Switch to DVD backup media from CD?

[Pan]

Hi

For about six years, I've been backing up computer data onto CD media.
Initially, I wasn't too careful with my backups, making no after-checks
and buying cheap media, although I've learnt from my mistakes in modern
times. As I'm not keen to lose the data I'm backing, I only buy
high-quality media these days and perform fairly through after-checks to
ensure that the data is burned correctly. However, my data is not
mission-critical or anything like that, so I have no reason to buy
massively expensive equipment to ensure it survives at all costs. In all
honestly, I've had very good reliability to date, even on the oldest CD's
and I'm not even sure that the problems I suffered where related to the
medium at all.

In recent times, the data I have to backup up has grown in size and I'm
considering a switch to DVD media. However, I'm not sure if DVD has yet
reached the same level of reliability as the more proven CD medium has and
the standards war has meant that I've been reluctant to change to DVD so
far. I would say that current and future readability, the ease of backup
operations and medium-time data retention are the most important factors
for me. In the latter case, I wouldn't worry about the data lasting longer
than a decade, I'm sure that in five years, I'll be looking to migrate all
the data onto a newer backup media. If I do decide to move to DVD backups,
I will transfer all my current CD backups onto DVD. I will then keep the
CD backups, but merely write all new backups to DVD alone.

Would any of you say that the DVD standard is now as mature as CD and as
safe a bet? Should I hang on to CD's a bit longer, or is it better to
migrate to DVD at this stage?

Thanks to anybody who responds to this thread. I'll be glad to hear any
critical views that people may hold.

Regards,

Pan

 

[Rod Speed]

For about six years, I've been backing up computer data onto CD media.
Initially, I wasn't too careful with my backups, making no after-checks
and buying cheap media, although I've learnt from my mistakes in modern
times. As I'm not keen to lose the data I'm backing, I only buy
high-quality media these days and perform fairly through after-checks to
ensure that the data is burned correctly. However, my data is not
mission-critical or anything like that, so I have no reason to buy
massively expensive equipment to ensure it survives at all costs. In all
honestly, I've had very good reliability to date, even on the oldest CD's
and I'm not even sure that the problems I suffered where related to the
medium at all.

In recent times, the data I have to backup up has grown in size and I'm
considering a switch to DVD media. However, I'm not sure if DVD has yet
reached the same level of reliability as the more proven CD medium has and
the standards war has meant that I've been reluctant to change to DVD so
far. I would say that current and future readability, the ease of backup
operations and medium-time data retention are the most important factors
for me. In the latter case, I wouldn't worry about the data lasting longer
than a decade, I'm sure that in five years, I'll be looking to migrate all
the data onto a newer backup media. If I do decide to move to DVD backups,
I will transfer all my current CD backups onto DVD. I will then keep the
CD backups, but merely write all new backups to DVD alone.

Would any of you say that the DVD standard is now as mature as CD
Nope.

and as safe a bet?
Nope.

Should I hang on to CD's a bit longer, or is
it better to migrate to DVD at this stage?

I've migrated to DVD and just continue with the level of protection I have
always
had with CDs when they were at the level of maturity that DVDs are now.

That basically means not using the cheapest media, and not using just
one brand and format of media and ensuring multiple copys at all times.

I find that what I care about losing now fits fine on a single DVD
and I keep that stuff on the hard drive at all times, and so the
frequent new copy of everything I care about to a single DVD
ensures that I have multiple copys of what matters at all times.

I currently use DVD+RW format most of the time with an
ocassional use of DVD-R media so that if it turns out that
one of the formats doesnt last as long as I would like, I will
become aware of that while I still have at least one other
format that hasnt yet started to show any sign of degradation.

I dont however generate a significant volume of stuff
that I dont want to lose, particularly pictures and video.

If I did, I would handle those the same way, multiple copys
on multiple types of media and keep checking to ensure
that none of the stuff on DVDs is degrading over time.

I have also deliberately chosen a DVD burner that has
a reputation for not being fussy about the media and
for being able to write DVDs that can be read reliably
in any DVD player I care to read them in. A Pioneer 109.

 

[Arno Wagner]

Hi

For about six years, I've been backing up computer data onto CD media.
Initially, I wasn't too careful with my backups, making no after-checks
and buying cheap media, although I've learnt from my mistakes in modern
times. As I'm not keen to lose the data I'm backing, I only buy
high-quality media these days and perform fairly through after-checks to
ensure that the data is burned correctly. However, my data is not
mission-critical or anything like that, so I have no reason to buy
massively expensive equipment to ensure it survives at all costs. In all
honestly, I've had very good reliability to date, even on the oldest CD's
and I'm not even sure that the problems I suffered where related to the
medium at all.

In recent times, the data I have to backup up has grown in size and I'm
considering a switch to DVD media. However, I'm not sure if DVD has yet
reached the same level of reliability as the more proven CD medium has and
the standards war has meant that I've been reluctant to change to DVD so
far. I would say that current and future readability, the ease of backup
operations and medium-time data retention are the most important factors
for me. In the latter case, I wouldn't worry about the data lasting longer
than a decade, I'm sure that in five years, I'll be looking to migrate all
the data onto a newer backup media. If I do decide to move to DVD backups,
I will transfer all my current CD backups onto DVD. I will then keep the
CD backups, but merely write all new backups to DVD alone.

Would any of you say that the DVD standard is now as mature as CD and as
safe a bet? Should I hang on to CD's a bit longer, or is it better to
migrate to DVD at this stage?

