Perspicacia

  • Thread starter Thread starter Yabbadoo
  • Start date Start date
Y

Yabbadoo

Before you leap on it, there's another typo in my post 4 Feb (thread "re
CalcPlus") - missed the "r" in "comfortable". Need to service my keyboard,
keys getting sticky, also late at night - again..

Plus - you might note that, in the post I was replying to, BAR used the word
"benefited".
That's the English spelling. American spelling is "benefitted".

Aren't dictionaries wonderful sources of information? (well, English ones,
anyway). Unlikely that Webster would give a non-American alternative, given
his documented/published objective in compiling it was to "simplify" English
for an exclusively American readership##. Curiously, many of his
"simplifications" removed (what he deemed to be) superfluous letters - in
"benefitted" he added one!

##( I don't possess a Webster's, this is conjecture on my part).

Apols for typo. Len.
 
Curious - as you say. As a norm Webster seems to have omitted a few letters
along the way - including a lot of 'u's!!

--


Will Denny
MS-MVP Windows Shell/User
Please reply to the News Groups
 
Will, do you actually HAVE a Webster's, or is your knowledge, like mine,
general knowledge? (I know a bit about Webster 'cos I was reading about his
work a while ago. I enjoy words, and tracing their origins). If so, please
look up "Forum" - I'd like to know HIS spelling/definition of the plural
(i.e whether he has both forms) - it's bugging me!

As you know I'm a Brit, but worked for US multinationals for best part of 35
years. It plays havoc, occasionally, with my spelling. It's only in very
recent times that a few US and English spellings have become acceptably
interchangeable in written English (but missing "u"' words are still a
no-no - "benefitted", in particular, springs to mind.)
Just noticed is 03.45 - time for bed! .

Thanks, Len
 
I've got a very old Webster's - updated, no doubt, by now. Plural of Forum
is Fora - like it or not!!

--


Will Denny
MS-MVP Windows Shell/User
Please reply to the News Groups
 
This is a MS newsgroup. Who gives a F what webster, oxford, or Macquarrie thinks.

This is what MS says

forum

forum fo¢rem or fö¢,
noun originally a market-place, especially that in Rome where public business was transacted and justice dispensed; the courts of law as opposed to Parliament (rare); a meeting to discuss topics of public concern; a publication, regular meeting, etc serving as a medium for debate:
fo'rums or fo'ra plural.
[Latin forum, related to foras out of doors]

(c) Larousse plc. All rights reserved


MS uses The Chambers Dictionary is the product of a long line of dictionary-making. With the publication of each succeeding edition, the dictionary’s editors have kept abreast of the contemporary changes in the language and the requirements of its users. For the current edition, careful attention has been taken to ensure that the language and requirements of the 1990s are well served.

The Hertigage Illustrated Dictionary of the English Language: International Edition (Americian Hertigage Publishing Company:1975) says pretty much the same as MS. They note where usuage is not common to ALL english and americian speaking countries. They make no mention of any country specific notes. So both are correct in all countries. EG for Petrol that say Chiefly British - means gasoline (whatever that is - I suppose it must be petrol - dunno the dictionary doesn't say gasoline is petrol, it says it's GAS + OL + INE)
 
PS That MS UK dictionary which is what Australians get.

--
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
"David Candy" <.> wrote in message This is a MS newsgroup. Who gives a F what webster, oxford, or Macquarrie thinks.

This is what MS says

forum

forum fo¢rem or fö¢,
noun originally a market-place, especially that in Rome where public business was transacted and justice dispensed; the courts of law as opposed to Parliament (rare); a meeting to discuss topics of public concern; a publication, regular meeting, etc serving as a medium for debate:
fo'rums or fo'ra plural.
[Latin forum, related to foras out of doors]

(c) Larousse plc. All rights reserved


MS uses The Chambers Dictionary is the product of a long line of dictionary-making. With the publication of each succeeding edition, the dictionary’s editors have kept abreast of the contemporary changes in the language and the requirements of its users. For the current edition, careful attention has been taken to ensure that the language and requirements of the 1990s are well served.

The Hertigage Illustrated Dictionary of the English Language: International Edition (Americian Hertigage Publishing Company:1975) says pretty much the same as MS. They note where usuage is not common to ALL english and americian speaking countries. They make no mention of any country specific notes. So both are correct in all countries. EG for Petrol that say Chiefly British - means gasoline (whatever that is - I suppose it must be petrol - dunno the dictionary doesn't say gasoline is petrol, it says it's GAS + OL + INE)
 
Thanks, Will - just what I thought. Perspicacia (who initiated this
ludicrous argument in the first place) clearly has no got an English
dictionary, just (possibly) an American one, and her "old English tutor" was
equally limited when teaching "English", or her memory is at fault.
Curiosity satisfied, bug laid to rest.

David, thanks also - Larousse agrees with my books of reference.

Sincerely, Len.


"David Candy" <.> wrote in message
This is a MS newsgroup. Who gives a F what webster, oxford, or Macquarrie
thinks.

This is what MS says

forum

forum fo¢rem or fö¢,
noun originally a market-place, especially that in Rome where public
business was transacted and justice dispensed; the courts of law as opposed
to Parliament (rare); a meeting to discuss topics of public concern; a
publication, regular meeting, etc serving as a medium for debate:
fo'rums or fo'ra plural.
[Latin forum, related to foras out of doors]

(c) Larousse plc. All rights reserved


MS uses The Chambers Dictionary is the product of a long line of
dictionary-making. With the publication of each succeeding edition, the
dictionary’s editors have kept abreast of the contemporary changes in the
language and the requirements of its users. For the current edition, careful
attention has been taken to ensure that the language and requirements of the
1990s are well served.

The Hertigage Illustrated Dictionary of the English Language: International
Edition (Americian Hertigage Publishing Company:1975) says pretty much the
same as MS. They note where usuage is not common to ALL english and
americian speaking countries. They make no mention of any country specific
notes. So both are correct in all countries. EG for Petrol that say Chiefly
British - means gasoline (whatever that is - I suppose it must be petrol -
dunno the dictionary doesn't say gasoline is petrol, it says it's GAS + OL +
INE)
 
| I've got a very old Webster's - updated, no doubt, by now. Plural of
Forum
| is Fora - like it or not!!

