Y
Yabbadoo
"Shoetcase" - it's another, fairly recent, ill-educated Southern thing.
STUPID is now universally said as SHTUPID, and in fact applies to most words
beginning "ST (vowel)"
A similar (Southern) anomoly is that, almost without exception, most words
ending in "T" are now spoken with the final "t" missing.
I'm just a few years younger than you, NO advanced education after grammar
school, just a graduate of the university of life. I speak with a Northern
accent, modified by 40+ years living in/close to London. Despite that, I
occasionally use my 40-year-old French when on the Continent, was amazed to
be told that I spoke French in a pure French accent (pity my vocabulary is
so limited).
However, I had darn good English teachers (one English, the other Scottish,
both Oxford MA's) and a life-long passion for reading.
PS wouldn't dream of setting myself up as a custodian of the English
language, nor criticise incorrect grammar or usage in a "put-down" way. I
leave that to the bug, but I am pleased that her adversarial contributions
have ceased since she has been adequately and comprehensively squashed on
the point she set herself up as the final arbiter. "Fora" indeed!!
Sincerely, Len
STUPID is now universally said as SHTUPID, and in fact applies to most words
beginning "ST (vowel)"
A similar (Southern) anomoly is that, almost without exception, most words
ending in "T" are now spoken with the final "t" missing.
I'm just a few years younger than you, NO advanced education after grammar
school, just a graduate of the university of life. I speak with a Northern
accent, modified by 40+ years living in/close to London. Despite that, I
occasionally use my 40-year-old French when on the Continent, was amazed to
be told that I spoke French in a pure French accent (pity my vocabulary is
so limited).
However, I had darn good English teachers (one English, the other Scottish,
both Oxford MA's) and a life-long passion for reading.
PS wouldn't dream of setting myself up as a custodian of the English
language, nor criticise incorrect grammar or usage in a "put-down" way. I
leave that to the bug, but I am pleased that her adversarial contributions
have ceased since she has been adequately and comprehensively squashed on
the point she set herself up as the final arbiter. "Fora" indeed!!
Sincerely, Len
johnf said:Yep, I agree with all that, my reference to 'The Bill' was not to do with
rhyming slang - which I normally have no problem with, more so to do with
the speed at which they speak (or mumble) the odd dialect.
At 70 yrs.+, My brain probably doesn't absorb as fast any more
Funnily, my wife was Dutch & I lived & worked there for 10 years, but
never had any reason to contemplate which 'brand' of English was taught at
school (incidently, English was completely banned during WW2 by the
Germans, naturally, which put all Dutch falling into that age/schooling
group at a disadavantage).
The only clue I've been able to pick up was that my son once correcting
the English teacher who pronounced 'suitcase' as "shoetcase" - (that's the
closest I can get to the teacher's pronunciation).
--
johnf
John - understanding The Bill (allegedly, Cockney English?) The BBC did
a course in Cockney rhyming slang, for "Eastenders", for the Americans.
The trick is knowing phrase origins, since "rhyming" is often a
misnomer in actual Cockney-speak.
Examples - "going up the apples", originates from "apples and pears" =
stairs (so translates to "going upstairs") "Me farmers are playing me
up" - "farmers" = Farmer Giles, = piles (haemorrhoids, US hemorrhoids)
so "my piles are painful" altho I prefer the idiomatic "playing me up",
it's more emotive. (yeah, have probs!)
A real quirk, constantly used - ".....pain in the 'arris".
'Arris = "Aristotle", rhyme for "bottle", shortened from "bottle and
glass", so actual meaning, "pain in the arse" (US, ass). There's an
English "North/South divide" with pronunciation.
Spoken in the South, "glass" is pronounced "glarse". "butter" as
"batter" ...I'm a Northerner living in the South. I take a bath, not a
"barth". (hard a, as in "cat").
Just be glad that you're not watching TV detective "Taggart". It's
based in Glasgow, primarily Glaswegian actors. Trying to cope with the
very thick accent AND Scots dialect words... it's another language.
And, for utterly complete incomprehensibility - Geordie (Newcastle
dialect)? GBH on the eardrums!
Learning English, real problem is not vocabulary, but the spoken form.
Germans and the French have great difficulty with "W" words (Germans
make "we", "vee", the French, "zee") because the "We" vocal sound
doesn't exist in their language. How much more difficult for non-Aryan
races? Same problem in reverse for Brits learning other languages.
All Scandinavia, Belgium and Holland are mainly multi-lingual. English
as a second language is often taught from primary school. Belgium and
Holland are routinely tri-lingual, which makes practical sense when you
look at their geography. One Belgian co-worker I know was fluent in 6
languages.
Purest spoken English I ever heard was from groups of people (not one
individual) from Sweden and Holland - flawless, fluent, not a trace of
accent. The "Queen's English" (used to be BBC English) - defined as
"English as spoken by the educated Southern gentleman".
