turbulent flow not bad for cooling

[kony]

"kornnball" verbiates


What the hell is a "noise:flow ration"?

It's a typo. Guess which letter doesn't belong.

And so what if
bulk flow rate reduces but the increased turbulence
compensates?

So you now concede that flow rate reduces.

Increased turbulence doesn't compensate for that.

No, just trying to keep it laminar.
That means trying to
keep it non-turbulent, konehead.

I've stated the issues several times, and you only a
half-baked theory without any examples of introducing this
turbulence, helping to cool any overheating parts.

There's no point to your crazy ideas Tim, the industry knows
better and you will be the only one with a louder or hotter
system.

I'm done with the thread since you never do anything but
troll and pretend to cover something new that was already
covered multiple times- but never a test.

 

[kony]

Here are some interesting discussions and comments:

You still don't get it Tim, there is a flow rate reduction
that does matter.

Everyone has already chosen NOT to create more turbulence at
the expense of airflow.

You're just too thick to see the forest for the trees.

I'm done with the thread because you can't learn and are too
lazy to test.

 

[kony]

"kornball" tries to dance his way out:


I have never denied that flow rate played a part in
cooling by forced draft. Indeed, the higher the flow
rate, the increased likelihood of generating turbulence.

Yes, on the part as I'd clearly stated several times.

Unfortunately you continually ignore that heated air also
has to be removed from the system, and that the air also has
to cool OTHER parts in same system too.

I'm done with the thread- you cannot claim your idea is
applicable to a typical computer without testing. It's
really that simple, no thought you have overrides proof,
while the rest of the industry could cause pre or post part
turbulence quite easily and cheaply if they so chose.

 

[kony]

Quite right - there's an awful lot spoken about heatsinks by people
who clearly do not understand the basics - that's all I would claim
to understand, but you know something is amiss if you simply _look_
at the heatsinks sold to case modders and overclockers.

How many _shiny_, _silver_ (or copper coloured for that matter)
heatsinks have you seen, for instance? They may look very nice
but it's basic physics - the best colour is matt black.

The difference from color is usually very minor, and the
annodized finish can in itself offset the improvement you'd
otherwise have from it being matte. Most parameters matter
more.

Similarly
I've seen passively cooled sinks with their fins arranged horizontally,
again a no-no for anyone who's done even the slightest study into
the things.

True, but what does it have to do with the context of
computers? A passive sink in a computer is not necessarily
better with non-horizontal fins, because while the sink is
passive it is in an actively cooled system, more often than
not (you seldom see any systems without ANY fans in them).

It's long been my suspicion that a lot of sinks sold to end users
are designed with cosmetics (simply _looking_ impressive) in mind
rather than actual efficiency.

Certainly some are, but others that look similar enough
really do perform impressively.

 

[kony]

Each layout and case is different....
[......]
Getting as much outside (cooler) air to the critical components
and getting as much hot air back out is the goal. HS's by nature
cause turbulence when cooling the CPU, but as far as the case
itself, it may take a bit of tweaking here and there to get the best
results, laminar airflow and/or turbulent airflow.

Absolutely correct.

Until you start trying to spew nonsense to twist it towards
your agenda.

Cool air that contacts the components per
unit time is what is important.

Yes, as I've said all along.

Whether the turbulence that
promotes that is caused by design or by accident is not
important to the heated parts.

This is where you are wrong. You cannot resolve the fact
that "by design" necessarily means a reduction in flow rate.

The goal is to maximize flow rate to the part, and away from
the part. The turbulence that is by design or accident is
only useful when occuring ON the surface of the part being
cooled.

This is shown in all cooling systems. A perforated grill
over anything hot would help if your theory were true, but
it does not.

Once again you try to fixate on only one variable and argue
away all the others, when it was already known the others
had as much effect and an entire industry designs around
their experience, not your random speculations.

 

[kony]

I am picking "*one* aspect* to write about that is often denigrated
by "experts" as being undesirable.

.... and you still think if only you write enough that it
will matter but you are wrong.

It is known that turbulence ON the hot part helps. Nobody
has argued against this. IF we could have increased
turbulence, created prior to reaching the part such that
there was then even more turbulence ON the hot part, that
too would help. The problem is, we cannot get that
increased turbulence prior to the part without a decrease in
airflow.

