M
Miha Markic [MVP C#]
I am not sure about this - ado.net is an open architecture and most of guys
here work with very different databases.
I am not sure about this - ado.net is an open architecture and most of guys
here work with very different databases.
C
Cor Ligthert [MVP]
Miha,
It is my opinion as I wrote, am I free to write it?
Or should I first sent a message to Frans Bouma to tell my opinion in these
newsgroup. I thought that everybody was free to post to a UseNet newsgroup,
from which is this is one and as far as I know are they not moderated by
Frans Bouma or anybody else.
Where as direct answer to your message I gladly will believe you (and sure
as it comes by instance from you) however I see to often biased answers in
these dotnet newsgroups, that makes it in my opinion difficult to get a
complete correct answer if you are not a regular to these newsgroups.
Cor.
Cor
It is my opinion as I wrote, am I free to write it?
Or should I first sent a message to Frans Bouma to tell my opinion in these
newsgroup. I thought that everybody was free to post to a UseNet newsgroup,
from which is this is one and as far as I know are they not moderated by
Frans Bouma or anybody else.
Where as direct answer to your message I gladly will believe you (and sure
as it comes by instance from you) however I see to often biased answers in
these dotnet newsgroups, that makes it in my opinion difficult to get a
complete correct answer if you are not a regular to these newsgroups.
Cor.
Cor
M
Mark Rae
Remind me what "MVP" stands for...
C
Cor Ligthert [MVP]
Miha,
In this kind of "a better than b" questions of course where I am answering
you direct in my previous message.
Cor
In this kind of "a better than b" questions of course where I am answering
you direct in my previous message.
Cor
M
Mark Rae
You'd be surprised... (no I'm not mentioning names)
At the end of 2004 / beginning of 2005 I contracted for an extremely
successful international telephony company who are a heavy user of mySQL.
They had never had any significant problems with it. That contract was my
first exposure to it, and I found the NavCat GUI and CoreLabs native .NET
data provider to be both excellent companion products.
Alternatively, I have also contracted for a company who evaluated the then
current version of the product, but rejected it because it didn't support
OPENQUERY...
Horses for courses, as we say...
D
David Portas
See Frank Bouma's first reply to the OP for an explanation of MySQL's
popularity. The key point is that it's used in situations where ACID
properties are relatively unimportant. I'm not claiming personal
experience of MySQL - I have none. However, the weight of evidence from
colleagues and market research seem to back this up. No one should be
using a database without transaction support where data integrity is a
requirement. So while it may have a track record of stablility in
non-mission critical or read-only applications, to say that MySQL is
"reliable" without any further qualification is certainly misleading.
It hasn't until very recently had the reliability features that are
usually taken for granted in any client-server database.
popularity. The key point is that it's used in situations where ACID
properties are relatively unimportant. I'm not claiming personal
experience of MySQL - I have none. However, the weight of evidence from
colleagues and market research seem to back this up. No one should be
using a database without transaction support where data integrity is a
requirement. So while it may have a track record of stablility in
non-mission critical or read-only applications, to say that MySQL is
"reliable" without any further qualification is certainly misleading.
It hasn't until very recently had the reliability features that are
usually taken for granted in any client-server database.
D
David Portas
See Frank Bouma's first reply to the OP for an explanation of MySQL's
popularity. The key point is that it's used in situations where ACID
properties are relatively unimportant. I'm not claiming personal
experience of MySQL - I have none. However, the weight of anecdotal
evidence and market research reports seem to back this up. No one
should be using a read-write database without transaction support where
data integrity is a requirement. So while it may have a track record of
stablility in non-mission critical or read-only applications, to say
that MySQL is "reliable" without any further qualification is very
misleading. It hasn't until very recently had the reliability features
that are usually taken for granted in any client-server database
therefore it doesn't have the long history in that department that
other products have. That's why many serious users still treat MySQL
with scepticism.
popularity. The key point is that it's used in situations where ACID
properties are relatively unimportant. I'm not claiming personal
experience of MySQL - I have none. However, the weight of anecdotal
evidence and market research reports seem to back this up. No one
should be using a read-write database without transaction support where
data integrity is a requirement. So while it may have a track record of
stablility in non-mission critical or read-only applications, to say
that MySQL is "reliable" without any further qualification is very
misleading. It hasn't until very recently had the reliability features
that are usually taken for granted in any client-server database
therefore it doesn't have the long history in that department that
other products have. That's why many serious users still treat MySQL
with scepticism.
C
CT
Point taken.
G
Guest
Why more popular? Here are a couple of reasons:
1. As it is less costly, many ISPs throw it in for free, while they charge
for SQL Server.
2. Religious reasons, meaning
a) One is committed to the Open Source "faith"
b) One is firmly anti-Microsoft
3. Ignorance.
a) Lack of knowledge of the low cost offerings from MS, like MSDE
b) Lack of understanding that the 5 connection limit of MSDE does
not limit to just five users
4. Cases where the app scales enough for MySQL, but will overtax MSDE
AND the user does not have the money to go with full blown SQL
Server. There are other variations of this argument.
Of the reasons, 4 is the only truly wise reason. The rest are largely
emotional in nature.
MySQL is a fine database. Compared to MSDE it has some functionality limits,
but MSDE has some governors on it that MySQL does not. For non-Enterprise
level apps (and some Enterprise level apps) MySQL scales just fine. I am more
fond of some other open source/shared source type databases (Firebird comes
to mind), but MySQL has wider exposure, esp. with ISPs.