From the regular tests of writable DVDs and writers in the german
computer magazine c't, I would say that no, writable DVD (with the
exception of DVD-RAM) is not there yet. There are still frequent
tests where some quality medium and some DVD writers do not
work well together and produce unreliable or failed burns.

Arno

 

[Rod Speed]

From the regular tests of writable DVDs and writers in the german
computer magazine c't, I would say that no, writable DVD (with the
exception of DVD-RAM) is not there yet. There are still frequent
tests where some quality medium and some DVD writers do not
work well together and produce unreliable or failed burns.

Makes more sense to choose a drive where that doesnt
happen than it does to say stick with CDs for that reason.

 

[Henry Nettles]

I've migrated to DVD and just continue with the level of protection I have
always
had with CDs when they were at the level of maturity that DVDs are now.

That basically means not using the cheapest media, and not using just
one brand and format of media and ensuring multiple copys at all times.

I find that what I care about losing now fits fine on a single DVD
and I keep that stuff on the hard drive at all times, and so the
frequent new copy of everything I care about to a single DVD
ensures that I have multiple copys of what matters at all times.

I currently use DVD+RW format most of the time with an
ocassional use of DVD-R media so that if it turns out that
one of the formats doesnt last as long as I would like, I will
become aware of that while I still have at least one other
format that hasnt yet started to show any sign of degradation.

I dont however generate a significant volume of stuff
that I dont want to lose, particularly pictures and video.

If I did, I would handle those the same way, multiple copys
on multiple types of media and keep checking to ensure
that none of the stuff on DVDs is degrading over time.

I have also deliberately chosen a DVD burner that has
a reputation for not being fussy about the media and
for being able to write DVDs that can be read reliably
in any DVD player I care to read them in. A Pioneer 109.

I would agree with most of what Rod Speed has to say here, with the
biggest exception being for the choice of DVD burner. Of the drives
currently available here in the United States, I would rate the
Pioneer 109 as being 5th on the list. My list, in order of
preference,

1) Benq 1620
2) Nec 3520
3) LG 4163
4) Pioneer 108
5) Pioneer 109

I have owned all of the drives listed above (and others), and done
many tests with different media.

YMMV.

 

[Rod Speed]

I would agree with most of what Rod Speed has to say here, with the
biggest exception being for the choice of DVD burner. Of the drives
currently available here in the United States, I would rate the
Pioneer 109 as being 5th on the list. My list, in order of
preference,

1) Benq 1620
2) Nec 3520
3) LG 4163
4) Pioneer 108
5) Pioneer 109

I have owned all of the drives listed above (and
others), and done many tests with different media.

YMMV.

And so do the reviews that test the drives properly, with your list.

 

[Pan]

From the regular tests of writable DVDs and writers in the german
computer magazine c't, I would say that no, writable DVD (with the
exception of DVD-RAM) is not there yet. There are still frequent tests
where some quality medium and some DVD writers do not work well together
and produce unreliable or failed burns.

I do scan all written CD's with Nero CD Speed using both the Scandisc and
CD quality tests so I hopefully should be able to pick up initially poorly
written burns before I consign the DVD to storage. That's assuming that
Nero CD-DVD does the same job as CD Speed of course.....

My main worry in migrating to DVD's is the potential loss of data over a
period of time, or finding that my collection of DVD backups is no
longer compatible in another DVD drive. If newer standards are not
compatible with the DVD's, that would be a big problem too, although I
tend to think that is unlikely to occur.

Regards,

Pan

 

[Pan]

I've migrated to DVD and just continue with the level of protection I have
always
had with CDs when they were at the level of maturity that DVDs are now.

That basically means not using the cheapest media, and not using just
one brand and format of media and ensuring multiple copys at all times.

I do intend to make at least two copies of every burn if I do decide to go
with DVD. What brands do you alternate between? I use TDK for CD's,
although I know they don't have a perfect name in CD creation. I do stick
with the ones known to come from a proven factory though.

I find that what I care about losing now fits fine on a single DVD
and I keep that stuff on the hard drive at all times, and so the
frequent new copy of everything I care about to a single DVD
ensures that I have multiple copys of what matters at all times.

I've heard removable hard disks are a good alternative to using DVD's full
stop. Apparently they are very reliable and probably likely to outlast
DVD's completely. I don't really like the thought of using magnetic
storage to keep all my data though, and the single-point of failure is
obviously a concern. I suppose DVD's are still the best choice for the
next backup stage.

I currently use DVD+RW format most of the time with an
ocassional use of DVD-R media so that if it turns out that
one of the formats doesnt last as long as I would like, I will
become aware of that while I still have at least one other
format that hasnt yet started to show any sign of degradation.

Good idea. I'll go with DVD-R and DVD+R to ensure I have some security
against degradation. However, I find it unlikely that either +R or -R will
become unsupported, most likely they'll both be supported under a new
unified standard much like the old modem wars between K56Flex and X2.
These two were unified under V90 of course.

I dont however generate a significant volume of stuff
that I dont want to lose, particularly pictures and video.

If I did, I would handle those the same way, multiple copys
on multiple types of media and keep checking to ensure
that none of the stuff on DVDs is degrading over time.

I have also deliberately chosen a DVD burner that has
a reputation for not being fussy about the media and
for being able to write DVDs that can be read reliably
in any DVD player I care to read them in. A Pioneer 109.

Thanks for the information. Are there any other DVD writers that can be
recommended?

I suppose it would be more than a bit stupid to look at dual-layer DVD's?

Regards,

Pan

 

[Pan]

And so do the reviews that test the drives properly, with your list.