This much we see all around us in existing products. You'll
have to build something that uses your [lower airflow,
higher turbulence] idea and demonstrate to cools better.
Until you do, you only have the entire world full of
existing equipment against you.

 

[kony]

Here are more examples of and advice regarding
turbulence and forced draft cooling:

http://www.overclockers.com/tips90/ -

"Turbulent air cools better. Say, for sake of argument,
you have a simple tube with a fan in the middle. The fan pulls
air from one side of the tube, and blows into the other. If you
have a hot component on the exhaust side of the fan, it will
be more efficiently cooled than on the intake side.

Say for example, that you have a computer system, not a
dissimilar situation, and instead of having a reduced flow
rate from the component no matter which side it's on, you
have a higher flow rate until you try to test your idea.

Oops, you never did test your idea.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

So you now concede that flow rate reduces.

Do you actually understand English?
"And so what if" doesn't concede *anything*.
It's a hypothetical phrase.

Increased turbulence doesn't compensate for that.

On what do you base that?

I've stated the issues several times, and you only a
half-baked theory without any examples of introducing this
turbulence, helping to cool any overheating parts.

There is nothing "half-baked" about the benefits of
turbulence to aid in heat transfer between a solid
object and a surrounding moving fluid. It is basic
physics and fluid dynamics.

There's no point to your crazy ideas Tim, the industry knows
better and you will be the only one with a louder or hotter
system.

What industry? The modders cottage industry?

I'm done with the thread since you never do anything but
troll and pretend to cover something new that was already
covered multiple times- but never a test.

It's interesting that not once did you address the more than
dozen links that I listed regarding the benefits of turbulence
in cooling. Old dogs prefer not to learn new tricks.

*TimDaniels*

 

[Timothy Daniels]

"kornball" ignores evidence:

You still don't get it Tim, there is a flow rate reduction
that does matter.

Why, then, do manufacturers of industrial cooling systems
design turbulence production into their systems?

Haven't you read the webpages that I linked?

Everyone has already chosen NOT to create more turbulence at
the expense of airflow.

Who is "everyone"? It certainly doesn't include Dell Computers.


*TimDaniels*

 

[Timothy Daniels]

"kornball" gives up:

Unfortunately you continually ignore that heated air also
has to be removed from the system...

Are you implying that trubulent air is hard to remove
from the system? That's absurd. First you say that
cooling is best when there is "self-turbulence" at a
part to be cooled, and now you imply that such turbulent
air is hard to remove. Quite a somersault. Did you
hurt yourself?

...and that the air also has to cool OTHER parts in same
system too.

I'll excuse your non sequitur if you explain that one.
What does successful cooling of one part have to
do with another part? Are you saying that the technique
to cool one part must not be so good that it transfers
too much heat to the flowing air, thereby not leaving
enough cool air to cool the next part? <LOL>
That's the Kornball Theory of Partial Success.
May I quote you on that?

I'm done with the thread-

Hey, kornball! You still haven't addressed all the links
that I gave:


http://www.thermaflo.com/crosscut.shtml

"Turbulent air breaks the stagnant air boundary layers
around the pins and, as a result, enhances the heat sink's
thermal performance."

http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=2001

"To induce turbulence within the fins and improve thermal
transmission between the air and metal, Thermalright have
modified the aluminum fins by adding 'proprietary bent winglets'."

http://sound.westhost.com/heatsinks.htm

"Simple convection is not as effective (even for the same rate
of flow of air), because of the "laminar" flow of air (where the
air at the surface of the heatsink moves slower than that further
away). This effect can be easily seen on a windy day. If you stay
close to a wall or other large area (lying on the ground works too),
it will be noticed that it is less windy than out in the open. Exactly
the same thing happens with heatsinks (but on a somewhat
reduced scale). Creating turbulence is an excellent way to defeat
this process, but this requires fans, and fans are noisy."

http://www.fischerelektronik.de/fischer2002/fischer/Fachb-Act_Rep/kuehlkonzepte/KKoneng_e.htm

"The heat transfer towards the flowing air that can be achieved
with plain fins is relatively restricted. The laminar air flow that
emerges is not sufficient to carry off the heat. Therefore, attempts
are being made to improve heat transfer (fins to air) by producing
more turbulent flow using an appropriate fin geometry."

http://www.hilltech.com/products/uv_components/UV_irradiators.html

"Optimizing cooling efficiency in an LIA is achieved by using
a heatsink-based aluminum reflector, where the material has
a high thermal conductivity and the design maximizes the effects
of surface area and turbulence. Within reason, the more surface
area the better the lamp cooling. Also important is turbulence,
because of the skin effect in cooling. A thin layer of air surrounding
a cooling surface acts as a thermal insulator impeding the effect
of forced air-cooling. This layer needs to be disrupted by turbulent
airflow, which can be created by providing irregular fins and fin
geometries."

