.5GB (I
don't have sufficient data on larger drives to begin including them) as
well as their drives up to 3 years old. Avoid like the plague.
Maxtor are also terrible. I believe (from hearsay and from my own
experience - I do not have official figures for this) that Maxtor are
probably out-selling all other drives on the market. They seem to be
the standard choice for external drive housings, which is madness, as
they appear to be the most susceptible to heat-related failure. They
are also damn awkward to work with. Their overall percentage of failure
rate my not be as bad as that - but I don't know how many drives they
are shifting. I'm only guessing that they are the biggest sellers.
A few months ago I would have listed Western Digital as reliable.
However, I am suddenly seeing huge amounts of BB drives in. (WD800BB,
1200BB and 2000BB.) I see very few JB-configured drives in.
I know that a great deal of regulars on this newsgroup will disagree
with me. Before you start flaming, remember that these are all my own
opinions based on my own experiences and my own perception of the drive
market.
Odie
Thanks Odie, this gives me something to work with.
J
J. Clarke
Tom said:Timothy Daniels said:Odie Ferrous said:[........]
Maxtor are also terrible. I believe (from hearsay and
from my own experience - I do not have official figures
for this) that Maxtor are probably out-selling all other
drives on the market. They seem to be the standard
choice for external drive housings, which is madness,
as they appear to be the most susceptible to heat-related
failure....
Do your comments apply to Maxtor's internal ATA
7200rpm drives with fluid bearings as well? Specifically,
what is your opinion about the DiamondMax Plus 9
drives?
*TimDaniels*
Every single one of my Maxtor failures was an internal ATA fluid bearing
drive. Some failed internal to the PC, some failed in external cases, but
I am up to Four, count'em Four, failures.
Did you get all the drives from the same source? How were they packaged
when they arrived?
A
Arno Wagner
Previously Odie Ferrous said:I get a lot of drives through here.
The following is based on drives I receive for data recovery, and my own
perception of the storage market.
I am finding that of the current crop of drives, the Seagate ST series
is the best - I get very few in for recovery. They are my first choice
- by a long, long margin.
Intereresting.
The worst are Deskstars. Again, by a long margin. Not only are they
falling over all the time, but they are absolute pigs to recover. This
goes for all their current models up to and including the 123.5GB (I
don't have sufficient data on larger drives to begin including them) as
well as their drives up to 3 years old. Avoid like the plague.
You would have thought that by now they fixed the quality issue.
Not so apparently. The older ones are no surprise at all.
Maxtor are also terrible. I believe (from hearsay and from my own
experience - I do not have official figures for this) that Maxtor are
probably out-selling all other drives on the market. They seem to be
the standard choice for external drive housings, which is madness, as
they appear to be the most susceptible to heat-related failure. They
are also damn awkward to work with. Their overall percentage of failure
rate my not be as bad as that - but I don't know how many drives they
are shifting. I'm only guessing that they are the biggest sellers.
Persaonally I have had an increased failure rate of about 17% (~20
drives, > 1 year) in 200GB Maxtors and 0% in 120GB Maxtors (royghly
same conditions). But all well cooled. Heat may be their main
weakness. I found that if you do SMART monitoring (especially
the reallocated_sector_count) and regular surface scans (manual
or long self test) you get good early warning. No sudden catastrophic
failures like the deathstars.
A few months ago I would have listed Western Digital as reliable.
However, I am suddenly seeing huge amounts of BB drives in. (WD800BB,
1200BB and 2000BB.) I see very few JB-configured drives in.
Also interesting.
I know that a great deal of regulars on this newsgroup will disagree
with me. Before you start flaming, remember that these are all my own
opinions based on my own experiences and my own perception of the drive
market.
Well, I for one like this info. Seems to be a valuable data point to
me. Thanks!
Arno
O
Odie Ferrous
Timothy said:Odie Ferrous said:[........]
Maxtor are also terrible. I believe (from hearsay and
from my own experience - I do not have official figures
for this) that Maxtor are probably out-selling all other
drives on the market. They seem to be the standard
choice for external drive housings, which is madness,
as they appear to be the most susceptible to heat-related
failure....
Do your comments apply to Maxtor's internal ATA
7200rpm drives with fluid bearings as well? Specifically,
what is your opinion about the DiamondMax Plus 9
drives?
*TimDaniels*
The worst (from memory - I am now keeping far more detailed logs) in
order:
Very worst: DiamondMax Plus 8 (Fluid bearings)
Next DiamondMax Plus 9 (ditto)
Least worst Fireball 3
The older drives do cause problems, but aren't such a nightmare to
repair.
The DiamondMax Plus 9 seems to be current flavour for external USB
devices. They have a terrible heat problem, and no way should they be
used as such.
Odie
M
Mike Tomlinson
Odie Ferrous said:Maxtor are also terrible. I believe (from hearsay and from my own
experience - I do not have official figures for this) that Maxtor are
probably out-selling all other drives on the market.
You're probably right, since every trade distributor's price list I look
at (UK) has Maxtor as the cheapest drives. A lot of system builders
therefore choose them, and they are the most prevalent drive make on
offer at computer fairs.
M
Mike Tomlinson
Arno Wagner said:Persaonally I have had an increased failure rate of about 17% (~20
drives, > 1 year) in 200GB Maxtors and 0% in 120GB Maxtors (royghly
same conditions). But all well cooled. Heat may be their main
weakness. I found that if you do SMART monitoring (especially
the reallocated_sector_count) and regular surface scans (manual
or long self test) you get good early warning. No sudden catastrophic
failures like the deathstars.
I agree with this. The failure mode of Maxtors seems to be developing
large numbers of bad sectors. Monitoring the linux syslog (or windows
event viewer) for drive errors is another way to spot this. At least it
gives the user the chance to get some data off.
M
Mike Tomlinson
Brody <[email protected]> said:Then I might as well go with the IBM Deskstar.
You may as well write all your data to /dev/null. ;-)
T
Tom Scales
J. Clarke said:Tom Scales wrote:
Did you get all the drives from the same source? How were they packaged
when they arrived?
Different sources (two came with Dell machines), different models, different
capacities. One OEM mailorder. One retail local purchase.
The only thinkg common was they were Maxtors.
A
Arno Wagner
Previously Odie Ferrous said:Timothy said:Odie Ferrous said:[........]
Maxtor are also terrible. I believe (from hearsay and
from my own experience - I do not have official figures
for this) that Maxtor are probably out-selling all other
drives on the market. They seem to be the standard
choice for external drive housings, which is madness,
as they appear to be the most susceptible to heat-related
failure....
Do your comments apply to Maxtor's internal ATA
7200rpm drives with fluid bearings as well? Specifically,
what is your opinion about the DiamondMax Plus 9
drives?
*TimDaniels*
The worst (from memory - I am now keeping far more detailed logs) in
order:
Very worst: DiamondMax Plus 8 (Fluid bearings)
Next DiamondMax Plus 9 (ditto)
Least worst Fireball 3
The older drives do cause problems, but aren't such a nightmare to
repair.
What does actually break in these? All/mostly heat related (I assume
bearing failure?) or also other things?
The DiamondMax Plus 9 seems to be current flavour for external USB
devices. They have a terrible heat problem, and no way should they be
used as such.
I definitely agree. They get far hotter than Maxtor specifies
unless they have significant airflow.
BTW any insights about Samsung?
Arno