photonic x86 CPU design

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George Macdonald said:
You're confusing the issue here... if you think that IDT and Sprint
count
for much. From my POV, SBC and Verizon are by far the overwhelming
owners
for all communications and they now own MCI and AT&T, which both
provide a
big piece of the Internet backbone. The FCC has just gifted them the
right
to own the DSL market, from wires all the way up to ISP - this is
absurd,
even more so given their manifest incompetence. Who would have
thought,
back at the break-up, that a bunch of wooden poles at the side of the
road
could possibly have so much value? Note those are the same companies
which
dragged the U.S. down to the level it's at in high speed
communications --
close to the worst in the developed world -- with their archaic notions
of
charging for "message units" and sloth on the last mile.
I personally never could see the reasoning behind making the local
telephone company sell service to some doof with nothing but a shoeshine
and a handshake cheap so he could sell it to me cheaper than the phone
company would. If someone wants to compete with the local landline, let
them provide their own connections and equipemnt. Nothing stopping
someone from running a fiber to your house and providing you a very fast
digital pipe. Or a piece of coax for that matter. You just want someone
else to pay for it. Preferably a regulated utility so they can grind the
cost up real well and sprinkle just a bit over each banana split.

del cecchi
 
Absolutely!

Ask yourself this question -- there's a feature that's not in Windows or
Linux. It requires a knowledgeably kernel coder to develop the feature.
Which would be easier/cheaper -- getting the feature into Windows or getting
it into Linux?

Linux? :P
 
Blah, blah, blah. This idea isn't new or unknown. However, it is
rarely,
if ever, used, so there's some problem.
It's easy enough to prove that it works - do it.

I know it isn't new, never claim it is. I've mentioned it before, I've
seen it mentioned elsewhere even earlier though I've made adjustments
to the original concept I read of.

The key problem to it being used is

1. Requires unanimous international support to shift from existing
copyright/patent system to a completely new system.

2. Existing stakeholders would NOT support it. Can you imagine RIAA
accepting this kind of global system that effectively eliminates them
from the profiteering? Ditto Microsoft, ditto many large IP company
who will then apply pressure on governments not to accept this, citing
the usual stuff about this will drive thousands of people out of job
and other economic losses etc etc.

In some ways the system is already working for some indie musicians
who are selling their music online directly for downloads. If the
music is good, their supporters continue to support them, they can
produce more good music yet everybody gets to use the content. It's
just harder to convince the rest of the content originators to make a
singular concerted effort to force the intermediaries into it.

Unfortunately, it requires an element of risk on the rest of the world
cooperating so unless the system is enforced internationally,
voluntary participation would be deemed risky.
 
So my incentive is just wait. Either you will lower price, or someone
else (or several someones) will buy it and give it away or resell for a
lower price.

Admittedly so it depends on people acting less selfishly. But there is
also the possibility that there won't be enough money to make the
originator feel it's worthwhile to do this and thus abandon the
project and do something else.

A variation on the system would be to allow requests say for new
feature or solution to XYZ and put up how much you are willing to pay
for it. Others who want the same feature will contribute to the same
pool until somebody takes it up.
 
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:34:03 -0800, "David Schwartz"

Ahh, yep.

What's interesting is that the Linux folks (and any other free software
folk who use the GPL as their licensing scheme) require the very same
copyright framework that they and others who they think are like-minded
frequently speak ill of. It is the only way they can assure that their
software remains "free" for their odd definition of "free".

In other words, free software people need tools like copyright to keep
control over their work so they can make sure that they have access to
source code contributed by other people who would prefer not to share it.
Without copyright, there is no way you could prevent someone from taking
your software, embedding it into a proprietary product, and refusing to
share their changes with you even though you bought the product.

DS
 
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:57:57 -0600 in comp.arch, "Del Cecchi"

[...]
them provide their own connections and equipemnt. Nothing stopping
someone from running a fiber to your house and providing you a very fast
digital pipe. Or a piece of coax for that matter. You just want someone

Nothing? Have you ever heard of "right of way?" I have personal
experience, with electrical power rather than a comm line.

Regards,
-=Dave
 
1. Requires unanimous international support to shift from existing
copyright/patent system to a completely new system.

No, it doesn't require any changes. All it requires is folks willing
to
work that way. Some folks have tried it.
2. Existing stakeholders would NOT support it.

That doesn't matter. Any content creator (group or individiual) can
decide to work that way right now. Said creator doesn't require
permission from anyone.

Said creator is taking a "does this work" risk, but that's no big deal
if it does....
 
