Stay away from Canon products!

[ato_zee]

Fairly recently someone managed, in Court, to get a Refund, for a new Motor
Car, and his legal expenses, after he had refused to allow the dealer to
"Recify" its faults. Car Warranties have suddenly become a lot more
flexible, no more insistence on Servicing by a Dealership during the
Warranty, etc.

It only takes one dedicated individual to "Push For" his rights by
litigation, to make these big companies start behaving more reasonably.

But does this apply to all or higher courts, that is "Set a precedent"?
Next person to try it might find that the mfr decides he has a weak
case and is prepared to take it all the way, at great cost if you lose,
or have refused a reasonable settlement, having caused the mfr to
incur substantial legal fees.

 

[measekite]

I used to think this was the case (that refurbs could be more
reliable) but recently I've come to see how many are dealt with. The
problem with inkjet printers most commonly, are head clogs,

and from non OEM ink.

 

[Taliesyn]

and from non OEM ink.

Incorrect - as always! Canon, for example, specifically put "Cleaning"
and "Deep Cleaning" cycles for removing the sludge of its own inks from
the nozzles.

Canon also made the printhead "User Replaceable" because they knew it
would fail sooner or later with their own inks.

Art indicated so correctly that "The problem with inkjet printers most
commonly, are head clogs." But you can virtually eliminate any clogging
by simply printing something at least once a week. Don't let the printer
sit idle for months. That's the worst thing imaginable. When I'm going
on vacation I will be removing the print heads from my printers and
flushing them with distilled water until no ink color is visible on the
paper towel soaking up the flush.

-Taliesyn

 

[measekite]

Incorrect - as always! Canon, for example, specifically put "Cleaning"
and "Deep Cleaning" cycles for removing the sludge of its own inks from
the nozzles.

Canon also made the printhead "User Replaceable" because they knew it
would fail sooner or later with their own inks.

Art indicated so correctly that "The problem with inkjet printers most
commonly, are head clogs." But you can virtually eliminate any clogging
by simply printing something at least once a week. Don't let the printer
sit idle for months. That's the worst thing imaginable. When I'm going
on vacation I will be removing the print heads from my printers and
flushing them with distilled water until no ink color is visible on the
paper towel soaking up the flush.

-Taliesyn

I do not waste my time and do the stuff you need to do because you use
inferior ink. I left my printer idle for a month without doing
anything. I just printed after that without doing any cleaning. Too
bad you have to keep busy to spend a few cents less on inferior products
that you cannot even indentify.

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Our province has the same type of wording in our Sale of Goods Act.
The wording also states that the product must conform with the type of
reliability and service a reasonable purchaser would expect. Of course,
this is left to some interpretation, and the Courts often end up saddled
with determining what "reasonable" means.

As you state, many retailers keep themselves minimally informed of this
law, and tend to imply that the warranty is a contract between the
purchaser and the manufacturer, but those of us who know better can make
demands. Unfortunately, it sometimes does take a court case to impress
them (I've had to do so several times)... One big chain (was Canadian
owned by now US owned) learned this the hard way when I brought them to
court.

They actually cleaned up their act considerably after my case, when the
Judge warned them if she ever saw them in her courtroom again about such
issues she'd not be amused. Oh, did I mention I won the case ;-)

Art

 

[Irwin Peckinloomer]

I bought a Canon Pixma 160 printer/copier/scanner, and three weeks
later, it quit working. The instruction book says that the warranty
includes "Instant exchange service", and that a replacement wil be
sent out "via 2nd day air frieght service." When I called, I was told
that they would send me a replacement, and I would recieve it in "two
to five working days." Six working days later, I had my replacement
REFURBISHED printer!

???? What's the problem??? If they had come to your house & fixed your
original printer, you would have had ..... think about this ... a
refurbished printer! That's what you got. Does the refurbished printer
work? What more do you expect? If your printer had never broken, it
would still be a used printer now, not a new one.

 

[Irwin Peckinloomer]

and from non OEM ink.

Are you still posting this crap?

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Just as a extension to this information, Canon heads will fail
eventually regardless of what inks are used. They are designed to
eventually fail. I don't say this as an indictment of Canon heads, but
they are thermal design, and all thermal head designs eventually burn
out, just like a incandescent lamp filament does. The repeated pulsing
of the resistance part of the head, which heats to vaporize the ink do
not last forever. It is actually quite amazing how long the heads do
last, considering the thermal head design.

Piezo heads last longer because they use a mechanical method to move the
inks, and they don't head, and this is a more repeatable process. Even
they eventually will fail, but they have a much longer lifespan that
thermal heads.

My point is simply that thermal heads will fail over time with any ink,
and aren't necessarily more apt to fail with 3rd party inks over OEM inks.

Art

 

[Taliesyn]

Just as a extension to this information, Canon heads will fail
eventually regardless of what inks are used. They are designed to
eventually fail. I don't say this as an indictment of Canon heads, but
they are thermal design, and all thermal head designs eventually burn
out, just like a incandescent lamp filament does. The repeated pulsing
of the resistance part of the head, which heats to vaporize the ink do
not last forever. It is actually quite amazing how long the heads do
last, considering the thermal head design.

