J
jo
Mark said:
Nice one.
Not quite the case here though, is it?
Nice one.
Not quite the case here though, is it?
D
dszady
Garrett said:
You are correct on both counts.
D
dszady
[...]Susan said:
I snipped a lot to keep this in this thread and kept it OT to not have it
stand out on a seperate [PING].
Exellent job and the search engine was badly needed for noobs'.
It is another example of the tireless effort that you have put in for the
group and the standard that you have set for it.
Thank you.
G
Gord McFee
I've lurked and occasionally posted here for quite a while now, and I
find it pathetic and sad that the group is degenerating to this kind of
thing. Not your post; it was in fact reasoned and reasonable. But the
overall situation is deplorable. Post after post of bickering,
bitching, personal attacks, clique-forming, sniping and flaming. The
group cannot agree on anything anymore. We have two little groups, and
a whole lot more other people who are getting more and more
disillusioned every day. Fifteen people vote for something and that
represents the will of the freeware community. And why do so few people
vote? Read some of the threads and the answer will become clear: they
are sick of this shit and don't want to be associated with it.
If it weren't so pathetic, it would be laughable. So-called adults
acting like spoiled children.
P
Peter Seiler
Gord McFee - 20.08.2004 02:28 :
that's exactly my impression too.
that's exactly my impression too.
S
Susan Bugher
dszady said:
<blushing> Thank you for the kind words.
Susan
G
Garrett
Jack said:======================================================================
* Reply by Jack D. Russell, Sr. <[email protected]>
* Newsgroup: alt.comp.freeware
* Reply to: All; "Garrett" <[email protected]>
* Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:13:45 -0500 GMT
* Subj: Re: [PL] Revised Pricelessware Review Procedures
======================================================================
[Sorry, skipped]
G>Is this thread suppose to be a review the rules and proceedures,
G>or nominations for a new slogan and allowing linux software to be
G>littered within the windows software?
IMHO, neither. I think that it's more of a fishing expedition (for Red
herring) than anything else. YMMV.
LOL!!!!
-Garrett
G
Garrett
dszady said:Garrett said:
You are correct on both counts.
BTW, just so you know, I have nothing against linux systems at all. In
fact, I'm sure just about everyone would use linux if they were...
Mmmmmm as easy as a 9x system to install and use. They are getting
there of course.
But linux is having to pay a price now with regards to trying to become
a more viable system for all purposes like 9x systems. It's now
starting to suffer from severe bloat :-(
When I saw Debian listed in the Pricelessware list, I checked it out,
that is until I saw it required (Count'em!) *4 CD's*! *4 CD's*! *4
CD's*! *4 CD's*! (Tell'em Booker T!) I kringed at the thought of that
:-(
Even BeOS wasn't that big. BTW, in case anyone is interesed, BeOS was
released into the open source community and is being worked on by
several different groups who have released recent versions.
If other Systems are going to be allowed in the list, then we might
consider taking a look these variations of BeOS also, as well as
FreeDOS and a few others that are small and viable for many to use.
-Garrett
G
Garrett
Gord said:
Well, if you look at the current vote that is going on, you'll see that
many are participating. Why? Because they were given the opportunity
to do so. The topic was labled correctly, everyone could see that a
vote was going on in the thread. Previous votes for things were not
labled so and most people did not even know a vote was in progress
until it was too late for them to participate.
-Garrett
?
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=
I find it much easier to install and use GNU/Linux than Win9X, though
that depends on the Linux distribution chosen. Whether it's easier
to install and use Linux or WinXP is a toss-up.
This is simply not true.
If you want a Debian install, you can start with a single Mepis CD
then add packages you'd like to have installed, pretty much like
installing 9X then a bunch of apps from other CDs and the web. The
single Mepis CD gives you a full desktop environment, KDE. If you
get the 4-CD Debian set, it's unlikely you will ever need to download
or install any more apps to work with that OS.
If I want to reinstall Win98se, I use two disks, the main one and the
"Security Update CD". For WinXP, it's three, including the separate
SP1a disk I have. I guess SP2 will add one more disk to the pile.
As I recall it, BeOS was discussed along with Debian and others last
time around.
M
Mark Carter
Agreed. I like Linux, and think that computers would be much better with
it.
Probably best not to hold your breath, though.
There's a kind of chicken-and-egg problem. One of the reasons Linux is
unpopular is that it lacks good driver support. And it lacks good driver
support because it is unpopular.
Linux on the desktop: not this year. Not next year, either. Maybe in
five years, if the wind is in the right direction.
The thing is, most small companies, even those with a modicum of IT
staff, are probably not going to want to faff around getting a Linux
system up and running. They're going to 'phone up Dell, and buy whatever
piece of kit seems reasonable. Now, if Dell were to offer a computer
system, but lopped £50 off the price of a system if it had Linux on it,
then that may start to have some impact. But we all know about Microsoft
bullyboy tactics, so that aint gonna happen.
