To floppy or not to floppy?

[EDM]

There are ways to install raid drivers without a floppy, but they are
complicated and not much fun. It is much easier just to use a floppy.

Overall, I think floppy drives are still worthwhile.

Agreed. Once again Rod bends over backwards insisting on
a technically-true-but-practically-ridiculous claim. If you want
to know what's really involved with installing custom raid/disk
drivers without a floppy drive, read this:
http://www.msfn.org/board/lofiversion/index.php/t13173.html

or this:

http://www.ntcompatible.com/thread.php?id=25442

 

[Rod Speed]

When you install XP and need to install your raid/hd controller with
the F6 option XP will not accept anything except a floppy (a:drive).

There are easy ways around that.

There are a lot of other cases where a floppy can come in very handy.

Bugger all, actually.

Many things can be handled by CDs or thumb drives on today's MBs, but I always install a floppy
drive for those "other" things.

More fool you. Particularly if you dont even use raid.

 

[Larc]

|
| ...almost have my 1st full machine finished. ...trying to decide on whether to put in a floppy drive. I can easily foresee needing
| the bay that a floppy would occupy for a harddrive instead (removable tray, etc.). From what I gather, the only likely thing that I
| would need a floppy for would be to flash a bios or install a raid driver. I've seen some external USB floppy drives that aren't
| that much more than the internals (which are also cheap). ...don't know if they will work without the OS loaded, however. If not,
| they wouldn't be any good for the above tasks. Could someone let me know if an external USB will work to boot dos from or otherwise
| use with the operating system? ...or if there is some other use for a floppy that I'm overlooking?

Why not? They're inexpensive and there's a chance you may need it. Small
programs such as Memtest86 seem to start faster from a floppy than anything
else. Sure, most of these programs can also work from a CD, but you can't put a
CD in *before* you turn your system on. You have to turn it on, put the CD in,
reboot, and then hit a key when you're asked if you want to boot from the CD.
With a floppy, you can put it in, turn your system on, and then walk away.

It may work the same with a thumbdrive on some systems, but none of mine will
boot from a USB device.

Larc



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[Rod Speed]

Why not? They're inexpensive and there's a chance you may need it.

I'd rather put it in if I ever do need it.

Small programs such as Memtest86 seem to
start faster from a floppy than anything else.

That ignores the unreliability of floppys. No thanks.

Sure, most of these programs can also work from
a CD, but you can't put a CD in *before* you turn your system on.
You have to turn it on, put the CD in, reboot, and then hit a key
when you're asked if you want to boot from the CD.

Most run it on a running system and just reboot with the CD
in the drive to do that. No different to how they would do it
with a floppy, but with the CD being MUCH more reliable.

With a floppy, you can put it in, turn
your system on, and then walk away.

With a CD, you can put it in the drive, reboot, and then walk
away, and be much more likely to have it boot successfully.

It may work the same with a thumbdrive on some
systems, but none of mine will boot from a USB device.

Doesnt need to, just boot the CD instead.

And if you have a clue you'll have got a CD with all those diags on it
and just boot the single CD and select which one you want to run instead
of farting around finding the correct floppy when you want to do a test.

 

[John Weiss]

...almost have my 1st full machine finished. ...trying to decide on
whether to put in a floppy drive. I can easily foresee needing the bay
that a floppy would occupy for a harddrive instead (removable tray, etc.).
From what I gather, the only likely thing that I would need a floppy for
would be to flash a bios or install a raid driver. I've seen some external
USB floppy drives that aren't that much more than the internals (which are
also cheap). ...don't know if they will work without the OS loaded,
however. If not, they wouldn't be any good for the above tasks. Could
someone let me know if an external USB will work to boot dos from or
otherwise use with the operating system? ...or if there is some other use
for a floppy that I'm overlooking?

I'd get a combination floppy/card reader. That way you get the advantages
of both in 1 slot. I have one in my dual Opteron rig. Works fine, every
time!

 

[John Doe]

I still use my floppy drive. The BIOS flash procedure advises
using a boot floppy in case of a power outage.

Sounds familiar, but why is that? Seems that a power outage is a
power outage no matter which media you are updating the BIOS from.

I update the BIOS from within Windows, either with a Windows utility
or via an online update. Thanks probably to a line conditioner
(voltage regulator) my computer never spontaneously restarts these
days and a power outage is rare, so the likelihood it will go down
in the 30 seconds required to update the BIOS is almost nil.