As for which you develop in, I would look at the following:
1. Where are you planning to put the app? If an ISP, check what DBs they
have available.
2. What features do you need? Look at the complete app plan
(maintainability, security, availability, scale, etc.).
3. What can you afford to spend? Compare to the costs: development, learning
curve, deployment, etc.
I would also look at SQL Server 2005 Express if this is a longer term
project, as it may change your mind. It is far more full featured than MSDE.
--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA
***************************
Think Outside the Box!
***************************
1. As it is less costly, many ISPs throw it in for free, while they charge
for SQL Server.
2. Religious reasons, meaning
a) One is committed to the Open Source "faith"
b) One is firmly anti-Microsoft
3. Ignorance.
a) Lack of knowledge of the low cost offerings from MS, like MSDE
b) Lack of understanding that the 5 connection limit of MSDE does
not limit to just five users
4. Cases where the app scales enough for MySQL, but will overtax MSDE
AND the user does not have the money to go with full blown SQL
Server. There are other variations of this argument.
Of the reasons, 4 is the only truly wise reason. The rest are largely
emotional in nature.
MySQL is a fine database. Compared to MSDE it has some functionality limits,
but MSDE has some governors on it that MySQL does not. For non-Enterprise
level apps (and some Enterprise level apps) MySQL scales just fine. I am more
fond of some other open source/shared source type databases (Firebird comes
to mind), but MySQL has wider exposure, esp. with ISPs.
As for which you develop in, I would look at the following:
1. Where are you planning to put the app? If an ISP, check what DBs they
have available.
2. What features do you need? Look at the complete app plan
(maintainability, security, availability, scale, etc.).
3. What can you afford to spend? Compare to the costs: development, learning
curve, deployment, etc.
I would also look at SQL Server 2005 Express if this is a longer term
project, as it may change your mind. It is far more full featured than MSDE.
--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA
***************************
Think Outside the Box!
***************************
W
W.G. Ryan - MVP
Cor:
I dont' want to fan the flames here. You are definitely entitled to your
opinion and from what I read, Frans wasn't implying you weren't. Understand
though that because of the way you phrase some of your responses, on more
than a few occasssions it really does sound as though your telling people to
not post in a newsgroup. I'm not criticizing your English or anything, G*d
knows it's better than my Dutch, but all my point is is that they way you
phrase things sometimes, particular about where and what to post, it often
comes off as quite aggressive. If you look at most of the people here, Me,
Miha, Sahil, Frans, Mark, Angel, Sushil, Kevin, David, Val, Ken etc, you
won't find one single post in respect to where to post something. If
someone asked me where the best place was to answer, I'd certianly tell
them. If they weren't getting any answers and were complaining about that
fact, i might point them to somewhere that could help - but outside of that,
I think it's ill advised. Mainly b/c the possibility of misunderstanding.
So you run the risk of alienating people or angering them (which has
happened more than a few times) vs at best, pointing them somewhere that
they are probably already aware of. The risk compared to the benefit is
extremely costly. We both know some other people do this frequently in
other newsgroups but no one does it in this one. And I'd honestly ask, "Are
those newsgroups better b/c they have people doing that?" I think the only
answer you can come to is "No".
This in and of itself has the possibility of starting a holy war but i
honestly see very very little value in trying to enforce newsgroup etiquette
unless there is a big problem with it. And in this case, it's a perfectly
legitimate thing to ask. The newsgroup is ADO.NEt which is a technology
that spans Oracle, DB2, Access, Sql Server CE and Sql Server just to name a
few. Asking about a better implementation is definitely valid b/c which DB
you use will probably have very serious consequences, for better or for
worse, down the road. I'm pretty biased in favor of Microsoft, but there
are definitely cases where I'd recommend Oracle for instance . But the
merits of each system and Why one makes claims about going with one RDBMS
over another is definitely something that is beneficial.
in know I got a little long winded, but honestly, if you chose to stop
making any sort of comments in respect to the appropriateness of where
someone posts, I can guarantee that no on in this newsgroup will be upset by
it. It's something that typically ends up with someone getting mad and
provides very little value at best.
I dont' want to fan the flames here. You are definitely entitled to your
opinion and from what I read, Frans wasn't implying you weren't. Understand
though that because of the way you phrase some of your responses, on more
than a few occasssions it really does sound as though your telling people to
not post in a newsgroup. I'm not criticizing your English or anything, G*d
knows it's better than my Dutch, but all my point is is that they way you
phrase things sometimes, particular about where and what to post, it often
comes off as quite aggressive. If you look at most of the people here, Me,
Miha, Sahil, Frans, Mark, Angel, Sushil, Kevin, David, Val, Ken etc, you
won't find one single post in respect to where to post something. If
someone asked me where the best place was to answer, I'd certianly tell
them. If they weren't getting any answers and were complaining about that
fact, i might point them to somewhere that could help - but outside of that,
I think it's ill advised. Mainly b/c the possibility of misunderstanding.
So you run the risk of alienating people or angering them (which has
happened more than a few times) vs at best, pointing them somewhere that
they are probably already aware of. The risk compared to the benefit is
extremely costly. We both know some other people do this frequently in
other newsgroups but no one does it in this one. And I'd honestly ask, "Are
those newsgroups better b/c they have people doing that?" I think the only
answer you can come to is "No".
