Solution to using Left/Right in Forms without qualifiers

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Strand,

I think it is time you reread yourself what you have written.

It is proven that a guy with a red flag before a train has no sense,
whatever the horse car lovers say.

Some of the current VB6 developers active in newsgroup are former Microsoft
MVP's who made a petition to keep everything the same.

Microsoft did slightly listen to them and therefore we have still some bad
things in the current VB.

However, they wanted not any change. Microsoft should focus only on Windows
forms and avoid for instance things like Internet.

Those old Microsoft VB MVP's have still frustrations Microsoft did not
follow them.

The actual VB developers avoid Right, Left and Mid, they use one method:
Substring which include all three.

For instance for the former left there is nothing easier than

dim x = theString.Substring(0,1) 'Which means one character starting at the
first position, however it can done in more ways.

But as soon as you know this and like Armin wrote are a little bit familiar
with Net programming, you do for the former right

dim y = theString.Substring(TheString.Length-10, 10) 'the last 10 positions.

Why remember the syntax from Left, Right and Mid as you can do it with one
instruction.
An instruction which is by the way for strings in C#, F#, C++ exactly the
same.

Are most developers in the world fools. because some guys in newsgroups
tell, we must use the Left, Right and Mid?

Cor

"StrandElectric" wrote in message

Tom Shelton said:
LOL... Seems easier to just alias the namespace :) But, hey, it's an
alternative for the whiners I guess....
Click to expand...

I reject the concept that I am a 'whiner' just because vb.net has
shortcomings (many of them silly and lazy).
 
Tom Shelton said:
StrandElectric formulated the question :

Nope. It has lots of problems, this just isn't one of them.


Huh? It can. You've been shown how - so, I'm not sure why you are all
worked up.
Click to expand...
*But Tom, why the need for any extra coding? Why can't the keywords be used
on their own? And why isn't mid the same? Why the insonsistency?>
 
Tom Shelton said:
StrandElectric formulated the question :

If you had any concept of namespaces, you would understand exactly why it
happens. Like I said, this is a lack of understanding on your part.
Click to expand...
Just words... There is not logical reason why the language could not used
those keywords.
 
Cor, a huge body of programmers actually hate what Microsoft has done! I
actually thought they might be hidebound and so I tried it for myself. It
appears that they may have been right.

Not only are these just more strings of words but the language problem makes
them even harder to understand. Vb.net obviously has huge possibilities but
it's been spoiled by what appears to be deliberate obfuscation and not being
poliched and finished. I've run a number of businesses internationally in my
life and getting things done in a straightforward, consistent and well
documented way has been the key to success of them. You won't believe me,
but I started on this quest with an open mind, I enjoyed learning about what
the language could do. You will find my summary of first impressions (good
and bad) in a separate post by that name.

This correspondence has convinced me that my people should not touch this
stuff with a bargepole.

No-one has yet said *why* the language can't have left and right in a string
context but *can* have mid. Yes, they are only fiddly points, but your
anxiety to defend them at all costs (and with not a single clear reason) is
obsessive. There are no doubt many more little points, the signs of a
carelessly finished product. A bit like Vista. Trumpeted and then reviled.
And DOS 4.01 if we can go back that far. Full of bugs that caused countless
businesses untold grief until they ditched it. Even the old MS BASIC in
1980, which possibly some of you won't remember.. One example. An error
message would often appear 'Too many files in 295'. Now what does that mean
to the user, even the skilled programmer? I'll tell you what it means
having found out by accident. It means the floppy disk drive door is open.
What sense is there in that? Why not simply intercept that message and
substitute plain English? Becuaes the development of the language was never
completed. Back to vb.net, why have print unavailable in form image (in the
IDE) for example, why grey it out and have to workaround as someone kindly
explained with copy and paste. Why have a help system that was only ever
half done and so many references that say 'no information available'?
Mnenomics on buttons was a great idea in vb6. Try if you will to apply it in
vb.net and see just what happens. What kind of system requires Google to
provide answers (some of which could be wrong)? Incredible. One of the most
frequent uses of systems in a business context is to produce reports of
tabulated variables. That is Ok in vb6, though not well documented. Is it OK
in vb.net? No, of course not. The print process is totally unwieldy. Was
there ever any input to the development team from a business oriented
person. I'd have gone bust if I ever turned out a product like that.

I really wonder if you 'supporters come what may' have any business
experience?

Well, I've got carried away here I'm afraid. I'm very grateful for the
patience usually shown here to me in my quest. I enjoyed the quest but (as
you might guess) not this justification. Actually the string splitting is a
minor point, but your defence of it has riled me. Dan's original beef was
manifestly right. I would have been much more persuaded by 'Yes that's bad
but such and such points are good... (there are undoubtedly many)'. There's
nothing personal in this. Thanks fellows. This product does not deserve your
undying support.