Suffice to say, I'll look at a set of reviews myself before making any
definite decisions. But your list will probably come in useful, thanks.

Regards,

Pan

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

I do intend to make at least two copies of every burn if I do
decide to go with DVD. What brands do you alternate between?

I dont bother doing it by brand anymore.
Just avoid the supercheap media now.

I did do it by brand with CDs at one time, but found that I
didnt lose any over time as long as I avoided the absolute
bottom of the market so gave up bothering about the brand.

Then again, I deliberately chose a liteon burner
that has a reputation for reliable burns.

Just had the first dud for years and years, was getting
low when a mate of mine was around, said that I was
getting low and had him hand me a spindle of 50 from
the lowest price operation in town to save me going
out to get some. One of those was bad and the inner
layer of the area burnt is noticeably poor, rather a
wavy pattern in it, but only with some blanks.

I use TDK for CD's, although I know they don't have
a perfect name in CD creation. I do stick with the
ones known to come from a proven factory though.

I've heard removable hard disks are a
good alternative to using DVD's full stop.

Yes, as long as you arent prone to dropping things.

That is close to what I do separately to using CDs and
DVDs too, basically write the critical stuff that I cant
afford to lose to other drives on the local network of PCs.

Apparently they are very reliable

Dunno, you'll find virtually all of the hard drive manufacturers
except samsung will only warranty externals for 1 year.

and probably likely to outlast DVD's completely.

Maybe, but I dont need that sort of long term
reliability, essentially because I keep backing
up everything that I care about at a decent rate.

But I dont bother with photos or videos.

I don't really like the thought of using magnetic storage to keep all
my data though, and the single-point of failure is obviously a concern.

Yes, I'd never have just one. I dont even do that at the software level.

I suppose DVD's are still the best choice for the next backup stage.

Yeah, thats my feeling, hard drives and DVD combined.

Good idea. I'll go with DVD-R and DVD+R to ensure I have some
security against degradation. However, I find it unlikely that either +R
or -R will become unsupported, most likely they'll both be supported
under a new unified standard much like the old modem wars between
K56Flex and X2. These two were unified under V90 of course.

I handle that differently, once a particular format is
passing its useby date, I have always got the data
that matters on more modern media. So I dont have
anything on floppy now and dont usually bother to even
install a floppy drive in a system I assemble anymore.

Thanks for the information. Are there any
other DVD writers that can be recommended?

That list that Henry posted isnt bad.

I suppose it would be more than a bit
stupid to look at dual-layer DVD's?

I dont use them just because of the price, and because
I dont need the higher capacity except for more
convenience with copying commercially made DVDs.

But since I never bother to watch anything more
than once, life is something I dont care about
as long as the life is better than months.

 

[Pan]

I dont bother doing it by brand anymore. Just avoid the supercheap media
now.

I did do it by brand with CDs at one time, but found that I didnt lose
any over time as long as I avoided the absolute bottom of the market so
gave up bothering about the brand.

Then again, I deliberately chose a liteon burner that has a reputation
for reliable burns.

I must confess that my cheap quality CD's from five years ago seem to be
holding up well. But like you, I also choose a good CD writer, one of the
Ricoh's 7060 I believe. I guess the writer is the most important part of
the equation.

Thanks for the media information.

Just had the first dud for years and years, was getting low when a mate
of mine was around, said that I was getting low and had him hand me a
spindle of 50 from the lowest price operation in town to save me going
out to get some. One of those was bad and the inner layer of the area
burnt is noticeably poor, rather a wavy pattern in it, but only with
some blanks.

I always scan every CD with a surface scanner before committing it to
archive. If a burn looks even slightly dubious, I get rid of it and burn
another. But that only rarely happens, most burns are nearly perfect. I do
use only 4x writes though to keep problems to a minimum. I've heard higher
speeds can result in lower quality burns as the disc vibrates more during
writing.

Yes, as long as you arent prone to dropping things.

Unfortunately my record isn't that good

That is close to what I do separately to using CDs and DVDs too,
basically write the critical stuff that I cant afford to lose to other
drives on the local network of PCs.

Yep, I do the same for stuff that is often updated, copy it across the
network on a daily basis to another computer for safe-keeping. I wrote a
quick script to automate the process.

Dunno, you'll find virtually all of the hard drive manufacturers except
samsung will only warranty externals for 1 year.

I don't know if this is true, but I heard that this was done simply to
reduce the massive numbers of warranties that hard disk manufacturers have
to get a tag on. Hard disks are apparently so reliable these days that you
can realistically expect them to last for years. This could all be an
excuse of course, but I must confess, I haven't had all that many failures
myself. I brought my WD hard disk because it was backed by a three-year
warranty though just to be sure.

Maybe, but I dont need that sort of long term reliability, essentially
because I keep backing up everything that I care about at a decent rate.

But I dont bother with photos or videos.

I do have photos and videos. But the main point of why I'm considering
DVD's now is that I'm becoming concerned about some of the lower quality
discs I burned about five years ago. I'd prefer to be safe and burn newer
copies of these discs to be sure. So I can either begin replacing older
CD's on a 1 to 1 basis from the older ones I have, or I can replace the
standard with DVD and do a copy of the entire collection. It's a renewal
I'm looking at now and I'm wondering if I should go with DVD, or stick
with CD for the foreseeable future.

I handle that differently, once a particular format is passing its useby
date, I have always got the data that matters on more modern media. So I
dont have anything on floppy now and dont usually bother to even install
a floppy drive in a system I assemble anymore.