This in and of itself has the possibility of starting a holy war but i
honestly see very very little value in trying to enforce newsgroup etiquette
unless there is a big problem with it. And in this case, it's a perfectly
legitimate thing to ask. The newsgroup is ADO.NEt which is a technology
that spans Oracle, DB2, Access, Sql Server CE and Sql Server just to name a
few. Asking about a better implementation is definitely valid b/c which DB
you use will probably have very serious consequences, for better or for
worse, down the road. I'm pretty biased in favor of Microsoft, but there
are definitely cases where I'd recommend Oracle for instance . But the
merits of each system and Why one makes claims about going with one RDBMS
over another is definitely something that is beneficial.
in know I got a little long winded, but honestly, if you chose to stop
making any sort of comments in respect to the appropriateness of where
someone posts, I can guarantee that no on in this newsgroup will be upset by
it. It's something that typically ends up with someone getting mad and
provides very little value at best.
M
Miha Markic [MVP C#]
Cor Ligthert said:
Am I not?
C
Cor Ligthert [MVP]
Bill,
Let me tell that I am sick of moderators as you and Frans which like in
these newsgroups to flame people just because what they think that they are
writing, however not about the fact, but only doing that with a lot of
bullshit what is nowhere written by the person they accuse.
You have my email address, while it is even fully open. If you think that,
you have to write those things, than sent them by email.
You can disagree with me, that helping people with showing them a better
place to get there information is prohibited. As long as you cannot show me
with good documention that fact of you, than I will keep trying to help
people with that. I nowhere as you forever intent, do tell people not to
send to any newsgroup or even am impolite in that, that idea is only in
your mind.
I find it however repulsive that you accuse Ken with whom I write almost 5
mail messages a day, from whom you tell that he writes behind my back bad
messages to you about me, this for the same for other people who are
included in your message. If they want to discuss things with me, than they
have my open email address.
However, there is at least one person in your message who has written me by
mail that he was reacting on the message from others as you and Frans,
however after reading all, made by mail his apologized by me because he
could not find any thing wrong written by *me*.
I do not like if answers as you do solicitating for more information about
solely MDI question, normally I answer most questions as they are slightly
related to the newsgroup. However, MDI has nothing to do with AdoNet. In my
opinion are you destructing with that the quality of the search ability for
AdoNet problems from this newsgroup.
The last I had not written without this message from you, Moreover, I would
not even had given a reaction on that.
Cor
Let me tell that I am sick of moderators as you and Frans which like in
these newsgroups to flame people just because what they think that they are
writing, however not about the fact, but only doing that with a lot of
bullshit what is nowhere written by the person they accuse.
You have my email address, while it is even fully open. If you think that,
you have to write those things, than sent them by email.
You can disagree with me, that helping people with showing them a better
place to get there information is prohibited. As long as you cannot show me
with good documention that fact of you, than I will keep trying to help
people with that. I nowhere as you forever intent, do tell people not to
send to any newsgroup or even am impolite in that, that idea is only in
your mind.
I find it however repulsive that you accuse Ken with whom I write almost 5
mail messages a day, from whom you tell that he writes behind my back bad
messages to you about me, this for the same for other people who are
included in your message. If they want to discuss things with me, than they
have my open email address.
However, there is at least one person in your message who has written me by
mail that he was reacting on the message from others as you and Frans,
however after reading all, made by mail his apologized by me because he
could not find any thing wrong written by *me*.
I do not like if answers as you do solicitating for more information about
solely MDI question, normally I answer most questions as they are slightly
related to the newsgroup. However, MDI has nothing to do with AdoNet. In my
opinion are you destructing with that the quality of the search ability for
AdoNet problems from this newsgroup.
The last I had not written without this message from you, Moreover, I would
not even had given a reaction on that.
Cor
C
Cor Ligthert [MVP]
Miha,
Or anybody else as long as it is not something as abuse, which I have never
seen that you did that. While you know that I read many messages in this
AdoNet newsgroup.
Cor
Did I ever tell that to you. I tried only to explain.
Or anybody else as long as it is not something as abuse, which I have never
seen that you did that. While you know that I read many messages in this
AdoNet newsgroup.
Cor
C
Cor Ligthert [MVP]
Bill,
Forget my message about Ken and others. I had read it in the continuous way
as you have written this. I was so disappointed, that I did not read even
the rest of the sentence what is broken on a new line in my newsreader.
In that your sentence is however wrong. I thought to remember me that I had
seen David telling people in the same way as try to do it, that there are
places where they can get better information. You cannot take Kevin in that,
his duty is to help as soon as possible.
At least I know another person who helps people with telling them that the
question is not Adonet related. Mostly in a less friendly way as I try to do
by the way, however he is free to take his own way for that. It is not to me
to tell what is good or wrong. If I would discuss that with him, than I
would do that by email by the way.
The rest sustains.
Cor
Forget my message about Ken and others. I had read it in the continuous way
as you have written this. I was so disappointed, that I did not read even
the rest of the sentence what is broken on a new line in my newsreader.
In that your sentence is however wrong. I thought to remember me that I had
seen David telling people in the same way as try to do it, that there are
places where they can get better information. You cannot take Kevin in that,
his duty is to help as soon as possible.
At least I know another person who helps people with telling them that the
question is not Adonet related. Mostly in a less friendly way as I try to do
by the way, however he is free to take his own way for that. It is not to me
to tell what is good or wrong. If I would discuss that with him, than I
would do that by email by the way.
The rest sustains.
Cor
W
W.G. Ryan - MVP
Cor:
I haven't flamed you at all. I don't really know how to respond to you b/c
most of what you said is patently incorrect. Reread my message. I didn't
accuse Ken of anything. All I said was that he doesn't go around telling
people where to post. Seriously Cor - how many times have people gotten
pissed off at you b/c of your rude comments about posting to other groups?
