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Susan said:
"not a freeware in the purest sense"
"nagware rather than freeware"
"the grey region"
Click to expand...

I agree with those characterizations.
that it's okay to use Total Commander without paying for it amounts to
advocating Warez.
Click to expand...

No, now you crossing the line into a completely different are. Warez
are commercial programs you need a crack or a serial to use. Warez is
stolen software.

Total Commander is not anywhere near warez. Total Commander can be
freely downloaded from the author's site
www.ghisler.com and can be used without any cracks or serials.

You just have to do an extra click every time you start it, which is
not so annoying if you let it run all the time and only need to
restart it when you re-boot.

If it is commercial or not depends on the laws in the country you live
in.
If there is a law in your country that says you have to pay for a
program like this then it is a commercial program.

In my country we have the opposite law. You can continue to use a
program you can download freely and and which keeps on working forever
like Total Commander does.
The motivation for that law was that nobody should be fooled or tricked
into start using a program and then be hit by hefty bills some time
later when he or his children continues to use the program after a
certain time period. If it can be downloaded freely and keeps working
it is by law freeware. If authors want to get paid they need to make
sure it is impossible to use the program without doing something
illegaly, like using a crack or a stolen serial.

So in my country TC is a freeware program of the nagware type.

Considering that it is such an extremely valuable program, as the
leading and unsurpassed file manager, and that the nag factor is so
small, like the ad line in Foxit pdf reader, it should be considered as
a very valuable freeware (nagware) program, like Foxit pdf reader.

If you live in a country where such programs are protected by the law,
if there is such a country, the situation is, of course different.

Total Commander will also often be mentioned in acf for a couple of
other totally legitimate reasons.

We recently had a long discussion about norton ghost. If there is some
freeware that have all the features of norton ghost was the issue. The
answer after much debating was negative, there is no freeware program
which has all the valuable features of norton ghost. Norton Ghost is
the best program in its category, and all other programs in that
category has to be compared to the leading program for an open and
serious discussion.

We could have a similar discussion about file managers. The issue is
if any freeware file manager has all the valuable features of Total
Commander.
The answer will be negative in such a discussion too.
The nearest freeware equivalent is Free Commander, which tries to
incorporate more of the features of TC but still is far behind.

Another legitimate reason to mention Total Commander is the enormous
amount of freeware addons and plugins available for TC.
These freeware programs that work as addons for Total Commander can
freely be recommended in acf, just like freeware additions to other
programs, commercial or not.
 
Roger said:
Susan Bugher wrote:



I agree with those characterizations.


No, now you crossing the line into a completely different are. Warez
are commercial programs you need a crack or a serial to use. Warez is
stolen software.
Click to expand...

And if you use Total Commander w/o paying after thirty days, you are
using stolen software. Hacked keys, serial numbers or licenses... they
all have the same legitimacy.
Total Commander is not anywhere near warez... You just have to do an
extra click every time you start it,
Click to expand...

Bypassing the request for paying, as outlined in TC's license.
In my country we have the opposite law. You can continue to use a
program you can download freely and and which keeps on working
forever like Total Commander does. The motivation for that law was
that nobody should be fooled or tricked
Click to expand...

So, in other words, you're advocating sticking to the "letter of the
law" and ignoring the spirit. Unless you're asserting that TC's
publisher is attempting to fool or trick.

In the end, Roger, your rationalization is just that. A meritless
defense of moral relativism based on /the letter/ of your country's law.
Or, did they intend for your citizens to break license agreements?
There are other alternatives to refusing a publisher's good-faith
requests: use a different application.

Whatever your country's law, I doubt its intent is to screw business by
empowering free-loaders.

Using TC beyond the 30-day trial may not constitute "warez." But that's
a semantic quibble. The question is: do you think you've the right to
steal TC?

-Craig
 
Craig said:
Using TC beyond the 30-day trial may not constitute "warez." But that's
a semantic quibble. The question is: do you think you've the right to
steal TC?
Click to expand...

I didn't "steal it". I just use it.

And who bothers to read all license text and stuff?
If it works it works, and Total Commander works better than most other
programs in the world.

If the author is a moralist and says stuff like "using TC more than 30
days without paying is stealing" I say "property is theft".
And he is not starving.
I bet his private fortune is at least 100 000 times bigger than mine.

For people who are richer than me, and who honors the capitalist
concept of property rights, and maybe even are moralists, the situation
might be more complicated.

