Stupid question about CSS or creating a main reference

  • Thread starter Thread starter D
  • Start date Start date
D

D

All,

When doing a site ... I will create a "template" or layout of the site getting the
tables the way I want them etc ....

Once made, it is saved as "template" and used for all pages populating the content
inside for each page and saved as a different page name for each.

As you would imagine, making changes to each individual page is PIA ... how can
I make this "template" but have different content for each page, but update the
"template" and have it effect all pages?

I tried to save the "template" as a CSS .. that didn't work ... tried to do a include ..
that didn't work .. don't know what else to do.

TIA for any time saving tip on this matter.

D
 
I do it this way:
set up the perfect "template" page with a link to the css file, any other underlying stuff and a table, usually a table with a header, footer and a side menu, and of course a big cell for the body. I don't save as a template just a file and copy and paste it in the folder tree.

when I open the template to put it's content menu and other stuff I use the fp include page for all but the content. usually it's the same header and footer on each page and sometimes the left menu will change based on what type of page it is. I usually then put a new table in the content cell so I can get some cell padding.

when I want to change the menu I only have to change it on that one file and the change permeates through all other pages that use it.

HTH
All,

When doing a site ... I will create a "template" or layout of the site getting the
tables the way I want them etc ....

Once made, it is saved as "template" and used for all pages populating the content
inside for each page and saved as a different page name for each.

As you would imagine, making changes to each individual page is PIA .... how can
I make this "template" but have different content for each page, but update the
"template" and have it effect all pages?

I tried to save the "template" as a CSS .. that didn't work ... tried to do a include ..
that didn't work .. don't know what else to do.

TIA for any time saving tip on this matter.

D
 
-----Original Message-----
All,

When doing a site ... I will create a "template" or
layout of the site getting the tables the way I want
them etc ....

Once made, it is saved as "template" and used for all
pages populating the content inside for each page and
saved as a different page name for each.

As you would imagine, making changes to each individual
page is PIA ... how can I make this "template" but have
different content for each page, but update the
"template" and have it effect all pages?

I tried to save the "template" as a CSS .. that didn't
work ... tried to do a include ..
that didn't work .. don't know what else to do.

TIA for any time saving tip on this matter.
Click to expand...

Versions of FrontPage up through FP2002 have only limited
support for laying out pages in such a way that you can
mass-change the layout at a later time. The Shared Border
facility can replicate identical content to any side(s)
you want on a group of pages. But if you want each page
to display different content in a given border, you have
to program some kind of script to create the variations.
(Link Bars and page Banenrs, of course, are self-
adjusting).

Another alternative, which also requries programming, is
to write a single page that looks up some key in a
datbase, retrieves the corresponding data, and displays
it in a fixed layout. This is how Amazon.com, for
example, avoids hand-coding a Web page for each book.

Beyond that, you may need to wait for FrontPage 2003 or
run the beta. FP2003 has a feature called Dynamic Web
Templates that will probably do what you want.

Jim Buyens
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
(e-mail address removed)
http://www.interlacken.com
Author of:
*------------------------------------------------------*
|\----------------------------------------------------/|
|| Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out ||
|| Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out ||
|| Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition ||
|| Troubleshooting Microsoft FrontPage 2002 ||
|| Faster Smarter Beginning Programming ||
|| (All from Microsoft Press) ||
|/----------------------------------------------------\|
*------------------------------------------------------*
 
it sure will. I do it all the time and it provides much more flexibility than shared borders.
it works so well that I even use the fp include page on asp pages where I could just as easily use the asp include page function. why? because it's nice to be able to edit asp pages and see the layout. when you use the fp include page it's done at save time. the benefit to me is easier editing, and faster loads to the browser. the only draw back is that it results in a larger web site total size since the content of each include is actually written to each page it's used on. it's an ok trade for me because I'll pay for a bigger sized site rather than have slower page loads. don't get me wrong there is still a place for the asp include function, but for templates and the menus and headers I prefer the fp include page.

here are a couple of sites I've used the technique on:
www.poggi-jones.com
www.healthbusinessandpolicy.com

HTH
Thanks guys ...

