ScanMultiPro with Vuescan "Long exposure pass"

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... what you call "blooming" is primarily the result of *misalignment*
(and secondarily the result of failure to tone map).

Technically, what you see is *ghosting*, not blooming.

Um, actually, it's not. But believe what you will.

It's not ghosting because you can see the color shifting in the areas
adjacent to the high values in the un-merged scan at the longer exposure.
Question:

Does HDR *concept* remove blooming?

Yes or no? Absolute question, no qualifications.

Don.

Here we go again with the poorly framed, absolute questions.

The HDR *concept* removes some of the effects of blooming, but not all.

It does not address the color shifting and exposure changes of
neighboring area when these changes do not push those areaa above the
cut off threshold.

Again, believe what you will.
 
Don said:
That shows that you do not understand the most basic concept of HDR:

Blooming is just *not* possible in HDR!

Period. No ifs and buts. Case closed. The fat lady has sung...

Don, perhaps we are talking about two different things then. Blooming is
a an artifact of charged coupled sensors. When you push an area of a CCD
beyond its clipping point with excess light, the sensor reponds by
affecting adjacent areas. These adjacent areas have their color response
and exposure changed.

This is an property of CCD's based in the physics the device.

A well constructed HDR can address many of these issues, but not all.

After close to 3 years of wrestling with high contrast Kodachromes
I've experienced *every* condition! Believe me!!!

And I have scratchmarks on the walls (from climbing) to prove it! ;o)

I'm not going to go around and around with you on this one. If you can
overcome blooming with HDR, then fine. I will accept that.

For some images, I have not been able to. And yes, I do understand how
HDR works.
 
Don said:
That shows, again, that you don't really understand HDR.

That color shift is addressed by *tone mapping*.

Pulling detail out of border areas is addressed by proper exposure for
those areas.

So what you're saying is I need to make more exposure slices and find
the one where the areas of interest are at or close to proper exposure,
but do not evidence the effects of blooming.

And to that I say it works most of the time, but for some areas it is
not possible to get a decent exposure without pushing the nearby
highlight to the point of blooming.

As for tone mapping to correct the problem, its not entirely predictable
how the color is affected by blooming, as opposed to color shifts from
long exposures which are fairly predictable and (i think) can be
corrected by tone mapping.
 
That's where you're just patently wrong. It is the VueScan "fans" that
have repeatedly attacked me (including abuse) and I have *never*
responded in kind! All I do is simply state objective facts.
You seem to do it in such an offensive manner, and it often seems to be
a case of Don says so so it must be right.
 
Um, actually, it's not. But believe what you will.

As always, it's not a question of belief but of *fact*!

Notably, so far, you haven't provided *any* facts!

I've supplied you with:
- objective facts
- independent tests to verify those facts
- references to scientific literature in support
- links for further reading
- etc...

You have always responded with:
"Weeellll... I kinda, sorta see colooooors..."

So, I'm afraid, it is you who sticks to irrational beliefs.
It's not ghosting because you can see the color shifting in the areas
adjacent to the high values in the un-merged scan at the longer exposure.

That's what ghosting does!!! You are blending misaligned images with a
feathered border. *Of course*, there will be color mixing which you
perceive as fringing and shifting and "blooming" and whatnot... It's
simply ghosting!

Perform the test I outlined and you will see! Here it is *again*:

Take an image, shift it by a pixel and then blend.
Here we go again with the poorly framed, absolute questions.

No, *specifically* targeted questions that don't allow you to wander
off on fanciful tangents - as you have a tendency to do.

I learned that's the *only* way to discipline your responses by
getting to the point without any irrelevant diversions.
The HDR *concept* removes some of the effects of blooming, but not all.

And there it is! You have a basic misconception about what HDR does or
how it does it, or what it is.

Until you grasp that basic concept, further instructions are futile.

Please do some reading on the subject!
I suggest you start by googling for "weighting function" and "radiance
maps".

Don.
 
