Prescott with 64-bit extensions coming in June

[The little lost angel]

that when they hovered the mouse cursor over a URL in their e-mail (spoofed
from a friend) the URL actually pointed to a local attached file. Another

Blame it partly on the braindead practise by M$ to turn off extension
display by default.

common way to get infected is where people take notebooks home every
evening - they bring the worm back with them the next day, thus bypassing
the company firewall.

Which is why they should have their OWN software firewall too ppp

You don't have to be stupid to get infected but it helps. There are, of
course, people who think that clicking LiveUpdate first thing every morning
is total protection; the same guys often indulge in all kinds of risky
behavior, with "enhanced search/toolbar" doohickeys and peer-to-peer crap
software.... because they think they're "protected".

Hey! I resent that last bit! I do my fair share of peer to peer and
I'm still uninfected. ppP

--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

 

[Yousuf Khan]

Hey! I resent that last bit! I do my fair share of peer to peer and
I'm still uninfected. ppP

Again, you're a power user, you don't represent the typical computer user
who uses P2P without understanding what they are downloading.

Yousuf Khan

 

[Judd]

It is *not* vapor to developers right now and its non-appearnce at CompUSA
is not *known* to be for technical reasons. To say it's not "built" is
rubbish by any acknowledged software standards.

Here's your first caveat... "to developers" which is a tiny community in the
software world. "To developers" isn't even accurate. It's only
"developers" that have cared to get involved in early development. That's
an even smaller group. Name the software standard that wouldn't call this
vapor? Since you've acknowledged that this is a standard, please list it!

As I've tried to get across, a large part of the consumer market is now
"upgrade"... == wiser. The consumer market is becoming increasingly
sophisticated in its appreciation... and demands. Digital cameras,
digi-videocams, home media centers/networks, etc will do that.

Digital cameras doesn't make them wiser... LOL. None the wiser for
anything. If you can work a VCR, are you an expert on electronic
engineering? That's quite a leap of faith. It is wholly untrue also. Most
consumers don't know what 64-bit gets them. It's just another catchy
buzzword to them. If the consumers were intelligent, they would probably
shun the 64-bit for a marked down 32-bit since there is little to be gained
from having 64-bit at this moment for most consumers.

You have definitely not been paying attention then. The 64-bit nature of
Prescott has been exposed for over a year now:
http://www.chip-architect.com/. It is also interesting that AFAIK we have
not even been given a clue on its performance in 64-bit mode.

Yes, I saw that long ago. It was a reach by most estimations but we all
kept it in the back of our minds anyway. It was known more than 2 years ago
that Intel was working on Yamhill but would only release a product if they
had to (market pressure driven by media frenzy for a new buzzword). I'm
still shocked about it being a 3rd quarter 2004 product though. It seems a
bit hasty but perhaps their partners were pushing it hard (such as Dell)
and the sales numbers looked right for it.

 

[Judd]

I work with a lot of families through high/middle school connections,
here in Silicon Valley, and it's my experience that the bulk of
computer users really don't have a clue what's in their box. They
know the brand name (HP, Dell, whatever) and (generally) the OS, but
don't have any idea the CPU speed, AMD or Intel, even how much RAM or
how big a HD they have. They get advice from a salesman at Best Buy
or a friend who reads PC Mag, buy it, and that's it until it quits
working right and they call someone to help.

Sure, the techies know that stuff, but there are so many more people
who still have all the vendor-installed icons on their desktop (Free
AOL Trial!) a year after they bought it because they don't know what
they can delete or not, or even that they *can* delete it. IME, the
bulk of PC consumers today have no more idea what's inside their PC
than they do what's inside their TV.

You are correct sir and you are in Silicon valley so I doubt these are first
time users like George is implying. Most users really aren't that savvy.
They think they are because they know the buzzwords et. al but they really
have little idea.

 

[George Macdonald]

Blame it partly on the braindead practise by M$ to turn off extension
display by default.

The local file link, pretending to be a URL to a Web site should be enough
to trigger a suspicion.