When I create the template, its not saved as one .. just the HTM page
called template so I will know.

Once created the way I want with all graphics etc ... it stays the
same throughout all pages ... I dont want to change the columns
on each side or anything else ... just if I change the menu order or
if I want to include another graphic on the site, I can do it to one
page only and the whole site will be updated with it.

Editing the content of each page individually is ok .. its just when
I want to add a new graphic or something to the whole web I am
having trouble with.

Will Chris's suggestion do this?
Jim Buyens said:
-----Original Message-----
All,

When doing a site ... I will create a "template" or
layout of the site getting the tables the way I want
them etc ....

Once made, it is saved as "template" and used for all
pages populating the content inside for each page and
saved as a different page name for each.

As you would imagine, making changes to each individual
page is PIA ... how can I make this "template" but have
different content for each page, but update the
"template" and have it effect all pages?

I tried to save the "template" as a CSS .. that didn't
work ... tried to do a include ..
that didn't work .. don't know what else to do.

TIA for any time saving tip on this matter.
Click to expand...

Versions of FrontPage up through FP2002 have only limited
support for laying out pages in such a way that you can
mass-change the layout at a later time. The Shared Border
facility can replicate identical content to any side(s)
you want on a group of pages. But if you want each page
to display different content in a given border, you have
to program some kind of script to create the variations.
(Link Bars and page Banenrs, of course, are self-
adjusting).

Another alternative, which also requries programming, is
to write a single page that looks up some key in a
datbase, retrieves the corresponding data, and displays
it in a fixed layout. This is how Amazon.com, for
example, avoids hand-coding a Web page for each book.

Beyond that, you may need to wait for FrontPage 2003 or
run the beta. FP2003 has a feature called Dynamic Web
Templates that will probably do what you want.

Jim Buyens
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
(e-mail address removed)
http://www.interlacken.com
Author of:
*------------------------------------------------------*
|\----------------------------------------------------/|
|| Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out ||
|| Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out ||
|| Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition ||
|| Troubleshooting Microsoft FrontPage 2002 ||
|| Faster Smarter Beginning Programming ||
|| (All from Microsoft Press) ||
|/----------------------------------------------------\|
*------------------------------------------------------*
 
Hi D,

You may wish to consider using CSS layout instead of table layout.

--
Mike -- FrontPage MVP '97-'02
http://www.websunlimited.com
FrontPage Add-ins Since '97 2003 / 2002 / 2000 Compatible
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you think I'm doing a good job, let MS know at (e-mail address removed)

All,

When doing a site ... I will create a "template" or layout of the site getting the
tables the way I want them etc ....

Once made, it is saved as "template" and used for all pages populating the content
inside for each page and saved as a different page name for each.

As you would imagine, making changes to each individual page is PIA .... how can
I make this "template" but have different content for each page, but update the
"template" and have it effect all pages?

I tried to save the "template" as a CSS .. that didn't work ... tried to do a include ..
that didn't work .. don't know what else to do.

TIA for any time saving tip on this matter.

D
 
I believe that would be the most functional way of doing it and will be trying Chris's suggestion as well,
however, when I tried to do the CSS i had trouble getting the graphics in there the way I wanted, etc ...

Fouling something up, just don't know what ... and this 800 page book doesn't seem to clarify it much
for me either .... just dumb on this topic it seems.
Hi D,

You may wish to consider using CSS layout instead of table layout.

--
Mike -- FrontPage MVP '97-'02
http://www.websunlimited.com
FrontPage Add-ins Since '97 2003 / 2002 / 2000 Compatible
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you think I'm doing a good job, let MS know at (e-mail address removed)

All,

When doing a site ... I will create a "template" or layout of the site getting the
tables the way I want them etc ....