David said:
What's interesting is that the Linux folks (and any other free
software
folk who use the GPL as their licensing scheme) require the very same
copyright framework that they and others who they think are like-minded
frequently speak ill of.

"Require" or "use"? The main problem with the concept of PD in a world with
copyright is that anyone can take something PD and put his copyright on it.
Or on changed versions. If there was *no* copyright at all, this would not
be possible, the results would stay unprotected as they were before.
Without copyright, there is no way you could prevent someone from taking
your software, embedding it into a proprietary product,

But there is no proprietary product without copyright. It might be
binary-only, but it's not proprietary.
and refusing to
share their changes with you even though you bought the product.

You probably wouldn't buy it. Without copyright, you are not obliged to buy
something, you can always get a free copy somewhere, anyway. You may
*donnate* something if you feel like it, but with a unfriendly producer,
would you do that?

Look at the development of freeware (binary only, sources secret), and free
software (source available). If there's only competition between these two
classes of software, the free software will easily win, simply for
technical reasons.
 
Dave said:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:57:57 -0600 in comp.arch, "Del Cecchi"

[...]

them provide their own connections and equipemnt. Nothing stopping
someone from running a fiber to your house and providing you a very fast
digital pipe. Or a piece of coax for that matter. You just want someone


Nothing? Have you ever heard of "right of way?" I have personal
experience, with electrical power rather than a comm line.

Regards,
-=Dave
The city, in my case, has the right of way in the street. Proper
application of money takes care of that. Same with the easement that
the power company has for their right of way. The cable tv company
rents access from the power company. The city puts cell phone towers on
the water towers. I repeat, nothing stopping someone. Now maybe you
live somewhere that the economically feasable way of running power was
across someone else's property, but again that is only a matter of
money. And with the new "all your property are belong to us" eminent
domain ruling, the local government can fix your right of way problem.

You could even do like an entrepeneur in northern Minnesota is doing,
with RF links for high speed internet to folk's domiciles.
 
I personally never could see the reasoning behind making the local
telephone company sell service to some doof with nothing but a shoeshine
and a handshake cheap so he could sell it to me cheaper than the phone
company would.

That's not the way it works at all and if you'd looked at details you'd
know that, in many cases, the ILECs are selling their "lines" to CLECs at
higher rates than they charge their end-users... even before you count
"bundling" of their miserable ISP service along with their other err,
"communication" services.
If someone wants to compete with the local landline, let
them provide their own connections and equipemnt. Nothing stopping
someone from running a fiber to your house and providing you a very fast
digital pipe.

But there is: rights of way, wooden pole ownership and a granted monopoly
on that last mile. For metro, you obviously can't have umpteen different
companies ripping up the streets every other week so there absolutely has
to be a way to share infrastructure... which was not supposed to be a gift
in the first place. In fact from one perspective it was a national
resource which had been bought and paid for by the consuming corporations
and public... not by some benevolent Ma' Bell.
You just want someone
else to pay for it. Preferably a regulated utility so they can grind the
cost up real well and sprinkle just a bit over each banana split.

I dunno where you get off telling *me* what *I* "want" with zero knowledge.
Actually I pay considerably more for my ADSL than I would to a ILEC because
I detest the ILEC scams *and* incompetence. A regulated utility could not
be worse than a buncha morons nominated to be the sole ISP, and now
backbone "provider" just because they inherited the poles. Obviously you
never suffered through the ISDN disgrace... and then the DSL boondoggle....
cosseted in your corporate Class A sub-world. If you want to talk about
this further you better get armed with some details... preferably war
stories from the trenches, because I've got plenty.
 
George Macdonald said:
That's not the way it works at all and if you'd looked at details you'd
know that, in many cases, the ILECs are selling their "lines" to CLECs
at
higher rates than they charge their end-users... even before you count
"bundling" of their miserable ISP service along with their other err,
"communication" services.


But there is: rights of way, wooden pole ownership and a granted
monopoly
on that last mile. For metro, you obviously can't have umpteen
different
companies ripping up the streets every other week so there absolutely
has
to be a way to share infrastructure... which was not supposed to be a
gift
in the first place. In fact from one perspective it was a national
resource which had been bought and paid for by the consuming
corporations
and public... not by some benevolent Ma' Bell.