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6729383.html

"at least some said protrusions affect said streaming of said
fluid so as to enhance the turbulence of said streaming of said
fluid, thereby enhancing convective heat transfer from said
object to said fluid."

http://www.overclockers.com/tips90/ -

"Turbulent air cools better. Say, for sake of argument,
you have a simple tube with a fan in the middle. The fan pulls
air from one side of the tube, and blows into the other. If you
have a hot component on the exhaust side of the fan, it will
be more efficiently cooled than on the intake side.

"This is because the air on the exhaust side of the fan
is more turbulent. For lack of a better explanation, the loops
and whorls of turbulent air moving across the surface pick
up more heat. The effective surface area of the object is
increased. (Actually, it was explained to me by saying the
effective surface area of the air is increased.) The total
volume of airflow remains the same, but turbulent air just
cools better."

http://www.begellhouse.com/books/497d60632054f587,6ddfe1a32b58c789.html -

"Turbulent flow is the most common form of motion of liquids
and gases playing the role of the heat-transfer medium in thermal
systems. The complexity of turbulent flow and the importance of
hydrodynamics and heat transfer in practice inspired continuing
research for methods of efficient heat augmentation by the
Lithuanian Energy Institute. The solution of this problem was directly
linked with the determination of the reaction of flow in the boundary
layer to the effect of various factors and heat transfer rate under
given conditions. The investigated factors included elevated degree
of turbulence of the external flow as well as strong acceleration and
turbulization of flow near the wall by surface roughness. The material
in this volume shows that it is possible to control the efficiency of
turbulent transfer when the vortical structure of the turbulent flow is
known."

http://www.cougarlabs.com/cool2.html -

"For convective heat transfer to work well, we need to get the
heat energy out into the flowing coolant. Turbulence will do this
for us."

http://www.ceere.org/beep/docs/FY2002/Turbulent_Flow_in_Enclosure.pdf -

"Comparatively speaking, turbulent flows often lead to higher
transport rate of momentum, energy and mass than laminar flows.
These features are widely made use of in energy systems in industry.
For example, turbulence enhancers such as ribs are added to
cooling systems of turbine blades and microelectronic devices
to create more turbulent motions so that the overall heat transfer
efficiency can be improved."


*TimDaniels*

 

[Timothy Daniels]

"kornball" spake:

Say for example, that you have a computer system, not a
dissimilar situation, and instead of having a reduced flow
rate from the component no matter which side it's on, you
have a higher flow rate until you try to test your idea.

That's not English, kornball. Try a course in expository
writing. But if you want to elaborate, be my guest.
Your English is always good for a laugh.

Oops, you never did test your idea.

Numerous others have tested it for me:

http://www.thermaflo.com/crosscut.shtml

"Turbulent air breaks the stagnant air boundary layers
around the pins and, as a result, enhances the heat sink's
thermal performance."

http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=2001

"To induce turbulence within the fins and improve thermal
transmission between the air and metal, Thermalright have
modified the aluminum fins by adding 'proprietary bent winglets'."

http://sound.westhost.com/heatsinks.htm

"Simple convection is not as effective (even for the same rate
of flow of air), because of the "laminar" flow of air (where the
air at the surface of the heatsink moves slower than that further
away). This effect can be easily seen on a windy day. If you stay
close to a wall or other large area (lying on the ground works too),
it will be noticed that it is less windy than out in the open. Exactly
the same thing happens with heatsinks (but on a somewhat
reduced scale). Creating turbulence is an excellent way to defeat
this process, but this requires fans, and fans are noisy."

http://www.fischerelektronik.de/fischer2002/fischer/Fachb-Act_Rep/kuehlkonzepte/KKoneng_e.htm

"The heat transfer towards the flowing air that can be achieved
with plain fins is relatively restricted. The laminar air flow that
emerges is not sufficient to carry off the heat. Therefore, attempts
are being made to improve heat transfer (fins to air) by producing
more turbulent flow using an appropriate fin geometry."

http://www.hilltech.com/products/uv_components/UV_irradiators.html

"Optimizing cooling efficiency in an LIA is achieved by using
a heatsink-based aluminum reflector, where the material has
a high thermal conductivity and the design maximizes the effects
of surface area and turbulence. Within reason, the more surface
area the better the lamp cooling. Also important is turbulence,
because of the skin effect in cooling. A thin layer of air surrounding
a cooling surface acts as a thermal insulator impeding the effect
of forced air-cooling. This layer needs to be disrupted by turbulent
airflow, which can be created by providing irregular fins and fin
geometries."