Regards, Len.
johnf said:What can I say? I wonder how the Japanese learn their English, with
which most non-rural people are now very fluent - probably as a
compulsory school course - but to what or who's standard??
Find that out & you'll probably have an answer,
Geez, I live in OZ, can converse or write in slanguage or correct
English, American, Canadian etc., understand 100% in any of those,
but sometimes get lost trying to follow some of the dialogues on TV in
"The Bill"
--
johnf
Hi John,
I wish I still had the AVI files that I had to transcribe. It was a
public broadcast program within England about usage of computers being
introduced into schools throughout London. Several of the interviews
were with teachers, parents and lots of students, especially those in
kindengarden and middleschool. This was about 4 to 4 and half years
ago. They showed it on Japanese TV, but needed all the interviews and
stuff transcribed so the translaters could put up the subtitles or do
the dubbing.
Jeff
Sorry to butt in, but please post a few examples for fun & let's see
if we can sort this discrepancy out a bit.
--
johnf
Hi David,
Interesting insights you provided with your information. I used to
have a hard copy dictionary around, but it was too big to keep
lugging around, especially when moving to another country. I now
use web based dictionaries and noticed how each reacts to word
searches. I don`t know if the online site I`m using is British
English or American English. I know us Americans can easily
slaughter a written language, but I think the Brits in London are
slaughtering the spoken language.
I did some transcribing work for a little while, had to transcribe
some video images of interviews in London, and I being a native
English speaker (used to different accents of English as well,
British, Scottish, Indian, European, etc) couldn`t beleive what was
being said out of the peoples mouths. I know we Americans sometimes
have some strong accents when speaking, but I couldn`t beleive what
was being spoken from these Brits was English. Anyway, sorry to
waste more of your time, just wanted to thank you for the insight.
Jeff
"David Candy" <.> wrote in message
PS That MS UK dictionary which is what Australians get.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
"David Candy" <.> wrote in message
This is a MS newsgroup. Who gives a F what webster, oxford, or
Macquarrie thinks.
This is what MS says
forum
forum fo$B!V(Brem or f$BO$(B,
noun originally a market-place, especially that in Rome where public
business was transacted and justice dispensed; the courts of law as
opposed to Parliament (rare); a meeting to discuss topics of public
concern; a publication, regular meeting, etc serving as a medium for
debate: fo'rums or fo'ra plural.
[Latin forum, related to foras out of doors]
(c) Larousse plc. All rights reserved
MS uses The Chambers Dictionary is the product of a long line of
dictionary-making. With the publication of each succeeding edition,
the dictionary$BCT(B editors have kept abreast of the contemporary
changes
in the language and the requirements of its users. For the current
edition, careful attention has been taken to ensure that the
language and requirements of the 1990s are well served.
The Hertigage Illustrated Dictionary of the English Language:
International Edition (Americian Hertigage Publishing Company:1975)
says pretty much the same as MS. They note where usuage is not
common to ALL english and americian speaking countries. They make
no mention of any country specific notes. So both are correct in
all countries. EG for Petrol that say Chiefly British - means
gasoline (whatever that is - I suppose it must be petrol - dunno
the dictionary doesn't say gasoline is petrol, it says it's GAS +
OL + INE) --
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
Will, do you actually HAVE a Webster's, or is your knowledge, like
mine, general knowledge? (I know a bit about Webster 'cos I was
reading about his
work a while ago. I enjoy words, and tracing their origins). If so,
please look up "Forum" - I'd like to know HIS spelling/definition
of the plural (i.e whether he has both forms) - it's bugging me!
As you know I'm a Brit, but worked for US multinationals for best
part of 35
years. It plays havoc, occasionally, with my spelling. It's only in
very recent times that a few US and English spellings have become
acceptably interchangeable in written English (but missing "u"'
words are still a no-no - "benefitted", in particular, springs to
mind.) Just noticed is 03.45 - time for bed! .
Thanks, Len
Curious - as you say. As a norm Webster seems to have omitted a
few letters along the way - including a lot of 'u's!!
--
Will Denny
MS-MVP Windows Shell/User
Please reply to the News Groups
Before you leap on it, there's another typo in my post 4 Feb
(thread "re CalcPlus") - missed the "r" in "comfortable". Need to
service my keyboard, keys getting sticky, also late at night -
again..
Plus - you might note that, in the post I was replying to, BAR
used the word "benefited".
That's the English spelling. American spelling is "benefitted".
Aren't dictionaries wonderful sources of information? (well,
English ones, anyway). Unlikely that Webster would give a
non-American alternative, given his documented/published
objective in compiling it was
to "simplify" English for an exclusively American readership##.
Curiously, many of his "simplifications" removed (what he deemed
to be) superfluous letters - in "benefitted" he added one!
##( I don't possess a Webster's, this is conjecture on my part).
Apols for typo. Len.