Which is why they should have their OWN software firewall too ppp

The M$ one in XP is umm, clumsy and of course, you can only shut out *some*
of the possible attacks.

Hey! I resent that last bit! I do my fair share of peer to peer and
I'm still uninfected. ppP

As long as you know what you are doing and not on a company computer... and
I hope you run Ad-Aware and Spybot-S&D regularly then - they lie about what
they do to your computer: the ones who proclaim themselves clean the
loudest are the worst. Quite frankly the whole idea of running
peer-to-peer over the Internet just make me quake.

The people who get caught with "enhanced" browser tools and peer-to-peer
will swear up and down that "I didn't do anything - it wuzn't me!"

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

[George Macdonald]

Here's your first caveat... "to developers" which is a tiny community in the
software world. "To developers" isn't even accurate. It's only
"developers" that have cared to get involved in early development. That's
an even smaller group. Name the software standard that wouldn't call this
vapor? Since you've acknowledged that this is a standard, please list it!

You can try twisting what I've said around all you want, it won't change
the fact of what "built" means. I did not say there was a standard for
vapor in terms of software so I won't get sucked into that thank you. I've
worked in software for a long while and I consider it "built" when I have
first versions which function as designed. Call that an Alpha version if
you like - it is "built" IMO and the opinion of most people I've worked
with.

There is still work to do of course but in this context, Windows XP-64 for
x86 is still way beyond Alpha... more like RC-final if you're cynical about
M$'s relationship with "i". Linux also is way beyond "built". Oracle has
already announced, months ago, that it took 2-3 days to recompile and have
a working version for Linux - no mean feat when you consider the code size.
Only people internal to Oracle know how close it is to ready for release to
users... who are not, despite your presumption, part of the "software
world".

Digital cameras doesn't make them wiser... LOL. None the wiser for
anything. If you can work a VCR, are you an expert on electronic
engineering? That's quite a leap of faith.

Entirely *your* leap though... with a ludicrous analogy. Sure there are
many who have the ubiquitous flashing 12:00 symptom in the world of VCRs.
People who have digital cameras *do* get to appreciate the effects of large
files and the impact of processing of them for various photo-effects they
want to achieve... and no, I'm not talking about someone with a 2Megapixel
snapshot job.

It is wholly untrue also. Most
consumers don't know what 64-bit gets them. It's just another catchy
buzzword to them. If the consumers were intelligent, they would probably
shun the 64-bit for a marked down 32-bit since there is little to be gained
from having 64-bit at this moment for most consumers.

You surely *do* acknowledge that we're both speculating here - there's no
right or wrong. We'll see what the truth is eventually. Once again, you
seem to have illustrated how out of touch you are with reality: there is no
need for "marked down" to get a 64-bit Athlon64 CPU - the CPUs *and* mbrds
are in the same $$ ballpark as the Athlon XP versions and the Intel P4s.
The system incremental cost, market segmentation notwithstanding, is
negligible and the benefits of the new AMD 64-bit ISA are far more than a
simple addressability extension... but I'm sure you knew that.;-)

Yes, I saw that long ago. It was a reach by most estimations but we all
kept it in the back of our minds anyway.

Obviously it was *no* reach! If you were part of "most estimations" you
were wrong back then. Personally I was quite convinced.

It was known more than 2 years ago
that Intel was working on Yamhill but would only release a product if they
had to (market pressure driven by media frenzy for a new buzzword). I'm
still shocked about it being a 3rd quarter 2004 product though. It seems a
bit hasty but perhaps their partners were pushing it hard (such as Dell)
and the sales numbers looked right for it.

It was also known that Intel denied the existence of Yamhill. Undoubtedly,
Michael Dell is now cleaning out his drawers... err shorts... hard to say
on that last.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

[Neil Maxwell]

Like I said, there's difference between first-timers, which you seem to be
talking about (high/middle school) and the 2nd-time-arounders. Go look at
some of the forums on digital cameras, video processing etc. Then there's
the kids who are into network parties and the likes - I see them getting up
to speed pretty quickly. The difference here is that where the motivation
for owning a computer is to do something useful with it, rather than just
because the want to have a computer, people learn quite quickly and know
what they want.