You seem to do it in such an offensive manner, and it often seems to be
a case of Don says so so it must be right.

It's *objective facts* that say so, not Don!

Let's summarize: Don warned that the given *disinformation* was
factually incorrect, he then explained why and supported this with
*independent* links and references, and then - as a cherry on top -
provided a *free* alternative (HDR Shop).

What's offensive about that?

On the contrary, trying to hide programming incompetence behind
blatant falsehood - as evident in the original response - is what's
really offensive!

Don.
 
Maybe Don has a misconception of what blooming is?

Maybe Bart - cowardly sniping from the sidelines - doesn't dare to
respond to Don directly?

Maybe it's because each time he tries, he only ends up with egg on his
face.

So now Bart pretends to filter, eagerly waiting for someone else to
comment so he can piggyback. The only person fooled by this pathetic
charade is Bart himself.

http://www.debevec.org/Research/HDR/debevec-siggraph97.pdf

Bart would be well advised to read the above document carefully and
fully (including references) before embarrassing himself any further.

Don.
 
Don, perhaps we are talking about two different things then. Blooming is
a an artifact of charged coupled sensors.

Yes, J, and that's eliminated during HDR image generation as radiance
maps are created using assorted weighing functions - as I already
explained.

Have you tried any of the many tests I suggested? Please do and you
will see for yourself.

The document I pointed to earlier was the original paper outlining the
procedure. Things have moved on but even back then blooming was simply
not an issue!

Please *read* the document!!! And follow up the links on the web page.

HDR image generation eliminates blooming (and noise in shadows)!
That's what HDR is all about!

Don.
 
Don said:
As always, it's not a question of belief but of *fact*!

Notably, so far, you haven't provided *any* facts!

Refer to Bart's link, or for that matter any basic EE or biophysics that
covers linear vs non-linear responses of light sensors. Most of the
intro texts I've seen have a chapter that defines and discusses CCD
saturation and blooming. Incidentally, so do most videography texts.
I've supplied you with:
- objective facts
- independent tests to verify those facts
- references to scientific literature in support
- links for further reading
- etc...
Please Don, no more of your subjectively "objective facts". You seem
to believe that you have the sole title to all facts and that only you
can present a truth of any kind. It's really impossible to have a
discussion with you when everything is reduced to you being objectively
right simply because you state an observation you've made.

You have always responded with:
"Weeellll... I kinda, sorta see colooooors..."

So, I'm afraid, it is you who sticks to irrational beliefs.

Don, it's not "ghosting" or "misalignment" if the color shift is visible
on a sinlge long exposure scan. Not a merged set of scans. Not a blended
set of scans. A single scan in which the CCD is exposured to much more
light than normal. Nothing is out of alignment in a single scan. What
you observe at that point is commonly called "blooming".
That's what ghosting does!!! You are blending misaligned images with a
feathered border. *Of course*, there will be color mixing which you
perceive as fringing and shifting and "blooming" and whatnot... It's
simply ghosting!
Perform the test I outlined and you will see! Here it is *again*:

Take an image, shift it by a pixel and then blend.

Have tried that. I have seen what it looks like, but it's not what I'm
talking about.


No, *specifically* targeted questions that don't allow you to wander
off on fanciful tangents - as you have a tendency to do.

I learned that's the *only* way to discipline your responses by
getting to the point without any irrelevant diversions.

No tangents, and I'll decline your discipline ;-)


Again Don, the weight of world eveidence is against you.


I do understand that poorly aligned images can produce fringing, but
somehow you refuse to accept that I;m not talking about poorly aligned
images.

And there it is! You have a basic misconception about what HDR does or
how it does it, or what it is.

Until you grasp that basic concept, further instructions are futile.

I'll gladly discuss topics with you, but I will decline all instruction
from you.
 
Don said:
Maybe Bart - cowardly sniping from the sidelines - doesn't dare to
respond to Don directly?

Maybe it's because each time he tries, he only ends up with egg on his
face.