I dunno where you get off telling *me* what *I* "want" with zero
knowledge.
Actually I pay considerably more for my ADSL than I would to a ILEC
because
I detest the ILEC scams *and* incompetence. A regulated utility could
not
be worse than a buncha morons nominated to be the sole ISP, and now
backbone "provider" just because they inherited the poles. Obviously
you
never suffered through the ISDN disgrace... and then the DSL
boondoggle....
cosseted in your corporate Class A sub-world. If you want to talk
about
this further you better get armed with some details... preferably war
stories from the trenches, because I've got plenty.

yeah, sometimes I post from work, and sometime I post from home. And at
home I have a link from my cable company, scum that they are. The local
phone company appears to still be a regulated utility which is required
to provide pretty much "universal service" for a nominal price. So they
are forced to run wires way the hell and gone out to some pig farm in the
middle of Iowa, and get to charge the farmer 20 bucks a month. They had
to get their rates approved by some bureaucrats but it was an ok exchange
for a guaranteed ROI. Then came some folks saying we need competition.
So rather than allowing them to string their own wires, the FCC instead
made the local telco rent them lines at a low price that they could
market to consumers at a price below what the local telco charged
consumers.

This is all talk talk POTS stuff. Now when it comes to DSL and stuff, the
added value kind of things, the local telco was pretty incompetent. At
least QWEST was around here. So most of the folks I know have cable
broadband. The cable company invested and strung an alternative network,
including a lot of fiber, all over town. But you have to use their ISP,
at least around here. So maybe I could get them to sell me some
bandwidth and access to their cable system and sell broadband cheaper
than they charge by getting the fcc to make them sell bandwidth to me at
cost. Nah. never happen. But it did to the phone company.


If the US wants more use of broadband, then hand out broadband stamps.
Subsidise local governments to make it easier to build alternative
sources of connectivity. Wireless is probably the future anyway.

del cecchi
 
Evgenij said:
lot of money), but a lot of other knowledge types such as books,
intellectual property, music remains without a mechanism that allows
itterative finding and realizing appropriate compensation without
punishing the use.

Please do not use the term 'intellectual property' this way. The term is
used for everything from trade secrets to trademarks, which all have
very different applications, longevity, and impact, and thus are not to
be confused.

See a certain company attacking Linux users, who would love to see
copyright-like rules being applied to patent-like material. Only the
patent isn't there, and thus two things doing the same job in different
though similar manner are not a problem. "But it's our intellectual
property!", they would shout.

I.e. you wrote a program that does something. Someone else writes a
different program that does the same thing. The first program is your
'intellectual property' - methods might be patented, the actual code
copyrighted, the name trademarked, the looks of the program copyrighted,
and so on.

All these have very different rules applying. If I write a clone with a
different name and layout, you can still claim rights to your program,
but not to mine (modulo any patents).


Thomas
 
David said:
What's interesting is that the Linux folks (and any other free software
folk who use the GPL as their licensing scheme) require the very same
copyright framework that they and others who they think are like-minded
frequently speak ill of. It is the only way they can assure that their
software remains "free" for their odd definition of "free".

I like copyrights, but not the monopolization of copyrights. An example:
in many countries there is a monopoly for music copyrights. Assigning
your copyright to them is the only way to get paid for your song being
played on the radio, for example.

The result is that then you are severely limited in what you can do with
your work; for example, playing _your_ _own_ _work_ for an audience
requires a hefty payment to them, of which you will presumably sometime
get something back. No way you can arrange a concert with the composer
on the side, personally: he isn't the owner of the copyright any more,
by default.

Never even mind where the collected money ends up.

That's the kind of thing I (and others) hate. Book publishing is a lot
better in that regard: give the author a contract and a cash advance on
the royalties in return for the rights. If the book is out of print for
a certain time, the use of the copyrights fall back to the author. And
no, only the cash advance was deducted from the royalties; not printing,
not promotion, nothing. The only unfair thing: if the book was
remaindered (remaining stock sold at roughly printing cost to a
wholesaler) the author would not get royalties on that. OTOH he would
get teh first right ro buy the remains. No-one ever did; a publisher
doesn't remainder for the heck of it (unless some record companies who
take all copies of a title back after three months to destroy them).


Thomas
 
Evgenij Barsukov said:
The problem with this is - there is already state supported
copy-right protection, which makes existing system economicaly
viable (and is payed for by your taxes). However, remove or scale-back
the state sponsored copy-right protection, and than indeed you could
see undistorted picture how the alternative systems work and compete
with each other.

It is like just with any kinds of subsidies - the goverment
control over copy-right is a subsidy to one specific way of handling
content creators compensation, which happens to be conter-productive
because it punishes the users of knowledge instead of encouraging them.
This subsidy makes this method apear economicaly viable compared to
others. Remove this subsidy, and it might turn out that other ways of
handling are more efficient.

Here, Evgenij makes a valid point.

