Some NOT CLEANABLE trojans with TrendMicro.

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kurt wismer said:
maybe you should look at your own terminology... a 'trojaned program'
and a 'trojan' are not the same thing...

....nor did I say they were.

I referred to "trojaned program file" as a program file that has been modified to include the unwanted program function. I
include the manual modification as well as any done by other programs as is the case with some viruses. In either case the
result is a trojan. HTML redirect exploit is a trojan but not a trojaned program file.
a 'trojaned program' is one (as you suggest) that was modified to make
it into a trojan...

Yes, it was legit but now has ulterior motive - even if it was a legit screensaver hex edited or even source code level
modified to include the bad function. Is "trojaned" only supposed to mean those automatic modifications and not the
manual ones?
outside of viral infection, that almost never
happens (and when it is viral infection we generally don't talk about
it being a trojan)... as such, the trojan horse programs one encounters
in practice are of the uncleanable variety that will is talking about...

Yes, an uncleanable 'variety' rather than uncleanable as a crucial part of a definition for trojan. There is nothing stopping
malware from parasitically modifying program files with non-replicative functions or from an AV being able to clean it up.
 
No, most definitions for trojan make no reference to whether or not the program is a modified version of a preexisting
program or a 'built from the ground up' malware file.

Well, I bow to your greater expertise in these matters.
I cheerfully acknowledge that I'm a newbie in this area, having been
dealing with AV for only 8 years.
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Tue, 14 Dec 2004 15:20:37 -0000, Dave Budd wrote:
What happened to the definition;
"Trojan = a deceptive vector ploy"
you know, where some file presents itself
as other than what ultimately crawls out the horses ass?

At this point in yet another "is it a virus, is it a worm, is it a
trojan... no; it's StuporMan!!" thread, let me advocate the use of the
term "malware" to cover all, and perhaps more explicit terminology
where one wishes to qualify this (tedious tho this may be).

For example, I've taken to referring to intrafile code infectors as
such, rather than "code viruses" or "viruses". I stopped calling all
traditional (non-commercial) malware "viruses" long ago.

In this case I might have struggled with terms like "stand-alone
malware files" to avoid the kicked-ant-heap effect of "trojan"... that
might have still spawned another 20-post terminology thread, but at
least it would have been a different one.

Time flies like an arrow, but fruit fies like a banana.


---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
On the 'net, *everyone* can hear you scream
 
Roger said:
kurt wismer said:
Roger said:
[snip]

Trojans are, by definition, uncleanable. Delete them.

Whether or not a trojaned program file is cleanable depends on how (or if) it was modified in the first place. Many are
not modified and so cannot be unmodified, but there is no definition that I am aware of that defines trojans as uncleanable
as you suggest.

maybe you should look at your own terminology... a 'trojaned program'
and a 'trojan' are not the same thing...

....nor did I say they were.

not to put too fine a point on it, but by replying about 'trojaned
program's to a statement about 'trojan's, you were implying exactly that...

that or you were secretly making an apples and oranges comparison and
hoping no one would notice...

ultimately i agree with you, i just think the discussion took a
misleading turn at that point...
I referred to "trojaned program file" as a program file that has been modified to include the unwanted program function. I
include the manual modification as well as any done by other programs as is the case with some viruses. In either case the
result is a trojan. HTML redirect exploit is a trojan but not a trojaned program file.

the result may very well be a trojan, but it also happens to be a
rather rare special case in practice...

[snip]
Yes, an uncleanable 'variety' rather than uncleanable as a crucial part of a definition for trojan. There is nothing stopping
malware from parasitically modifying program files with non-replicative functions or from an AV being able to clean it up.

indeed... and wouldn't it be nice to have an example one could point
to... like, say, a utility (called silk rope) that one could use to
'bind' back orifice to other programs...
 
Dave Budd said:
Well, I bow to your greater expertise in these matters.
I cheerfully acknowledge that I'm a newbie in this area, having been
dealing with AV for only 8 years.

AV does more to confuse than to clarify. I don't mind if they redefine these things, but they should do it by consensus and
not have every company using a different definition. How is something a backdoor 'trojan' if there is no opportunity for the
user to take part in the decision whether or not to execute the program? The dropper probably was one, but the resulting
installed backdoor is a backdoor - not a 'trojan backdoor virus' as some scanners will report. How often have you seen
a virus analysis like this taken from http://us.mcafee.com/virusInfo/?id=description&virus_k=101033 .

virus profile

balh blah blah

Type: Trojan
SubType: Exploit

No wonder peeps get confused - McAfee's been in the business a long time and it looks like they classify a trojan as a type
of virus. Then you read their definition of trojan and their definition of virus to find them mutually exclusive terms due to the
replicating/non-replicating part of the definitions http://us.mcafee.com/virusInfo/default.asp?id=glossary .

