NV gets ass kicked in HL2 benches

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jack
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John said:
Good one
Click to expand...
Are we witnessing the downfall of Nvidia here then? Did you read about
having to rewrite game codes for fx chipsets? If this is the case then are
games makers going to put up with that? Maybe this is the whole reason why
HL2 was delayed? rewriting code so that the bloody fx can play the
game..........If this is the case then game makers should just say piss off,
screw sales :)
This could well see the end of nvidia as we know it.....
 
Steve D said:
The end of Nvidia as we know it....do you really see this as a good thing.
i just made the switch from a TI4200 to a 9800pro but i owe neither Nvidia
or ATi any aligence. Whoever has the best card for the money gets my sale.
But if nvidia goes under, who will push ATi to make better products and
drive down cost. A monoply is a bad thing. i personally hope both
companies stay competitive and pushing eachother for a long time.
Just my 2 cents

Steve
Click to expand...
No, I'm not saying Nvidia will go under, what I said was the end of Nvidia
as we know it, remember they have already suffered a blow from the 5800 and
now this, things just get worse. And meantime, they *could* be the reason we
are going to have delays, they are still the best selling card maker, so
game developers will rewrite the code for better sales, meantime we all have
to sit and wait with delays coming out of our ears.........Email from the ed
of the article has asked the same questions as me but hasn't found the
answer yet.....
 
The end of Nvidia as we know it....do you really see this as a good thing.
i just made the switch from a TI4200 to a 9800pro but i owe neither Nvidia
or ATi any aligence. Whoever has the best card for the money gets my sale.
But if nvidia goes under, who will push ATi to make better products and
drive down cost. A monoply is a bad thing. i personally hope both
companies stay competitive and pushing eachother for a long time.
Just my 2 cents

Steve
 
All nVidia have to do is lower their prices so that the dollar/FPS ratio for
DX9 games becomes less of a joke.

AMD do it, but don't make much money. If nVidia can then get the next
generation out and overcome these problems, they can then carry on competing
with ATi, which should hopefully be beneficial in driving the market.

However, if nVidia goes the way of 3DFx, then we'll be left with an ATi that
has no competitive pressure.

It's all down to cashflow now. 3DFx had great stuff in the pipeline, but ran
out of money.
 
The Robot said:
All nVidia have to do is lower their prices so that the dollar/FPS ratio for
DX9 games becomes less of a joke.

AMD do it, but don't make much money. If nVidia can then get the next
generation out and overcome these problems, they can then carry on competing
with ATi, which should hopefully be beneficial in driving the market.

However, if nVidia goes the way of 3DFx, then we'll be left with an ATi that
has no competitive pressure.

It's all down to cashflow now. 3DFx had great stuff in the pipeline, but ran
out of money.
Click to expand...
I think you are missing the point here mate. If *big IF* Half Life 2 has
been delayed due to the Nvidia crisis then it is a sign of things to come,
Nvidia still being the highest grossing chip maker then game developers will
continue to put up with this and rewrite code for optimisations for Nvidia.
It isn't about the money. This is serious shit. We could have major problems
with game releases due to this and Nvidia won't bring out another card until
they have sold enough of the fx series......Meantime consumers suffer with
perhaps poor performing cards which have been scaled down to cope with
shaders etc and then they have to wait for games that are delayed too......

This is a scandal going on here *possibly*.........
 
too bad I cant go back 4-5 years ago and post some of the wild rumors that circulated when ATI was going down..and nvid would rein
supreme..no competition at any level be it price, FPS, DX compatibility, etc will never help the consumer....and please, I doubt
seriously that any production halted on HL because of any ONE hardware manufacturer. Course if the game opens with nvidia
commercials and it wont play that... well.......that would be a different story/// ;^)
 
methylenedioxy said:
I think you are missing the point here mate. If *big IF* Half Life 2 has
been delayed due to the Nvidia crisis then it is a sign of things to come,
Nvidia still being the highest grossing chip maker then game developers will
continue to put up with this and rewrite code for optimisations for Nvidia.
It isn't about the money. This is serious shit. We could have major problems
with game releases due to this and Nvidia won't bring out another card until
they have sold enough of the fx series......Meantime consumers suffer with
perhaps poor performing cards which have been scaled down to cope with
shaders etc and then they have to wait for games that are delayed too......

This is a scandal going on here *possibly*.........
Click to expand...

I agree with you partly, but to me it looks like those optimisations aren't
actually worth it unless you have a 5900Ultra or above.

Therefore, the developers are more likely to drop the FX optimisations
altogether.