With a response like that, it should be clear to you why people find
your tone offensive.
So now Bart pretends to filter, eagerly waiting for someone else to
comment so he can piggyback. The only person fooled by this pathetic
charade is Bart himself.

http://www.debevec.org/Research/HDR/debevec-siggraph97.pdf

Bart would be well advised to read the above document carefully and
fully (including references) before embarrassing himself any further.

I don't think you have any idea just how off putting, condescending and
generally insulting your tone is. It's a shame, because without the tone
of your comments, more people might consider their content, rather
than dismissing you. Dialing back the Vuescan rhetoric would also help
in this regard.
 
Don said:
Yes, J, and that's eliminated during HDR image generation as radiance
maps are created using assorted weighing functions - as I already
explained.

Have you tried any of the many tests I suggested? Please do and you
will see for yourself.

The document I pointed to earlier was the original paper outlining the
procedure. Things have moved on but even back then blooming was simply
not an issue!

Please *read* the document!!! And follow up the links on the web page.

I did. More than once.

HDR image generation eliminates blooming (and noise in shadows)!
That's what HDR is all about!

Ok. We are at an impasse.

You refuse to believe that I could possibly have different *valid*
results from you, because your understanding is supported by the
objective factual accuracy of your methods and testing. You findings are
valid, objective and factual because they support your understanding,
which is itself valid, objective and factual because it is supported by
your findings.

Your methods and findings are universal - because they are in fact
objective, and as such apply to all cases, everywhere. Because your
methods are objective so are your results and any findings to the
contrary are summarily dismissed because they can not possibly be
accurate or objective. Otherwise they would agree with your findings.

In the face of such an impenetrable tautology there is little I can add.

I would only say that discussions with you seem to follow a predictable
path:

1. Disagree with Don
2. Don responds
3. Continue to disagree
4. Don claims objectivity and factual accuracy
5. Point out flaws in Don's understanding
6. Don insists that he has the only objective claim to the facts because
only his understanding is objective and factual
7. Repeat cycle from any convenient point.
 
UrbanVoyeur said:
Don wrote: SNIP

With a response like that, it should be clear to you why people find
your tone offensive.

Don't worry, I just filter Don's 'contributions' as it helps to
improve the signal to noise ratio, but from the reactions I can see he
hasn't changed. It's a shame though that it might put off others from
contributing. It's everybody's loss.

Sure Don, whatever you want to believe.
Oh, and about egg on face, I've been studying and providing input to
this and other newsgroups about HDR imaging since IIRC 2002, e.g.

LOL. I've been the one to provide a link to that document, and many
others, many years ago. I'd say the embarressment would suit you fine.
I can understand your excitement, because to date it is one of the
better implementations of tonemapping, but I've been there, seen it
all, done it all, long before you even knew it existed.

In the past I have also confronted Chris Cox of Adobe about the
inevitability of providing HDR support in Photoshop, which he rejected
at the time. It's amusing that Photoshop CS2 has now added the first
basic HDR functionality (although as Chris stated elsewhere, with some
bugs), but it's a start.

Don, feel free to comment, but I won't be reading your comment until
someone else quotes you, so don't expect me to be drawn in one of your
unproductive one way "dialogs". I somehow have a feeling I won't be
missing much.

Lighten up, have fun, and keep smiling.

Bart
 
With a response like that, it should be clear to you why people find
your tone offensive.

Excuse me...?

Sniping from the sidelines and hiding behind a comment is what's
offensive!

If Bart doesn't like Don then *ignore* him. Or be a man and respond
directly. Don't loudly proclaim to filter him but then obsess with his
comments. That's just pathetic.
I don't think you have any idea just how off putting, condescending and
generally insulting your tone is.

I beg your pardon? Are we reading the same thread? Here's the top line
again:
"Maybe Don has a misconception of what blooming is?"