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6729383.html

"at least some said protrusions affect said streaming of said
fluid so as to enhance the turbulence of said streaming of said
fluid, thereby enhancing convective heat transfer from said
object to said fluid."

http://www.overclockers.com/tips90/ -

"Turbulent air cools better. Say, for sake of argument,
you have a simple tube with a fan in the middle. The fan pulls
air from one side of the tube, and blows into the other. If you
have a hot component on the exhaust side of the fan, it will
be more efficiently cooled than on the intake side.

"This is because the air on the exhaust side of the fan
is more turbulent. For lack of a better explanation, the loops
and whorls of turbulent air moving across the surface pick
up more heat. The effective surface area of the object is
increased. (Actually, it was explained to me by saying the
effective surface area of the air is increased.) The total
volume of airflow remains the same, but turbulent air just
cools better."

http://www.begellhouse.com/books/497d60632054f587,6ddfe1a32b58c789.html -

"Turbulent flow is the most common form of motion of liquids
and gases playing the role of the heat-transfer medium in thermal
systems. The complexity of turbulent flow and the importance of
hydrodynamics and heat transfer in practice inspired continuing
research for methods of efficient heat augmentation by the
Lithuanian Energy Institute. The solution of this problem was directly
linked with the determination of the reaction of flow in the boundary
layer to the effect of various factors and heat transfer rate under
given conditions. The investigated factors included elevated degree
of turbulence of the external flow as well as strong acceleration and
turbulization of flow near the wall by surface roughness. The material
in this volume shows that it is possible to control the efficiency of
turbulent transfer when the vortical structure of the turbulent flow is
known."

http://www.cougarlabs.com/cool2.html -

"For convective heat transfer to work well, we need to get the
heat energy out into the flowing coolant. Turbulence will do this
for us."

http://www.ceere.org/beep/docs/FY2002/Turbulent_Flow_in_Enclosure.pdf -

"Comparatively speaking, turbulent flows often lead to higher
transport rate of momentum, energy and mass than laminar flows.
These features are widely made use of in energy systems in industry.
For example, turbulence enhancers such as ribs are added to
cooling systems of turbine blades and microelectronic devices
to create more turbulent motions so that the overall heat transfer
efficiency can be improved."

*TimDaniels*

 

[Timothy Daniels]

Yes, as I've said all along.



This is where you are wrong. You cannot resolve the fact
that "by design" necessarily means a reduction in flow rate.

Not at all. The turbulence can be generated by many means.
Many current designs generate turbulence with a fan.

The goal is to maximize flow rate to the part, and away from
the part. The turbulence that is by design or accident is
only useful when occuring ON the surface of the part being
cooled.

You've mistakenly substitued "occurring" for "impinging".
It matters not at all WHERE the turbulence is GENERATED.
But it does matter that it IMPINGES ON THE PART to be cooled -
directly on the part and enegentically enough to penetrate
and scrub away the part's boundary layer of air.

This is shown in all cooling systems.

Absolute nonsense. Fluid dynamics contradicts you.

A perforated grill over anything hot would help if your theory
were true, but it does not.

It works on my Dell computer! The hard drive is mounted
vertically with its circuit board right behind the holes stamped
in the front of the metal case. Although it would receive the
same amount of cooled air if mounted 6" to 8" back, it is
put right behind the holes - where the turbulence is greatest.
Furthermore, that placement creates more turbulence in the
downstream air, something to be avoided according to you.
But lo and behold, my hard drive and the rest of the system
runs cool, and it has had no failures in 7 1/2 years. Maybe
Dell designers know something about cooling?

Once again you try to fixate on only one variable...

Such as you have fixated on "smooth flow"?