Once made, it is saved as "template" and used for all pages populating the content
inside for each page and saved as a different page name for each.

As you would imagine, making changes to each individual page is PIA .... how can
I make this "template" but have different content for each page, but update the
"template" and have it effect all pages?

I tried to save the "template" as a CSS .. that didn't work ... tried to do a include ..
that didn't work .. don't know what else to do.

TIA for any time saving tip on this matter.

D
 
D said:
Thanks guys ...

When I create the template, its not saved as one .. just the HTM page
called template so I will know.

Once created the way I want with all graphics etc ... it stays the
same throughout all pages ... I dont want to change the columns
on each side or anything else ... just if I change the menu order or
if I want to include another graphic on the site, I can do it to one
page only and the whole site will be updated with it.

Editing the content of each page individually is ok .. its just when
I want to add a new graphic or something to the whole web I am
having trouble with.
Click to expand...

If the area in question is something like a page heading or
sig line, create a page tht contains that material only
and then use the Include Page component to add it to each page.

The Include Page component copies the <body> section of the
included page into each page that includes it. If you change
the included file (i.e. add a graphic), FrontPage propagates
the changes to all the pages that use the include.

The restrictions are that line breaks always occur before and
after Include Page Components, and the included content can't
have "holes" where you insert content that varies for each page.
(Of course, you can put whatever variable content you want
*between* Include Page components.)

Jim Buyens
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
(e-mail address removed)
http://www.interlacken.com
Author of:
*------------------------------------------------------*
|\----------------------------------------------------/|
|| Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out ||
|| Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out ||
|| Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition ||
|| Troubleshooting Microsoft FrontPage 2002 ||
|| Faster Smarter Beginning Programming ||
|| (All from Microsoft Press) ||
|/----------------------------------------------------\|
*------------------------------------------------------*
 
there is a fantastic book called html utopia, designing sites without tables from www.sitepoint.com the example site is www.footbagfreaks.com
I've got the book but haven't had time to learn it. in fact I've "weaked out" and have done three sites with tables AFTER receiving the book! I really need to learn it/ use it. but it's a damn good book....what I've read from it at least.


I believe that would be the most functional way of doing it and will be trying Chris's suggestion as well,
however, when I tried to do the CSS i had trouble getting the graphics in there the way I wanted, etc ...

Fouling something up, just don't know what ... and this 800 page book doesn't seem to clarify it much
for me either .... just dumb on this topic it seems.
Hi D,

You may wish to consider using CSS layout instead of table layout.

--
Mike -- FrontPage MVP '97-'02
http://www.websunlimited.com
FrontPage Add-ins Since '97 2003 / 2002 / 2000 Compatible
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you think I'm doing a good job, let MS know at (e-mail address removed)

All,

When doing a site ... I will create a "template" or layout of the site getting the
tables the way I want them etc ....

Once made, it is saved as "template" and used for all pages populating the content
inside for each page and saved as a different page name for each.

As you would imagine, making changes to each individual page is PIA ... how can
I make this "template" but have different content for each page, but update the
"template" and have it effect all pages?

I tried to save the "template" as a CSS .. that didn't work ... tried to do a include ..
that didn't work .. don't know what else to do.

TIA for any time saving tip on this matter.

D
 
When you have time, take a look at both http://www.footbagfreaks.com and
http://www.sitepoint.com in NS 4.08, etc.

--

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, Forums, WebCircle,
MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================


there is a fantastic book called html utopia, designing sites without tables
from www.sitepoint.com the example site is www.footbagfreaks.com
I've got the book but haven't had time to learn it. in fact I've "weaked
out" and have done three sites with tables AFTER receiving the book! I
really need to learn it/ use it. but it's a damn good book....what I've
read from it at least.


I believe that would be the most functional way of doing it and will be
trying Chris's suggestion as well,
however, when I tried to do the CSS i had trouble getting the graphics in
there the way I wanted, etc ...