Well, I have old floppy's, but I never use them anymore, they were pretty
unreliable as a backup medium anyway. Pendrives seem most likely to
replace them I think. However, I don't think I'd build a system without a
floppy just yet, I like the keep the option of having the device
available, and there are always annoying things that need a floppy to work
or boot with (like Dell drivers for example). Although you can probably
get around it, I think it's less hassle to keep it.

That list that Henry posted isnt bad.

I'll definitely look into that.

I dont use them just because of the price, and because I dont need the
higher capacity except for more convenience with copying commercially
made DVDs.

But since I never bother to watch anything more than once, life is
something I dont care about as long as the life is better than months.

I have no real interest in copying DVD's, so I would probably use the
drive almost exclusively for backup purposes.

I heard that there were "rotting" problems with commercial dual-layer
DVD's, so it's probably tempting fate to buy a writing dual-layer drive at
the moment The technology is too new to be considered reliable.

Regards,

Pan

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

Unfortunately my record isn't that good

Thats one big advantage with DVDs, they survive dropping much better.

Yep, I do the same for stuff that is often updated, copy it across
the network on a daily basis to another computer for safe-keeping.

Yeah, by far the best for a high level of backup
so you dont lose much if something does die.

I do the highest activity stuff, code, a different way, manually
backup at particular points in the code development, multiple
times a day, so whatever happens you aint lost much. That
is more for protection against user error than hardware failure,
the situation where you do a substantial reorganisation of the
code etc and then decide that there is a good reason for not
doing it that way and you want to step back from that easily.

I wrote a quick script to automate the process.

Yeah, I did too, tho its database based.

I don't know if this is true, but I heard that this was done
simply to reduce the massive numbers of warranties that
hard disk manufacturers have to get a tag on.

The problem with that line is that some manufacturers
have a different warranty for external drives and internal
drives. Presumably they have noticed that they are
getting a significantly higher return rate with the externals.

Hard disks are apparently so reliable these days
that you can realistically expect them to last for years.
This could all be an excuse of course, but I must
confess, I haven't had all that many failures myself.

Yeah, I've only had one with IDE drives.

I brought my WD hard disk because it was backed
by a three-year warranty though just to be sure.

Yeah, thats a real bonus with the samsungs, 3 years
on everything, tho I buy them for their quietness.

And I havent chosen to buy seagate lately, with their new
5 year warrantys, essentially because they arent as quiet
as the samsungs and get too hot for my taste too.

I've come close tho, essentially because samsung is a tad
slow with buyable drives over 160G and I've replaced the
VCRs with a PC with multiple digital TV tuner cards and I
have a real need for more drive space. So far I have decided
to wait, essentially because the samsungs are much quieter.

I do have photos and videos. But the main point of why I'm
considering DVD's now is that I'm becoming concerned about some
of the lower quality discs I burned about five years ago. I'd prefer
to be safe and burn newer copies of these discs to be sure.

Yeah, I've always done that myself, that insurance is dirt cheap.

So I can either begin replacing older CD's on a 1 to 1 basis
from the older ones I have, or I can replace the standard
with DVD and do a copy of the entire collection. It's a
renewal I'm looking at now and I'm wondering if I should
go with DVD, or stick with CD for the foreseeable future.

I'd change to DVD now if you arent getting any CD failures.

Basically DVDs are now mature enough, tho in
my opinion thats only quite recently become true.

I basically waited till dual layer became available, even
tho I dont plan to use them much for a while, due to the
fact that the media is currently rather poor value.

Well, I have old floppy's, but I never use them anymore,
they were pretty unreliable as a backup medium anyway.

Yeah, thats the main reason I gave up on them. With
my level of backup that was never more than a nuisance,
but there isnt any point in bothering with that nuisance
and there hasnt been any for a long time. Any system
has to have a cdrom or dvd drive, so I dont bother
with a floppy drive even tho they only cost peanuts.

Pendrives seem most likely to replace them I think.

Dunno, I have basically replaced them with CDs.

But I dont have any independant PCs, they're all networked.

And when I want to give someone something thats too big
for transfer over the web, CDs are more convenient than
pen drives, just because they are so cheap that the cost
of postage is trivial. I can send them for the letter rate.

Thats mostly people stuck with dialup
who need something like the XP SP2 etc.

I also do it with stuff like TV series downloaded
off the net written to DVD as avi files and played
on a DVD player that can do that.

However, I don't think I'd build a system without a floppy just
yet, I like the keep the option of having the device available,
and there are always annoying things that need a floppy to
work or boot with (like Dell drivers for example). Although you
can probably get around it, I think it's less hassle to keep it.

I do have a floppy drive that I can plug in if its ever needed.

Havent needed to for a long time, essentially I use
Bart PE etc to get a driver into the system over the
lan instead. That works even when the new system
needs an obscure NIC driver to connect to the lan.

I need the lan connection to install the various misc stuff
anyway and have a folder of shortcuts on the main system
so its completely trivial to configure a newly assembled system.

I have no real interest in copying DVD's, so I would probably
use the drive almost exclusively for backup purposes.

I heard that there were "rotting" problems with commercial dual-layer
DVD's, so it's probably tempting fate to buy a writing dual-layer drive
at the moment The technology is too new to be considered reliable.

I agree that the media isnt worth bothering with currently, even if you
do copy commercial DVDs, two single layer DVDs makes more sense.

But you get dual layer capable burners automatically now, I cant think
of any of the DVD burners worth considering that doesnt have that now.

 

[Pan]

Thats one big advantage with DVDs, they survive dropping much better.