Think about it, even with optimisations, the nVidia mass market (5600/5700)
still won't be able to run DX9 HL2.
Those people will end up turning down their settings to DX8.

If I was a developer, why would I bother to optimise for just the high end
of the nVidia market?
The high end of the market are mostly those who have done their reseach and
are *expecting* good DX9. And those people are now very likely to stop
buying nVidia, or sell any existing kit.

If I had a 5900Ultra right now, it would be on eBay, safe in the knowledge
that I could afford a 9800Pro with the sale proceeds.

At the end of it, anyone who has bought an nVidia card will just be those
users who don't know that they can get much better DX9 from ATi. They'll
play the new games in DX8, and maybe find out that next time they should
insist on ATi.

It's always been the case that the developers bring out the software, and
the consumer has to make the right choice if he/she wants the eye candy. It
has always been the case that you need to do your research first, and those
that do not, will not be complaining, as they will be able to run the game
in DX8 anyway.

The choice that the informed consumer will be forced to make in the future
will be ATi.

Current projects like HL2 have had to do the optimisations to ensure they
get the product out to as wide a consumer base as possible, which includes
the high end FX owners.
I just don't see any developers bothering in the future, since everyone will
be able to play, but only the *ATi* mass market will get the good DX9.
 
I agree with you partly, but to me it looks like those optimisations
aren't
actually worth it unless you have a 5900Ultra or above.

Therefore, the developers are more likely to drop the FX optimisations
altogether.

Think about it, even with optimisations, the nVidia mass market (5600/5700)
still won't be able to run DX9 HL2.
Those people will end up turning down their settings to DX8.

If I was a developer, why would I bother to optimise for just the high end
of the nVidia market?
The high end of the market are mostly those who have done their reseach and
are *expecting* good DX9. And those people are now very likely to stop
buying nVidia, or sell any existing kit.

If I had a 5900Ultra right now, it would be on eBay, safe in the knowledge
that I could afford a 9800Pro with the sale proceeds.

At the end of it, anyone who has bought an nVidia card will just be those
users who don't know that they can get much better DX9 from ATi. They'll
play the new games in DX8, and maybe find out that next time they should
insist on ATi.

It's always been the case that the developers bring out the software, and
the consumer has to make the right choice if he/she wants the eye candy. It
has always been the case that you need to do your research first, and those
that do not, will not be complaining, as they will be able to run the game
in DX8 anyway.

The choice that the informed consumer will be forced to make in the future
will be ATi.

Current projects like HL2 have had to do the optimisations to ensure they
get the product out to as wide a consumer base as possible, which includes
the high end FX owners.
I just don't see any developers bothering in the future, since everyone will
be able to play, but only the *ATi* mass market will get the good DX9.
Click to expand...
You say this but what if Nvidia start putting pressure onto the game
developers which is very likely to happen, what would be better for you as a
company? Making your cards look extremely bad and forcing you to release a
new chip altogether which would cost millions and millions to a company that
has already lost millions and millions after the 5800 fiasco, or paying
developers to optimise for their cards? This is a big subject that needs to
be addressed, if it can be shown that nvidia really have screwed up big time
then it should be made known everywhere as soon as possible so that this
above scenario never happens...........
 
You say this but what if Nvidia start putting pressure onto the game
developers which is very likely to happen, what would be better for you as a
company? Making your cards look extremely bad and forcing you to release a
new chip altogether which would cost millions and millions to a company that
has already lost millions and millions after the 5800 fiasco, or paying
developers to optimise for their cards? This is a big subject that needs to
be addressed, if it can be shown that nvidia really have screwed up big time
then it should be made known everywhere as soon as possible so that this
above scenario never happens...........
Click to expand...

Yes, it's just a game of numbers now. If nVidia are able to buy loyalty from
the developers, so that the developers don't lose out by spending more time
working on optimisations, then nVidia might be able to paper over the
cracks.

They are probably knocking on the doors right now, of anyone in the middle
of, or about to start writing games that are likely to sell in volume.

But they'll have to offer something special, when ATi hardware will just
*work* for the coders.
 
The Robot said:
Yes, it's just a game of numbers now. If nVidia are able to buy loyalty from
the developers, so that the developers don't lose out by spending more time
working on optimisations, then nVidia might be able to paper over the
cracks.

They are probably knocking on the doors right now, of anyone in the middle
of, or about to start writing games that are likely to sell in volume.