Fouling something up, just don't know what ... and this 800 page book
doesn't seem to clarify it much
for me either .... just dumb on this topic it seems.
Hi D,

You may wish to consider using CSS layout instead of table layout.

--
Mike -- FrontPage MVP '97-'02
http://www.websunlimited.com
FrontPage Add-ins Since '97 2003 / 2002 / 2000 Compatible
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------
If you think I'm doing a good job, let MS know at (e-mail address removed)

All,

When doing a site ... I will create a "template" or layout of the site
getting the
tables the way I want them etc ....

Once made, it is saved as "template" and used for all pages populating
the content
inside for each page and saved as a different page name for each.

As you would imagine, making changes to each individual page is PIA
.... how can
I make this "template" but have different content for each page, but
update the
"template" and have it effect all pages?

I tried to save the "template" as a CSS .. that didn't work ... tried
to do a include ..
that didn't work .. don't know what else to do.

TIA for any time saving tip on this matter.

D
 
I already tried with my crusty old Netscape 4.0something. I know, I know.
but if I start learning how to do it now, by the time I've got it down ie6
will seem "old" ;-)
 
Thomas A. Rowe said:
When you have time, take a look at both http://www.footbagfreaks.com and
http://www.sitepoint.com in NS 4.08, etc.
Click to expand...

Hmm - I see what you mean! (I viewed http://www.footbagfreaks.com with
NS4.61, before seeing it in its intended state with MSIE6.)

Is that because NS4 cannot handle 'normal' CSS?

I've used CSS on the CUPOD site I'm developing for a client at
http://www.cupod-mentoring.com/ But one target is universities, where
there are apparently still a lot of NS4 users ;-(
 
Personally I don't worry about NN 4.x very much anymore. I do make sure that
my sites function without the CSS appplied but I don't really care if it
looks the same or not. I think www.sitepoint.com degrafes quite well in NN
4.8 (I don't have 4.08 which has the worst support of any known browser out
there for CSS and that includes browser that don't support CSS at all).

The www.footbagfreaks.com doesn't look good at all but the site is still
functional. I'd probably want a bit better presentation but given the small
base of my visitors that use NN 4.x I could live with it especially since
that is how it would render on my Pocket PC or a Palm or a cellphone. I
really hate looking at table based sites on my Pocket PC which is causing me
to move even further away from using tables for layout.

I do have 2 sites that I will probably keep in table based layout for at
least a bit longer because they do have a significant user base of NN 4.x
users (primarily 4.6) because they are the sites for two SIGs (Special
Interest Groups) at HAL-PC. I have hopes of being able to change them over
inthe next year since they have finally updated the computers in the lab to
XP and IE 6 instead of the Windows 98/NN 4.6 that has been the standard
there for years.

My company site's homepage www.wiserways.com looks different in NN 4.x than
it does in complaint browsers but internal pages look the same. Other sites
using pure CSS layout look the same in NN 4.8 as they do in complaint
browsers such as www.pinespc.org there the only page that displays
differently is the one about the preschool program. I could not get NN to
display the child playing catch the way I wanted so I just hid it from that
browser. If either of those break in NN 4.08 I'd appreciate knowing it but I
doubt I'd change either one because the user base of that version of NN is
not worth it.
 
Thanks, don't need any other pages looked at to my knowledge.

I'll have to take a look at the preschool page and see what messed it up.
When I last looked there wasn't a problem with the graphics and the text
clipping but I've turned the site over to people from that church to
maintain. Anything is possible when someone with limited experience/training
maintains a site.

Those are my two 'example' sites that I point to whenever someone tells me
it isn't possible to use CSS only for layout and have it work cross
browser/cross platform. You can but you do have to be careful and willng to
tolerate some differences in display. I would have preferred to float the
www.pinespc.org columns but NN 4.x doesn't handle floats very well and can
do strange things so I used absolute positioning. I went ahead and used
floats on my home page www.wiserways.com and hid the floats from NN 4.x
which is why the text is vertical there instead of in 3 columns.