Yes, dropped one a few days ago, but managed to trap it at the last minute
between a desk and my hand. Fortunately it showed no signs of any damage
at all. The fall wasn't that bad, but I wouldn't of been surprised to see
a minor scratch or two.

Yeah, by far the best for a high level of backup so you dont lose much
if something does die.

The most convenient and fastest as well. I learnt years ago to do this
when I unfortunately made a serious mistake and wiped the wrong hard disk
clean......

The problem with that line is that some manufacturers have a different
warranty for external drives and internal drives. Presumably they have
noticed that they are getting a significantly higher return rate with
the externals.

Ah, sorry, I missed the words "externals". However, it could be that the
higher number of returns for these is caused by people hoping for
replacements when they drop them

Yeah, I've only had one with IDE drives.

I've had two fail. I suspect that both may of been my fault though, I
didn't know anything about magnetic fields years ago and had the speaker
on top of my tower case. After seven or eight months, the first drive
starting developing random bad sectors all over the drive. It could very
well be related. The second was during a period where one of my RAM chips
blew and was corrupting all my data. I didn't know where the problem was
at first, and spent quite a while unplugging and re-plugging the HD cables
and power lead to ensure nothing was amiss there. After a bit of
this, the drive just refused to power-up again.

Yeah, thats a real bonus with the samsungs, 3 years on everything, tho I
buy them for their quietness.

Although Samsung have been around for a while now, I did originally shy
away from them because they were a relative newcomer to the field. I have
tended to like to stick to the more established drive manufacturers who
should have better support and drive construction technology in place.
That's my theory anyway, not sure about the practise

And I havent chosen to buy seagate lately, with their new 5 year
warrantys, essentially because they arent as quiet as the samsungs and
get too hot for my taste too.

Yes, I've heard about the heat generated by the Seagate drives. That's put
me off buying any of theirs so far, although the 5-year warranty sounds
impressive. The noise has never really bothered me.

I've come close tho, essentially because samsung is a tad slow with
buyable drives over 160G and I've replaced the VCRs with a PC with
multiple digital TV tuner cards and I have a real need for more drive
space. So far I have decided to wait, essentially because the samsungs
are much quieter.

That's interesting. How have you gone about setting up a PC as a VCR
recorder? Why have you gone for multiple cards? I've been wondering what
to do about VCR's for a long time now VHS is on the way out and DVD
recording isn't quite there yet.

I'd change to DVD now if you arent getting any CD failures.

I'm leaning in that direction myself now after posting to this forum.

Basically DVDs are now mature enough, tho in my opinion thats only quite
recently become true.

I basically waited till dual layer became available, even tho I dont
plan to use them much for a while, due to the fact that the media is
currently rather poor value.

Why did you think that the availability of dual layer drives resulted in
DVD's reaching a more mature state?

Yeah, thats the main reason I gave up on them. With my level of backup
that was never more than a nuisance, but there isnt any point in
bothering with that nuisance and there hasnt been any for a long time.
Any system has to have a cdrom or dvd drive, so I dont bother with a
floppy drive even tho they only cost peanuts.

Agreed. Not only were they slow and inefficient, but they weren't very
reliable at keeping their data either

Dunno, I have basically replaced them with CDs.

I think the slightly more inconvenient writing procedure for CD's
(i.e, not random access) makes flash memory, i.e with pendrives a better
replacement for the floppy. There is packet writing for CD's of course,
but it never really took off in any big way, mainly I suspect because it
proved unreliable when writing Packet CD's on more than one system.

But I dont have any independant PCs, they're all networked.

Same here, independent PC's are just a nuisance

And when I want to give someone something thats too big for transfer
over the web, CDs are more convenient than pen drives, just because they
are so cheap that the cost of postage is trivial. I can send them for
the letter rate.

Yep, I would agree that CD's are more convenient for this purpose.
However, if you personally want to transfer files yourself from system to
system, particularly if you don't control the system at one end, pendrives
have always seemed the best alternative to me.

I do have a floppy drive that I can plug in if its ever needed.

Havent needed to for a long time, essentially I use Bart PE etc to get a
driver into the system over the lan instead. That works even when the
new system needs an obscure NIC driver to connect to the lan.

I need the lan connection to install the various misc stuff anyway and
have a folder of shortcuts on the main system so its completely trivial
to configure a newly assembled system.

Sounds handy. I find that bootable CD's and CD-Bootable OS's like Knoppix
have made new system administrator pretty simple these days.

I agree that the media isnt worth bothering with currently, even if you
do copy commercial DVDs, two single layer DVDs makes more sense.

But you get dual layer capable burners automatically now, I cant think
of any of the DVD burners worth considering that doesnt have that now.

It's worth getting a dual layer capable burner as you say for
future-compatibility. But for reliability reasons, I'm certainly sticking
to single layer DVD's for now

Regards,

Pan

 

[Pan]

Thats one big advantage with DVDs, they survive dropping much better.

Yes, dropped one a few days ago, but managed to trap it at the last minute
between a desk and my hand. Fortunately it showed no signs of any damage
at all. The fall wasn't that bad, but I wouldn't of been surprised to see
a minor scratch or two.

Yeah, by far the best for a high level of backup so you dont lose much
if something does die.

The most convenient and fastest as well. I learnt years ago to do this
when I unfortunately made a serious mistake and wiped the wrong hard disk
clean......

The problem with that line is that some manufacturers have a different
warranty for external drives and internal drives. Presumably they have
noticed that they are getting a significantly higher return rate with
the externals.