How many different people in the MVP program alone have you had feuds with?
But why don't I address a few of your specific issues:
<<I do not like if answers as you do solicitating for more information about
solely MDI question, normally I answer most questions as they are slightly
related to the newsgroup. However, MDI has nothing to do with AdoNet. In my
opinion are you destructing with that the quality of the search ability for
AdoNet problems from this newsgroup.>>
First, this is totally unrelated to the point at hand. Next, are you really
saying that you can't search the ADO.NET newsgroup correctly b/c I chose to
help someone? If you're so worried about noise related to off topic
questions, then why didn't you write the OP privately and tell him your
comments? After all, your comment does exactly what you accuse me of.
<<However, there is at least one person in your message who has written me
by mail that he was reacting on the message from others as you and Frans,
however after reading all, made by mail his apologized by me because he
could not find any thing wrong written by *me*.>>
I'm not going to flat out call you a liar, but you are. Not one person
posted anything AFTER I did other than you. Not one. So how could they
write you privately and say they were responding to something I said?
<<I find it however repulsive that you accuse Ken with whom I write almost 5
mail messages a day, from whom you tell that he writes behind my back bad
messages to you about me, this for the same for other people who are
included in your message. If they want to discuss things with me, than they
have my open email address.>>
Here's the exact text of what I wrote "If you look at most of the people
here, Me, Miha, Sahil, Frans, Mark, Angel, Sushil, Kevin, David, Val, Ken
etc, you won't find one single post in respect to where to post something."
--If I'm wrong,t then go ahead and show me one post to the contrary.
Moreover, where did I say that Ken or anyone else said something bad about
you? My point is (and was) 100% valid. And the fact that you have to throw
up some nonsense instead of refuting it further proves what I said. If
David posted such a thing, then by all means, send the hyperlink and prove
me wrong. I'll guarantee that if he did, it was in the format that I
recommended to you - POLITE, and relevant. I didn't say that you should
never mention other groups. I said that you should be a little more careful
about how you say it so that there isn't confusion.
<<Let me tell that I am sick of moderators as you and Frans which like in
these newsgroups to flame people just because what they think that they are
writing, however not about the fact, but only doing that with a lot of
bullshit what is nowhere written by the person they accuse>>
Wow, the hypocrisy here is about to drown me. First off, cite one example
where I've done that. If it happens so often that you are sick of it, show
me ONE example where I've done that. Even with this particular issue Cor, I
was the only one of us that actually stuck to the topic. 80 of what you
accuse me of in your post is completely incorrect to the point of being
patent absurdity. But even if you have no problem being a hypocrite, I
still challenge you to show me where I flamed you or anyone else and in
particular, in a case where I was doing it based on, in your own words
"because what they think that they are
writing, however not about the fact, but only doing that with a lot of
bullshit what is nowhere written by the person they accuse"
<<You have my email address, while it is even fully open. If you think that,
you have to write those things, than sent them by email.>>You're right, I
do. But considering that I didn't write a single line that was rude or a
put down, I didn't feel it necessary. Where did I insult you Cor? Where
did I say something that was humiliating to you? Where? the fact is that
if the shoe was on the other foot, I sure as hell wouldn't throw a temper
tantrum about it and make ridiculous and incorrect insinuations about you.
One a few occassions I've behaved rudely to people and without fail, I am
quick to apologize about it. If someone corrected me afterward, I
acknowledged that I was the one that was wrong - I didn't attack the person
for it. And if someone was trying to stop me from making a complete jackass
out of myself, I sure wouldn't attack them.
<<You can disagree with me, that helping people with showing them a better
place to get there information is prohibited. As long as you cannot show me
with good documention that fact of you, than I will keep trying to help
people with that. I nowhere as you forever intent, do tell people not to
send to any newsgroup or even am impolite in that, that idea is only in
your mind.>>
Are you even responding to what I wrote? I NEVER said or even intimated
that it was prohibited. I pointed out that this crap has continually
happened with you and whether or not it's your intent, the way you
communicate it often offends people. How can you say that you were trying
to help in this context based on what you wrote? Here's your comment in
case you forgot "This is in my opinion no question for a Microsoft
newsgroup.It is as asking to a Porsche fan club what is a better car a
Ferrari or a Porsche. Just my idea"
First, you didn't add anything to the discussion. Second you told them that
this is 'no question' for a Microsoft Newsgroup when it clearly is. And
even if it weren't, where do you 'help' them find an answer? Nowhere. You
just criticize them so how can you seriously say that you were trying to
hlep? And even if you really were, how can you seriously dispute that based
on your answer, that it's surprising to find that someone misinterpreted
your intentions?
So in every single paragraph you wrote, you state something that is flalty
incorrect. Most of what you responded to is stuff that I sure as hell
didn't say, imply or have anything to do with. And throughout it you do the
exact same stuff that you accuse me of. And maybe it was lost in
translation Cor, but I went out of my way to be polite. Actually, I went
more than out of my way b/c you can't take any criticism without acting like
a little kid about it. Everyone else in here can take criticism, but not
the great Cor Lightert - oh no, if you get corrected, even when you're
totally wrong, you start attacking people. How many people (particularly in
the MVP program) have you started fights with? I can think of 5 without
even trying. And each of which was done in public so please spare me the
lecture about keeping stuff private. And of those people, how many of them
were absolutely correct while you were completely wrong? So I guess every
time you answer something incorrectly, the rest of the community is supposed
to not post anything correct. When you are rude to other people, the rest
of the community is just supposed to be quiet. When you, me or anyone else
behaves rudely as MVP, we make others in the program look bad. So the
thing to do when you act like a jerk is to apologize and try to not do it
again. Instead you typically chose to start attacking other people.