I'll finish with the image I used before. If I buy a car and find that it
has wheel missing on one corner, the engine will not work except in reverse,
and the driver's manual has many blank pages (all because QC has fallen
over), is it because I don't understand it?

If you really think I've missed the point, by all means try again, but keep
it simple! I never say never.
 
Cor

Another read and this make some sense to me now. You've got some points. But
the string splitting vould be simpler (as it was). I remain disgusted with
the so-called 'help', the print and the other things I mentioned. I can see
your point about widening the use of vb to the net etc.
 
Am 19.01.2011 06:23, schrieb StrandElectric:
OK, but that's one way round the problem and it does work... We should of
course not need *any* ways round the problem. The problem should bot be
there.
Click to expand...

You completely misunderstand. YOU are creating the "problem"! You create
it by going a detour. Instead of going the straight way by using
the SubString method, you are creating a situation in which it is
necessary to make use of a technique not required otherwise.
You are creating the situation yourself and you now complain
that the detour you've created is longer. Go the straight way!

What you name a "problem" is not a problem. It is a situation that you
have frequently in every language that is not as flat as VB6 is (as almost
all of them are). Alike, it is not a workaround but it is the usual technique
to handle the situation. If you have hierarchies, you are forced to specify
the node where to look for something. Imports make this much easier.

I still appreciate your efforts writing programs, but I'll stop mine if you
continue stamping your foot instead of accepting you are not in the position
to criticize - which is not meant as an allegation but simple facts.
You wrote true things in your "first impressions" thread, but the Left/Mid
issue does not belong to them.
 
Am 19.01.2011 06:22, schrieb StrandElectric:
All lovely words and images,
Click to expand...

And so true!
even 'from' (from a previous poster). (I don't
use those in my apps). But like politicians (but undoubtedly more sincere)
you dodge the issue.
Click to expand...

No, you do.
If a language can be constructed to recognise the
tortured syntax you suggest,
Click to expand...

Luckily, the language offers this possibility even in the unnecessary
situation that you insist to create.
why can't it simply recognise left etc (or
left$) in the context of splitting strings? And that's only one example.
Click to expand...

Why can't you recognize the SubString method is used for splitting strings?
We have here in Australia, in NSW in fact, a leader who has a pe-prepared
and obscure all-purpose answer which she just spouts over and over again,
regardless of the question.
Click to expand...

You are asking and asking again ignoring the answer. Is this better?
The question never gets answered.
Click to expand...

Our answers gets always ignored.
This is
therefore familiar to me. You are simply playing with words.
Click to expand...

An analogy is a good method to make people look in the mirror.
Mine hits the nail.
You are
achieving the opposite to your intention. If you are from Microsoft, I
venture to suggest that more and more people are seeing through you. I was
persuaded that vb.net has many improved features (see my detailed first
impressions post), but you will never persuade me that tortured syntax and
useless help systems (those are the lazy ones) are the way to go.
Click to expand...

You should better remember my words about the help system, and what you
call a "tortured syntax" is a valid technique. As you refuse to go the
straight way, you are forced to make use of this technique. See my other
reply about this.
 
StrandElectric expressed precisely :
*But Tom, why the need for any extra coding? Why can't the keywords be used
on their own? And why isn't mid the same? Why the insonsistency?>
Click to expand...

Because Lift, Right, and Mid have never been keywords. They are
intrinsic functions. Not operators or keywords. As such, they are
defined in a namespace Microsoft.VisualBasic.

There is not inconsistency - VB.NET is very consistant within it's
self, and that's what matters. Add a property to your form - Mid, and
you will have the same problem with mid.
 
Strand-

Nobody has said that there are no things to go and you have pinned with
Printing and the Help the nails on that were we completely agree.

However not with String handling there is all more than we can remind.

I showed you only one method, however there are endless ones,
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.string_methods.aspx

And than all the ones which are almost there from the beginning of basic.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd789093.aspx

-Cor

"StrandElectric" wrote in message
Cor

Another read and this make some sense to me now. You've got some points. But
the string splitting vould be simpler (as it was). I remain disgusted with
the so-called 'help', the print and the other things I mentioned. I can see
your point about widening the use of vb to the net etc.
 
Strand-,

You should never discuss with Tom if something is a keyword, a function, a
method or whatever.

He is very strict in it, I've always the same discussions with Tom, I just
accept that.

:-)

However, I've showed you endless times that the Mid Right and Left still
exist.

I not so much care if it is called a function, a method, a keyword, a member
or a donut.

But I try to explain the situation about the Left and the Right and the
namespace, like Tom and Armin did before me.

Because the endless amount of donuts have the designers of Net adepted the
idea of namespaces.

A problem is with the Windows Forms namespace is, that it contains windows
forms (and all controls) with the properties Right and Left.
It means that they have become ambiguous.
In a class is always used in that case the class donut (member) as default,
other use of names need to be fully qualified as that is called.

