The world shudders as Win98 gets support reprieve

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XFree86 was not compatible with digital flat-panel monitors prior to
v4.3.0

Flat-panel monitors are relatively new. If you buy hardware which is
less old than a recent distro, this sort of thing can happen simply
because a lot of companies do not write drivers for Linux and you have
to wait for someone in the community to do so.

Case in point: Nvidia. They've got new boards coming out every five
minutes, it seems like. There's no way Linux can keep up.

On the other hand, it is likely that an older driver for the same make
might drive the board at some lower capability. Then you can wait for
a new driver to take advantage of the full capability.
The only exception was MEPIS
Linux, which worked out-of-the-box because it supplies the non-free
nVidia driver instead of the free "nv" driver.

NVidia tends to be a problem, again because even though they actually
write drivers for Linux, it's an afterthought and it seems they write
it in such a way that it's reliability varies from distro to distro.
That's an NVidia problem more than it is Linux - although of course if
you want your NVidia board to work, it becomes a Linux problem.

The answer, again, don't buy a machine with the absolute latest
hardware and expect it to work flawlessly when there are no drivers
for the Linux distro you've obtained. Get it to work as much as
possible, then wait for an updated driver.

And always get the absolute latest distro you can. I see people
trying to install distros from a year or two ago on cutting edge
hardware - that's obviously going to be a problem. I installed Red
Hat V7.3 (from back in May 2002) on hardware I bought in November 2002
- which, however, was pretty standard no-name clone stuff from a local
store. Everything worked fine from day one, once I switched from the
OSS to ALSA and went through the CUPS configuration process and
figured out how to configure the NIC card for my DSL (I understand
Mandrake will detect a NIC hooked up to a DSL and configure it
automatically, supposedly, now).

And the latter was a problem because I failed to read the Red Hat
docs, and relied on older documentation on setting up DSL - after all
that, I discovered Red Hat had command line scripts set up to do it by
just responding to some prompts. Read the distro documentation,
especially the release notes and distro specific stuff!

And Mandrake and SUSE are better at detecting hardware than Red Hat.
I found the solution on, of all places, an OpenBSD webforum. Let that
serve as a cautionary tale to anyone who limits their Google searches for
Linux problems by including "Linux" in their search terms. Sometimes you
can find solutions from sources that deal with various UNIX-like
variants.

Good point. Be prepared to search through ten or twenty pages of
Google results as well - don't limit yourself to the first couple of
pages.
I had a completely patched, up-to-date, working OS in a
half-hour, with only one reboot required. Compare that to the 40 minutes
needed to reinstall WinXP, then the 20 minutes to reinstall drivers, then
the 30 minutes to download and install SP1 and all the subsequent patches
-- about 1.5 hours with at least eight reboots, for me.

Ah, yes, the famous Windows error message:

Error 6969: Not enough reboots. The system will now reboot.
But that's only if you get lucky. Chances are at least 50/50 that
something or another won't just work,

That percentage is way too high. The odds are probably closer to 90%
that the install will be flawless. The usual things that cause
problems are oddball or integrated NICs, oddball or integrated sound
cards or chips, new USB devices, and the like. And the video card
since X can be hard to configure if it's not a "standard" card.

When I installed Red Hat 7.3, I knew beforehand that I would have to
screw around setting up the ALSA sound system and the CUPS printer
system to get my Avance 97 integrated sound chip working and my Epson
Stylus C60 working. I knew in advance - at least with regard to the
Epson - because I checked www.linux-printing.org for compatibility
before I bought the printer.
IMO, it isn't worth beginning to explore Linux
on the PC unless you want to learn something -- about your computer,
about operating systems, about how everything works together.

It's not entirely necessary, depending on what you want to use the
machine for, but it does help if you're WILLING to learn.
As for me, I've decided to take the slow-and-steady approach and install
Slackware Linux, which from everything I've read is among the best
distros to learn on. I'm not even going to worry about getting X working
for a while -- I plan on spending some time practicing with bash, vi, and
maybe even (gasp, choke!) emacs before I worry about a GUI.