Please consider that many others recognize turbulent flow
for its value in cooling:

http://www.thermaflo.com/crosscut.shtml

"Turbulent air breaks the stagnant air boundary layers
around the pins and, as a result, enhances the heat sink's
thermal performance."

http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=2001

"To induce turbulence within the fins and improve thermal
transmission between the air and metal, Thermalright have
modified the aluminum fins by adding 'proprietary bent winglets'."

http://sound.westhost.com/heatsinks.htm

"Simple convection is not as effective (even for the same rate
of flow of air), because of the "laminar" flow of air (where the
air at the surface of the heatsink moves slower than that further
away). This effect can be easily seen on a windy day. If you stay
close to a wall or other large area (lying on the ground works too),
it will be noticed that it is less windy than out in the open. Exactly
the same thing happens with heatsinks (but on a somewhat
reduced scale). Creating turbulence is an excellent way to defeat
this process, but this requires fans, and fans are noisy."

http://www.fischerelektronik.de/fischer2002/fischer/Fachb-Act_Rep/kuehlkonzepte/KKoneng_e.htm

"The heat transfer towards the flowing air that can be achieved
with plain fins is relatively restricted. The laminar air flow that
emerges is not sufficient to carry off the heat. Therefore, attempts
are being made to improve heat transfer (fins to air) by producing
more turbulent flow using an appropriate fin geometry."

http://www.hilltech.com/products/uv_components/UV_irradiators.html

"Optimizing cooling efficiency in an LIA is achieved by using
a heatsink-based aluminum reflector, where the material has
a high thermal conductivity and the design maximizes the effects
of surface area and turbulence. Within reason, the more surface
area the better the lamp cooling. Also important is turbulence,
because of the skin effect in cooling. A thin layer of air surrounding
a cooling surface acts as a thermal insulator impeding the effect
of forced air-cooling. This layer needs to be disrupted by turbulent
airflow, which can be created by providing irregular fins and fin
geometries."

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6729383.html

"at least some said protrusions affect said streaming of said
fluid so as to enhance the turbulence of said streaming of said
fluid, thereby enhancing convective heat transfer from said
object to said fluid."

http://www.overclockers.com/tips90/ -

"Turbulent air cools better. Say, for sake of argument,
you have a simple tube with a fan in the middle. The fan pulls
air from one side of the tube, and blows into the other. If you
have a hot component on the exhaust side of the fan, it will
be more efficiently cooled than on the intake side.

"This is because the air on the exhaust side of the fan
is more turbulent. For lack of a better explanation, the loops
and whorls of turbulent air moving across the surface pick
up more heat. The effective surface area of the object is
increased. (Actually, it was explained to me by saying the
effective surface area of the air is increased.) The total
volume of airflow remains the same, but turbulent air just
cools better."

http://www.begellhouse.com/books/497d60632054f587,6ddfe1a32b58c789.html -

"Turbulent flow is the most common form of motion of liquids
and gases playing the role of the heat-transfer medium in thermal
systems. The complexity of turbulent flow and the importance of
hydrodynamics and heat transfer in practice inspired continuing
research for methods of efficient heat augmentation by the
Lithuanian Energy Institute. The solution of this problem was directly
linked with the determination of the reaction of flow in the boundary
layer to the effect of various factors and heat transfer rate under
given conditions. The investigated factors included elevated degree
of turbulence of the external flow as well as strong acceleration and
turbulization of flow near the wall by surface roughness. The material
in this volume shows that it is possible to control the efficiency of
turbulent transfer when the vortical structure of the turbulent flow is
known."

http://www.cougarlabs.com/cool2.html -

"For convective heat transfer to work well, we need to get the
heat energy out into the flowing coolant. Turbulence will do this
for us."

http://www.ceere.org/beep/docs/FY2002/Turbulent_Flow_in_Enclosure.pdf -

"Comparatively speaking, turbulent flows often lead to higher
transport rate of momentum, energy and mass than laminar flows.
These features are widely made use of in energy systems in industry.
For example, turbulence enhancers such as ribs are added to
cooling systems of turbine blades and microelectronic devices
to create more turbulent motions so that the overall heat transfer
efficiency can be improved."


*TimDaniels*

 

[Timothy Daniels]

:
It is known that turbulence ON the hot part helps.

Uhh... you mean "impinging on" the hot part.
That means that it doesn't matter where the
turbulence is generated, certainly not just the
"self-turbulence" that you restrictively conceded
in past "discussions".

IF we could have increased turbulence, created prior
to reaching the part such that there was then even more
turbulence ON the hot part, that too would help.