I haven't flamed you at all. I don't really know how to respond to you b/c
most of what you said is patently incorrect. Reread my message. I didn't
accuse Ken of anything. All I said was that he doesn't go around telling
people where to post. Seriously Cor - how many times have people gotten
pissed off at you b/c of your rude comments about posting to other groups?
How many different people in the MVP program alone have you had feuds with?
But why don't I address a few of your specific issues:
<<I do not like if answers as you do solicitating for more information about
solely MDI question, normally I answer most questions as they are slightly
related to the newsgroup. However, MDI has nothing to do with AdoNet. In my
opinion are you destructing with that the quality of the search ability for
AdoNet problems from this newsgroup.>>
First, this is totally unrelated to the point at hand. Next, are you really
saying that you can't search the ADO.NET newsgroup correctly b/c I chose to
help someone? If you're so worried about noise related to off topic
questions, then why didn't you write the OP privately and tell him your
comments? After all, your comment does exactly what you accuse me of.
<<However, there is at least one person in your message who has written me
by mail that he was reacting on the message from others as you and Frans,
however after reading all, made by mail his apologized by me because he
could not find any thing wrong written by *me*.>>
I'm not going to flat out call you a liar, but you are. Not one person
posted anything AFTER I did other than you. Not one. So how could they
write you privately and say they were responding to something I said?
<<I find it however repulsive that you accuse Ken with whom I write almost 5
mail messages a day, from whom you tell that he writes behind my back bad
messages to you about me, this for the same for other people who are
included in your message. If they want to discuss things with me, than they
have my open email address.>>
Here's the exact text of what I wrote "If you look at most of the people
here, Me, Miha, Sahil, Frans, Mark, Angel, Sushil, Kevin, David, Val, Ken
etc, you won't find one single post in respect to where to post something."
--If I'm wrong,t then go ahead and show me one post to the contrary.
Moreover, where did I say that Ken or anyone else said something bad about
you? My point is (and was) 100% valid. And the fact that you have to throw
up some nonsense instead of refuting it further proves what I said. If
David posted such a thing, then by all means, send the hyperlink and prove
me wrong. I'll guarantee that if he did, it was in the format that I
recommended to you - POLITE, and relevant. I didn't say that you should
never mention other groups. I said that you should be a little more careful
about how you say it so that there isn't confusion.
<<Let me tell that I am sick of moderators as you and Frans which like in
these newsgroups to flame people just because what they think that they are
writing, however not about the fact, but only doing that with a lot of
bullshit what is nowhere written by the person they accuse>>
Wow, the hypocrisy here is about to drown me. First off, cite one example
where I've done that. If it happens so often that you are sick of it, show
me ONE example where I've done that. Even with this particular issue Cor, I
was the only one of us that actually stuck to the topic. 80 of what you
accuse me of in your post is completely incorrect to the point of being
patent absurdity. But even if you have no problem being a hypocrite, I
still challenge you to show me where I flamed you or anyone else and in
particular, in a case where I was doing it based on, in your own words
"because what they think that they are
writing, however not about the fact, but only doing that with a lot of
bullshit what is nowhere written by the person they accuse"
<<You have my email address, while it is even fully open. If you think that,
you have to write those things, than sent them by email.>>You're right, I
do. But considering that I didn't write a single line that was rude or a
put down, I didn't feel it necessary. Where did I insult you Cor? Where
did I say something that was humiliating to you? Where? the fact is that
if the shoe was on the other foot, I sure as hell wouldn't throw a temper
tantrum about it and make ridiculous and incorrect insinuations about you.
One a few occassions I've behaved rudely to people and without fail, I am
quick to apologize about it. If someone corrected me afterward, I
acknowledged that I was the one that was wrong - I didn't attack the person
for it. And if someone was trying to stop me from making a complete jackass
out of myself, I sure wouldn't attack them.
<<You can disagree with me, that helping people with showing them a better
place to get there information is prohibited. As long as you cannot show me
with good documention that fact of you, than I will keep trying to help
people with that. I nowhere as you forever intent, do tell people not to
send to any newsgroup or even am impolite in that, that idea is only in
your mind.>>
Are you even responding to what I wrote? I NEVER said or even intimated
that it was prohibited. I pointed out that this crap has continually
happened with you and whether or not it's your intent, the way you
communicate it often offends people. How can you say that you were trying
to help in this context based on what you wrote? Here's your comment in
case you forgot "This is in my opinion no question for a Microsoft
newsgroup.It is as asking to a Porsche fan club what is a better car a
Ferrari or a Porsche. Just my idea"
First, you didn't add anything to the discussion. Second you told them that
this is 'no question' for a Microsoft Newsgroup when it clearly is. And
even if it weren't, where do you 'help' them find an answer? Nowhere. You
just criticize them so how can you seriously say that you were trying to
hlep? And even if you really were, how can you seriously dispute that based
on your answer, that it's surprising to find that someone misinterpreted
your intentions?