"Forums" is correct, and "Fora," while technically OK, is hopelessly
pedantic. There's no point in using the Latin plural forms of words like
"forum" and "stadium" and "aquarium." When was the last time you heard
someone refer to a single piece of information as a "datum" which is the
singular form of "data"? Even scientific and other technical writers who
insist on using "data" with a plural verb never use the singular form.
 
Thanks to Miss P for initiating this wonderful series of posts. In the end:
one has a right to and may use the spelling of the English language in
whatever manner they wish.

It is however, important to maintain correct usage and spelling, according
to the authoritive texts of their homeland.

In the UK one should defer to Oxford. In Australia to Macquarie [if one
must sway from OXford]. In America ...well is there any authority on the
language? It appears not as Microsoft prefers Chambers ahead of Webster!



Yabbadoo said:
Thanks, Will - just what I thought. Perspicacia (who initiated this
ludicrous argument in the first place) clearly has no got an English
dictionary, just (possibly) an American one, and her "old English tutor" was
equally limited when teaching "English", or her memory is at fault.
Curiosity satisfied, bug laid to rest.

David, thanks also - Larousse agrees with my books of reference.

Sincerely, Len.


"David Candy" <.> wrote in message
This is a MS newsgroup. Who gives a F what webster, oxford, or Macquarrie
thinks.

This is what MS says

forum

forum fo¢rem or fö¢,
noun originally a market-place, especially that in Rome where public
business was transacted and justice dispensed; the courts of law as opposed
to Parliament (rare); a meeting to discuss topics of public concern; a
publication, regular meeting, etc serving as a medium for debate:
fo'rums or fo'ra plural.
[Latin forum, related to foras out of doors]

(c) Larousse plc. All rights reserved


MS uses The Chambers Dictionary is the product of a long line of
dictionary-making. With the publication of each succeeding edition, the
dictionary’s editors have kept abreast of the contemporary changes in the
language and the requirements of its users. For the current edition, careful
attention has been taken to ensure that the language and requirements of the
1990s are well served.

The Hertigage Illustrated Dictionary of the English Language: International
Edition (Americian Hertigage Publishing Company:1975) says pretty much the
same as MS. They note where usuage is not common to ALL english and
americian speaking countries. They make no mention of any country specific
notes. So both are correct in all countries. EG for Petrol that say Chiefly
British - means gasoline (whatever that is - I suppose it must be petrol -
dunno the dictionary doesn't say gasoline is petrol, it says it's GAS + OL +
INE)
--
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
Yabbadoo said:
Will, do you actually HAVE a Webster's, or is your knowledge, like mine,
general knowledge? (I know a bit about Webster 'cos I was reading about
his
work a while ago. I enjoy words, and tracing their origins). If so, please
look up "Forum" - I'd like to know HIS spelling/definition of the plural
(i.e whether he has both forms) - it's bugging me!

As you know I'm a Brit, but worked for US multinationals for best part of
35
years. It plays havoc, occasionally, with my spelling. It's only in very
recent times that a few US and English spellings have become acceptably
interchangeable in written English (but missing "u"' words are still a
no-no - "benefitted", in particular, springs to mind.)
Just noticed is 03.45 - time for bed! .

Thanks, Len
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
In my humble opinion, I think most have missed the point (including Miss P
in her earlier 'corrective' post).
Language is a means of communication between people; if one understands what
the other said, that's all that's required - understanding..
If you had to stick continually to correct spelling from various
dictionaries, we would still be speaking & typing in 'ye olde english' from
centuries ago.

NGs for example have developed thir own slanguage, "yuo" instead of "you"
for speed and ease of typing.
Who cares, as long as you understand the question.

Language has continually gradually changed since it first started to
develop - that's how languages develop (unless you are sitting for a school
essay exam or similar and get marked down for incorrect spelling, that's
when the dictionaries start to come out.

On the other hand, you have English English & American English - but that's
another story.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It also can reach the point of ridiculousness, (but still be completely
understandable) as in this old chestnut example -

EuroEnglish (The language of the new millenium)



The European Commissioners have announced that an agreement has been reached
to adopt English as the preferred language for European communications,
rather than German, which was the other possibility.



As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that English
spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five-year phased
plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish (Euro for short).



In the first year, "s" will be used instead of the soft "c".

Sertainley, sivil servants will resieve this news with joy.

Also, the hard "c" will be replaced with "k". Not only will this klear up
konfusion, but typewriters and komputers kan have one less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the
troublesome "ph" will be replaced by "f". This will make words like
"fotograf" 20 percent shorter.

In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to
reach the stage

where more komplikated changes are possible.

Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, which have always
ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes
of silent "e"s in the languag is disgrasful, and they would go.

By the fourth year, peopl wil be replasing "th" by "z" and "w" by "v".
During ze fifz year,

ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou", and similar
changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.

After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor
trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer.



Ze drem vil finali kum tru.

--

johnf
Thanks to Miss P for initiating this wonderful series of posts. In the
end: one has a right to and may use the spelling of the English
language in whatever manner they wish.

It is however, important to maintain correct usage and spelling,
according to the authoritive texts of their homeland.

In the UK one should defer to Oxford. In Australia to Macquarie [if one
must sway from OXford]. In America ...well is there any authority on
the language? It appears not as Microsoft prefers Chambers ahead of
Webster!



Yabbadoo said:
Thanks, Will - just what I thought. Perspicacia (who initiated this
ludicrous argument in the first place) clearly has no got an English
dictionary, just (possibly) an American one, and her "old English
tutor" was equally limited when teaching "English", or her memory is
at fault. Curiosity satisfied, bug laid to rest.

David, thanks also - Larousse agrees with my books of reference.

Sincerely, Len.


"David Candy" <.> wrote in message
This is a MS newsgroup. Who gives a F what webster, oxford, or
Macquarrie thinks.