For me the world is very simple. I work all I can for the rights of the
poor and opressed people in the world, who have no property, who are
bullied, who are locked into factories where they sew the clothes, or
make shoes, footballs, and weave mats for rich people in USA and
Switzerland. People who are opressed with the help of concepts like
"property rights" (including copyrights and patents). And I use all
machines and programs I need to fulfill that purpose, including taking
used computers from garbage containers, fixing a broken keyboard which
I just spent 2 hours doing, using all the programs I need and which I
can get my hands on without doing something directly lillegal in my own
country, etc..

Read my other posts on usenet and you will see that I work all I can to
abolish capitalism, the creationist culture, the creation of men, the
gender roles, the traditional values, the totalitarian rule in social
life which makes individualism and free thought a joke that look real
only for the rich.

In this world only angry men are free, and their rule for thousands of
years, our history of slavery, violence, social domination, torture,
wars and wifebeating is nothing to be proud of.
 
Roger said:
Craig wrote:




I didn't "steal it". I just use it.

And who bothers to read all license text and stuff?
If it works it works, and Total Commander works better than most other
programs in the world.

If the author is a moralist and says stuff like "using TC more than 30
days without paying is stealing" I say "property is theft".
And he is not starving.
I bet his private fortune is at least 100 000 times bigger than mine.

For people who are richer than me, and who honors the capitalist
concept of property rights, and maybe even are moralists, the situation
might be more complicated.

For me the world is very simple. I work all I can for the rights of the
poor and opressed people in the world, who have no property, who are
bullied, who are locked into factories where they sew the clothes, or
make shoes, footballs, and weave mats for rich people in USA and
Switzerland. People who are opressed with the help of concepts like
"property rights" (including copyrights and patents). And I use all
machines and programs I need to fulfill that purpose, including taking
used computers from garbage containers, fixing a broken keyboard which
I just spent 2 hours doing, using all the programs I need and which I
can get my hands on without doing something directly lillegal in my own
country, etc..

Read my other posts on usenet and you will see that I work all I can to
abolish capitalism, the creationist culture, the creation of men, the
gender roles, the traditional values, the totalitarian rule in social
life which makes individualism and free thought a joke that look real
only for the rich.

In this world only angry men are free, and their rule for thousands of
years, our history of slavery, violence, social domination, torture,
wars and wifebeating is nothing to be proud of.
Click to expand...
 
So in my country TC is a freeware program of the nagware type.
Click to expand...

So in your country a contract is worthless, is what you're saying. I
somehow doubt that a country that has internet access has no contract
law.
 
Al said:
So in your country a contract is worthless, is what you're saying. I
somehow doubt that a country that has internet access has no contract
law.
Click to expand...

Clicking on buttons on internet doesn't count as signing a contract in
my country, otherwise I am sure we have similar laws as other
capitalist states.

Not that I am very interested in defending the legal mechanisms in my
capitalist country, but at least we have made it impossible for anybody
sitting at your computer, yourself or your children to get into
financial trouble without knowing exactly what they are doing, or
without using a credit card, for example.

Check out the laws in your own country, you may have similar laws there
too.

That's why nagware authors often use moralistic ways to talk to the
users, because they have no legal way to demand payment in most
countries.
 
Craig wrote:
Click to expand...
I didn't "steal it". I just use it.
Click to expand...

If someone took items of yours, and used them without your permission,
then would you consider that "stealing" ? I suspect you would. Using
programs without the authors permission is also stealing. The point
Craig was making.
And who bothers to read all license text and stuff?
Click to expand...

People who respect the work done by software authors. If you spent eg.
5 years writing a program then wouldn't you have a right to then sell
it ? Or don't you think software authors should sell what they write ?
If it works it works, and Total Commander works better than most other
programs in the world.
Click to expand...
If the author is a moralist and says stuff like "using TC more than 30
days without paying is stealing" I say "property is theft".
And he is not starving.
I bet his private fortune is at least 100 000 times bigger than mine.
Click to expand...

Stealing from a pauper, or a rich man, is still stealing.

< snip >

Regards, John.
 
Roger said:
Susan Bugher wrote:
Click to expand...
If it is commercial or not depends on the laws in the country you live
in.
If there is a law in your country that says you have to pay for a
program like this then it is a commercial program.

