photonic x86 CPU design

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Terje Mathisen said:
Huh?

Please read my proposal instead of coming up with a strawman attack.

What I suggested was a way for a group of people/PCs to all donate some
local disk space as backup storage for the rest of the group.

Yes, you could get into a 'tragedy of the commons' situations, but it
would be easy to require that the space you donate is at least 1.x times
the space you require for (redundantly stored) backups.

OTOH, if you fly from San Jose to Portland one morning, and some other
person is doing the opposite trip, then you could arrange up front to
swap cars for the day.

Nothing is stolen, nothing is used without permit.

Terje

Forget it, Terje. You are dealing with a country where someone was
arrested and prosecuted for "stealing Wifi access". Not doing anything
nefarious, just using a wireless access point that was open near where
he happened to be. There is a certain type of mentality that will not be
happy until you and I are being nickel-and-dimed for every liter of air
we breath, every slight pleasure we get from seeing a pretty girl, for
the relief of the shade some building provides us in summer, for the
share of rain that falls on our house and garden.

Maynard Handley
 
Maynard said:
Forget it, Terje. You are dealing with a country where someone was
arrested and prosecuted for "stealing Wifi access". Not doing anything
nefarious, just using a wireless access point that was open near where
he happened to be. There is a certain type of mentality that will not be
happy until you and I are being nickel-and-dimed for every liter of air
we breath, every slight pleasure we get from seeing a pretty girl, for
the relief of the shade some building provides us in summer, for the
share of rain that falls on our house and garden.

Maynard Handley
for those satellite radio waves that impinge on our brains without our
permission.

For the contents of those streaming music files on the internet...

For driving across those bridges just sitting there...

For parking on that lot outside that business while you go to the movies
or eat somewhere....

And that jewelry that was left on the dresser in that unlocked house...

Sorry, that wifi access point is someone's property that they paid for.
Why should someone else be able to use it without permission? Should
I be able to use my neighbors wireless router just because he didn't
enable encryption?

If I know Terje is going to be in SF, and left his car at the airport in
LA, is it all right to go use it while he is out of town so long as I
put it back?


Since when is it evil to safeguard one's property and prosecute those
who take it without permission except as allowed by law?
 
Colonel said:
The key idea is that unutilized human labor is effectively free, so
why not use it?

Answer: You didn't pay for it, and it doesn't belong to you.

Thats bulshit. Humanity is one thing. When large asteroid will wipe
out all life on our planet because some greedy suckers did not want
to donate their computing time for solving the problem of finding and
stopping it, where will you be with your very private unused parking lot?
I say, donating unused resources for comunity purposes should be
_mandated_ by law for everybody as long as it does not cost anything. Of
cause increased computing load costs money to maintain, so this cost
has to be compensated to whoever does the maintaining. But wasting
resources (be it computational, intellectual or any other non-consumable
resources) by not using them is a crime against humanity and Life as
such.

Regards,
Evgenij
 
Bill said:
Cost vs. reliability with a touch of security involved in that equation,
Absolutely.

some of which I suspect are minimal factors for you so you are ignoring
them for others.

Actually, I'm probably considerably better aware of them than you are,
considering the content of your post.
Network storage makes the storage hardware and every part of the network
(including network administration) a chain of points of failure,

Ah, but not *single* points of failure in the sense that a typical local
hard disk is. There's a major difference, as anyone evenly passingly
familiar with the effects of component redundancy on MTTF should understand.

(Plus, of course, the fact that the network exists *anyway* for other
purposes such as communication and data-sharing: it's not as if you
could get along without it if you didn't centralize the workstation
storage. And any well-run corporate network is already at least
somewhat insulated from single points of failure, with redundant paths
among switches and offices such that typical failures - if they are
user-visible at all - at worst require switching your Ethernet cable
from one wall jack to an adjacent one.)

and
points of attack on security.

Au contraire, I'm afraid: the central and (easily ensured) competent
management of security of a server (and the network to get to it) makes
it considerably *more* secure than any individual workstation - and
insulates at least the read-only data used by each workstation from any
unpleasant software (or flaky hardware) that the workstation's user may,
deliberately or inadvertently, allow to run there.

That means that not all cases have the
same solution, "least capatal expense" isn't the same as lowest TCO,

Exactly. For example, the TCO of storage is estimated to be close to an
order of magnitude higher than the purchase cost of the storage - and
that's for *centralized high-end* storage, so it's got to be at least
two orders of magnitude higher than the kind of storage we're talking
about here (e.g., something resembling an Isilon NAS).

Centralize that inexpensive storage and you not only pay for the network
to distribute it in saved management costs but get more general
centralized workstation support in the bargain.