Actually, I'm talking about the parents. Some of the kids know some
of this stuff, but the parents actually buy the gear and have to fix
the more serious problems. It's a pretty easy thing to check out,
particularly if you've got kids in school and/or interact with
parents.

In any middle-class and above neighborhood, virtually everyone with
kids has one or more computers. If you go up to them and ask them
what kind and how fast their CPU is and how much RAM they've got, I'd
bet you'd get 9 out of 10 blank stares or garbled answers. At least,
that's how it is around here, despite being in one of the technology
hotbeds in the USA. Maybe it's because I help people with their PCs
and only get the clueless ones, giving me a skewed perspective.


Neil Maxwell - I don't speak for my employer

 

[George Macdonald]

Actually, I'm talking about the parents. Some of the kids know some
of this stuff, but the parents actually buy the gear and have to fix
the more serious problems. It's a pretty easy thing to check out,
particularly if you've got kids in school and/or interact with
parents.

In any middle-class and above neighborhood, virtually everyone with
kids has one or more computers. If you go up to them and ask them
what kind and how fast their CPU is and how much RAM they've got, I'd
bet you'd get 9 out of 10 blank stares or garbled answers. At least,
that's how it is around here, despite being in one of the technology
hotbeds in the USA. Maybe it's because I help people with their PCs
and only get the clueless ones, giving me a skewed perspective.

Maybe something to do with the high lawyer count in Silicon Valley
population??

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

[Judd]

it!

You can try twisting what I've said around all you want, it won't change
the fact of what "built" means. I did not say there was a standard for
vapor in terms of software so I won't get sucked into that thank you. I've
worked in software for a long while and I consider it "built" when I have
first versions which function as designed. Call that an Alpha version if
you like - it is "built" IMO and the opinion of most people I've worked
with.

Well, I'll just let you and those people you work with have your alpha
software. 2 lines of compiled code could be a build by your definition...
which is fine with me... but the masses consider it the final release (the
actual copy they can purchase that has hopefully gone through a full cycle
of validation and verification).

There is still work to do of course but in this context, Windows XP-64 for
x86 is still way beyond Alpha... more like RC-final if you're cynical about
M$'s relationship with "i". Linux also is way beyond "built". Oracle has
already announced, months ago, that it took 2-3 days to recompile and have
a working version for Linux - no mean feat when you consider the code size.
Only people internal to Oracle know how close it is to ready for release to
users... who are not, despite your presumption, part of the "software
world".

Still work to do... they are still making major changes to SP2 (they aren't
shipping XP-64 before SP2 apparently). Again, it's vapor until it is on the
shelves ready to be bought by the general public or at least being sold with
new systems.

Entirely *your* leap though... with a ludicrous analogy. Sure there are
many who have the ubiquitous flashing 12:00 symptom in the world of VCRs.
People who have digital cameras *do* get to appreciate the effects of large
files and the impact of processing of them for various photo-effects they
want to achieve... and no, I'm not talking about someone with a 2Megapixel
snapshot job.

Point is, these people aren't sophisticated users. No matter how you
package them. Their knowledge is minimal.

You surely *do* acknowledge that we're both speculating here - there's no
right or wrong. We'll see what the truth is eventually. Once again, you
seem to have illustrated how out of touch you are with reality: there is no
need for "marked down" to get a 64-bit Athlon64 CPU - the CPUs *and* mbrds
are in the same $$ ballpark as the Athlon XP versions and the Intel P4s.
The system incremental cost, market segmentation notwithstanding, is
negligible and the benefits of the new AMD 64-bit ISA are far more than a
simple addressability extension... but I'm sure you knew that.;-)

Again, when Intel comes out with a new Prescott with 64-bit extensions...
you'll see them drop the price of their previous CPUs to bargain level. It
happens everytime. I'm not sure what you are arguing about. New
generations are almost always more expensive simply due to cost cutting
measures and reduction of inventory. It's pretty simple economics.