In my country we have the opposite law. You can continue to use a
program you can download freely and and which keeps on working forever
like Total Commander does.
The motivation for that law was that nobody should be fooled or tricked
into start using a program and then be hit by hefty bills some time
later when he or his children continues to use the program after a
certain time period. If it can be downloaded freely and keeps working
it is by law freeware. If authors want to get paid they need to make
sure it is impossible to use the program without doing something
illegaly, like using a crack or a stolen serial.

So in my country TC is a freeware program of the nagware type.
Click to expand...
If you live in a country where such programs are protected by the law,
if there is such a country, the situation is, of course different.
Click to expand...

The EULA tells us whether or not a program is Shareware. If a country
has a law that voids the requirement for payment that simply makes the
requirement for payment unenforceable in that country. Such a law does
not turn Shareware into Freeware. I just lets residents of that country
ignore the payment part of the license agreement with impunity. . .

Susan
--
Posted to alt.comp.freeware
Search alt.comp.freeware (or read it online):
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:alt.comp.freeware
Pricelessware & ACF: http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org (not maintained)
 
Roger said:
Clicking on buttons on internet doesn't count as signing a contract in
my country, otherwise I am sure we have similar laws as other
capitalist states.

Not that I am very interested in defending the legal mechanisms in my
capitalist country, but at least we have made it impossible for anybody
sitting at your computer, yourself or your children to get into
financial trouble without knowing exactly what they are doing, or
without using a credit card, for example.

Check out the laws in your own country, you may have similar laws there
too.
Click to expand...

The US has a law aimed at postal scammers. Scumbags used to send
greeting cards etc. etc. and then demand payment or the return of the
cards. The law now states that unsolicited mailings of this type are a
gift. No payment required, no need to return the package.

How-some-ever, we're not talking about a scammer ATM. We're talking
about the author of a highly regarded software program who makes the
requirement for payment very clear up front.
That's why nagware authors often use moralistic ways to talk to the
users, because they have no legal way to demand payment in most
countries.
Click to expand...

IMO most authors could easily add a time limitation to their trial
programs. IOW some authors *prefer* to use the honor system and trust
people to pay. Authors who include a time (or number of uses) limitation
may do so because they feel their trust was abused. . .

Susan
--
Posted to alt.comp.freeware
Search alt.comp.freeware (or read it online):
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:alt.comp.freeware
Pricelessware & ACF: http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org (not maintained)
 
If the author is a moralist and says stuff like "using TC more than 30
days without paying is stealing" I say "property is theft".
Click to expand...

He's not a moralist - he owns the software and that's his condition
for your using it. By using it you're agreeing to that condition -
then violating that agreement.
 
Al Klein wrote:
Click to expand...
Clicking on buttons on internet doesn't count as signing a contract in
my country
Click to expand...

Then, as I said, in your country contracts have no meaning. In the
real world, if I own something (and the real world recognizes property
rights and intellectual property) and set conditions under which you
can use it, if you use it you're *legally* agreeing to my conditions.
And, in those countries (the ones to which we apply the appellation
"civilized") I can sue you, and win the suit, if you violate the
agreement you entered into by using the "property".
otherwise I am sure we have similar laws as other capitalist states.
Click to expand...

Since capitalism runs on contracts, you can't. You can't have the top
floors of a building if you don't have the foundation.
Check out the laws in your own country, you may have similar laws there
too.
Click to expand...

We have a law that says that if you violate a contract you freely
entered into (and you were adult, sane and competent at the time),
you're liable for damages. So does almost every country. (Those that
don't have citizens who don't have that much property to worry about.)
 
IMO most authors could easily add a time limitation to their trial
programs. IOW some authors *prefer* to use the honor system and trust
people to pay. Authors who include a time (or number of uses) limitation
may do so because they feel their trust was abused. . .
Click to expand...

Susan, we just had a discussion about this, in the past few days, on a
programming forum. The consensus was that about 0.001% of shareware
is paid for. (And only about 5% of $$ware is paid for.) When it
comes to software, the trust of ALL authors has been abused - for
decades. Ever since Andrew Fluegelman invented "shareware".
 
Susan said:
The EULA tells us whether or not a program is Shareware. If a country
has a law that voids the requirement for payment that simply makes the
requirement for payment unenforceable in that country. Such a law does
not turn Shareware into Freeware. I just lets residents of that country
ignore the payment part of the license agreement with impunity. . .
Click to expand...

When the spanish invaders took over south america they did not improve
the land, they took power over it.

Power is the base for ownership, not "making improvements".