This is what MS says

forum

forum fo¢rem or fö¢,
noun originally a market-place, especially that in Rome where public
business was transacted and justice dispensed; the courts of law as
opposed to Parliament (rare); a meeting to discuss topics of public
concern; a publication, regular meeting, etc serving as a medium for
debate:
fo'rums or fo'ra plural.
[Latin forum, related to foras out of doors]

(c) Larousse plc. All rights reserved


MS uses The Chambers Dictionary is the product of a long line of
dictionary-making. With the publication of each succeeding edition, the
dictionary's editors have kept abreast of the contemporary changes in
the language and the requirements of its users. For the current
edition, careful attention has been taken to ensure that the language
and requirements of the 1990s are well served.

The Hertigage Illustrated Dictionary of the English Language:
International Edition (Americian Hertigage Publishing Company:1975)
says pretty much the same as MS. They note where usuage is not common
to ALL english and americian speaking countries. They make no mention
of any country specific notes. So both are correct in all countries.
EG for Petrol that say Chiefly British - means gasoline (whatever that
is - I suppose it must be petrol - dunno the dictionary doesn't say
gasoline is petrol, it says it's GAS + OL + INE)
--
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
Yabbadoo said:
Will, do you actually HAVE a Webster's, or is your knowledge, like
mine, general knowledge? (I know a bit about Webster 'cos I was
reading about his
work a while ago. I enjoy words, and tracing their origins). If so,
please look up "Forum" - I'd like to know HIS spelling/definition of
the plural (i.e whether he has both forms) - it's bugging me!

As you know I'm a Brit, but worked for US multinationals for best
part of 35
years. It plays havoc, occasionally, with my spelling. It's only in
very recent times that a few US and English spellings have become
acceptably interchangeable in written English (but missing "u"'
words are still a no-no - "benefitted", in particular, springs to
mind.)
Just noticed is 03.45 - time for bed! .

Thanks, Len

Curious - as you say. As a norm Webster seems to have omitted a few
letters along the way - including a lot of 'u's!!

--


Will Denny
MS-MVP Windows Shell/User
Please reply to the News Groups


Before you leap on it, there's another typo in my post 4 Feb
(thread "re CalcPlus") - missed the "r" in "comfortable". Need to
service my keyboard, keys getting sticky, also late at night -
again..

Plus - you might note that, in the post I was replying to, BAR
used the word "benefited".
That's the English spelling. American spelling is "benefitted".

Aren't dictionaries wonderful sources of information? (well,
English ones, anyway). Unlikely that Webster would give a
non-American alternative, given his documented/published objective
in compiling it was
to "simplify" English for an exclusively American readership##.
Curiously, many of his "simplifications" removed (what he deemed
to be) superfluous letters - in "benefitted" he added one!

##( I don't possess a Webster's, this is conjecture on my part).

Apols for typo. Len.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Hi David,

Interesting insights you provided with your information. I used to have a
hard copy dictionary around, but it was too big to keep lugging around,
especially when moving to another country. I now use web based dictionaries
and noticed how each reacts to word searches. I don`t know if the online
site I`m using is British English or American English. I know us Americans
can easily slaughter a written language, but I think the Brits in London are
slaughtering the spoken language.

I did some transcribing work for a little while, had to transcribe some
video images of interviews in London, and I being a native English speaker
(used to different accents of English as well, British, Scottish, Indian,
European, etc) couldn`t beleive what was being said out of the peoples
mouths. I know we Americans sometimes have some strong accents when
speaking, but I couldn`t beleive what was being spoken from these Brits was
English. Anyway, sorry to waste more of your time, just wanted to thank you
for the insight.

Jeff

"David Candy" <.> wrote in message
PS That MS UK dictionary which is what Australians get.

--
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
"David Candy" <.> wrote in message
This is a MS newsgroup. Who gives a F what webster, oxford, or Macquarrie
thinks.

This is what MS says

forum

forum fo¢rem or fö¢,
noun originally a market-place, especially that in Rome where public
business was transacted and justice dispensed; the courts of law as opposed
to Parliament (rare); a meeting to discuss topics of public concern; a
publication, regular meeting, etc serving as a medium for debate:
fo'rums or fo'ra plural.
[Latin forum, related to foras out of doors]

(c) Larousse plc. All rights reserved


MS uses The Chambers Dictionary is the product of a long line of
dictionary-making. With the publication of each succeeding edition, the
dictionary’s editors have kept abreast of the contemporary changes in the
language and the requirements of its users. For the current edition, careful
attention has been taken to ensure that the language and requirements of the
1990s are well served.

The Hertigage Illustrated Dictionary of the English Language: International
Edition (Americian Hertigage Publishing Company:1975) says pretty much the
same as MS. They note where usuage is not common to ALL english and
americian speaking countries. They make no mention of any country specific
notes. So both are correct in all countries. EG for Petrol that say Chiefly
British - means gasoline (whatever that is - I suppose it must be petrol -
dunno the dictionary doesn't say gasoline is petrol, it says it's GAS + OL +
INE)
 
Sorry to butt in, but please post a few examples for fun & let's see if we
can sort this discrepancy out a bit.


--

johnf
Hi David,

Interesting insights you provided with your information. I used to
have a hard copy dictionary around, but it was too big to keep lugging
around, especially when moving to another country. I now use web based
dictionaries and noticed how each reacts to word searches. I don`t
know if the online site I`m using is British English or American
English. I know us Americans can easily slaughter a written language,
but I think the Brits in London are slaughtering the spoken language.

I did some transcribing work for a little while, had to transcribe some
video images of interviews in London, and I being a native English
speaker (used to different accents of English as well, British,
Scottish, Indian, European, etc) couldn`t beleive what was being said
out of the peoples mouths. I know we Americans sometimes have some
strong accents when speaking, but I couldn`t beleive what was being
spoken from these Brits was English. Anyway, sorry to waste more of
your time, just wanted to thank you for the insight.

Jeff

"David Candy" <.> wrote in message
PS That MS UK dictionary which is what Australians get.

--
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
"David Candy" <.> wrote in message
This is a MS newsgroup. Who gives a F what webster, oxford, or
Macquarrie thinks.