Finally! An admission that turbulence doesn't have
to be generated AT the surface of the part, but that it
could even be generated upstream and still help to cool
the part. CONGRATULATIONS, kornball!

The problem is, we cannot get that increased turbulence
prior to the part without a decrease in airflow.

Let me help you. You mean to say that any turbulence
generated upstream of a part to be cooled must be at
the expense of bulk air flow rate because it takes energy
to generate turbulence, and the energy to generate that
turbulence is at the expense of bulk flow rate.

There are two FALLACIES here:

1) That the bulk air flow rate reduction matters more
than the increase in turbulence, and

2) That all turbulence can only be generated by the
same energy that causes the bulk air flow.


Let's perform a gedanken experiment for 1):

Laminar flow depends on careful placement of the
hot parts. They must be directly in the path of the
flowing air because the nature of laminar flow is
that it does not "spread out" well - it just goes in as
straight a line as it can from entrance to exit. So
it is easy to imagine that a hot part, not placed directly
in the flow, or suffering from deflection of the flow by
another part, would overheat, regardless of the intensity
of the bulk air flow. The introduction of turbulence,
however, would smear and spread the air flow all
around in the case, and some of it would impinge
the hot part, cooling it. But, you would say, "That
turbulence was at the expense of the laminar flow rate!"
But so WHAT? It cooled the part, didn't it?

Furthermore, what proof have you that in the general case,
all increase in cooling by turbulent flow is overcome by
the reduction in cooling by laminar flow?

And furthermore than that, what engineering or scientific
basis do you have in claiming that energy expended to
generate turbulence AT THE PART is any less than the
energy expended to generate turbulence UPSTREAM
of the part?

And even furthermore, there are heatsinks that are
designed such that the air is forced to follow a zig-zag
path between "fingers" so as to increase the turbulence
at fingers immediately downstream. Why not place all
the fingers in rows so that turbulence is minimized?
Doesn't the increased turbulence decrease air flow rate?
Of course it does, but the designers calculated that the
increase in cooling more than compensated for it.

As for 2):

There are other ways to generate turbulence than by
using the translational energy of the flowing air itself
to generate turbulence. You can always just use a
fan that is internal to the case to do that. In fact, that is
exactly what CPU and GPU fans do - they increase
the turbulence - the localized flow, as opposed to
the overall bulk flow - that impinges the hot part's
surface (or extended surface, which is what a heatsink
is). This increase in turbulence is NOT at the expense
of the bulk flow rate, and recent PC designs use the
technique extensively.

This much we see all around us in existing products.

Refutation of your kornball theory are all around you but
you see it not.

*TimDaniels*

 

[kony]

Do you actually understand English?
"And so what if" doesn't concede *anything*.
It's a hypothetical phrase.

Problem is, EVERYTHING you dream up is only hypothetical,
never tested. We're done Tim, no point to this argument.

 

[kony]

"kornball" ignores evidence:


Why, then, do manufacturers of industrial cooling systems
design turbulence production into their systems?

They don't, unless they care not about noise.
Different scenario, different approach to cooling.

 

[kony]

"kornball" gives up:


Are you implying that trubulent air is hard to remove
from the system?

No, rather that it is KNOWN it reduces flow rate.
That means you need more noise to move same amount of air,
but that the increased noise level could INSTEAD more even
more air.

Once again I point out the obvious- that when a system is
overheated, the proven solution is to increase airflow, not
increase turbulence.

There's nothing you can claim that changes this basic and
proven fact.

You will continue to think arguing or posting links somehow
mitigates this plan truth but it does not. Only Tim can't
see direct evidence like everyone else.

 

[kony]

That's not English, kornball.

You're wasting your time Tim.

 

[kony]

Not at all. The turbulence can be generated by many means.
Many current designs generate turbulence with a fan.

Still wasting time.

 

[kony]

Uhh... you mean "impinging on" the hot part.

Trying to restate what I meant is yet again,
wasting time.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

"kornball" continues like a running toilet:

Problem is, EVERYTHING you dream up is only hypothetical,
never tested. We're done Tim, no point to this argument.

You just got through saying:

"I'm done with the thread since you never do anything
but troll and pretend to cover something new that was
already covered multiple times- but never a test."

C'mon, kornball, say it a 3rd time for old times sake -
say you're done. <LOL>

*TimDaniels*