The cost of a failed local hard disk containing significant amounts of
work backed up casually if at all amounts to anything from $1000 on up
(that being a conservative estimate of the cost of one person's overhead
- salary, benefits, workspace overhead - for a day's work, pretty much
ignoring the value of any data lost since the last time it was backed
up, plus the cost of the person who has to deal with the resulting
problem: installing a new disk, OS, and all relevant applications, and
then helping the user get everything personalized back to the way it
used to be). The far more common cost, however, is simply that of
setting up the workstation in the first place (in the absence of any
hardware failure at all) - which can rival the hardware cost of the
workstation itself (not just the disk inside it).
particularly if the cost of downtime or data exposure is high.

Right again - it's amazing how you can draw such garbage conclusions
from basically correct input.

Centralized storage largely eliminates workstation downtime due to
storage problems - and with suitable snapshot-style facilities (let
alone the various 'continuous data protection' mechanisms which are
beginning to appear) can significantly (or in the case of CDP
completely) protect the workstation user from *any* loss of persistent
data, even due to fumble-fingers or active malware.
The cost of a PC class system is not much more than the cost of
terminals, because fewer people use terminals.

Right yet again. Which is why it makes little sense to place CPUs back
in the data center along with the data they access: unlike storage,
cycles are *not* as effectively provided remotely, are *not* as easily
time-shared without potential loss of performance, and *are* easily
replaceable with complete transparency (e.g., if someone's diskless
desktop unit dies, it can be replaced in 5 minutes with another equally
usable one).

The servers that can be used to provide that centralized data access are
based upon the same very inexpensive components that the PCs themselves
are based on, and running low on server power (you won't run out of
server *capacity* unless you're saving a bundle by using far
fewer/smaller disks than you would have been using in individual
workstations: central capacity planning is just another benefit of the
system) just means plugging in a few more servers.

The only real remaining argument for operating independence beyond that
provided by diskless workstations is for systems, such as laptops, which
are customarily disconnected from the network. And even there it's
questionable whether it makes sense to treat *corporate* (rather than
personal) laptops more as independent entities that receive periodic
central services like backup than as caching devices which can survive
periods of independence but are basically part of the normal structure
(with all data up to the last point of disconnection mirrored centrally).

A lot of NAS vendors haven't quite gotten to where start-ups like Isilon
are yet, but it won't take them long (IBM is sort of there already,
albeit with its focus on very large systems and expensive storage
hardware, HP's mid-range EVA line at least offers the kind of
incremental expandability required, though in a box with hard limits on
eventual size and, again, major up-front costs, and NetApp's integration
of Spinnaker is a step in the same direction). Windows isn't yet
necessarily as amenable to diskless operation as it might be, but that
won't take *all* the much work (a great deal of it merely involves
suitably segregating read-only from updatable data - as more
time-sharing-oriented OSs have always done).

But those aren't *architectural* problems.

- bill
 
Forget it, Terje. You are dealing with a country where someone was
arrested and prosecuted for "stealing Wifi access". Not doing anything
nefarious, just using a wireless access point that was open near where
he happened to be.

There's just something very wrong about your statements. Just because
the access point was open near where he was, doesn't give him any
rights to exploit the bandwidth. After all, somebody else is paying
for it, not this fellow.

Otherwise, to extend your argument to logical extremes, raping a
unconscious woman would not be a crime in your eyes.


--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :)
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code
 
The little lost angel wrote:

[Snip]

Welcome back from wherever the heck you've been hiding !

It has been so long since I've seen you in c.s.i.p.h.c that I was
wondering if you had literally been swept away ...
 
Welcome back from wherever the heck you've been hiding !

It has been so long since I've seen you in c.s.i.p.h.c that I was
wondering if you had literally been swept away ...

Thanks and no the tsunami didn't get me, neither did the bombing... :P
Just that my drive crashed sometime back and never got around to
putting everything back the way it was from my backups.

Subsequently school, work and living with my fiance made it such that
there was little time left at night for doing things like roaming
Usenet, IRC or blogs =X



--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :)
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code
 
[email protected] (The little lost angel) said:
Otherwise, to extend your argument to logical extremes, raping a
unconscious woman would not be a crime in your eyes.

I seem to remember a court case in which a judge was of that opinion.
(Could very well happen if the legislation is not properly phrased)

Casper
 
Thats bulshit. Humanity is one thing. When large asteroid will wipe
out all life on our planet because some greedy suckers did not want
to donate their computing time for solving the problem of finding and
stopping it, where will you be with your very private unused parking lot?
I say, donating unused resources for comunity purposes should be
_mandated_ by law for everybody as long as it does not cost anything. Of
cause increased computing load costs money to maintain, so this cost
has to be compensated to whoever does the maintaining. But wasting
resources (be it computational, intellectual or any other non-consumable
resources) by not using them is a crime against humanity and Life as
such.