This is what MS says

forum

forum fo¢rem or fö¢,
noun originally a market-place, especially that in Rome where public
business was transacted and justice dispensed; the courts of law as
opposed to Parliament (rare); a meeting to discuss topics of public
concern; a publication, regular meeting, etc serving as a medium for
debate: fo'rums or fo'ra plural.
[Latin forum, related to foras out of doors]

(c) Larousse plc. All rights reserved


MS uses The Chambers Dictionary is the product of a long line of
dictionary-making. With the publication of each succeeding edition, the
dictionary’s editors have kept abreast of the contemporary changes in
the language and the requirements of its users. For the current
edition, careful attention has been taken to ensure that the language
and requirements of the 1990s are well served.

The Hertigage Illustrated Dictionary of the English Language:
International Edition (Americian Hertigage Publishing Company:1975)
says pretty much the same as MS. They note where usuage is not common
to ALL english and americian speaking countries. They make no mention
of any country specific notes. So both are correct in all countries. EG
for Petrol that say Chiefly British - means gasoline (whatever that is
- I suppose it must be petrol - dunno the dictionary doesn't say
gasoline is petrol, it says it's GAS + OL + INE)
--
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
Yabbadoo said:
Will, do you actually HAVE a Webster's, or is your knowledge, like
mine, general knowledge? (I know a bit about Webster 'cos I was
reading about his
work a while ago. I enjoy words, and tracing their origins). If so,
please look up "Forum" - I'd like to know HIS spelling/definition of
the plural (i.e whether he has both forms) - it's bugging me!

As you know I'm a Brit, but worked for US multinationals for best part
of 35
years. It plays havoc, occasionally, with my spelling. It's only in
very recent times that a few US and English spellings have become
acceptably interchangeable in written English (but missing "u"' words
are still a no-no - "benefitted", in particular, springs to mind.)
Just noticed is 03.45 - time for bed! .

Thanks, Len
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Hi John,

I wish I still had the AVI files that I had to transcribe. It was a public
broadcast program within England about usage of computers being introduced
into schools throughout London. Several of the interviews were with
teachers, parents and lots of students, especially those in kindengarden and
middleschool. This was about 4 to 4 and half years ago. They showed it on
Japanese TV, but needed all the interviews and stuff transcribed so the
translaters could put up the subtitles or do the dubbing.

Jeff

johnf said:
Sorry to butt in, but please post a few examples for fun & let's see if we
can sort this discrepancy out a bit.


--

johnf
Hi David,

Interesting insights you provided with your information. I used to
have a hard copy dictionary around, but it was too big to keep lugging
around, especially when moving to another country. I now use web based
dictionaries and noticed how each reacts to word searches. I don`t
know if the online site I`m using is British English or American
English. I know us Americans can easily slaughter a written language,
but I think the Brits in London are slaughtering the spoken language.

I did some transcribing work for a little while, had to transcribe some
video images of interviews in London, and I being a native English
speaker (used to different accents of English as well, British,
Scottish, Indian, European, etc) couldn`t beleive what was being said
out of the peoples mouths. I know we Americans sometimes have some
strong accents when speaking, but I couldn`t beleive what was being
spoken from these Brits was English. Anyway, sorry to waste more of
your time, just wanted to thank you for the insight.

Jeff

"David Candy" <.> wrote in message
PS That MS UK dictionary which is what Australians get.

--
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
"David Candy" <.> wrote in message
This is a MS newsgroup. Who gives a F what webster, oxford, or
Macquarrie thinks.

This is what MS says

forum

forum fo$B!V(Brem or f$BŒ$(B,
noun originally a market-place, especially that in Rome where public
business was transacted and justice dispensed; the courts of law as
opposed to Parliament (rare); a meeting to discuss topics of public
concern; a publication, regular meeting, etc serving as a medium for
debate: fo'rums or fo'ra plural.
[Latin forum, related to foras out of doors]

(c) Larousse plc. All rights reserved


MS uses The Chambers Dictionary is the product of a long line of
dictionary-making. With the publication of each succeeding edition, the
dictionary$BCT(B editors have kept abreast of the contemporary changes in
the language and the requirements of its users. For the current
edition, careful attention has been taken to ensure that the language
and requirements of the 1990s are well served.

The Hertigage Illustrated Dictionary of the English Language:
International Edition (Americian Hertigage Publishing Company:1975)
says pretty much the same as MS. They note where usuage is not common
to ALL english and americian speaking countries. They make no mention
of any country specific notes. So both are correct in all countries. EG
for Petrol that say Chiefly British - means gasoline (whatever that is
- I suppose it must be petrol - dunno the dictionary doesn't say
gasoline is petrol, it says it's GAS + OL + INE)
--
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
Yabbadoo said:
Will, do you actually HAVE a Webster's, or is your knowledge, like
mine, general knowledge? (I know a bit about Webster 'cos I was
reading about his
work a while ago. I enjoy words, and tracing their origins). If so,
please look up "Forum" - I'd like to know HIS spelling/definition of
the plural (i.e whether he has both forms) - it's bugging me!

As you know I'm a Brit, but worked for US multinationals for best part
of 35
years. It plays havoc, occasionally, with my spelling. It's only in
very recent times that a few US and English spellings have become
acceptably interchangeable in written English (but missing "u"' words
are still a no-no - "benefitted", in particular, springs to mind.)
Just noticed is 03.45 - time for bed! .

Thanks, Len

Curious - as you say. As a norm Webster seems to have omitted a few
letters along the way - including a lot of 'u's!!

--


Will Denny
MS-MVP Windows Shell/User
Please reply to the News Groups


Before you leap on it, there's another typo in my post 4 Feb (thread
"re CalcPlus") - missed the "r" in "comfortable". Need to service my
keyboard, keys getting sticky, also late at night - again..

Plus - you might note that, in the post I was replying to, BAR used
the word "benefited".
That's the English spelling. American spelling is "benefitted".

Aren't dictionaries wonderful sources of information? (well, English
ones, anyway). Unlikely that Webster would give a non-American
alternative, given his documented/published objective in compiling it
was
to "simplify" English for an exclusively American readership##.
Curiously, many of his "simplifications" removed (what he deemed to
be) superfluous letters - in "benefitted" he added one!

##( I don't possess a Webster's, this is conjecture on my part).