However, if you try this in a console application (you can try it in your
Visual Basic Express) then this code goes without any problem

Module Module1
Sub Main()
Console.WriteLine(Mid("Donut", 1, 2))
Console.WriteLine(Right("Donut", 3))
Console.WriteLine(Left("Donut", 2))
Console.ReadKey()
End Sub
End Module

-Cor

"StrandElectric" wrote in message

Tom Shelton said:
StrandElectric formulated the question :

If you had any concept of namespaces, you would understand exactly why it
happens. Like I said, this is a lack of understanding on your part.
Click to expand...
Just words... There is not logical reason why the language could not used
those keywords.
 
Armin,

It is not Cor to which you are writing like in past.

:-)

Let us keep it on misunderstanding.

:-)

Cor

"Armin Zingler" wrote in message
Am 19.01.2011 06:23, schrieb StrandElectric:
OK, but that's one way round the problem and it does work... We should of
course not need *any* ways round the problem. The problem should bot be
there.
Click to expand...

You completely misunderstand. YOU are creating the "problem"! You create
it by going a detour. Instead of going the straight way by using
the SubString method, you are creating a situation in which it is
necessary to make use of a technique not required otherwise.
You are creating the situation yourself and you now complain
that the detour you've created is longer. Go the straight way!

What you name a "problem" is not a problem. It is a situation that you
have frequently in every language that is not as flat as VB6 is (as almost
all of them are). Alike, it is not a workaround but it is the usual
technique
to handle the situation. If you have hierarchies, you are forced to specify
the node where to look for something. Imports make this much easier.

I still appreciate your efforts writing programs, but I'll stop mine if you
continue stamping your foot instead of accepting you are not in the position
to criticize - which is not meant as an allegation but simple facts.
You wrote true things in your "first impressions" thread, but the Left/Mid
issue does not belong to them.
 
Am 19.01.2011 16:22, schrieb Cor:
Armin,

It is not Cor to which you are writing like in past.

:-)

Let us keep it on misunderstanding.

:-)

Cor
Click to expand...

??

I was writing to Mr.Strand. Why do you feel addressed?


Armin
 
Am 19.01.2011 11:04, schrieb StrandElectric:
Just words... There is not logical reason why the language could not used
those keywords.
Click to expand...

You want a keyword for every method in the Framework? There are ten-thousands
of them.
 
Cor presented the following explanation :
Strand-,

You should never discuss with Tom if something is a keyword, a function, a
method or whatever.
Click to expand...

LOL... Well, that's because there is a big difference between an
operator, keyword, and function...
 
Am 19.01.2011 16:58, schrieb DanS:
As an end-user of a commercial product, he is *ALWAYS* in a
position to criticize, just as you, and I, or anyone else that
uses product x....unless you prefer to just accept anything
company x wants to sell you as is.
Click to expand...

If I'm pushing the wrong button of that product again and again
only because I haven't read the manual yet, I am also not in the
position to critize. That's true for me, for you, and for everyone
else.

With your 'I am the expert and you are completely and absolutely
wrong about everything you say' attitude,
Click to expand...

LOL...You've quoted a sentence of mine that proves the opposite.
you can have no
objective view about anything, and I think you've proven that
with every post you've made in these past couple threads.
Click to expand...

Can you give me details about that or are you only trying to
act like a prima donna? I can reply better to constructive criticism
instead of general scurillity.
You are not the one to decide where anyone's opinions belong
except your own.
Click to expand...

Right, I am not the one.
 
Because you did it in the same likewise way as you was always doing in the
past to me.
For instance when I wrote that I did not find "Please turn to" really
friendly.

:-)

He made already an excuse in another thread where he explained what
happened.

:-)

Cor

"Armin Zingler" wrote in message
Am 19.01.2011 16:22, schrieb Cor:
Armin,

It is not Cor to which you are writing like in past.

:-)

Let us keep it on misunderstanding.

:-)

Cor
Click to expand...

??

I was writing to Mr.Strand. Why do you feel addressed?


Armin
 
Am 19.01.2011 17:28, schrieb Cor:
Because you did it in the same likewise way as you was always doing in the
past to me.
Click to expand...

I don't know what you mean. I can't remember I had to do convince you
of whatever. Maybe too small things to remember.
For instance when I wrote that I did not find "Please turn to" really
friendly.

:-)

He made already an excuse in another thread where he explained what
happened.

:-)
Click to expand...

The apologies about spelling? I'm confused, but let's close this sideline.

:-)
 
Thanks for that! My, those MSDN references are comprehensive. That's what I
do call help!

The fact that you agree about help and print makes me feel that the string
issue is not such a major one. I had thought that you defended
*everything*.
 
Armin Zingler said:
Am 19.01.2011 16:58, schrieb DanS:
If I'm pushing the wrong button of that product again and again
only because I haven't read the manual yet, I am also
Click to expand...

MANUAL? There's a manual?
 
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