They define "virus" starting with "A computer program file..." yet a boot sector virus might not have anything to do with files
at all. I'm not picking on McAfee here, most AV vendors sites as well as other virus related sites are just as bad about this.
 
kurt wismer said:
Roger said:
kurt wismer said:
Roger Wilco wrote:

[snip]

Trojans are, by definition, uncleanable. Delete them.

Whether or not a trojaned program file is cleanable depends on how (or if) it was modified in the first place. Many are
not modified and so cannot be unmodified, but there is no definition that I am aware of that defines trojans as uncleanable
as you suggest.

maybe you should look at your own terminology... a 'trojaned program'
and a 'trojan' are not the same thing...

....nor did I say they were.

not to put too fine a point on it, but by replying about 'trojaned
program's to a statement about 'trojan's, you were implying exactly that...

A trojaned program is a trojan (the converse may not be true) and his statement "Trojans are, by definition, uncleanable" is
what I was replying to.
that or you were secretly making an apples and oranges comparison and
hoping no one would notice...

Since when is giving an example not allowed? Basically the trojaned program file is the only type of trojan that has a chance
of being "cleaned". I was in doubt about any so-called defintion that states they (trojans) can't be cleaned just as I am in
doubt about any that say trojans don't replicate.
ultimately i agree with you, i just think the discussion took a
misleading turn at that point...

Well...if it wasn't modified it can't normally be unmodified - my take was that a defiintion of trojan shouldn't exclude the
possibility that the nefarious function was added in much the same way that parasitic file infectors add their function - in
fact most viruses of this type are trojans as they have trojaned the legit program file when they infected it.

True, and the statement "Trojans are, generally, uncleanable" would not have given me enough reason to jump in - although
the suggestion that you can just "delete them" can lead to trouble.

Agreed. My argument was with the "by definition" and "uncleanable" and the idea that just "deleting them" is good advice.
indeed... and wouldn't it be nice to have an example one could point
to... like, say, a utility (called silk rope) that one could use to
'bind' back orifice to other programs...

Yep, funny I never saw that one before - thanks.
 
Roger Wilco wrote:
[snip]
AV does more to confuse than to clarify. I don't mind if they redefine these things, but they should
do it by consensus and
not have every company using a different definition. How is something a backdoor 'trojan' if there is
no opportunity for the
user to take part in the decision whether or not to execute the program?

unless someone sneaks into your house and plants it, the user decided
to install it...
The dropper probably was one, but the resulting
installed backdoor is a backdoor - not a 'trojan backdoor virus' as some scanners will report.

it is a backdoor trojan... a trojan you install is still a trojan after
you install it... even if you weren't aware you were installing it when
you installed it...

as for being called a virus - fair point... some scanners are just too
dumb to call the things they detect anything other than a virus...

by the way, there is something seriously wrong with your line length...
 
AV does more to confuse than to clarify. I don't mind if they redefine these
things, but they should do it by consensus and not have every company
using a different definition.

Part of the problem is the dated mindset that a malware is entirely
one or another type of entity. This dates from when malware
(especially viruses) were written in low-level languages that took a
great deal of effort to do the smallest things.

Also, these early malware tended to work in spite of the environment,
rather than making use of it. This in turn reflected the nature of
DOS, which generally loaded a program into RAM and then left it alone.

Today, it's easy to get existing software to do malicious things for
you - so instead of having to do everything by hand, you can use a
high-level language to strap together existing functionalities in
interesting ways. Think of it as the difference between
cut-and-pasting up a picture in Photoshop, with drawing that picture
by hand by setting each pixel value, one at a time.

The original archetypes were:
- boot virus, infexcting pre-file-system code that boots disks
- file virus, infecting existing code files
- worm, a la the Morris worm on UNIX
- trojan, a la PKZIP300 or AOL4FREE

The original trojans were entirely passive, and leveraged the
pre0Internet BBS scene. They would be posted up to Bullitin Board
Systems to look like interesting downloads, and so folks would
download them. Because PKZip hadn't been upgraded for years since
2.04g, , "PKZip 3.00" was very plausible SE. AOL4FREE also looked
sensible, given this online service provider's perchant for
limited-time free offers.

Nowadays, it's way more complicated. One malware may infect existing
code files yet also retain a dependency on a stand-alone "mother"
malware file that's integrated into the OS's startup axis. It may
drop itself as a tempting download within the shared folder of a
peer-to-peer file sharing app, much in the tradition of the original
trojans. And it may automate its spread over the Internet, thus
exhibiting worm-like behavior. Every stand-alone file is likely to
have a misleading name; that's trojan-like behaviour, etc.
How is something a backdoor 'trojan' if there is no opportunity
for the user to take part in the decision whether or not to
execute the program?

The SE applies to post-infection attempts to clean the system. Many
malware exist purely as stand-alone files that are integrated into the
OS, one way on another, and often they can be dis-integrated and
deleted with one's bare hands. While malware such as this do have the
opportunity to defend themselves, they often don't; instead, they rely
on cameoflage, so the user things they are legitimate parts of the OS.
installed backdoor is a backdoor - not a 'trojan backdoor virus'
as some scanners will report.