But they'll have to offer something special, when ATi hardware will just
*work* for the coders.
Click to expand...
You still miss the point, there are far less Ati owners, the biggest market
is nvidia owners, developers incentives are a cash bonus from nvidia and
bigger sales, if they don't bother then they lose sales and no bonus from
nvidia. Don't forget Nvidia already have their names on loads of
games.......
Also, it's only going to be the high end nvidia users who spot this problem
which is why it needs highlighted properly and thats a very small market,
nvidia can afford to lose those customers, they can't afford to lose the mid
range customers, the 5600 and lower end 5200 owners, and how many of them
are going to be too worried about playing games with no idea of the
problkems of their cards?
I'm not trying to bring down nvidia here, I'm trying to stop them papering
over the cracks as previous poster mentioned, it's corporate fraud here and
one which can potentially affect all of us if nvidia start paying off
developers to optimise for their cards delaying games for everyone
else.....It will also slow down the technology in games, maybe developers
will be less likely to push the boundaries?.......this is all very plausible
which is why it can't happen.
 
If HL2 were to play like a turd for nVidia mass market, then Valve would
lose sales.

It makes sense to sell a product that will actually work for the consumer.

I think the underlying coding probably needed a fair bit of tweaking for
nVidia, speaking as an ex coder myself. But then, I'm not a Valve game
coder.


JAD said:
too bad I cant go back 4-5 years ago and post some of the wild rumors
Click to expand...
that circulated when ATI was going down..and nvid would rein
supreme..no competition at any level be it price, FPS, DX compatibility,
Click to expand...
etc will never help the consumer....and please, I doubt
seriously that any production halted on HL because of any ONE hardware
Click to expand...
manufacturer. Course if the game opens with nvidia
 
What was that other link posted in here about pixel shading on fx cards?
Anyone got it?
 
methylenedioxy said:
Are we witnessing the downfall of Nvidia here then? Did you read about
having to rewrite game codes for fx chipsets? If this is the case
then are games makers going to put up with that? Maybe this is the
whole reason why HL2 was delayed? rewriting code so that the bloody
fx can play the game..........If this is the case then game makers
should just say piss off, screw sales :)
Click to expand...

Looking at the thing, their recomendation is to just treat NV35 as Direct3D
8 hardware, and not to run any Direct3D 9 code.
This could well see the end of nvidia as we know it.....
Click to expand...

Nah - they'll learn from their mistake and if the next revision is not more
in line with the interfaces so as to increase speed, the one after will be.
They still have a large market share, especially with OEMs, that doesn't
turn around over night - they'll survive... for now.

Ben
 
The said:
If HL2 were to play like a turd for nVidia mass market, then Valve
would lose sales.
Click to expand...

It won'tt run like turd. The excuse has ALWAYS been to get faster hardware
or turn down the eye-candy.
It makes sense to sell a product that will actually work for the
consumer.
Click to expand...

And it will... with lower eye-candy. It will still be pretty.
I think the underlying coding probably needed a fair bit of tweaking
for nVidia, speaking as an ex coder myself. But then, I'm not a Valve
game coder.
Click to expand...


Looks like they spent a whole load of time tweaking. Remember that the ATI
Pixel shader hardware closely matches with the API, nVidias does not.

There is only so much you can do to get around that problem, but reducing
precision and switching features off is the only significant way to get
around such serious disadvantages.

Both Carmack and the Valve guy have said this.

Ben
 
Ben Pope said:
It won'tt run like turd. The excuse has ALWAYS been to get faster hardware
or turn down the eye-candy.
Click to expand...

You're right, you'll get OK frame rates on a 5600Ultra if you turn off DX9.
Meaning you could have got a better deal buying a Ti4200.
Imagine how pissed some people will be, if they've upgraded to a 5600 Ultra.
And when they upgrade again, they'll go for ATi.
And it will... with lower eye-candy. It will still be pretty.
Click to expand...

I don't doubt it, that's why I'm sticking with my Ti4800SE.
Looks like they spent a whole load of time tweaking. Remember that the ATI
Pixel shader hardware closely matches with the API, nVidias does not.

There is only so much you can do to get around that problem, but reducing
precision and switching features off is the only significant way to get
around such serious disadvantages.

Both Carmack and the Valve guy have said this.
Click to expand...

Right. So?
 
The said:
Right. So?
Click to expand...

I'm in agreement with you. I'm highlighting the reason behind the tweaking.
And I'm telling you the names of some poeple who have said this and who are
probably qualified to do so.

:-P

Ben
 
Apologies, I had read the article previously.

Ben Pope said:
I'm in agreement with you. I'm highlighting the reason behind the tweaking.
And I'm telling you the names of some poeple who have said this and who are
probably qualified to do so.

:-P

Ben
Click to expand...
 
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