Traditionally, up until the 1990s, copyright and patents were not
really procatively enforced by the government. The government did not
seek to prevent copyright and patent violation. The copyright and
patent holder had to seek out such violations, and sue, or obtain an
injunction. The most active role that the government played was
putting a product that violated a patent on a proscribed list that
forbid import into the United States.

(OK... maybe the police involvement in stamping out (pun) the illegal
vinyl record copying rackets was proactive. But such proactivity was
rare.)

One thing that I do not like nowadays is that Microsoft et al are
trying to set things up so that OUR tax dollars are spent enforcing
THEIR copyrights and patents. Worse, distorting US foreign
policy. Worse still, enforcing their IP by making consumer electronics
devices more costly and less functional. (I am waiting for the day
that my video camera refuses to run because there is a digitally
watermarked video playing on a monitor, or a song playing in the
background.)

Libertarians might say that enforcing property rights is the role of
government - in their opinion, the only role of government.

I say that all property rights are subject to economics. We might try
to establish property rights in the molecules of gas exhaled from our
lungs, or, perhaps emitted by an ionizing air cleaner. However, it is
infeasible, and certainly uneconomic, to do so. We choose to enforce
property rights only where it is economic to enforce them.

By increasing the government subsidies for enforcement of intellectual
property rights, we are allowing property rights to expand into areas
that they would not expand to under the old regime, where the IP
holder paid most of the expense.

Compare to an example in real property: the government (the police)
might subsidize (enforce) your right to prevent your neighbor dumping
garbage into your lot - IF they can clearly see where the property
line is, and IF they catch the neighbor in the act. But the police
aren't going to spend time and manpower staking out your lot just to
catch your neighbor in the act. You have to do that yourself. Hire a
private investigator, or install a video camera.

Similarly, if your neighbor's fence intruded into your yard, the
government will not directly enforce your property rights. You will
have to pay for a survey, and take it to court. The courts will give
you the right to request the neighbor move the fence, or to forcibly
remove it if he refuses. The police *might* monitor you removing the
disputed fence, to prevent the possibility of a breach of the peace.
They might prevent the neighbour from assaulting you. But the police
won't remove it for you.


In general, the government enforces criminal law directly. For civil
matters you are given the right to obtain remedies, and the government
may protect your right.

Seeking to have the government enforce intellectual property rights,
both directly, and indirectly by techniques such as copy-protection
chips, has created an unprecedented change in the balance between
civil and criminal law.
 
Here, Evgenij makes a valid point.

Traditionally, up until the 1990s, copyright and patents were not
really procatively enforced by the government. The government did not
seek to prevent copyright and patent violation. The copyright and
patent holder had to seek out such violations, and sue, or obtain an
injunction. The most active role that the government played was
putting a product that violated a patent on a proscribed list that
forbid import into the United States.

(OK... maybe the police involvement in stamping out (pun) the illegal
vinyl record copying rackets was proactive. But such proactivity was
rare.)

You forget the counterfeit Rolex watches and designer clothes. Perhaps
some will remember the confiscated watches being steam-rollered on 5th
Ave. in front of Tiffany's.
One thing that I do not like nowadays is that Microsoft et al are trying
to set things up so that OUR tax dollars are spent enforcing THEIR
copyrights and patents. Worse, distorting US foreign policy. Worse
still, enforcing their IP by making consumer electronics devices more
costly and less functional. (I am waiting for the day that my video
camera refuses to run because there is a digitally watermarked video
playing on a monitor, or a song playing in the background.)

Vote with your wallet. I won't buy such toys for fear of such nonsense.
You really don't *need* a video camera, you know. Twenty years ago the
message was delivered to the software community; NO MORE COPY PROTECTION.
They've apparently found a new generation of sheeple.
Libertarians might say that enforcing property rights is the role of
government - in their opinion, the only role of government.

You speak loudly, for others.
I say that all property rights are subject to economics. We might try
to establish property rights in the molecules of gas exhaled from our
lungs, or, perhaps emitted by an ionizing air cleaner.

If you had somethingto do with the invention of the molecules, maybe.
However, it is infeasible, and certainly uneconomic, to do so. We
choose to enforce property rights only where it is economic to enforce
them.

Well said:
By increasing the government subsidies for enforcement of intellectual
property rights, we are allowing property rights to expand into areas
that they would not expand to under the old regime, where the IP holder
paid most of the expense.

Do tell...
Compare to an example in real property: the government (the police)
might subsidize (enforce) your right to prevent your neighbor dumping
garbage into your lot - IF they can clearly see where the property line
is, and IF they catch the neighbor in the act. But the police aren't
going to spend time and manpower staking out your lot just to catch your
neighbor in the act. You have to do that yourself. Hire a private
investigator, or install a video camera.