Although I learned UNIX on the command line over the last year or so,
I would not recommend being command line bound in learning Linux.
Linux is intended to be a modern OS with a GUI. A lot of stuff that
used to have to be done from the command line is now done with GUI
front-ends to the command line tools. When I'm in a hurry and want to
do something NOW and don't want to take the time to learn a GUI tool,
I drop back to the command line. But my goal is to install all the
stuff available that makes that unnecessary. Then I'll use the
command line where it's really useful - in scripts that automate
things.
 
Flat-panel monitors are relatively new. If you buy hardware which is
less old than a recent distro, this sort of thing can happen simply
because a lot of companies do not write drivers for Linux and you have
to wait for someone in the community to do so.

Case in point: Nvidia. They've got new boards coming out every five
minutes, it seems like. There's no way Linux can keep up.

On the other hand, it is likely that an older driver for the same make
might drive the board at some lower capability. Then you can wait for
a new driver to take advantage of the full capability.


NVidia tends to be a problem, again because even though they actually
write drivers for Linux, it's an afterthought and it seems they write
it in such a way that it's reliability varies from distro to distro.
That's an NVidia problem more than it is Linux - although of course if
you want your NVidia board to work, it becomes a Linux problem.

The answer, again, don't buy a machine with the absolute latest
hardware and expect it to work flawlessly when there are no drivers
for the Linux distro you've obtained. Get it to work as much as
possible, then wait for an updated driver.

And always get the absolute latest distro you can. I see people
trying to install distros from a year or two ago on cutting edge
hardware - that's obviously going to be a problem. I installed Red
Hat V7.3 (from back in May 2002) on hardware I bought in November 2002
- which, however, was pretty standard no-name clone stuff from a local
store. Everything worked fine from day one, once I switched from the
OSS to ALSA and went through the CUPS configuration process and
figured out how to configure the NIC card for my DSL (I understand
Mandrake will detect a NIC hooked up to a DSL and configure it
automatically, supposedly, now).

And the latter was a problem because I failed to read the Red Hat
docs, and relied on older documentation on setting up DSL - after all
that, I discovered Red Hat had command line scripts set up to do it by
just responding to some prompts. Read the distro documentation,
especially the release notes and distro specific stuff!

And Mandrake and SUSE are better at detecting hardware than Red Hat.


Good point. Be prepared to search through ten or twenty pages of
Google results as well - don't limit yourself to the first couple of
pages.


Ah, yes, the famous Windows error message:

Error 6969: Not enough reboots. The system will now reboot.


That percentage is way too high. The odds are probably closer to 90%
that the install will be flawless. The usual things that cause
problems are oddball or integrated NICs, oddball or integrated sound
cards or chips, new USB devices, and the like. And the video card
since X can be hard to configure if it's not a "standard" card.

When I installed Red Hat 7.3, I knew beforehand that I would have to
screw around setting up the ALSA sound system and the CUPS printer
system to get my Avance 97 integrated sound chip working and my Epson
Stylus C60 working. I knew in advance - at least with regard to the
Epson - because I checked www.linux-printing.org for compatibility
before I bought the printer.


It's not entirely necessary, depending on what you want to use the
machine for, but it does help if you're WILLING to learn.


Although I learned UNIX on the command line over the last year or so,
I would not recommend being command line bound in learning Linux.
Linux is intended to be a modern OS with a GUI. A lot of stuff that
used to have to be done from the command line is now done with GUI
front-ends to the command line tools. When I'm in a hurry and want to
do something NOW and don't want to take the time to learn a GUI tool,
I drop back to the command line. But my goal is to install all the
stuff available that makes that unnecessary. Then I'll use the
command line where it's really useful - in scripts that automate
things.