Ah, sorry, I missed the words "externals". However, it could be that the
higher number of returns for these is caused by people hoping for
replacements when they drop them

Yeah, I've only had one with IDE drives.

I've had two fail. I suspect that both may of been my fault though, I
didn't know anything about magnetic fields years ago and had the speaker
on top of my tower case. After seven or eight months, the first drive
starting developing random bad sectors all over the drive. It could very
well be related. The second was during a period where one of my RAM chips
blew and was corrupting all my data. I didn't know where the problem was
at first, and spent quite a while unplugging and re-plugging the HD cables
and power lead to ensure nothing was amiss there. After a bit of this, the
drive just refused to power-up again.

Yeah, thats a real bonus with the samsungs, 3 years on everything, tho I
buy them for their quietness.

Although Samsung have been around for a while now, I did originally shy
away from them because they were a relative newcomer to the field. I have
tended to like to stick to the more established drive manufacturers who
should have better support and drive construction technology in place.
That's my theory anyway, not sure about the practise

And I havent chosen to buy seagate lately, with their new 5 year
warrantys, essentially because they arent as quiet as the samsungs and
get too hot for my taste too.

Yes, I've heard about the heat generated by the Seagate drives. That's put
me off buying any of theirs so far, although the 5-year warranty sounds
impressive. The noise has never really bothered me.

I've come close tho, essentially because samsung is a tad slow with
buyable drives over 160G and I've replaced the VCRs with a PC with
multiple digital TV tuner cards and I have a real need for more drive
space. So far I have decided to wait, essentially because the samsungs
are much quieter.

That's interesting. How have you gone about setting up a PC as a VCR
recorder? Why have you gone for multiple cards? I've been wondering what
to do about VCR's for a long time now VHS is on the way out and DVD
recording isn't quite there yet.

I'd change to DVD now if you arent getting any CD failures.

I'm leaning in that direction myself now after posting to this forum.

Basically DVDs are now mature enough, tho in my opinion thats only quite
recently become true.

I basically waited till dual layer became available, even tho I dont
plan to use them much for a while, due to the fact that the media is
currently rather poor value.

Why did you think that the availability of dual layer drives resulted in
DVD's reaching a more mature state?

Yeah, thats the main reason I gave up on them. With my level of backup
that was never more than a nuisance, but there isnt any point in
bothering with that nuisance and there hasnt been any for a long time.
Any system has to have a cdrom or dvd drive, so I dont bother with a
floppy drive even tho they only cost peanuts.

Agreed. Not only were they slow and inefficient, but they weren't very
reliable at keeping their data either

Dunno, I have basically replaced them with CDs.

I think the slightly more inconvenient writing procedure for CD's (i.e,
not random access) makes flash memory, i.e with pendrives a better
replacement for the floppy. There is packet writing for CD's of course,
but it never really took off in any big way, mainly I suspect because it
proved unreliable when writing Packet CD's on more than one system.

But I dont have any independant PCs, they're all networked.

Same here, independent PC's are just a nuisance

And when I want to give someone something thats too big for transfer
over the web, CDs are more convenient than pen drives, just because they
are so cheap that the cost of postage is trivial. I can send them for
the letter rate.

Yep, I would agree that CD's are more convenient for this purpose.
However, if you personally want to transfer files yourself from system to
system, particularly if you don't control the system at one end, pendrives
have always seemed the best alternative to me.

I do have a floppy drive that I can plug in if its ever needed.

Havent needed to for a long time, essentially I use Bart PE etc to get a
driver into the system over the lan instead. That works even when the
new system needs an obscure NIC driver to connect to the lan.

I need the lan connection to install the various misc stuff anyway and
have a folder of shortcuts on the main system so its completely trivial
to configure a newly assembled system.

Sounds handy. I find that bootable CD's and CD-Bootable OS's like Knoppix
have made new system administrator pretty simple these days.

I agree that the media isnt worth bothering with currently, even if you
do copy commercial DVDs, two single layer DVDs makes more sense.

But you get dual layer capable burners automatically now, I cant think
of any of the DVD burners worth considering that doesnt have that now.

It would be worth getting a dual layer capable burner anyway for
future-compatibility. But for reliability reasons, I'm certainly sticking
to single layer DVD's for now

Regards,

Pan

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

That's interesting. How have you gone
about setting up a PC as a VCR recorder?

Basically just an older PC that was once the
main system, with multiple digital TV cards.

XP Media Edition is another approach tho I dont use that personally.

Why have you gone for multiple cards?

You basically need one for each channel recorded simultaneously.

I watch almost nothing live now, much more convenient to watch
it from the hard drive, so you can skip the ads, watch it when you
choose to rather than when its broadcast, and phone calls etc
are a complete yawn etc. I quite often am recording 3 channels
at once, tho its usually more than 2 just because the broadcasts
arent guaranteed to start and finish at the scheduled time etc.

I've been wondering what to do about VCR's
for a long time now VHS is on the way out

Yeah, and with a bloody great widescreen TV, the visible
defects with VCRs were getting to be a significant irritation.

and DVD recording isn't quite there yet.

Yeah, none of those come with a digital tuner currently.

I prefer to do my own than to buy one of the hard drive
based recorders. Those are too limited as far as being
able to move files around conveniently for me.

Why did you think that the availability of dual layer
drives resulted in DVD's reaching a more mature state?

I didnt mean to imply any link on that.

It was more complete support for all formats and a reputation
for being happy to burn any media that wasnt physically defective
that happened coincidentally with dual layer capability.