Ah, av reporting often blows chunks out both ends.

The primary unique value that av brings to the party, is the
below-the-eyeball ability to detect and clean intrafile malware, i.e.
viruses that infect the inside of existing files. That is the type of
hammer they are, and to that mindset, everything looks like a nail.

Reporting is automated, of course, and usually by fairly simple
algorithms that take a stock phrase like "VIRUS!!" and insert a
malware-specific name into it.

So you get inapporopriate messages based on yesterday's assumptions,
such as "UNABLE TO CLEAN %malwarename% VIRUS!!" whereas what's really
happening is, a self-contained malware has been found that has no
original non-malware context to be preserved, and thus should be
deleted rather than "cleaned".

Same goes for 100%-malware archives, as common lately. A
"document.zip" that contains a single 100%-malware file
"document.doc.pif" should be deleted entirely, but most av still fuss
about "not being able to clean infected files within archives".
McAfee's been in the business a long time

Well, that's where old mindsets come from :-)
They define "virus" starting with "A computer program file..." yet
a boot sector virus might not have anything to do with files at all.

Quite. It's easy to forget boot code viruses exist - some observers
hint it's acceptable for av not to bother detecting them anymore - as
it's assumed impossible to infect NT with them.

Well, Witty demonstrates that it is quite possible to write directly
to raw disk, even from NT on NTFS. The "impossibility" is not,
therefore, in infecting the HD's pre-OS code, but in having that code
survive into NT after boot.

The assumption there is that a virus will want to survive in order to
spread, and has to do so at an atomic level - i.e. the same code that
lives as a BSV has to survive and spread.

These days, a BSV is more likely to be dropped from the bomb bay of a
file-level malware, than infect from booting an infected disk. Why
bother with pre-OS code at all? To defend the malware presence, take
punitive action against attempts to clean it, or hatch a payload.
I'm not picking on McAfee here, most AV vendors sites as well
as other virus related sites are just as bad about this.

True, but on a related issue - consistent unique names for specific
malware - they do have my sympathy.

When a new malware appears, the following has to happen:
- av vendors get a sample
- av vendors reverse-engineer the sample to detect it
- putative detection is tested for errors
- av vendors reverse-engineer the sample to clean it
- putative cleaning is tested for errors and side-effects
That's the raw code stuff; then there's this:
- is it a commercial software program?
- is it a known malware?
- is it a variant of an existing malware?
- what should we call it?
Then there's this:
- get the fixes into the next av update
- get the av update onto the site for download/push
- get it from there into client's installations

The problem is, av vendors may not have checked with each other to
ensure name consistency by the time the fix goes out, or they may
later discover a new malware is in fact a variation of an existing
one, or that what was thought to be a variation is brand new.

Should availability of detection and fixes be delayed to make sure the
name is spot-on? I don't think so :-)


---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
On the 'net, *everyone* can hear you scream
 
kurt wismer said:
Roger Wilco wrote:
[snip]
AV does more to confuse than to clarify. I don't mind if they redefine these things, but they should
do it by consensus and
not have every company using a different definition. How is something a backdoor 'trojan' if there is
no opportunity for the
user to take part in the decision whether or not to execute the program?

unless someone sneaks into your house and plants it, the user decided
to install it...

True, and the trojan (the dropper/installer) probably used the traditional trojan method.
it is a backdoor trojan... a trojan you install is still a trojan after
you install it... even if you weren't aware you were installing it when
you installed it...

That's the strange thing, the trojan (dropper/installer) fits the definition and could install a otherwise legit remote access tool.
Why would the legit access tool be called a trojan, and how could the scanner know it was installed by trojan method? Is
a RAT server a trojan? Is a RAT server installed by a trojan a trojan? Upon detecting a RAT server how is the AV proggie
to know which it is?
as for being called a virus - fair point... some scanners are just too
dumb to call the things they detect anything other than a virus...

by the way, there is something seriously wrong with your line length...

I will adjust my settings, thanks.
 
Roger said:
That's the strange thing, the trojan (dropper/installer) fits the definition
and could install a otherwise legit remote access tool.
Why would the legit access tool be called a trojan,

format.com can be a trojan, it all depends on how it's presented to the
sucker who runs it...
and how could the scanner
know it was installed by trojan method? Is
a RAT server a trojan? Is a RAT server installed by a trojan a trojan? Upon
detecting a RAT server how is the AV proggie
to know which it is?

i can't see how an anti-virus can know these things...

trojan detection is a hard problem - the question of whether or not
something is a trojan is very context sensitive because, unlike
viruses, trojans do not have a functional definition... the definition
is not based on functional behaviour, but rather on the presentation
and the user's expectations... there's no way to encapsulate those
things into an algorithm...

never the less, trojans are a problem and anti-virus companies had to
deal with them somehow so what it basically comes down to is if
trojan-candidate X is posing a real-world threat to people it has to be
detected, regardless of the context...

[snip]
I will adjust my settings, thanks.

i think the standard is usually about 72 characters per line...
 
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