Good points Steve, and Mandrake 9.0 discovered all hardware that I had
on the original install. DSL was a breeze. I also had no problems in
installing an Epson USB printer later.

I like to use the command line for untarring/un-gzipping, as well as
ls-la and ps-aux. Also for shutdown -h now.

Ted
e-mail modified, take the ** out to reply!

Regards, TW

kilocycles***@***yahoo.com
 
Flat-panel monitors are relatively new. If you buy hardware which is
less old than a recent distro, this sort of thing can happen simply
because a lot of companies do not write drivers for Linux and you have
to wait for someone in the community to do so.

The first person I knew who bought one did so at least five years ago,
but I believe it uses an analog rather than digital connection. Digital
FP monitors may be newer, but I've had mine for well over one year and it
wasn't listed as a brand new model then. And the current version of
XFree86 (which does support digital FP monitors) was released last
February.
Case in point: Nvidia. They've got new boards coming out every five
minutes, it seems like. There's no way Linux can keep up.

I don't have an NVidia board, I have an NVidia video card -- again,
supported by Linux and for which there is are two drivers, the free "nv"
and the non-free NVidia.
NVidia tends to be a problem, again because even though they actually
write drivers for Linux, it's an afterthought and it seems they write
it in such a way that it's reliability varies from distro to distro.
That's an NVidia problem more than it is Linux - although of course if
you want your NVidia board to work, it becomes a Linux problem.

No, it's not an NVidia problem, it's a problem with XFree86 and the "nv"
driver. The NVidia driver supplied by NVidia works perfectly. The
problem with the "nv" driver is that the config file needs to be modified
in such a way that is not completely documented on the XFree86 website.
And that, I think, is one of the biggest hurdles to getting going with
most (if not all) distros -- the lack of accurate, updated documentation.
The current pace of Linux development is such that the documentation
seems to be always at least one step behind and full of little holes that
haven't been filled in yet. Experienced users probably have a pretty
good sense of what to look for when something doesn't work as expected --
they know what worked before. But for newbies -- it gets very
frustrating when you "RTFM," follow it's instructions precisely, and it
still doesn't work because the "FM" hasn't been fixed yet.
The answer, again, don't buy a machine with the absolute latest
hardware and expect it to work flawlessly when there are no drivers
for the Linux distro you've obtained. Get it to work as much as
possible, then wait for an updated driver.

I wouldn't expect it to, but that's not what happened in the example I
gave.
That percentage is way too high. The odds are probably closer to 90%
that the install will be flawless. The usual things that cause
problems are oddball or integrated NICs, oddball or integrated sound
cards or chips, new USB devices, and the like. And the video card
since X can be hard to configure if it's not a "standard" card.

You're probably right if you're just talking about installs -- all but
one of the distros I've tried *installed* just fine on my computer, but
with no working GUI until I figured out what I needed to do to get one.
But I don't think anywhere near 90% of Linux newbies find that everything
works perfectly after installing. There are too many variables.
Although I learned UNIX on the command line over the last year or so,
I would not recommend being command line bound in learning Linux.
Linux is intended to be a modern OS with a GUI. A lot of stuff that
used to have to be done from the command line is now done with GUI
front-ends to the command line tools.

Not in Slackware! :-)


--
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Michael M. ~~ (e-mail address removed) ~~ New York City, NY USA |
| "No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely |
| under conditions of absolute reality;..." --S. Jackson |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
 
The first person I knew who bought one did so at least five years ago,
but I believe it uses an analog rather than digital connection. Digital
FP monitors may be newer, but I've had mine for well over one year and it
wasn't listed as a brand new model then. And the current version of
XFree86 (which does support digital FP monitors) was released last
February.

But do the last releases of the distros use that version of XFree86 (I
haven't checked)?
I don't have an NVidia board, I have an NVidia video card

I mean "card" of course.
supported by Linux and for which there is are two drivers, the free "nv"
and the non-free NVidia.
Right.