So in every single paragraph you wrote, you state something that is flalty
incorrect. Most of what you responded to is stuff that I sure as hell
didn't say, imply or have anything to do with. And throughout it you do the
exact same stuff that you accuse me of. And maybe it was lost in
translation Cor, but I went out of my way to be polite. Actually, I went
more than out of my way b/c you can't take any criticism without acting like
a little kid about it. Everyone else in here can take criticism, but not
the great Cor Lightert - oh no, if you get corrected, even when you're
totally wrong, you start attacking people. How many people (particularly in
the MVP program) have you started fights with? I can think of 5 without
even trying. And each of which was done in public so please spare me the
lecture about keeping stuff private. And of those people, how many of them
were absolutely correct while you were completely wrong? So I guess every
time you answer something incorrectly, the rest of the community is supposed
to not post anything correct. When you are rude to other people, the rest
of the community is just supposed to be quiet. When you, me or anyone else
behaves rudely as MVP, we make others in the program look bad. So the
thing to do when you act like a jerk is to apologize and try to not do it
again. Instead you typically chose to start attacking other people.
F
Frans Bouma [C# MVP]
Cor said:
please stop it. You bash some guy that he posts in the wrong
newsgroup. You are not the newsgroup police, so it's not up to you to
tell another person on this planet he posts in teh wrong newsgroup.
ALSO, by doing what you did, you dishonour the MVP brand. MVPs HELP
people, not bash people because they might have posted in the wrong
newsgroup.
ALSO, this isn't the first time you do this.
ALSO, your posting was ALSO offtopic, so pot-kettle etc.
FB
--
M
Marina
Is it me, or did all this get a little out of control, especially for a
group of adults.
Unless a response is outright rude or abusive, then if you don't like what
was said in it, isn't it easier to just ignore it and move on. Or if you
don't like what a particular person posts, don't read their posts at all.
Instead of getting all wound up over what a response said, respond yourself
in a helpful way to the original poster. So instead of getting sidetracked
on arguing about personality conflicts, just ignore it, and provide some
useful input if you feel the other response didn't provide it. Otherwise you
are adding to the problem.
My personal take on the issue, is that there is no newsgroup that is well
suited for a completely objective discussion of this particular topic. And
certainly not one that is devoted only to it (as far as i know). So, posting
here one shouldn't expect a particularly objective assesment, as the people
who post here tend to use certain technlogies already. Perhaps that is what
Cor was trying to say.
However, never having used MySQL myself, I have no valuable input on the
original subject.
group of adults.
Unless a response is outright rude or abusive, then if you don't like what
was said in it, isn't it easier to just ignore it and move on. Or if you
don't like what a particular person posts, don't read their posts at all.
Instead of getting all wound up over what a response said, respond yourself
in a helpful way to the original poster. So instead of getting sidetracked
on arguing about personality conflicts, just ignore it, and provide some
useful input if you feel the other response didn't provide it. Otherwise you
are adding to the problem.
My personal take on the issue, is that there is no newsgroup that is well
suited for a completely objective discussion of this particular topic. And
certainly not one that is devoted only to it (as far as i know). So, posting
here one shouldn't expect a particularly objective assesment, as the people
who post here tend to use certain technlogies already. Perhaps that is what
Cor was trying to say.
However, never having used MySQL myself, I have no valuable input on the
original subject.
W
W.G. Ryan - MVP
I didn't say that you shouldn't make suggestions to people as to otherCor Ligthert said:
groups that may be better suited to them. Nor did I say that none of the
people never made a suggestion to someone else. If someone asks, then by
all means answering them is the right thing to do. But show me one where
David's only reply was telling them that there's another newsgroup available
when they didn't ask about it.
You cannot take Kevin in that,
And David's isn't? Unless he changed jobs in the last two weeks, I think
he's still on the ADO.NET team. But here you actually prove my point. If
your comments in this respect were USEFUL or actually made this group a
better place, then Kevin certianly would make them - after all in YOUR OWN
WORDS "his duty is to help as soon as possible" and since he doesn't do it,
that pretty much proves that it's not helpful - doesn't it?
Better yet, even assuming your comments here were correct, the fact remains
that with everyone else I mentioned, there's no disputing it and there are a
probably another hundred that it holds true for.
So what? Do you really want to judge yourself by the lowest common
denominator? The fact someone does something worse than you doesn't make it
right.
Really? You don't seem to have that problem when it comes to anyone else.
If I would discuss that with him, than I
- I already have discussed it with you and most importantly, I didn't say
anything in my post taht was even slightly rude - if you can't handle
someone being honest and polite, that's not my probelm.
W
W.G. Ryan - MVP
Cor:
I haven't flamed you at all. I don't really know how to respond to you b/c
most of what you said is patently incorrect. Reread my message. I didn't
accuse Ken of anything. All I said was that he doesn't go around telling
people where to post. Seriously Cor - how many times have people gotten
pissed off at you b/c of your rude comments about posting to other groups?
How many different people in the MVP program alone have you had feuds with?
But why don't I address a few of your specific issues:
<<I do not like if answers as you do solicitating for more information about
solely MDI question, normally I answer most questions as they are slightly
related to the newsgroup. However, MDI has nothing to do with AdoNet. In my
opinion are you destructing with that the quality of the search ability for
AdoNet problems from this newsgroup.>>
First, this is totally unrelated to the point at hand. Next, are you really
saying that you can't search the ADO.NET newsgroup correctly b/c I chose to
help someone? If you're so worried about noise related to off topic
questions, then why didn't you write the OP privately and tell him your
comments? After all, your comment does exactly what you accuse me of.