Not necessarily. If it goes on long enough and is important enough (toxic
waste) they will assist. The primary protection is yours though, just as
it is with IP.
Similarly, if your neighbor's fence intruded into your yard, the
government will not directly enforce your property rights. You will have
to pay for a survey, and take it to court. The courts will give you the
right to request the neighbor move the fence, or to forcibly remove it
if he refuses. The police *might* monitor you removing the disputed
fence, to prevent the possibility of a breach of the peace. They might
prevent the neighbour from assaulting you. But the police won't remove
it for you.

....and why should they? You don't think the police would be interested if
there was someone in the "recorder of deeds" office altering official
documents?
In general, the government enforces criminal law directly. For civil
matters you are given the right to obtain remedies, and the government
may protect your right.

Copyright infringement is both a civil and criminal offense. That's what
your diatribe misses. If you gleep a copy of my latest Brittney CD, the
cops aren't going to break down your door. If you go into business
printing them...
Seeking to have the government enforce intellectual property rights,
both directly, and indirectly by techniques such as copy-protection
chips, has created an unprecedented change in the balance between civil
and criminal law.

Nonsense. You have the option to say *NO* to anythign with copy
protection.
 
Keith said:
You forget the counterfeit Rolex watches and designer clothes. Perhaps
some will remember the confiscated watches being steam-rollered on 5th
Ave. in front of Tiffany's.




Vote with your wallet. I won't buy such toys for fear of such nonsense.
You really don't *need* a video camera, you know. Twenty years ago the
message was delivered to the software community; NO MORE COPY PROTECTION.
They've apparently found a new generation of sheeple.




You speak loudly, for others.




If you had somethingto do with the invention of the molecules, maybe.




Do tell...




Not necessarily. If it goes on long enough and is important enough (toxic
waste) they will assist. The primary protection is yours though, just as
it is with IP.




...and why should they? You don't think the police would be interested if
there was someone in the "recorder of deeds" office altering official
documents?




Copyright infringement is both a civil and criminal offense. That's what
your diatribe misses. If you gleep a copy of my latest Brittney CD, the
cops aren't going to break down your door. If you go into business
printing them...




Nonsense. You have the option to say *NO* to anythign with copy
protection.
Gentleman, DVD vidiorecorders already refuse to record tv programs
with certain codes added to them. So what can you do about that?
You are not out trying to make an illegal copy , you just want to
see a program next day. Well maybe you can..........
But the salesman does not warn clients about that. And I do not
like to be treated as a criminal by my own vidio recorder.
 
Gentleman, DVD vidiorecorders already refuse to record tv programs
with certain codes added to them. So what can you do about that?

Don't buy them if it offends your sensibilities.
You are not out trying to make an illegal copy , you just want to
see a program next day. Well maybe you can..........
But the salesman does not warn clients about that.

A used car salesman doesn't tell you that used cars may need a new
transmission either.
And I do not like to be treated as a criminal by my own vidio recorder.

I don't either, but there are those who have stolen enough property to
force others to put locks on their doors. That is a fact of life.
 
Andy said:
Property rights also need to apply to produceables - to things that
require effort to produce. Even if, once produced, they are not
consumed; even if usage costs nothing thereafter, the initial
production costs.

Otherwise there is no incentive to produce - to make the investments
necessary to produce. (Or at least reduced incentive.)

For an interesting analysis of why this is NOT the case for products
that are not "consumable", at least in some cases, read _The Success of
Open Source_ by Steven Weber, Professor of Political Science at UC Berkeley,
published by Harvard University Press.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674012925/102-0118756-7424921?v=glance&n=283155
 
Seeking to have the government enforce intellectual property rights,
But you may not have the right to say YES to a device that does not
enforce copy protection. In the very near future, such devices will
be illegal in the US.
 
Dave said:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:57:57 -0600 in comp.arch, "Del Cecchi"

[...]

them provide their own connections and equipemnt. Nothing stopping
someone from running a fiber to your house and providing you a very fast
digital pipe. Or a piece of coax for that matter. You just want someone


Nothing? Have you ever heard of "right of way?" I have personal
experience, with electrical power rather than a comm line.

And of course that allows the telco to refuse to let the cable companies
run cable on those poles... well, fact gets in the way, for some reason
the telcos do exactly that in most places. Electric power is another
issue, and you generally don't run it on the telephone poles, although I
live where that does occur. But if you're talking high voltage, NiMo
certainly had no problems taking a line over our land and leaving 30
acres landlocked and useless.
 
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