That's what's really:
"off putting, condescending and generally insulting"
And cowardly too, because it was sniped from the sidelines hiding
behind a comment.
Dialing back the Vuescan rhetoric would also help in this regard.

Except, of course, *everything* I wrote about VueScan is factual and
*independently verifiable*.

No rhetoric. Just facts.

Don.
 
Sure Don, whatever you want to believe.

The fact that you can't wait for someone else to comment and give you
an excuse to jump in, says it all.

That inconsistency is what's putting egg on your face...
Don, feel free to comment, but I won't be reading your comment until
someone else quotes you

That's the equivalent of a 3-year old with hands over his ears and
screaming: "I'm not listening!".

Your frequent and loud protestations about filtering would sound much
more credible if you ignored the comments too! Otherwise, it's a case
of, as Shakespeare would say: "The lady doth protest too much!".

If you really go through the trouble of filtering because you find my
messages so unpalatable the unavoidable question is:

Why obsess with the comments, then?

Oh wait, but you will "not read" this message. Riiiggghhht... How
convenient.
Lighten up, have fun, and keep smiling.

Ditto. Plus keep praying and hoping nobody quotes this, so you have to
face the consequences...

Don.
 
I do understand that poorly aligned images can produce fringing, but
somehow you refuse to accept that I'm not talking about poorly aligned
images.

Time to reign in the discussion again. I know you hate to get
specific, but it's the only way... ;o)

Please post examples of this "blooming" including:

- the series used to generate the HDR image
- parameters and/or settings in the HDR program
- the final result

so that everyone can independently and objectively evaluate the data.

Don.
 
You refuse to believe that I could possibly have different *valid*
results from you

Not only do I believe that. I *know* that, from your repeated
insistence.

I don't doubt your *results*. I doubt your *methods* and your (mis-)
*interpretation*!

My invitation in a parallel message for you to post specific examples
should clear this up conclusively.
Your methods and findings are universal - because they are in fact
objective, and as such apply to all cases, everywhere. Because your
methods are objective so are your results and any findings to the
contrary are summarily dismissed because they can not possibly be
accurate or objective. Otherwise they would agree with your findings.

That's a mischaracterization. They are not "my" methods, or "my"
findings. They are *objective* methods and findings, both verifiable
and supported by independent review. The only way to counter them is
with facts to the contrary using corresponding references.

Just saying "I don't agree" is not enough. "Show me the money!"
1. Disagree with Don
2. Don responds

.... with objective *facts* supported by independent verification and
references!
3. Continue to disagree

....with feelings and subjective opinion.
4. Don claims objectivity and factual accuracy

And has the quotes and sources to prove it!
5. Point out flaws in Don's understanding

*Alleged* flaws! No facts to support this allegation are ever given.
Instead, a subjective "feeling" is provided as absolute "proof".
6. Don insists that he has the only objective claim to the facts because
only his understanding is objective and factual

Nope. Don insists, he provided the facts and is waiting for the facts
from the other side. They never come. Just more "subjective feelings".
7. Repeat cycle from any convenient point.

Nope. Don re-calibrates the discussion and asks for specifics.

At this point, the other side does one, or more, of the following

- suddenly finds it has some other "urgent" matter to attend to
- hurls abuse
- pretends to filter
- acts "offended"
- and, basically, does everything to avoid answering...

Don.
 
Don said:
It's *objective facts* that say so, not Don!

But objective facts don't say anything about the knowledge or competence of
the person at the receiving end, whereas Don does! Don rarely states just
the facts, objective or otherwise - he often accompanies them with a snipe
at the other person's knowledge or competence, e.g. "That shows that you do
not understand the most basic concept of HDR:" and "That shows, again, that
you don't really understand HDR." etc, etc. A sensitive person (like me
:-) ) recognises that such statements may well be seen as condescending,
i.e. "Listen to me - I know much more about this than you do. You're not
bright enough to grasp this" and that it is likely to ruffle feathers. So I
wouldn't use such phrases, even if I *thought* they were true, in the
interests of a civil discussion or, in the case of a face to face
encounter - self preservation!