I have taken measures to prolong head life. I now wait several minutes
between printing each photo and take occasional breaks when I print my
booklets (in 'high quality') of up to 90 pages. Seems to be working as
I have accumulated over 6 years of total service with my 3 Canon
printers without head failure.

Piezo heads last longer because they use a mechanical method to move the
inks, and they don't head, and this is a more repeatable process. Even
they eventually will fail, but they have a much longer lifespan that
thermal heads.

My point is simply that thermal heads will fail over time with any ink,
and aren't necessarily more apt to fail with 3rd party inks over OEM inks.

This is true. I only use 3rd party inks and have witnessed no problems
with failure or need to manually force head cleaning. I did have an
original bum printhead that failed after a month, but the replacement is
working many years later - with the same inks.

-Taliesyn

 

[Talker]

???? What's the problem??? If they had come to your house & fixed your
original printer, you would have had ..... think about this ... a
refurbished printer! That's what you got. Does the refurbished printer
work? What more do you expect? If your printer had never broken, it
would still be a used printer now, not a new one.

I think that what he's upset about is that the printer he bought
had three weeks worth of wear and tear on the components, and the one
they sent him could have had 8 or 9 months worth of wear and tear on
it. If the refurbished unit had been used in an office somewhere, it
could have been used to print 40-50 pages a day. In 8 months, that
could total 8,000 pages.
Had they come to his house and fixed it, or repaired his unit and
sent it back to him, it would still only have three weeks usage on it.

Talker

 

[Bob Headrick]

Just as a extension to this information, Canon heads will fail eventually
regardless of what inks are used. They are designed to eventually fail.
I don't say this as an indictment of Canon heads, but they are thermal
design, and all thermal head designs eventually burn out, just like a
incandescent lamp filament does. The repeated pulsing of the resistance
part of the head, which heats to vaporize the ink do not last forever. It
is actually quite amazing how long the heads do last, considering the
thermal head design.

Piezo heads last longer because they use a mechanical method to move the
inks, and they don't head, and this is a more repeatable process. Even
they eventually will fail, but they have a much longer lifespan that
thermal heads.

Maybe, maybe not. The life of a thermal printhead is not typically set by
the resistor life, especially as the nozzles (and the resistors) have become
smaller and operate on much less individual power. Often the failure
mechanism relates to the various layers of circuitry and nozzle plate which
are held together with some form of adhesive. Eventually the ink may attack
these layers, causing failure. Inks not formulated and tested specifically
with the materials used may have a higher failure rate. It is also possible
for ink particles to become clogged in the passageways causing failures,
which piezo heads can be more prone to due to the relatively less energy
available in the firing mechanism to clear them. I have not seen any test
data that would indicate that piezo printheads are inherently more reliable
than thermal. A lot depends on the care given to the design of the
printing system.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

 

[measekite]

Irwin Peckinloomer wrote:

I bought a Canon Pixma 160 printer/copier/scanner, and three weeks later, it quit working. The instruction book says that the warranty includes "Instant exchange service", and that a replacement wil be sent out "via 2nd day air frieght service." When I called, I was told that they would send me a replacement, and I would recieve it in "two to five working days." Six working days later, I had my replacement REFURBISHED printer!



???? What's the problem??? If they had come to your house & fixed your original printer, you would have had ..... think about this ... a refurbished printer! That's what you got.


No it is NOT.  He got a brand new printer that only he used and only he knows the condition of that was repaired.  It is what he bought.  I guess the refillers think different that is why they decide in favor of cost over quality.  That OK except they do not admit it.


Does the refurbished printer work? What more do you expect? If your printer had never broken, it would still be a used printer now, not a new one.


Well then it does not pay to be alive cause as soon as you get fully used you are dead.

 

[measekite]

Just as a extension to this information, Canon heads will fail
eventually regardless of what inks are used. They are designed to
eventually fail. I don't say this as an indictment of Canon heads,
but they are thermal design, and all thermal head designs eventually
burn out, just like a incandescent lamp filament does. The repeated
pulsing of the resistance part of the head, which heats to vaporize
the ink do not last forever. It is actually quite amazing how long
the heads do last, considering the thermal head design.

Piezo heads last longer because they use a mechanical method to move
the inks, and they don't head, and this is a more repeatable process.
Even they eventually will fail, but

will clog sooner then Canon. Most often the pigmented printers that use
the crap ink.

 

[measekite]

I have taken measures to prolong head life. I now wait several minutes
between printing each photo and take occasional breaks when I print my
booklets (in 'high quality') of up to 90 pages. Seems to be working as
I have accumulated over 6 years of total service with my 3 Canon
printers without head failure.



This is true. I only use 3rd party inks and have witnessed no problems
with failure or need to manually force head cleaning. I did have an
original bum printhead that failed after a month,

We all know that was due to inferior inks.