On top of that, my mainboard manufacturer includes a bootable CD
which will restore a corrupted BIOS. I guess there is a special
read-only part of the BIOS which automatically detects a CD and
restore the main BIOS (maybe it seeks the CD only when the BIOS is
corrupted).

No floppy drive and pretty much bulletproof here.

 

[Larry Roberts]

I'd get a combination floppy/card reader. That way you get the advantages
of both in 1 slot. I have one in my dual Opteron rig. Works fine, every
time!

That's actually the best idea. They are not that much more
expensive than a standard floppy.

 

[John Doe]

Why not?

Because a floppy drive isn't necessary? Apparently, the only
exception is for RAID, and you can do that probably the same as
slipstreaming a service pack into Windows XP. Slipstreaming the
service pack happens once and then you forget about it. Maybe
someone else knows, or maybe RAID isn't popular enough for anyone to
research the issue.

They're inexpensive and there's a chance you may need it. Small
programs such as Memtest86 seem to start faster from a floppy than
anything else. Sure, most of these programs can also work from a
CD, but you can't put a CD in *before* you turn your system on.
You have to turn it on, put the CD in, reboot, and then hit a key
when you're asked if you want to boot from the CD.

That is contrary to my recent experience. I burned the Memtest86 ISO
file to a CD. Put the CD in the drive and restarted Windows. On the
reboot, without the labor of pressing any key, Memtest86 just
started testing. Then I removed the CD and restarted to get back
into Windows.

My BIOS boot sequence is CD first and then HDD. If I recall, don't
you get stuck if an unbootable floppy is in the drive? An unbootable
CD doesn't cause that problem here.

 

[Rod Speed]

Sounds familiar, but why is that?

Basically because the better bios leave enough of a
bios so that if the flash of the bulk of the bios fails
for whatever reason, the minimal bios that doesnt get
overwritten can still do the flash again from a floppy.

Seems that a power outage is a power outage no
matter which media you are updating the BIOS from.

Sure, but the minimal bios is obviously programmed
to attempt to do the flash again from a specific source.

I update the BIOS from within Windows, either with a Windows
utility or via an online update. Thanks probably to a line conditioner
(voltage regulator) my computer never spontaneously restarts these
days and a power outage is rare, so the likelihood it will go down
in the 30 seconds required to update the BIOS is almost nil.

On top of that, my mainboard manufacturer includes a bootable CD
which will restore a corrupted BIOS. I guess there is a special read-only
part of the BIOS which automatically detects a CD and restore the
main BIOS (maybe it seeks the CD only when the BIOS is corrupted).

Some dont have that but can restart the flash from a floppy.

 

[John Doe]

It's a dif'rent strokes thing.. Myself, I use a DOS6.22 bootable
floppy every week to run Ghost image backups, also to directly
access my system files when e.g. a Windows update screws them up,
or I need to forcably delete viruses, malware, rootkits etc etc.

Here, the image backup stuff is done from a disk manager in Windows
with the work being done on the reboot. Both of my disk managers
come with bootable CDs which are used on rare occasion when needed.
I don't manipulate files from DOS anymore. When Windows is restored,
all of the system files are restored.

However, I can still hear the grinding of the floppy drive mechanism,
in my head.

 

[John Doe]

That's actually the best idea.

Maybe if it weren't for the fact that a card reader is solid-state
and a floppy drive is mechanical. I don't see the commonality.

They are not that much more expensive than a standard floppy.

That's hardly a reason to buy something my computer doesn't need.

 

[Edward W. Thompson]

If it's small enough to fit on a floppy, you can email it faster.

WRONG.

FLoppies are nowhere near as robust as CDs. Damp, cold, heat, any
magnetic source, the soft material inside them bobbling or the head
alignment between one drive and another can cause them to fail.
They're nowhere near as fast for reading either.

Obviously our experiences are different. I have never managed to
damage a floppy but have come across many CDs that are unreadable due
to damage.
I will concede that reading is about even but CDs are certainly not
faster.

 

[John Doe]

I will concede that reading is about even but CDs are certainly
not faster.

That is inept.

 

[Ed Medlin]

There are easy ways around that.

Sure there are. But I would rather just use the floppy. Much easier for me
and a ton easier for the 'average Joe'.

Bugger all, actually.

I run a few progs that load from dos.........Sure, I can run most from a
thumb drive but not all.