Unless you are a recognised world authority in a subject, no-one is going to
take your word as gospel (even if you are correct). Yet your posts declare
absolute certainty - no room here for doubt - it's all objective fact. Yet
people are questionning whether what you say is, indeed, objective fact. A
that point, you have to accept a difference of opinion - others too have
read the source of your facts and come to different conclusions. To assert
that your knowledge is superior is likely to be seen, at least by some, to
be arrogant.

One thing which can *never* be objective is whether a remark *is* offensive.
Some take offence easily, others less so. So we use our experience of life
to gauge what is *likely* to give offence. If, for example, I met Ed Hamrick
in a pub and to his face and in public called him 'incompetent' - I would
expect to wake up in hospital. Usenet is perhaps a little more forgiving - I
might end up in somone's killfile - but the offence is no less real. In the
end, the choice is yours - is it more important that your views prevail over
all, to the point where you have to argue every detailed point to the death,
or are you simply trying to impart your knowledge and experience for the
benefit of all? The secret is knowing where and when to stop, and to leave
the door of self doubt at least ajar if not wide open. You seem reluctant to
concede anyone else's argument, with the occasional exception of Kennedy.
No-one (not even you :-) ) is correct 100% of the time. If you insist that
you are, you will always be questioned. Of course, it may turn out that Don
is really Bruce Fraser and we'll all have to eat our words. However, even
Bruce Fraser's word isn't universally taken as gospel and he *is* a world
authority. No-one is exempt from the need for a little humility.

As I have said/implied before, language is a powerful tool. Choose your
words carefully. World peace depends on it!

The observations of a neutral observer - and one with all his teeth intact
:-)
 
With great trepidation at what I started, I'm going to post a new
observation regarding the effect of long exposures on my ScanMultiPro:

Since I found that checking "Exposure Lock" gives me manual control of
scanning exposure I have made some single scans at different levels of
exposure and experimented with HDRShop. It looks like (shudder!) both
sides are right. High level exposures (8 and above) yield
artifact-filled images and Vuescan makes them even worse by the method
it uses to combine them when "Long Exposure Scan" is checked.

I now pull my head down into the trench and hope the shrapnel blows
over in a month or two.

If anybody wants to see clips of images that display the problem I saw,
I'll put them up on my webpage, but I'll only do that in the interest
of terminating this most unproductive argument (the two views were
established about 35 posts ago or earlier and no actual experimental
evidence has yet to be offered - 'till now, but then I couldn't bring
myself to read all of the bickering).

I'm not terribly anxious to post the images on my website, so, if it
doesn't do anything to conclude the useless arguments in this thread in
some positive manner and keep comments to the straight and narrow (stop
the harangues, please) I don't see why I should bother. If, however,
anyone requests sample images off-list and promises to reply only to
me, maybe I'll start a new thread with excerpted comments that I feel
are relevant - maybe! This means, Don, that I won't forward any
anti-Vuescan/Hamrick diatribes, only statements relevent to the images.

While I'm at it, I suggest, Don, that you setup a Vuescan Bugs website
and use that as a forum for providing useful information about the
software's problems in a form that may actually help Vuescan users who,
like me, are simply unwilling to wade through the crap to find any real
nuggets of information that these offensive posts may contain. That way
you can simply cite your website in a reply instead of carrying out
these long anti-Vuescan polemics that no one in his or her right mind
would be willing to sift for information of value. But, if you do that,
please be consciencious in including all thoughtful and polite replies
and rebuttals to your assertions - let the arguements take place there
and free-up this group for less vitriolic posts.

Back to the topic at hand: if anybody wants to pick up this thread in a
relevant, polite and strictly factual manner, please email me directly
for JPEGs of sample scans; if there is enough interest (if you've read
this far through the previous 39 posts, I'll count that as a definite
YES!) I'll post them publicly and maybe start a new thread.

Frank
 
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