Apols for typo. Len.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
What can I say? I wonder how the Japanese learn their English, with which
most non-rural people are now very fluent - probably as a compulsory school
course - but to what or who's standard??
Find that out & you'll probably have an answer,
Geez, I live in OZ, can converse or write in slanguage or correct English,
American, Canadian etc., understand 100% in any of those,
but sometimes get lost trying to follow some of the dialogues on TV in "The
Bill" :-)


--

johnf
Hi John,

I wish I still had the AVI files that I had to transcribe. It was a
public broadcast program within England about usage of computers being
introduced into schools throughout London. Several of the interviews
were with teachers, parents and lots of students, especially those in
kindengarden and middleschool. This was about 4 to 4 and half years
ago. They showed it on Japanese TV, but needed all the interviews and
stuff transcribed so the translaters could put up the subtitles or do
the dubbing.
Jeff

johnf said:
Sorry to butt in, but please post a few examples for fun & let's see
if we can sort this discrepancy out a bit.


--

johnf
Hi David,

Interesting insights you provided with your information. I used to
have a hard copy dictionary around, but it was too big to keep lugging
around, especially when moving to another country. I now use web
based dictionaries and noticed how each reacts to word searches. I
don`t know if the online site I`m using is British English or American
English. I know us Americans can easily slaughter a written language,
but I think the Brits in London are slaughtering the spoken language.

I did some transcribing work for a little while, had to transcribe
some video images of interviews in London, and I being a native
English speaker (used to different accents of English as well,
British, Scottish, Indian, European, etc) couldn`t beleive what was
being said out of the peoples mouths. I know we Americans sometimes
have some strong accents when speaking, but I couldn`t beleive what
was being spoken from these Brits was English. Anyway, sorry to
waste more of your time, just wanted to thank you for the insight.

Jeff

"David Candy" <.> wrote in message
PS That MS UK dictionary which is what Australians get.

--
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
"David Candy" <.> wrote in message
This is a MS newsgroup. Who gives a F what webster, oxford, or
Macquarrie thinks.

This is what MS says

forum

forum fo$B!V(Brem or f$BŒ$(B,
noun originally a market-place, especially that in Rome where public
business was transacted and justice dispensed; the courts of law as
opposed to Parliament (rare); a meeting to discuss topics of public
concern; a publication, regular meeting, etc serving as a medium for
debate: fo'rums or fo'ra plural.
[Latin forum, related to foras out of doors]

(c) Larousse plc. All rights reserved


MS uses The Chambers Dictionary is the product of a long line of
dictionary-making. With the publication of each succeeding edition,
the dictionary$BCT(B editors have kept abreast of the contemporary changes
in the language and the requirements of its users. For the current
edition, careful attention has been taken to ensure that the language
and requirements of the 1990s are well served.

The Hertigage Illustrated Dictionary of the English Language:
International Edition (Americian Hertigage Publishing Company:1975)
says pretty much the same as MS. They note where usuage is not common
to ALL english and americian speaking countries. They make no mention
of any country specific notes. So both are correct in all countries.
EG for Petrol that say Chiefly British - means gasoline (whatever
that is - I suppose it must be petrol - dunno the dictionary doesn't
say gasoline is petrol, it says it's GAS + OL + INE)
--
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
Will, do you actually HAVE a Webster's, or is your knowledge, like
mine, general knowledge? (I know a bit about Webster 'cos I was
reading about his
work a while ago. I enjoy words, and tracing their origins). If so,
please look up "Forum" - I'd like to know HIS spelling/definition of
the plural (i.e whether he has both forms) - it's bugging me!

As you know I'm a Brit, but worked for US multinationals for best
part of 35
years. It plays havoc, occasionally, with my spelling. It's only in
very recent times that a few US and English spellings have become
acceptably interchangeable in written English (but missing "u"' words
are still a no-no - "benefitted", in particular, springs to mind.)
Just noticed is 03.45 - time for bed! .

Thanks, Len

Curious - as you say. As a norm Webster seems to have omitted a few
letters along the way - including a lot of 'u's!!

--


Will Denny
MS-MVP Windows Shell/User
Please reply to the News Groups


Before you leap on it, there's another typo in my post 4 Feb
(thread "re CalcPlus") - missed the "r" in "comfortable". Need to
service my keyboard, keys getting sticky, also late at night -
again..
Plus - you might note that, in the post I was replying to, BAR used
the word "benefited".
That's the English spelling. American spelling is "benefitted".

Aren't dictionaries wonderful sources of information? (well,
English ones, anyway). Unlikely that Webster would give a
non-American alternative, given his documented/published objective
in compiling it was
to "simplify" English for an exclusively American readership##.
Curiously, many of his "simplifications" removed (what he deemed to
be) superfluous letters - in "benefitted" he added one!

##( I don't possess a Webster's, this is conjecture on my part).

Apols for typo. Len.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Hi John,

I wish I still had the AVI files that I had to transcribe. It was a public
broadcast program within England about usage of computers being introduced
into schools throughout London. Several of the interviews were with
teachers, parents and lots of students, especially those in kindengarden and
middleschool. This was about 4 to 4 and half years ago. They showed it on
Japanese TV, but needed all the interviews and stuff transcribed so the
translaters could put up the subtitles or do the dubbing.

Jeff

johnf said:
Sorry to butt in, but please post a few examples for fun & let's see if we
can sort this discrepancy out a bit.


--

johnf
Hi David,

Interesting insights you provided with your information. I used to
have a hard copy dictionary around, but it was too big to keep lugging
around, especially when moving to another country. I now use web based
dictionaries and noticed how each reacts to word searches. I don`t
know if the online site I`m using is British English or American
English. I know us Americans can easily slaughter a written language,
but I think the Brits in London are slaughtering the spoken language.

I did some transcribing work for a little while, had to transcribe some
video images of interviews in London, and I being a native English
speaker (used to different accents of English as well, British,
Scottish, Indian, European, etc) couldn`t beleive what was being said
out of the peoples mouths. I know we Americans sometimes have some
strong accents when speaking, but I couldn`t beleive what was being
spoken from these Brits was English. Anyway, sorry to waste more of
your time, just wanted to thank you for the insight.

Jeff

"David Candy" <.> wrote in message
PS That MS UK dictionary which is what Australians get.

--
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
"David Candy" <.> wrote in message
This is a MS newsgroup. Who gives a F what webster, oxford, or
Macquarrie thinks.