Another communist heard from. ...and security isn't an issue for
you?
 
Keith said:
Another communist heard from. ...and security isn't an issue for
you?

Not to mention the power consumption. Evgenij you would rather run CPUs
at full load all of the time to create a massively-distributed
supercomputer that would run some ineffective algorithm to solve a
problem as inconsequential as ateroid impact? All the while burning more
fossil fuels and harming the environment....
 
Not to mention the power consumption. Evgenij you would rather run CPUs
at full load all of the time to create a massively-distributed
supercomputer that would run some ineffective algorithm to solve a
problem as inconsequential as ateroid impact? All the while burning more
fossil fuels and harming the environment....

Oh puhleeze, spare us the flagellant demonstration.
 
Matthew said:
Not to mention the power consumption. Evgenij you would rather run CPUs
at full load all of the time to create a massively-distributed
supercomputer that would run some ineffective algorithm to solve a
problem as inconsequential as ateroid impact? All the while burning more
fossil fuels and harming the environment....

You did not read carefuly. I mentioned compensation for maitanance,
which includes power costs.

Regards,
Evgenij
 
Keith said:
Another communist heard from. ...and security isn't an issue for
you?

Security is one of the technical problems that have to be resolved
(one along many others). But we are not discussing here _how_ to make
it happen, but rather _should we_ make it happen.

Regards,
Evgenij
 
Security is one of the technical problems that have to be resolved
(one along many others). But we are not discussing here _how_ to make
it happen, but rather _should we_ make it happen.

However, you clearly don't believe in property rights. The
communist has spoken.
 
Del said:
for those satellite radio waves that impinge on our brains without our
permission.

For the contents of those streaming music files on the internet...

For driving across those bridges just sitting there...

For parking on that lot outside that business while you go to the movies
or eat somewhere....

And that jewelry that was left on the dresser in that unlocked house...

Sorry, that wifi access point is someone's property that they paid for.
Why should someone else be able to use it without permission? Should I
be able to use my neighbors wireless router just because he didn't
enable encryption?

That gets complex, both legally and morally. Consider that in my
apartment I have a crappy wifi point, hooked to a dial-up connection,
and the tenant in the next apartment has a good one hooked to cable. If
I fire up the laptop in the living room I get my AP, in the bedroom I
get his.

If I were a typical user, would I know? Would I care? Would I be morally
or legally wrong if I accidentally used the neighbor's connection? To
turn your question around, should I be legally required to determine
that I'm not using the wrong AP? There are lots of people who would just
think "I get a better signal in the bedroom, it goes faster" and never
dream they were using another resource.
 
Bill said:
That gets complex, both legally and morally. Consider that in my
apartment I have a crappy wifi point, hooked to a dial-up connection,
and the tenant in the next apartment has a good one hooked to cable. If
I fire up the laptop in the living room I get my AP, in the bedroom I
get his.

If I were a typical user, would I know? Would I care? Would I be morally
or legally wrong if I accidentally used the neighbor's connection? To
turn your question around, should I be legally required to determine
that I'm not using the wrong AP? There are lots of people who would just
think "I get a better signal in the bedroom, it goes faster" and never
dream they were using another resource.
They would still be wrong and they would be stealing the neighbor's
bandwidth. However it seems reasonable to not get very upset since they
didn't realize they were doing it. It actually happened to me at my
daughter's house. Their wireless was encrypted but I didn't know that.
I got a signal on my laptop and went ahead. When she got home she
figured out it must be the neighbor's network when I said "your signal
is really weak".

But knowingly doing it without permission is certainly morally wrong in
my reference frame, although there are a lot of folks around in the
"what's mine is mine, what's yours is negotiable" camp.

What is the moral difference between using some spare bandwidth off
someone's network and installing software from a borrowed cd?

del cecchi
 
Del Cecchi wrote:


That gets complex, both legally and morally. Consider that in my
apartment I have a crappy wifi point, hooked to a dial-up connection,
and the tenant in the next apartment has a good one hooked to cable. If
I fire up the laptop in the living room I get my AP, in the bedroom I
get his.

You should be able to get both. If you're using his, then it's at
least theft of services, even if you aren't hurting him.
If I were a typical user, would I know? Would I care? Would I be morally
or legally wrong if I accidentally used the neighbor's connection? To
turn your question around, should I be legally required to determine
that I'm not using the wrong AP? There are lots of people who would just
think "I get a better signal in the bedroom, it goes faster" and never
dream they were using another resource.
Maybe, but it's still theft. Intent does matter here though.
 
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