Agreed. Not only were they slow and inefficient, but
they weren't very reliable at keeping their data either

Yeah, I've never had a CD go bad, not even scratched
enough by me to be unusuable. Lots of floppys went bad.

I think the slightly more inconvenient writing procedure
for CD's (i.e, not random access) makes flash memory,
i.e with pendrives a better replacement for the floppy.

I dont do much of that sort of access with CDs. They're
normally burnt from an iso, written using Creator Classic
when its files to give to someone, or with backup.

There is packet writing for CD's of course, but it never really
took off in any big way, mainly I suspect because it proved
unreliable when writing Packet CD's on more than one system.

Yeah, I did use it quite a bit at one time but normally use Creator Classic now.

Same here, independent PC's are just a nuisance

Yeah, I normally network even foreign PCs that I'm
working on, so much more convenient for file access etc.

Yep, I would agree that CD's are more convenient for this purpose.
However, if you personally want to transfer files yourself from
system to system, particularly if you don't control the system at
one end, pendrives have always seemed the best alternative to me.

Dunno, I hardly ever move stuff small enough to fit on them now.

Lately most stuff has been better on DVD than CD too.

Sounds handy. I find that bootable CD's and CD-Bootable OS's like
Knoppix have made new system administrator pretty simple these days.

Yeah, the only very minor blemish is that the boot from CD is a tad slow.

More than made up for by the fact that all the tools you need are there
once its booted. Its only the very usual stuff like drivers that arent.

It's worth getting a dual layer capable burner as you
say for future-compatibility. But for reliability reasons,
I'm certainly sticking to single layer DVD's for now

Yeah, me too, but thats mostly due to the poor value.

 

[Pan]

Basically just an older PC that was once the main system, with multiple
digital TV cards.

XP Media Edition is another approach tho I dont use that personally.

What software/OS are you using for this? I might think about implementing
something like this myself.

I watch almost nothing live now, much more convenient to watch it from
the hard drive, so you can skip the ads, watch it when you choose to
rather than when its broadcast, and phone calls etc are a complete yawn
etc. I quite often am recording 3 channels at once, tho its usually more
than 2 just because the broadcasts arent guaranteed to start and finish
at the scheduled time etc.

Yes, it does sound like a good idea, and I suppose you always have the
option to burn the TV movie files to a DVD for future viewing too.

I prefer to do my own than to buy one of the hard drive based recorders.
Those are too limited as far as being able to move files around
conveniently for me.

I must admit that I know very little about hard disk recording. I had a
look at a few today, but I couldn't work out if the Freeview ones would
work with Sky. What I read seemed to suggest you need a Sky recorder for
that, but as far as I can see, as long as you can get digital output, you
can record it externally with whatever you like.

I didnt mean to imply any link on that.

It was more complete support for all formats and a reputation for being
happy to burn any media that wasnt physically defective that happened
coincidentally with dual layer capability.

Yes, the -R/RW and +R/RW standards seem to of become the main standards of
late and are well supported. I'm not too sure about the future of DVD-RAM,
but I guess it has enough support to last a decent time into the future.

Yeah, I've never had a CD go bad, not even scratched enough by me to be
unusuable. Lots of floppys went bad.

Yes, I got so tired of CRC errors, I brought a tape drive and starting
using that instead They are apparently quite reliable, although I was
concerned that the tape may snap one day. Then again, I've heard people
say you can just stick it back together and it'll work fine.

Yeah, I did use it quite a bit at one time but normally use Creator
Classic now.

I used it for a while, but when I heard it was unreliable, I abandoned it.
To be honest, I didn't find it very reliable myself so it wasn't a
difficult decision.

Dunno, I hardly ever move stuff small enough to fit on them now.

Perhaps that's true for the smaller ones, but flash memory is now nearing
CD sizes at competitive prices.

Lately most stuff has been better on DVD than CD too.

That rules out flash memory after all then

Yeah, the only very minor blemish is that the boot from CD is a tad
slow.

More than made up for by the fact that all the tools you need are there
once its booted. Its only the very usual stuff like drivers that arent.

I agree totally. There's nothing better as an emergency toolkit than CD
bootable OS's. Drivers can be a problem when they get older, but most of
the ones I use are updated regularly anyway.

Regards,

Pan

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

What software/OS are you using for this?

What came with the card, on XP. The software supports multiple cards.

Looking at using webschedule, but havent started to yet.

I might think about implementing something like this myself.

I've had no regrets at all.

Only thing that I didnt think thru fully was the use of hard drive
space, at 2-4G per hour, its quite hungry of hard drive space
and while you can crunch that back to say 350MB avi files, the
computing horsepower required to do that in a reasonable time
isnt trivial. Currently I just watch it in the dvr-ms file format.

Yes, it does sound like a good idea, and I suppose you always have
the option to burn the TV movie files to a DVD for future viewing too.

Yep. And I deliberately got a DVD player which can play mpeg files
directly. It takes minimal computing power to turn a dvr-ms file into
an mpeg, its really just stripping off the packet info in the dvr-ms file.

I must admit that I know very little about hard disk recording. I had a
look at a few today, but I couldn't work out if the Freeview ones would
work with Sky. What I read seemed to suggest you need a Sky recorder
for that, but as far as I can see, as long as you can get digital output,
you can record it externally with whatever you like.

Yeah, thats basically correct.

Yes, the -R/RW and +R/RW standards seem to of become
the main standards of late and are well supported.

Yep, any decent burner supports them all now. Dual layer too.