This is what MS says

forum

forum fo?rem or f?,
noun originally a market-place, especially that in Rome where public
business was transacted and justice dispensed; the courts of law as
opposed to Parliament (rare); a meeting to discuss topics of public
concern; a publication, regular meeting, etc serving as a medium for
debate: fo'rums or fo'ra plural.
[Latin forum, related to foras out of doors]

(c) Larousse plc. All rights reserved


MS uses The Chambers Dictionary is the product of a long line of
dictionary-making. With the publication of each succeeding edition, the
dictionary? editors have kept abreast of the contemporary changes in
the language and the requirements of its users. For the current
edition, careful attention has been taken to ensure that the language
and requirements of the 1990s are well served.

The Hertigage Illustrated Dictionary of the English Language:
International Edition (Americian Hertigage Publishing Company:1975)
says pretty much the same as MS. They note where usuage is not common
to ALL english and americian speaking countries. They make no mention
of any country specific notes. So both are correct in all countries. EG
for Petrol that say Chiefly British - means gasoline (whatever that is
- I suppose it must be petrol - dunno the dictionary doesn't say
gasoline is petrol, it says it's GAS + OL + INE)
--
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
Will, do you actually HAVE a Webster's, or is your knowledge, like
mine, general knowledge? (I know a bit about Webster 'cos I was
reading about his
work a while ago. I enjoy words, and tracing their origins). If so,
please look up "Forum" - I'd like to know HIS spelling/definition of
the plural (i.e whether he has both forms) - it's bugging me!

As you know I'm a Brit, but worked for US multinationals for best part
of 35
years. It plays havoc, occasionally, with my spelling. It's only in
very recent times that a few US and English spellings have become
acceptably interchangeable in written English (but missing "u"' words
are still a no-no - "benefitted", in particular, springs to mind.)
Just noticed is 03.45 - time for bed! .

Thanks, Len

Curious - as you say. As a norm Webster seems to have omitted a few
letters along the way - including a lot of 'u's!!

--


Will Denny
MS-MVP Windows Shell/User
Please reply to the News Groups


Before you leap on it, there's another typo in my post 4 Feb (thread
"re CalcPlus") - missed the "r" in "comfortable". Need to service my
keyboard, keys getting sticky, also late at night - again..

Plus - you might note that, in the post I was replying to, BAR used
the word "benefited".
That's the English spelling. American spelling is "benefitted".

Aren't dictionaries wonderful sources of information? (well, English
ones, anyway). Unlikely that Webster would give a non-American
alternative, given his documented/published objective in compiling it
was
to "simplify" English for an exclusively American readership##.
Curiously, many of his "simplifications" removed (what he deemed to
be) superfluous letters - in "benefitted" he added one!

##( I don't possess a Webster's, this is conjecture on my part).

Apols for typo. Len.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I think I'm getting the hang of pluralization.
So, AVI is the plural form of Avum?

Neat.
 
What can I say? I wonder how the Japanese learn their English, with which
most non-rural people are now very fluent - probably as a compulsory school
course - but to what or who's standard??
Find that out & you'll probably have an answer,
Geez, I live in OZ, can converse or write in slanguage or correct English,
American, Canadian etc., understand 100% in any of those,
but sometimes get lost trying to follow some of the dialogues on TV in "The
Bill" :-)
Click to expand...


"Who's" ?

Arh, be that not a contraction for "Who is" ?

The possesive shall be spelled "Whose", else beware the boxer of ears.

Or might it be The Boxer of Ears?
I heard that he he lives under a bridge somewhere.
Likely, a troll bridge.
 
I think I'm getting the hang of pluralization.
So, AVI is the plural form of Avum?

Neat.
Click to expand...

and that comment results in cleanup for one monitor and one keyboard.
 
Bugger. I missed that one. Just shows that nobody's perfect. I wont blame it
on slanguage; just a typo.
Luckily we don't have troll bridges here (well, not that I've seen in my 72
years), toll bridges - yes, but that's a different point of current heated
discussion.
 
John - understanding The Bill (allegedly, Cockney English?) The BBC did a
course in Cockney rhyming slang, for "Eastenders", for the Americans. The
trick is knowing phrase origins, since "rhyming" is often a misnomer in
actual Cockney-speak.
Examples - "going up the apples", originates from "apples and pears" =
stairs (so translates to "going upstairs") "Me farmers are playing me up" -
"farmers" = Farmer Giles, = piles (haemorrhoids, US hemorrhoids) so "my
piles are painful" altho I prefer the idiomatic "playing me up", it's more
emotive. (yeah, have probs!)

A real quirk, constantly used - ".....pain in the 'arris".
'Arris = "Aristotle", rhyme for "bottle", shortened from "bottle and glass",
so actual meaning, "pain in the arse" (US, ass). There's an English
"North/South divide" with pronunciation.

Spoken in the South, "glass" is pronounced "glarse". "butter" as "batter"
....I'm a Northerner living in the South. I take a bath, not a "barth".
(hard a, as in "cat").

Just be glad that you're not watching TV detective "Taggart". It's based in
Glasgow, primarily Glaswegian actors. Trying to cope with the very thick
accent AND Scots dialect words... it's another language. And, for utterly
complete incomprehensibility - Geordie (Newcastle dialect)? GBH on the
eardrums!

Learning English, real problem is not vocabulary, but the spoken form.
Germans and the French have great difficulty with "W" words (Germans make
"we", "vee", the French, "zee") because the "We" vocal sound doesn't exist
in their language. How much more difficult for non-Aryan races? Same problem
in reverse for Brits learning other languages.

All Scandinavia, Belgium and Holland are mainly multi-lingual. English as a
second language is often taught from primary school. Belgium and Holland
are routinely tri-lingual, which makes practical sense when you look at
their geography. One Belgian co-worker I know was fluent in 6 languages.

Purest spoken English I ever heard was from groups of people (not one
individual) from Sweden and Holland - flawless, fluent, not a trace of
accent. The "Queen's English" (used to be BBC English) - defined as "English
as spoken by the educated Southern gentleman".