 

[measekite]

Talker wrote:

On Mon, 28 May 2007 10:21:39 GMT, Irwin Peckinloomer <[email protected]> wrote:



I bought a Canon Pixma 160 printer/copier/scanner, and three weeks later, it quit working. The instruction book says that the warranty includes "Instant exchange service", and that a replacement wil be sent out "via 2nd day air frieght service." When I called, I was told that they would send me a replacement, and I would recieve it in "two to five working days." Six working days later, I had my replacement REFURBISHED printer!



???? What's the problem??? If they had come to your house & fixed your original printer, you would have had ..... think about this ... a refurbished printer! That's what you got. Does the refurbished printer work? What more do you expect? If your printer had never broken, it would still be a used printer now, not a new one.



I think that what he's upset about is that the printer he bought had three weeks worth of wear and tear on the components, and the one they sent him could have had 8 or 9 months worth of wear and tear on it. If the refurbished unit had been used in an office somewhere, it could have been used to print 40-50 pages a day. In 8 months, that could total 8,000 pages. Had they come to his house and fixed it, or repaired his unit and sent it back to him, it would still only have three weeks usage on it. Talker


I agree with you but you must realize that many posters here cannot understand good logic.

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Using the same logic, the next time you go to have your car repaired,
tell them to give you any old car on the lot, as long as it's the same
model, regardless of mileage, how well it was cared for, how rusty the
body, how many holes there are in the carpet, if the seats have splits
in them, etc, because, since it was the same model, it doesn't much
matter, as long as it starts and you can drive it home.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

I won't argue that the current piezo head designs, especially with the
now popular faster drying pigment inks don't clog, because that would be
an unfair comment. The can and do. In general, if one considers most
cases of clogging as repairable conditions with a bit of home
maintenance, I would say that piezo technology can provide a longer
total life of the head than thermal. Clogging of piezo heads when used
with reasonable quality dye inks is usually a relatively simple matter
to resolve, although it may cause wasted ink and other bothers, but the
head itself can usually be restored to as new output.

Do HP, Canon or Lexmark, as the main producers of thermal heads, provide
a mean estimated lifespan in terms of number of droplets of ink per
nozzle before failure for their heads? Epson, as a piezo device
manufacturer used to provide numbers for each nozzle, although I note
they have gone away from publicizing that information in recent years.

For instance, they used to regularly spec their heads with reliability
of "2,000 million dots per nozzle", so I was wondering if the thermal
companies do or have done something similar for their "permanent" head
designs (of course, this assumes "quality" inks are used, if that is an
issue in head life for these types of heads).

I have certainly seen some catastrophic failures of Epson heads, so I am
not suggesting they are without defects or lifespans, but they are
designed differently, and I would therefore be quite interested if there
are any numbers around to suggest that some thermal heads outlast piezo
heads, and if so, whose and under which conditions.

Art

 

[Wayne]

Using the same logic, the next time you go to have your car repaired,
tell them to give you any old car on the lot, as long as it's the same
model, regardless of mileage, how well it was cared for, how rusty the
body, how many holes there are in the carpet, if the seats have splits
in them, etc, because, since it was the same model, it doesn't much
matter, as long as it starts and you can drive it home.

Art

Really dumb comment, even by usenet standards.

The printer was returned, but has been "refurbished", meaning restored to
appear as new, to give same service as new, tested as new, and continues
the same warranty as the original printer it replaces.

 

[measekite]

Wayne wrote:

Using the same logic, the next time you go to have your car repaired, tell them to give you any old car on the lot, as long as it's the same model, regardless of mileage, how well it was cared for, how rusty the body, how many holes there are in the carpet, if the seats have splits in them, etc, because, since it was the same model, it doesn't much matter, as long as it starts and you can drive it home. Art



Really dumb comment, even by usenet standards.


I do agree with the above comment but refurbished is not what the person bought.  He bought a new machine that was presented to him as being not defective.  What is replaced should be what the person bought. 


The printer was returned, but has been "refurbished", meaning restored to appear as new, to give same service as new, tested as new, and continues the same warranty as the original printer it replaces.


but it is not new and not what the purchaser paid for.

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Sorry Wayne, you really don't get it, do you?

These printers have a limited lifespan in terms of duty cycle and usage.

With light usage, they might last 2-3-4 years or more, but one with
heavy use or even abuse, might not even last the one year warranty
before requiring another replacement. I use my technology gently and
with respect, and in general, it lasts well over the warranty period.
Some people grind their equipment into the ground, and if they are lucky
if the product makes it through the warranty period.

"Refurbished" doesn't mean the product is "as new". It means the item
passes some basic functionality tests and some simple cosmetic
standards, nothing more. The analogy I offered isn't that far removed
from the printer exchange they offer.

I don't believe my comments are at all "dumb" (a word that is
mis-appropriately used, as it actually means "mute" or unable to speak)
"even by usenet standards". BTU, I keep pretty high standards "even on
usenet".

Art