After the invasion they forced the indians to build plantations, gold
mines, etc.
Then the spaniards pointed to the improvements they had made, (had
forced the indians to make), and used those improvements to justify
their power.

That's how capitalism works in all the world, it is just easier to show

how it works in the south american example.

The rich invented and enforce the exchange principle, those who do not
work shall not eat either, exchanges are often made by contract, and
the rich are very keen on enforcing contracts, as they enforce the
property rights, to defend the land they once stole and made us all
into wage slaves.

They even trained a class of special contract enforcers and contract
explainers called lawyers, and these lawyers had daughters, and there
we are..

Trace you intellectual heritage back to the ones who originally stole
the whole land, with the magic phrase, "I hereby claim this land in the
name of the king of Spain", or some similar procedure.

Guess where I suggest those eula writers should stuff their eulas.

In the name of the opressed people of this earth I hereby declare that
we should not chop the heads off all lawyers and property owners and
kings and popes and other pompous idiots who have tortured us for
thousands of years. Instead we should forgive and forget, and assume
that those idiots who surpressed and mistreated us where just as much
victims of the history as ourselves, the victims of their rule.

We wouldn't have time anyway to chop off heads and build prisons and
mistreat people, no matter how much they deserve it. We have much more
important and better things to do, to start living as free people, free
at last, free to do whatever we want to do, with no property owners, no
money system, no contracts, nobody who tells anybody else what to do.

The program for the future of this planet.

http://wikihost.org/wikis/program/
 
And if you use Total Commander w/o paying after thirty days, you
are using stolen software. Hacked keys, serial numbers or
licenses... they all have the same legitimacy.
Click to expand...


Am I missing something in this rather drawn out thread? If you use a
legit version of Total Commander then you press 1,2 or 3 on the nag
box to enter the program.

There is no cracking, warez, serialz, hackz, patches, loaders or
anything underhand like any of that. You just access it as intended
by the author.
 
Susan, we just had a discussion about this, in the past few days,
on a programming forum. The consensus was that about 0.001% of
shareware is paid for. (And only about 5% of $$ware is paid for.)
When it comes to software, the trust of ALL authors has been abused
- for decades. Ever since Andrew Fluegelman invented "shareware".
Click to expand...

Al, maybe that shows that programmers are more dishonest than other
people. Heh heh!

To be serious now, those figures probably shows the ability of
programmers to apply various non-legit access tools.

Meanwhile Joe Public might find that he does not have the option. If
you recall some recent posts of mine, the public I seem to come in
contact with have trouble simply unzipping files! It's a wonder they
have got anything at all installed. :-)
 
Nagware is nagging software that's free of monetary cost. Total
Commander is Shareware.
Click to expand...


Susan, am I using something different?

I regularly update my unpaid copy of Total Commander (I am now on
6.54a).

When I launch my TC, I get a box which asks me to key in 1, 2 or 3
according to what the box says. I do so and I get access to the
whole application.

I am calling that a "nag box" and I am therefore calling TC
"nagware". Maybe others differ from me.

If it were "shareware" I would expect to have to actually pay for
using it after the trial period had expired.

TC's home page calls it "shareware" but that doesn't mean it is or
isn't.
 
I didn't "steal it". I just use it.

And who bothers to read all license text and stuff?
Click to expand...


Craig, you are sort of stealing the use of it. Almost all software
is never sold but you pay for the right to use it. It is licensed to
you.

I do agree with you on your other point: I too never read any of
that EULA nonsense. Life is too short for that sort of thing.

In fact, if I read EULA info then I would never have time to post
here.

What's that you say? ... I should urgently go and read as many EULAs
as possible or my head will explode and my cat will turn green? Ok,
but you wont get any posts from me and then you'll be sorry.

Well, I think you will be sorry.

Er, ya'know, um, ah, maybe not exactly sorry.
 
This is not the first time an arguement breaks out about whether a
piece of software is freeware. My observation is that as long as you
mention something non-freeware, all those "regular guys/gals" (who are
like jealous freeware protectors or warriors) will pounce on you with
insults and abuses - just because you happen to mention something
non-freeware. Then very quickly, they forget about the original
discussion and go on and on with the freeware/non-freeware arguement.
You have the feeling that they will bash you if they can, if you
somehow disagree with their definition.

Now, what's wrong with that picture? It reminds me of SOME of those
extreme environmentalists who believe only they know how to protect the
environment.
 
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