I'm not too sure about the future of DVD-RAM, but I guess
it has enough support to last a decent time into the future.

Yeah, tho if any are going to die early it will be that one.

I didnt bother with it myself, mainly because the media is poor value.

Yes, I got so tired of CRC errors, I brought a tape drive and
starting using that instead They are apparently quite reliable,

I gave up on those before I gave up on floppys.

although I was concerned that the tape may snap one day.

That isnt seen very often at all.

Then again, I've heard people say you can
just stick it back together and it'll work fine.

Perhaps that's true for the smaller ones,
but flash memory is now nearing CD sizes
Yes.

at competitive prices.

Cant agree with that at all.

That rules out flash memory after all then

Yep.

 

[Pan]

What came with the card, on XP. The software supports multiple cards.

Which TV cards do you use? How did you find them?

I've had no regrets at all.

Sounds interesting for sure.

Only thing that I didnt think thru fully was the use of hard drive
space, at 2-4G per hour, its quite hungry of hard drive space
and while you can crunch that back to say 350MB avi files, the
computing horsepower required to do that in a reasonable time
isnt trivial. Currently I just watch it in the dvr-ms file format.

Yes, I'm not surprised about that, video is well known to consume a lot of
hard disk space without processor intensive compression. But with a 160G
hard disk, that still gives you a lot of recording

Yeah, tho if any are going to die early it will be that one.

I agree with that, so that's the one I plan to avoid. I think it's quite
likely that a new unified standard somewhere between -R and +R technology
will be developed. At this stage, I'm not sure where DVD-RAM will fit in.

I gave up on those before I gave up on floppys.

Why? Although they are quite slow, I think it's infinitely preferable to
floppy's surely?

Cant agree with that at all.

Well, a quick survey of an online shop I use establishes a 512 pendrive at
£28 with an SD card at £18. This isn't as cheap as DVD media of
course, but no drive is required and the drive has random read/write
capability and is fully re-usable.

I guess it comes down to what you want. I would prefer the convenience of
a 512 pendrive for carting data about at the prices quoted, whereas you
may prefer the raw savings provided by the use of CD media. Each to
his/her own I suppose

Just wanted to personally thank you in advance for all the help you've
provided. Your advice has proven very useful in helping me to choose to
switch to DVD media.

My thanks also to everybody else who replied in this thread. Much
appreciated.

Regards,

Pan

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

Which TV cards do you use?

DNTV Live!

How did you find them?

Not clear if you mean how did I discover them or how do I find
them to use. No real complaints except that the software is a
little less than perfect currently, not by much tho.

Sounds interesting for sure.

Yeah, rather radically changes the way I do things with TV recording.

You dont have to fart around finding big enough holes
in the tapes for what you want to record, just ensure
that the total space left on the hard drive is enough.

The viewer I use keeps track of where I have got up to in each
file, so thats in some ways even easier than with tapes too.

Yes, I'm not surprised about that, video is well known to consume
a lot of hard disk space without processor intensive compression.
But with a 160G hard disk, that still gives you a lot of recording

Yeah, but I do record quite a bit since I watch almost nothing live.

I agree with that, so that's the one I plan to avoid. I think it's quite
likely that a new unified standard somewhere between -R and +R technology
will be developed. At this stage, I'm not sure where DVD-RAM will fit in.

I guess it mostly depends on how long its used in dedicated DVD recorders.

My burner will read them, just wont burn them.

Why?

Too unreliable.

Although they are quite slow, I think it's
infinitely preferable to floppy's surely?

Sure, but I had a CD burner by then.

Well, a quick survey of an online shop I use establishes a 512 pendrive at
£28 with an SD card at £18. This isn't as cheap as DVD media of course,

Thats what I meant by the prices not being competitive at all.

but no drive is required

Sure, but I have one anyway for other reasons.

and the drive has random read/write capability and is fully re-usable.

Sure, the technology is fine, its just poor value.

I guess it comes down to what you want. I would prefer the convenience
of a 512 pendrive for carting data about at the prices quoted,

I use CD for that size. And had a CD burner
well before the pen drives ever showed up.

whereas you may prefer the raw savings
provided by the use of CD media.

Its not that so much as the fact that I move data around on the lan
or the net the bulk of the time and with the bigger volumes where a
CD makes sense, CDs are so cheap I dont care about the cost and
they are much more convenient to post, since you dont need to waste
any money on more than letter rate and dont need to get it back etc.

Each to his/her own I suppose

Indeed. They are quite useful if you want a portable mp3
player, but I dont bother with portable music at all, ever.

Just wanted to personally thank you in advance for all
the help you've provided. Your advice has proven very
useful in helping me to choose to switch to DVD media.

No problem, thats what these tech groups are all about.

 

[Arno Wagner]

On Sun, 29 May 2005 14:36:46 +0000, Arno Wagner wrote:

I do scan all written CD's with Nero CD Speed using both the Scandisc and
CD quality tests so I hopefully should be able to pick up initially poorly
written burns before I consign the DVD to storage. That's assuming that
Nero CD-DVD does the same job as CD Speed of course.....

My main worry in migrating to DVD's is the potential loss of data over a
period of time,

That would be my concern also. You need a significanlty better than
"reads fine after burning" burn to accomodate ageing. c't does
surface analysis with professional equipment after test burns and
many combinations of writer/speed/medium are marginal or problematic.
The problem is not that there are no good combinations, but that it
is difficult to find them. In addition the manufacturers seem to
change their media over time and a firmware-upgrade to a writer
can make things better or worse so you cannot rely long-term on
published test results.

Arno