<<However, there is at least one person in your message who has written me
by mail that he was reacting on the message from others as you and Frans,
however after reading all, made by mail his apologized by me because he
could not find any thing wrong written by *me*.>>
I'm not going to flat out call you a liar, but you are. Not one person
posted anything AFTER I did other than you. Not one. So how could they
write you privately and say they were responding to something I said?
<<I find it however repulsive that you accuse Ken with whom I write almost 5
mail messages a day, from whom you tell that he writes behind my back bad
messages to you about me, this for the same for other people who are
included in your message. If they want to discuss things with me, than they
have my open email address.>>
Here's the exact text of what I wrote "If you look at most of the people
here, Me, Miha, Sahil, Frans, Mark, Angel, Sushil, Kevin, David, Val, Ken
etc, you won't find one single post in respect to where to post something."
--If I'm wrong,t then go ahead and show me one post to the contrary.
Moreover, where did I say that Ken or anyone else said something bad about
you? My point is (and was) 100% valid. And the fact that you have to throw
up some nonsense instead of refuting it further proves what I said. If
David posted such a thing, then by all means, send the hyperlink and prove
me wrong. I'll guarantee that if he did, it was in the format that I
recommended to you - POLITE, and relevant. I didn't say that you should
never mention other groups. I said that you should be a little more careful
about how you say it so that there isn't confusion.
<<Let me tell that I am sick of moderators as you and Frans which like in
these newsgroups to flame people just because what they think that they are
writing, however not about the fact, but only doing that with a lot of
bullshit what is nowhere written by the person they accuse>>
Wow, the hypocrisy here is about to drown me. First off, cite one example
where I've done that. If it happens so often that you are sick of it, show
me ONE example where I've done that. Even with this particular issue Cor, I
was the only one of us that actually stuck to the topic. 80 of what you
accuse me of in your post is completely incorrect to the point of being
patent absurdity. But even if you have no problem being a hypocrite, I
still challenge you to show me where I flamed you or anyone else and in
particular, in a case where I was doing it based on, in your own words
"because what they think that they are
writing, however not about the fact, but only doing that with a lot of
bullshit what is nowhere written by the person they accuse"
<<You have my email address, while it is even fully open. If you think that,
you have to write those things, than sent them by email.>>You're right, I
do. But considering that I didn't write a single line that was rude or a
put down, I didn't feel it necessary. Where did I insult you Cor? Where
did I say something that was humiliating to you? Where? the fact is that
if the shoe was on the other foot, I sure as hell wouldn't throw a temper
tantrum about it and make ridiculous and incorrect insinuations about you.
One a few occassions I've behaved rudely to people and without fail, I am
quick to apologize about it. If someone corrected me afterward, I
acknowledged that I was the one that was wrong - I didn't attack the person
for it. And if someone was trying to stop me from making a complete jackass
out of myself, I sure wouldn't attack them.
<<You can disagree with me, that helping people with showing them a better
place to get there information is prohibited. As long as you cannot show me
with good documention that fact of you, than I will keep trying to help
people with that. I nowhere as you forever intent, do tell people not to
send to any newsgroup or even am impolite in that, that idea is only in
your mind.>>
Are you even responding to what I wrote? I NEVER said or even intimated
that it was prohibited. I pointed out that this crap has continually
happened with you and whether or not it's your intent, the way you
communicate it often offends people. How can you say that you were trying
to help in this context based on what you wrote? Here's your comment in
case you forgot "This is in my opinion no question for a Microsoft
newsgroup.It is as asking to a Porsche fan club what is a better car a
Ferrari or a Porsche. Just my idea"
First, you didn't add anything to the discussion. Second you told them that
this is 'no question' for a Microsoft Newsgroup when it clearly is. And
even if it weren't, where do you 'help' them find an answer? Nowhere. You
just criticize them so how can you seriously say that you were trying to
hlep? And even if you really were, how can you seriously dispute that based
on your answer, that it's surprising to find that someone misinterpreted
your intentions?
So in every single paragraph you wrote, you state something that is flalty
incorrect. Most of what you responded to is stuff that I sure as hell
didn't say, imply or have anything to do with. And throughout it you do the
exact same stuff that you accuse me of. And maybe it was lost in
translation Cor, but I went out of my way to be polite. Actually, I went
more than out of my way b/c you can't take any criticism without acting like
a little kid about it. Everyone else in here can take criticism, but not
the great Cor Lightert - oh no, if you get corrected, even when you're
totally wrong, you start attacking people. How many people (particularly in
the MVP program) have you started fights with? I can think of 5 without
even trying. And each of which was done in public so please spare me the
lecture about keeping stuff private. And of those people, how many of them
were absolutely correct while you were completely wrong? So I guess every
time you answer something incorrectly, the rest of the community is supposed
to not post anything correct. When you are rude to other people, the rest
of the community is just supposed to be quiet. When you, me or anyone else
behaves rudely as MVP, we make others in the program look bad. So the
thing to do when you act like a jerk is to apologize and try to not do it
again. Instead you typically chose to start attacking other people.
I haven't flamed you at all. I don't really know how to respond to you b/c
most of what you said is patently incorrect. Reread my message. I didn't
accuse Ken of anything. All I said was that he doesn't go around telling
people where to post. Seriously Cor - how many times have people gotten
pissed off at you b/c of your rude comments about posting to other groups?
How many different people in the MVP program alone have you had feuds with?