Regards, Len.

johnf said:
What can I say? I wonder how the Japanese learn their English, with which
most non-rural people are now very fluent - probably as a compulsory
school course - but to what or who's standard??
Find that out & you'll probably have an answer,
Geez, I live in OZ, can converse or write in slanguage or correct English,
American, Canadian etc., understand 100% in any of those,
but sometimes get lost trying to follow some of the dialogues on TV in
"The Bill" :-)


--

johnf
Hi John,

I wish I still had the AVI files that I had to transcribe. It was a
public broadcast program within England about usage of computers being
introduced into schools throughout London. Several of the interviews
were with teachers, parents and lots of students, especially those in
kindengarden and middleschool. This was about 4 to 4 and half years
ago. They showed it on Japanese TV, but needed all the interviews and
stuff transcribed so the translaters could put up the subtitles or do
the dubbing.
Jeff

johnf said:
Sorry to butt in, but please post a few examples for fun & let's see
if we can sort this discrepancy out a bit.


--

johnf

Hi David,

Interesting insights you provided with your information. I used to
have a hard copy dictionary around, but it was too big to keep lugging
around, especially when moving to another country. I now use web
based dictionaries and noticed how each reacts to word searches. I
don`t know if the online site I`m using is British English or American
English. I know us Americans can easily slaughter a written language,
but I think the Brits in London are slaughtering the spoken language.

I did some transcribing work for a little while, had to transcribe
some video images of interviews in London, and I being a native
English speaker (used to different accents of English as well,
British, Scottish, Indian, European, etc) couldn`t beleive what was
being said out of the peoples mouths. I know we Americans sometimes
have some strong accents when speaking, but I couldn`t beleive what
was being spoken from these Brits was English. Anyway, sorry to
waste more of your time, just wanted to thank you for the insight.

Jeff

"David Candy" <.> wrote in message
PS That MS UK dictionary which is what Australians get.

--
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
"David Candy" <.> wrote in message
This is a MS newsgroup. Who gives a F what webster, oxford, or
Macquarrie thinks.

This is what MS says

forum

forum fo$B!V(Brem or f$BO$(B,
noun originally a market-place, especially that in Rome where public
business was transacted and justice dispensed; the courts of law as
opposed to Parliament (rare); a meeting to discuss topics of public
concern; a publication, regular meeting, etc serving as a medium for
debate: fo'rums or fo'ra plural.
[Latin forum, related to foras out of doors]

(c) Larousse plc. All rights reserved


MS uses The Chambers Dictionary is the product of a long line of
dictionary-making. With the publication of each succeeding edition,
the dictionary$BCT(B editors have kept abreast of the contemporary
changes
in the language and the requirements of its users. For the current
edition, careful attention has been taken to ensure that the language
and requirements of the 1990s are well served.

The Hertigage Illustrated Dictionary of the English Language:
International Edition (Americian Hertigage Publishing Company:1975)
says pretty much the same as MS. They note where usuage is not common
to ALL english and americian speaking countries. They make no mention
of any country specific notes. So both are correct in all countries.
EG for Petrol that say Chiefly British - means gasoline (whatever
that is - I suppose it must be petrol - dunno the dictionary doesn't
say gasoline is petrol, it says it's GAS + OL + INE)
--
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
Will, do you actually HAVE a Webster's, or is your knowledge, like
mine, general knowledge? (I know a bit about Webster 'cos I was
reading about his
work a while ago. I enjoy words, and tracing their origins). If so,
please look up "Forum" - I'd like to know HIS spelling/definition of
the plural (i.e whether he has both forms) - it's bugging me!

As you know I'm a Brit, but worked for US multinationals for best
part of 35
years. It plays havoc, occasionally, with my spelling. It's only in
very recent times that a few US and English spellings have become
acceptably interchangeable in written English (but missing "u"' words
are still a no-no - "benefitted", in particular, springs to mind.)
Just noticed is 03.45 - time for bed! .

Thanks, Len

Curious - as you say. As a norm Webster seems to have omitted a few
letters along the way - including a lot of 'u's!!

--


Will Denny
MS-MVP Windows Shell/User
Please reply to the News Groups


Before you leap on it, there's another typo in my post 4 Feb
(thread "re CalcPlus") - missed the "r" in "comfortable". Need to
service my keyboard, keys getting sticky, also late at night -
again..
Plus - you might note that, in the post I was replying to, BAR used
the word "benefited".
That's the English spelling. American spelling is "benefitted".

Aren't dictionaries wonderful sources of information? (well,
English ones, anyway). Unlikely that Webster would give a
non-American alternative, given his documented/published objective
in compiling it was
to "simplify" English for an exclusively American readership##.
Curiously, many of his "simplifications" removed (what he deemed to
be) superfluous letters - in "benefitted" he added one!

##( I don't possess a Webster's, this is conjecture on my part).

Apols for typo. Len.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Yep, I agree with all that, my reference to 'The Bill' was not to do with
rhyming slang - which I normally have no problem with, more so to do with
the speed at which they speak (or mumble) the odd dialect.
At 70 yrs.+, My brain probably doesn't absorb as fast any more :-)

Funnily, my wife was Dutch & I lived & worked there for 10 years, but never
had any reason to contemplate which 'brand' of English was taught at school
(incidently, English was completely banned during WW2 by the Germans,
naturally, which put all Dutch falling into that age/schooling group at a
disadavantage).
The only clue I've been able to pick up was that my son once correcting the
English teacher who pronounced 'suitcase' as "shoetcase" - (that's the
closest I can get to the teacher's pronunciation).

--

johnf
John - understanding The Bill (allegedly, Cockney English?) The BBC did
a course in Cockney rhyming slang, for "Eastenders", for the Americans.
The trick is knowing phrase origins, since "rhyming" is often a
misnomer in actual Cockney-speak.
Examples - "going up the apples", originates from "apples and pears" =
stairs (so translates to "going upstairs") "Me farmers are playing me
up" - "farmers" = Farmer Giles, = piles (haemorrhoids, US hemorrhoids)
so "my piles are painful" altho I prefer the idiomatic "playing me up",
it's more emotive. (yeah, have probs!)

A real quirk, constantly used - ".....pain in the 'arris".
'Arris = "Aristotle", rhyme for "bottle", shortened from "bottle and
glass", so actual meaning, "pain in the arse" (US, ass). There's an
English "North/South divide" with pronunciation.