On the other hand, if the clients at my company (who are big oil
companies), suddenly decided that Microsoft was out, and Linux was in,
you can bet that we would have Linux running on all of our systems in a
week. And it would really do my job prospects a world of good.
it.
Probably best not to hold your breath, though.
There's a kind of chicken-and-egg problem. One of the reasons Linux is
unpopular is that it lacks good driver support. And it lacks good driver
support because it is unpopular.
Linux on the desktop: not this year. Not next year, either. Maybe in
five years, if the wind is in the right direction.
The thing is, most small companies, even those with a modicum of IT
staff, are probably not going to want to faff around getting a Linux
system up and running. They're going to 'phone up Dell, and buy whatever
piece of kit seems reasonable. Now, if Dell were to offer a computer
system, but lopped £50 off the price of a system if it had Linux on it,
then that may start to have some impact. But we all know about Microsoft
bullyboy tactics, so that aint gonna happen.
On the other hand, if the clients at my company (who are big oil
companies), suddenly decided that Microsoft was out, and Linux was in,
you can bet that we would have Linux running on all of our systems in a
week. And it would really do my job prospects a world of good.
B
BillR
dszady said:
I also just noticed the addition of search in PLHome yesterday. This
is a very welcome addition. Please remember when feeling beleaguered
while reading any of my kvetching that I am a grateful ungrateful
wretch.
BillR
S
Susan Bugher
BillR said:
Good.
Please remember when feeling beleaguered
I will - if you'll remember the same for me.
Susan
G
Gordon Darling
???????????????????
http://search.dell.com/results.aspx?cat=all&s=gen&c=us&l=en&cs=&k=linux&x=0&y=0
"Dell Desktops
...businesses with proprietary software images or special Linux needs,
these systems come without a MicrosoftÂ...series systems are available
with factory installed Linux. Dell PrecisionTM 370n NEW! Cutting-Edge
Performance...
Featured Desktops
...select systems, software and peripheral items. Dell PrecisionTM 360n
with Linux Small Mini-tower Dell PrecisionTM 360n with Linux Small
Desktop $849 $774 [Save $75 Instantly.] Limited time offer. Monitor...
Buy Direct from Dell
...lower cost than most proprietary systems, either on Linux or Windows.
This collaboration brings the knowledge...PowerEdge servers. Also
included is Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES, ideal for performance when
using Oracle 10g solutions...
Regards
Gordon
A
Aaron
This still does not negate the fact that there *are* 2 cliques of
regulars around bitching and fighting everytime something associated with
pricelessware is mentioned. I'm sure I don't need to point to you the
threads and posts I'm talking about.
That I feel is sickening.
R
Roger Johansson
No, because we were forced to.
I had no wish to vote about this. But I had to when some people
threatened to exclude all non-windows programs, and I am sure many
others feel the same.
In the future I hope such votings cannot be initiated by anybody without
preceeding discussions about if there really is a need for a voting.
Votings initiated by anybody without a big support for such a voting
should not be valid, whatever the result is.
Otherwise we would be forced to participate in lots of votings initiated
by opposition groups who are struggling for power, just to defend status
quo.
Maybe it would be best if the person we have elected to handle votings
handle all necessary votings. If she judges that a voting is not needed
there will be no voting.
I had no wish to vote about this. But I had to when some people
threatened to exclude all non-windows programs, and I am sure many
others feel the same.
In the future I hope such votings cannot be initiated by anybody without
preceeding discussions about if there really is a need for a voting.
Votings initiated by anybody without a big support for such a voting
should not be valid, whatever the result is.
Otherwise we would be forced to participate in lots of votings initiated
by opposition groups who are struggling for power, just to defend status
quo.
Maybe it would be best if the person we have elected to handle votings
handle all necessary votings. If she judges that a voting is not needed
there will be no voting.
G
Garrett
Roger said:
You would have been forced to if Susan brought it to vote, right? But
you would not have said you were forced now would you. More likely you
would not have even known about it because it would have been buried in
a thread that didn't give you a chance to vote.
BTW, no one is forced to vote. It's up to each person if they want to
vote. But that's not the problem that I saw. The problem I saw was
that people are not always getting a fair chance to vote at all. But I
have to assume by your words that you don't feel that way.
Hmmmm.... I like the sound of that myself
The person that was elected? to handle the voting process is in charge
of handling the vote process for electing programs or removing programs
from the pricelessware list.
Here's what I think. I think that if a person is supposedly
representing the list with a site, that they should not be allowed to
handle any of the voting process at all. It's an open invitation for
bias and abuse of power. No single person should be in charge of every
aspect of Pricelessware, site, voting etc. That's not a democracy,
that's a dictatorship.