Obviously it was *no* reach! If you were part of "most estimations" you
were wrong back then. Personally I was quite convinced.

So was my ouiji board (about the level of sophistication they offered).

It was also known that Intel denied the existence of Yamhill. Undoubtedly,
Michael Dell is now cleaning out his drawers... err shorts... hard to say
on that last.

There were reports from Intel execs that said they could produce it if the
market necessitated it but that it didn't so they weren't. It was enough of
an inference though to know they had something cooking in the background.
It was just not known until recently how serious they were about the
project.

 

[Neil Maxwell]

Maybe something to do with the high lawyer count in Silicon Valley
population??

Nah, not so many lawyers around here, AFAICT (not in the middle class
neighborhoods I hang out in, at least). They're like bad dogs or loud
jerks, though - it only takes a few to screw things up for everybody.


Neil Maxwell - I don't speak for my employer

 

[George Macdonald]

Well, I'll just let you and those people you work with have your alpha
software. 2 lines of compiled code could be a build by your definition...
which is fine with me... but the masses consider it the final release (the
actual copy they can purchase that has hopefully gone through a full cycle
of validation and verification).

If it takes an absurd backwards extrapolation and twisting again of what
I've said to reduce it to your purpose (worked with != work with), to uhh,

Still work to do... they are still making major changes to SP2 (they aren't
shipping XP-64 before SP2 apparently). Again, it's vapor until it is on the
shelves ready to be bought by the general public or at least being sold with
new systems.

I do hope you read the announcements yesterday then. Oracle for Linux-64
is now officially "available" for use as is the developer version for
WinXP-64, as is IBM's developer version of DB2 for WinXP-64. If such
products are available I'd guess they were not brought to fruition on
vapor... non-existent OS and non-existent compilers and developer
environments as you have previously speculated.

As for Win XP-64 the smell of chicanery gets stronger by the day. Makes
you wonder how much longer M$ will pander to big daddy's tardiness... as
Linux jumps forward.... again.

Point is, these people aren't sophisticated users. No matter how you
package them. Their knowledge is minimal.

I dunno if you work in the industry or not but it's not a good idea, in any
business, to insult the umm, "audience".;-)

Again, when Intel comes out with a new Prescott with 64-bit extensions...
you'll see them drop the price of their previous CPUs to bargain level. It
happens everytime. I'm not sure what you are arguing about. New
generations are almost always more expensive simply due to cost cutting
measures and reduction of inventory. It's pretty simple economics.

I'm not sure what you mean by "previous CPUs". You think they're going to
continue producing Northwood P4s? You seem to be missing the fact that
Intel is not entirely in control this time around... and the fact that
it'll be common knowledge that they have to intentionally cripple the
Prescott CPU *and* chipset/mbrd to produce a bargain basement system...
which has near-zero margin anyway.

So was my ouiji board (about the level of sophistication they offered).

Throw away the ouiji board - it's not working.

There were reports from Intel execs that said they could produce it if the
market necessitated it but that it didn't so they weren't. It was enough of
an inference though to know they had something cooking in the background.
It was just not known until recently how serious they were about the
project.

What they said, at the time of Yamhill, was that the path to 64-bit was
Itanium and that Yamhill did not exist. The story you mention is rather
more recent.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

[KR Williams]

@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, news.tally.bbbl67
@spamgourmet.com says...

Well, obviously Intel has already admitted to it, witness EM64T.

Where do I buy one? We were talking high-end home systems here
too. AFAIK, Intel believes only servers need >2GB.

 

[KR Williams]

My own suspicion is that a lot of power users will be going to 2GB as soon
as prices fall back to where they were, oh, 6 months ago. I know enough
people building 1GB machines as a matter of course even with the much higher
memory prices that as soon as they drop back, I suspect they'll start
doubling the RAM rather than saving the money.

Yep! For my recently purchased system (still in boxes, George) I
went with only 512MB (prices seemed to go up daily). When the
memory prices fall, I'll buy more.

Ditto for regular users going to 1GB. Next big price drop after that, we'll
be at 2GB.

I agree. ...and *long* before 2010.