I've check Windows with NN 4.8 & 6.2, Opera 6 & 7, IE 6 (wish you could have
mulitple versions of IE on the same system without resortig to VMware), on
the Mac with IE 5.2 and Safari (haven't gotten around to reinstalling
Mozilla there) and on my Pocket PC.. I've also tested with both CSS and
Javascript disabled which isn' t pretty but is functional. Don't have a
Linux system to check on but since Safari uses the KHTML kernel and Mozilla
is pretty consistent across platforms I'm not worrying about those users.

Wouldn't it be nice if all the browsers and editors would comply wiht
standards so we could quit worrying about and testing in so many different
browsers/platforms.
 
I'm glad you said that. Thomas's post was echoing in my head and again I
looked with the old nn4.2 and it really didn't look too bad. it looked
nothing like what it was supposed to but it was still usable. there are
some big money sites like espn and others that have gone totally css and
they don't seem to worry about it too much.
now all I have to do is learn the css layout well enough that I'm not afraid
to charge for it and quit using tables ;-)

I would honestly recommend to any new designer to learn css before you learn
tables so you don't get stuck in the past like me. it's really hard to stop
using tables once you've really got them down pat.

IMHO
 
if every web designer would only design for one browser, we could force the
world to comply with US ;-)
 
The key is that a site that has a lot of money can afford to design for a
specific set of users, can you or your clients?

My clients don't want hear that the design of their site limit potential
sales/income.

--

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, Forums, WebCircle,
MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
 
I converted the www.pinespc site from table to css positioning. In the
process I reduced the page from 27k (exclusive of images) to 5k plus 3k for
the css for a total 8k. The reduction of file size without changing a single
image was 19k.

I then replaced the image based rollovers (just text in the images not
buttons) with pure css rollovers and that removed another 10k. True the CSS
rollovers don't work in NN 4.x but we could live with that they still get
visted link changes. Total reduction in file size exclusive of images 29k
with little visible difference.

It works in all browsers tested including NN and with the exception of one
page (preschool.html) where I hide images it does look relatively the same
in all of them. To display the preschool page where it works corss browser
requires a horrendous amont of nested table code. I know because I took it
all out, the page went from 32k to 8k add in the stylesheets including the
one that displays the images to compliant browsers and you are up to 13k

On this site each page was reduced between 30-45% resulting in faster page
load and lower bandwidth usage so why shouldn't I have used standards
compliant CSS, XHTML and have a site that fully complies with Section 508
and AAA Level Accessibility with the content separated from presentation and
that will let me view the church calendar on my PocketPC/cell phone in a
nice vertical arrangment instead of the scrollbars a table would have forced
on those visitors?
 
if I simply agree with you (and there is no reason I shouldn't) I don't
really need to learn anything. I'm already a good "table maker". why
then,do I feel so drawn to the idea of table-less design? perhaps I've
become irrational. it must have rubbed off from one of the customers.
 
All I am really saying is that if you use technology that excludes site
visitors from a business or commercial related website based on their
browser chose, that you are potentially losing valuable clients or
customers.

The goal of all web developers should be to build web site that look good,
function good in any browser that a visitor may be using. However if the
developer want to waste time building specific pages for specific browser,
then so be it, since it is so easy to build a single site that works in all
graphic based browsers.

I agree that extra work is required to develop sites for text readers, cell
phones and PDA, etc. but that depends on the intended audience, and in those
cases, CSS may be the best overall solution. Personally I would redirect
these types of users to a specific set of content tailored to their device,
so that they get the best experience from the site.

I do not see CSS as a cure-all, it is just another technology tool to be
used.

--

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, Forums, WebCircle,
MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
 
Back
Top