Each aspect should be handled by different people, Nominations should
be handled by one person, voting of the list should be handled by
another, and someone else for other issues that lead to a vote that
regard the list.
This means, that if someone is maintaining the site, they should not be
allowed to handle any voting process at all, and vice versa, anyone
that handles any voting process should not be allowed to run the site.
I think this should be a discussion for everyone to input on. I think
maybe we should setup some guidelines and outline the responsibilities
and extent of powers that such people and positions should have.
I also feel that we should have a set in stone rule about how any and
all voting is handled. This would keep from having hidden shotgun
votes and allow everyone to know when and where a vote is taking place.
So here's my suggestion:
1. Website:
A. Site maintainer(s) should not be involved in handling/
maintaining nominations or voting processes.
B. Each person should be voted into these positions every
year.
C. There should be two people involved in maintaining the
site, one will serve as the main point of reference for
the site, the second will serve as a backup and aid the
first in times of need.
D. Those involved in the site are not allowed to make changes,
additions or deletion of anything without the consent of
the group. If no consent, then it remains as is. This
also includes site design, and all other aspects to the
site.
a. Site designs can be submitted for voting by the group
by anyone who wishes to do so when the group decides
it's time for a new design.
b. The addition of new content to the site itself must
be voted upon by the group.
c. The removal of content to the site itself must
be voted upon by the group.
E. Site maintainer(s) are allowed to participate in voting.
2. Pricelessware List Yearly Voting:
A. One or two people should handle the nominations and
voting process for the listing inclusions and removals
each year.
B. These people will not be allowed to handle any other
voting processes or be allowed to maintain the site.
C. Each person should be voted into these positions every
year.
D. These people will not be allowed to participate in the
nominations and voting of inclusions and removal of items
in the list.
3. Other Voting:
A. Three people should handle voting processes that pertain
to other needs of the pricelessware list and the site.
C. These people will not be allowed to handle any other
voting processes or be allowed to maintain the site.
D. Each person should be voted into these positions every
year.
E. These people will not be allowed to participate in the
voting processes that they are handling.
4. Pre-Voting Discussions:
A. Discussions for a potential vote of any nature should
be properly labelled for the group to see. If it is not,
then then any outcome will be voided.
B. Discussions should be allowed to run for at least one
week (7 days) before the issue is either brought to
a vote, or denied a vote due to lack of interest.
C. To bring an issue to vote (other than the yearly vote
for inclusions and removals to the list) it will require
at least ten (10) people who agree that the issue should
be brought to vote for the group. If not, the issue
is not brought to vote and no action taken regarding
the issue.
5. Calling a Vote:
A. A call to vote should be properly labelled for the
group to see. If not, then any outcome will be voided.
B. Voting should be allowed to run for at least two
weeks (14 days) before it is closed and tallied.
C. A vote will only be considered valid if more than 50
unique voters have participated. If not, the vote is
pronounced void due to lack of interest.
D. No discussions will be allowed in the voting thread,
since all discussion should have been taken care of
in the pre-voting discussion thread.
This is just suggestion of course and is open to discussion, editing,
additions etc... But I really do feel that we need these things if we
are to avoid as many problems as possible.
If we set guidelines, then we have something solid to stand on and
follow.
Best regards,
-Garrett
?
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=
If there were enough volunteers to handle things that way, I too think
it would be good if the PL voting were completely separated from any
list website. But I don't think there are enough volunteers, and I
certainly don't think there are enough volunteers to fill all the roles
you proposed in the part I snipped. Perhaps next year someone
unaffilitated with a website will volunteer to take the lead in the
discussion/nomination/voting process that selects the list. After
having seen what Genna and Susan have had to go through in that role,
all I can be sure of is that it won't be me, heh.
Even if the group somehow managed to agree to something like your
suggested framework of specified roles for certain people, there would
be no way to prevent anyone from starting a discussion or voting
thread. We'd still have to rely on the best judgement of everyone
here.
G
Garrett
»Q« said:
I'm not so sure on that these days. There's quite a few people who
seem very passionate about the list, so they might just be willing to
offer their passion to help out.
And I think with a few more people directly involved, it would take the
strain off of any single person, such as Susan with the voting process
each year, or whatever. You know what I mean.
True, but with a structure and some guidelines in place, it would at
least curb much of the hoopla and make it I think more organized for
these events, and easier to handle them.
Ok, do you think if we found enough people willing to help out that the
idea might work though?
-Garrett
R
Roger Johansson
»Q« said:
I got a headache from only reading the beginning of that elaborate and
over-worked proposal. I think Garrett should get into real politics,
starting a new party and rewriting the constitution or something.
I bet he could become the next president of Uganda or some other poor
country, they would just give up and let him run the country, nobody
would have the stamina to argue against him and all his ideas.
Too much bureaucracy.