No, it's not an NVidia problem, it's a problem with XFree86 and the "nv"
driver. The NVidia driver supplied by NVidia works perfectly.

Not according to comments here
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=14
but in general you may be right. Also from what I've heard, the
manufacturer's driver is better than the free one - which is not too
surprising, although the opposite is occasionally true for some
things.
And that, I think, is one of the biggest hurdles to getting going with
most (if not all) distros -- the lack of accurate, updated documentation.
The current pace of Linux development is such that the documentation
seems to be always at least one step behind and full of little holes that
haven't been filled in yet.

That IS true. A LOT of Linux documentation on the Web is out of date,
at least as far as how things are done today. I spent a lot of time
configuring my DSL NIC card manually based on a old magazine article
and the DSL HOWTO and not reading the Red Hat docs and realizing they
had scripts set up to prompt me through the process.
You're probably right if you're just talking about installs -- all but
one of the distros I've tried *installed* just fine on my computer, but
with no working GUI until I figured out what I needed to do to get one.
But I don't think anywhere near 90% of Linux newbies find that everything
works perfectly after installing. There are too many variables.

True, installs tend to go well, but there's almost always something to
tweak or something that you need to do extra work (even if it is in a
GUI) to get working - like configuring CUPS with your printer or ALSA
for the sound card. This does need to be more automatic.
Not in Slackware! :-)

True!

Which is why I've shied away from Slackware!
 
But do the last releases of the distros use that version of XFree86 (I
haven't checked)?

From what I can tell, it's a mixed bag. Many distros do use the latest
XFree86, some don't yet. After my pleasant experience with MEPIS Linux,
I was interested in trying plain Debian, but that being what it is,
"Woody" of course doesn't use XFree86 v4.3.0 -- no where near it. Not
even Sarge includes the current version. I had a chat with a guy at the
Debian booth at the recent LinuxWorld, who said I'd have to grab the
latest version from experimental packages. Maybe I could try a backport,
I'm not sure -- haven't really looked into it yet. I bought a Sarge
installer disc for all of $1, anyway, as well as a Debian t-shirt. :-)
Not according to comments here
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=14
but in general you may be right. Also from what I've heard, the
manufacturer's driver is better than the free one - which is not too
surprising, although the opposite is occasionally true for some
things.

I meant the NVidia driver worked perfectly for me -- I've read about
others having problems with one or more versions. As I understand it,
the main advantage of the non-free driver is that it enables 3D support,
while the free driver does not.
True, installs tend to go well, but there's almost always something to
tweak or something that you need to do extra work (even if it is in a
GUI) to get working - like configuring CUPS with your printer or ALSA
for the sound card. This does need to be more automatic.

That, I suppose, is where the "newbie-friendly" distros come in.
True!

Which is why I've shied away from Slackware!

My presumption, based almost entirely on what I've read and very little
on personal experience, is that Slackware is the easiest distro to learn
basic Linux administration and configuration on, in part because it lacks
various configuration tools that are specific to each of various other
distros. Slackware is built on and operates under the KISS (Keep It
Simple, Stupid) philosophy, and thus has a remarkably uncluttered basic
file system that (from the docs) seems to me to be a lot easier to grasp
than other distros with more GUI-oriented tools and more comprehensive
(some might say "intrusive") package management systems. It is said by
many to be the "most UNIX-like" of all the major distros. I guess my
reasons for deciding to try to learn on Slackware are summed up best by
this quote from Distrowatch:

"Perhaps the best characteristic of this distribution I have heard is
this: If you need help with your Linux box, find a Slackware user. He is
more likely to fix the problem than a user familiar with any other
distribution."
http://www.distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major


--
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Michael M. ~~ (e-mail address removed) ~~ New York City, NY USA |
| "No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely |
| under conditions of absolute reality;..." --S. Jackson |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
 
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