More fool you. Particularly if you dont even use raid.

I use 3 raid arrays for video work and non-critical storage. Working from
one array to another is faster, even you have to admit that. I don't want a
pissing contest Ron. All I am saying is that I want the floppy in my system
just for the convenience, nothing else. To each his own.


Ed

 

[Conor]

Obviously our experiences are different. I have never managed to
damage a floppy but have come across many CDs that are unreadable due
to damage.

I've had loads die on me over the years.

I will concede that reading is about even but CDs are certainly not
faster.

HUH?
Floppy:

1 minute 20 seconds to read 1.4MB.

Typical 52x CDROM running in PIO Mode 4:

16MB/s or less than 1/4 of a second to read 1.4MB.

--
Conor

I'm really a nice guy. If I had friends, they would tell you.

Earn commission on online purchases, £2.50 just for signing up:
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[Rod Speed]

Sure there are. But I would rather just use the floppy. Much easier for me

Thats arguable. You really need to slipstream the original XP CD with SP2
etc and you might as well include the raid drivers if you actually use raid.

And many recent systems dont need the raid drivers
to be loaded very early in the install anymore.

and a ton easier for the 'average Joe'.

I doubt too many of those ever do an XP install, they by the system preinstalled.

I run a few progs that load from dos.........

Most dont. And those that do use a decent bootable CD that
allows you to select the dos app from a menu with that CD.

Sure, I can run most from a thumb drive but not all.

Its only the real dinosaurs that cant boot a CD and thats fixable even with those.

I use 3 raid arrays for video work and non-critical storage.

And few bother with raid.

Working from one array to another is faster, even you have to admit that.

Few do that sort of thing.

I don't want a pissing contest Ron. All I am saying is that I want the floppy in my system just
for the convenience, nothing else.

And I was pointing out that you are overstating the need for a floppy.

To each his own.

Its in fact rather more complicated than that, most obviously with
the dos apps where it makes a lot more sense to have a decent
bootable CD instead of farting around with unreliable floppys.

 

[Larc]

| My BIOS boot sequence is CD first and then HDD. If I recall, don't
| you get stuck if an unbootable floppy is in the drive? An unbootable
| CD doesn't cause that problem here.

Nope! An unbootable floppy will be ignored to the same extent an unbootable CD
will. But I don't leave either in my computer when I shut down. I don't want
to hear a CD spinning when I boot up any more than I want to hear the system
polling the floppy drive.

I have extended experience with systems both with and without a floppy drive and
have learned firsthand it's more convenient to have a floppy drive than not to
have one. While a CD can do practically anything a floppy can, there are too
many times when the CD amounts to a "workaround." When I decide I want to boot
initially to something such as Memtest, I don't want to have to turn the system
on first just to put a disc in.

Is it possible to get along without a floppy drive? Of course. It's possible
to get along without a lot of things we're used to that make life a little
easier.

Larc



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[John Doe]

I have extended experience with systems both with and without a
floppy drive

Modern personal computers don't include a floppy drive.

and have learned firsthand it's more convenient to have a floppy
drive than not to have one.

Things change, maybe you can too.

While a CD can do practically anything a floppy can,

Like take up space.

there are too many times when the CD amounts to a "workaround."
Baloney.

When I decide I want to boot initially to something such as
Memtest, I don't want to have to turn the system on first just to
put a disc in.

That's silly IMO.

Is it possible to get along without a floppy drive?

Obviously it's not only possible but it's better, considering the
fact all of the major personal computer manufacturers don't include
a floppy drive.

Of course. It's possible to get along without a lot of things
we're used to that make life a little easier.

Since I don't intend to use RAID, a floppy drive can't make life
easier for me. Anyone who uses RAID is probably more than
technically inclined enough to make a one-time adjustment that
allows loading RAID drivers during a Windows install without a
floppy drive.

Floppy drives are dead.

We are living in the age of CD drives, e-mail, instant messaging,
and USB flash drives.

 

[ToolPackinMama]

I wouldn't build a PC without a FDD. They are still, on rare occasions,
very useful.

They are only eight bucks. What's the big deal?

 

[John Doe]

I wouldn't build a PC without a FDD. They are still, on rare
occasions, very useful.

Like what?

New computers don't include floppy disk drives probably because they
have those extremely functional USB ports on the case front.

They are only eight bucks. What's the big deal?

So you throw everything that costs less than ten dollars into your
computer?

Welcome to the modern world.