Spoken in the South, "glass" is pronounced "glarse". "butter" as
"batter" ...I'm a Northerner living in the South. I take a bath, not a
"barth". (hard a, as in "cat").

Just be glad that you're not watching TV detective "Taggart". It's
based in Glasgow, primarily Glaswegian actors. Trying to cope with the
very thick accent AND Scots dialect words... it's another language.
And, for utterly complete incomprehensibility - Geordie (Newcastle
dialect)? GBH on the eardrums!

Learning English, real problem is not vocabulary, but the spoken form.
Germans and the French have great difficulty with "W" words (Germans
make "we", "vee", the French, "zee") because the "We" vocal sound
doesn't exist in their language. How much more difficult for non-Aryan
races? Same problem in reverse for Brits learning other languages.

All Scandinavia, Belgium and Holland are mainly multi-lingual. English
as a second language is often taught from primary school. Belgium and
Holland are routinely tri-lingual, which makes practical sense when you
look at their geography. One Belgian co-worker I know was fluent in 6
languages.
Purest spoken English I ever heard was from groups of people (not one
individual) from Sweden and Holland - flawless, fluent, not a trace of
accent. The "Queen's English" (used to be BBC English) - defined as
"English as spoken by the educated Southern gentleman".

Regards, Len.

johnf said:
What can I say? I wonder how the Japanese learn their English, with
which most non-rural people are now very fluent - probably as a
compulsory school course - but to what or who's standard??
Find that out & you'll probably have an answer,
Geez, I live in OZ, can converse or write in slanguage or correct
English, American, Canadian etc., understand 100% in any of those,
but sometimes get lost trying to follow some of the dialogues on TV in
"The Bill" :-)


--

johnf
Hi John,

I wish I still had the AVI files that I had to transcribe. It was a
public broadcast program within England about usage of computers being
introduced into schools throughout London. Several of the interviews
were with teachers, parents and lots of students, especially those in
kindengarden and middleschool. This was about 4 to 4 and half years
ago. They showed it on Japanese TV, but needed all the interviews and
stuff transcribed so the translaters could put up the subtitles or do
the dubbing.
Jeff

Sorry to butt in, but please post a few examples for fun & let's see
if we can sort this discrepancy out a bit.


--

johnf

Hi David,

Interesting insights you provided with your information. I used to
have a hard copy dictionary around, but it was too big to keep
lugging around, especially when moving to another country. I now
use web based dictionaries and noticed how each reacts to word
searches. I don`t know if the online site I`m using is British
English or American English. I know us Americans can easily
slaughter a written language, but I think the Brits in London are
slaughtering the spoken language.
I did some transcribing work for a little while, had to transcribe
some video images of interviews in London, and I being a native
English speaker (used to different accents of English as well,
British, Scottish, Indian, European, etc) couldn`t beleive what was
being said out of the peoples mouths. I know we Americans sometimes
have some strong accents when speaking, but I couldn`t beleive what
was being spoken from these Brits was English. Anyway, sorry to
waste more of your time, just wanted to thank you for the insight.

Jeff

"David Candy" <.> wrote in message
PS That MS UK dictionary which is what Australians get.

--
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
"David Candy" <.> wrote in message
This is a MS newsgroup. Who gives a F what webster, oxford, or
Macquarrie thinks.

This is what MS says

forum

forum fo$B!V(Brem or f$BO$(B,
noun originally a market-place, especially that in Rome where public
business was transacted and justice dispensed; the courts of law as
opposed to Parliament (rare); a meeting to discuss topics of public
concern; a publication, regular meeting, etc serving as a medium for
debate: fo'rums or fo'ra plural.
[Latin forum, related to foras out of doors]

(c) Larousse plc. All rights reserved


MS uses The Chambers Dictionary is the product of a long line of
dictionary-making. With the publication of each succeeding edition,
the dictionary$BCT(B editors have kept abreast of the contemporary
changes
in the language and the requirements of its users. For the current
edition, careful attention has been taken to ensure that the
language and requirements of the 1990s are well served.

The Hertigage Illustrated Dictionary of the English Language:
International Edition (Americian Hertigage Publishing Company:1975)
says pretty much the same as MS. They note where usuage is not
common to ALL english and americian speaking countries. They make
no mention of any country specific notes. So both are correct in
all countries. EG for Petrol that say Chiefly British - means
gasoline (whatever that is - I suppose it must be petrol - dunno
the dictionary doesn't say gasoline is petrol, it says it's GAS +
OL + INE) --
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uscricket.com
Will, do you actually HAVE a Webster's, or is your knowledge, like
mine, general knowledge? (I know a bit about Webster 'cos I was
reading about his
work a while ago. I enjoy words, and tracing their origins). If so,
please look up "Forum" - I'd like to know HIS spelling/definition
of the plural (i.e whether he has both forms) - it's bugging me!

As you know I'm a Brit, but worked for US multinationals for best
part of 35
years. It plays havoc, occasionally, with my spelling. It's only in
very recent times that a few US and English spellings have become
acceptably interchangeable in written English (but missing "u"'
words are still a no-no - "benefitted", in particular, springs to
mind.) Just noticed is 03.45 - time for bed! .

Thanks, Len

Curious - as you say. As a norm Webster seems to have omitted a
few letters along the way - including a lot of 'u's!!

--


Will Denny
MS-MVP Windows Shell/User
Please reply to the News Groups


Before you leap on it, there's another typo in my post 4 Feb
(thread "re CalcPlus") - missed the "r" in "comfortable". Need to
service my keyboard, keys getting sticky, also late at night -
again..
Plus - you might note that, in the post I was replying to, BAR
used the word "benefited".
That's the English spelling. American spelling is "benefitted".

Aren't dictionaries wonderful sources of information? (well,
English ones, anyway). Unlikely that Webster would give a
non-American alternative, given his documented/published
objective in compiling it was
to "simplify" English for an exclusively American readership##.
Curiously, many of his "simplifications" removed (what he deemed
to be) superfluous letters - in "benefitted" he added one!

##( I don't possess a Webster's, this is conjecture on my part).

Apols for typo. Len.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
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