But why don't I address a few of your specific issues:
<<I do not like if answers as you do solicitating for more information about
solely MDI question, normally I answer most questions as they are slightly
related to the newsgroup. However, MDI has nothing to do with AdoNet. In my
opinion are you destructing with that the quality of the search ability for
AdoNet problems from this newsgroup.>>
First, this is totally unrelated to the point at hand. Next, are you really
saying that you can't search the ADO.NET newsgroup correctly b/c I chose to
help someone? If you're so worried about noise related to off topic
questions, then why didn't you write the OP privately and tell him your
comments? After all, your comment does exactly what you accuse me of.
<<However, there is at least one person in your message who has written me
by mail that he was reacting on the message from others as you and Frans,
however after reading all, made by mail his apologized by me because he
could not find any thing wrong written by *me*.>>
I'm not going to flat out call you a liar, but you are. Not one person
posted anything AFTER I did other than you. Not one. So how could they
write you privately and say they were responding to something I said?
<<I find it however repulsive that you accuse Ken with whom I write almost 5
mail messages a day, from whom you tell that he writes behind my back bad
messages to you about me, this for the same for other people who are
included in your message. If they want to discuss things with me, than they
have my open email address.>>
Here's the exact text of what I wrote "If you look at most of the people
here, Me, Miha, Sahil, Frans, Mark, Angel, Sushil, Kevin, David, Val, Ken
etc, you won't find one single post in respect to where to post something."
--If I'm wrong,t then go ahead and show me one post to the contrary.
Moreover, where did I say that Ken or anyone else said something bad about
you? My point is (and was) 100% valid. And the fact that you have to throw
up some nonsense instead of refuting it further proves what I said. If
David posted such a thing, then by all means, send the hyperlink and prove
me wrong. I'll guarantee that if he did, it was in the format that I
recommended to you - POLITE, and relevant. I didn't say that you should
never mention other groups. I said that you should be a little more careful
about how you say it so that there isn't confusion.
<<Let me tell that I am sick of moderators as you and Frans which like in
these newsgroups to flame people just because what they think that they are
writing, however not about the fact, but only doing that with a lot of
bullshit what is nowhere written by the person they accuse>>
Wow, the hypocrisy here is about to drown me. First off, cite one example
where I've done that. If it happens so often that you are sick of it, show
me ONE example where I've done that. Even with this particular issue Cor, I
was the only one of us that actually stuck to the topic. 80 of what you
accuse me of in your post is completely incorrect to the point of being
patent absurdity. But even if you have no problem being a hypocrite, I
still challenge you to show me where I flamed you or anyone else and in
particular, in a case where I was doing it based on, in your own words
"because what they think that they are
writing, however not about the fact, but only doing that with a lot of
bullshit what is nowhere written by the person they accuse"
<<You have my email address, while it is even fully open. If you think that,
you have to write those things, than sent them by email.>>You're right, I
do. But considering that I didn't write a single line that was rude or a
put down, I didn't feel it necessary. Where did I insult you Cor? Where
did I say something that was humiliating to you? Where? the fact is that
if the shoe was on the other foot, I sure as hell wouldn't throw a temper
tantrum about it and make ridiculous and incorrect insinuations about you.
One a few occassions I've behaved rudely to people and without fail, I am
quick to apologize about it. If someone corrected me afterward, I
acknowledged that I was the one that was wrong - I didn't attack the person
for it. And if someone was trying to stop me from making a complete jackass
out of myself, I sure wouldn't attack them.
<<You can disagree with me, that helping people with showing them a better
place to get there information is prohibited. As long as you cannot show me
with good documention that fact of you, than I will keep trying to help
people with that. I nowhere as you forever intent, do tell people not to
send to any newsgroup or even am impolite in that, that idea is only in
your mind.>>
Are you even responding to what I wrote? I NEVER said or even intimated
that it was prohibited. I pointed out that this crap has continually
happened with you and whether or not it's your intent, the way you
communicate it often offends people. How can you say that you were trying
to help in this context based on what you wrote? Here's your comment in
case you forgot "This is in my opinion no question for a Microsoft
newsgroup.It is as asking to a Porsche fan club what is a better car a
Ferrari or a Porsche. Just my idea"
First, you didn't add anything to the discussion. Second you told them that
this is 'no question' for a Microsoft Newsgroup when it clearly is. And
even if it weren't, where do you 'help' them find an answer? Nowhere. You
just criticize them so how can you seriously say that you were trying to
hlep? And even if you really were, how can you seriously dispute that based
on your answer, that it's surprising to find that someone misinterpreted
your intentions?
So in every single paragraph you wrote, you state something that is flalty
incorrect. Most of what you responded to is stuff that I sure as hell
didn't say, imply or have anything to do with. And throughout it you do the
exact same stuff that you accuse me of. And maybe it was lost in
translation Cor, but I went out of my way to be polite. Actually, I went
more than out of my way b/c you can't take any criticism without acting like
a little kid about it. Everyone else in here can take criticism, but not
the great Cor Lightert - oh no, if you get corrected, even when you're
totally wrong, you start attacking people. How many people (particularly in
the MVP program) have you started fights with? I can think of 5 without
even trying. And each of which was done in public so please spare me the
lecture about keeping stuff private. And of those people, how many of them
were absolutely correct while you were completely wrong? So I guess every
time you answer something incorrectly, the rest of the community is supposed
to not post anything correct. When you are rude to other people, the rest
of the community is just supposed to be quiet. When you, me or anyone else
behaves rudely as MVP, we make others in the program look bad. So the
thing to do when you act like a jerk is to apologize and try to not do it
again. Instead you typically chose to start attacking other people.
M
Miha Markic [MVP C#]
Aren't the two paragraphs negating each other ;-)