non-chipped

[Arthur Entlich]

So, we have now proven the ambiguous nature of language, and especially
written language, which lacks the cues of intonation, eye contact,
facial expression and body language.

This shows just how important the use of emocons are in text messages,
and the importance of being descriptive and unambiguous as possible, to
avoid confusion, misunderstanding and disagreements.

Add to this the universal nature of the net, where many participants use
second languages and its a potentially pretty explosive atmosphere.

Makes one think about how many wars were the result of basic linguistic
misunderstandings over the years.

Peace Mahn,

Art

In message <[email protected]>,

You see you can't answer yes or no to an -or- type question.
Example: Would you like soup or salad? [You do soup, do you salad?]

To which the answer could quite easily be yes or no.
Yes - I would like one or the other
Yes - I would like both
No - I would like neither soup nor salad.

Or a quiz show type question:
Q: Is Jupiter or Saturn the biggest planet in the solar system?
A: Yes (one of them is the biggest planet in the solar system)

 

[Burt]

The comment I made (twisted for emphasis) is that double negatives were
common and commonly accepted in English but that was at least 300 years
ago. Not common now, that is why I said we are late. Not limited to the
"ain't got no" phrase you gave. Note also that "ain't" was at one time the
preferred polite form.

I take exception to your conclusion on the Japanese/American example.
The, "you don't -----, do you?" question is certainly commonly heard in
American English. Americans are often confused about how to answer the
question. The proof is that a stranger asks this type of question of a
group of 5-6 people, one person answers, the stranger walks away, and then
a debate begins in the group about whether the answering person gave the
correct answer even though everyone in the group is aware of the facts.
The only correct response is "What do you mean?" because there is no
correct answer since the questions asks a negative and a positive at the
same time.
I have been in literally hundreds of debates on whether the answer to such
a question should have been yes or no.

George - I'm talking about native Japanese in Japan who have learned
English as a second language in their country and take, quite literally, the
no-no on double negatives. Thus the "yes" answer to "you don't have any
widgets, do you?" meaning yes we don't have any. No reference to
Japanese-Americans whose first language is English and who understand the
idiomatic use of the negative question.

 

[GEO Me]

Which inks are known to actually damage printers?

I had the experience of damage on some Canon BC-02 cartridges when
using Costco's 'one size fits all' ink.

Geo

 

[George E. Cawthon]

George E. Cawthon wrote:
The, "you don't -----,

do you?" question is certainly commonly heard in
American English. Americans are often confused
about how to answer the question. The proof is
that a stranger asks this type of question of a
group of 5-6 people, one person answers, the
stranger walks away, and then a debate begins in
the group about whether the answering person gave
the correct answer even though everyone in the
group is aware of the facts. The only correct
response is "What do you mean?" because there is
no correct answer since the questions asks a
negative and a positive at the same time.
I have been in literally hundreds of debates on
whether the answer to such a question should have
been yes or no.

Question: You do not, do you? [You do not? You do?]
Answer one: I do not.
Answer two: I do.

Example.

You do not have any aardvarks, do you?

1: I do not (have any aadvarks)
2: I do (have any aardvarks)

Your assumption is faulty, The standard answer to
such question is Yes or No. Where I live the only
time you would hear "I do" or "I do not" as an
answer would be on TV in a courthouse drama (or
maybe a wedding).

Most people would answer the above question with
No. But a substantial number would answer the
question with Yes. And, none of them would have
aardvarks.

It's not a double negative but rather a question whether you do or do
not have, to be clear, we can add -or-

Of course is has nothing to do with a double
negative. Sure you can add "or" but that isn't
common in American English.

Example: You do not know, or do you? [Do you not know, or do you
know].

Americans normally do not put an "or" in such a
question. And or is usually reserved for
questions where the answers can not be yes or no.
They may run two questions together without
waiting for an answer. Example. You don't know?
Do you?
Or for more emphasis they may say, You don't know?
Or, do you?

Such questions are generally intended as
accusatory statement rather than a request for an
answer.

You see you can't answer yes or no to an -or- type question.

Of course you can't, but the above isn't a true
"or" question and that was the the discussion subject.

Example: Would you like soup or salad? [You do soup, do you salad?]

Yes this is a true "or" type question.

The short answer has to be "soup" or "salad" or
maybe "neither" since yes or no would make no sense.
I have no idea what your bracketed statement is
intended to mean since people don't "do" soup or
salad.

 

[George E. Cawthon]

George - I'm talking about native Japanese in Japan who have learned
English as a second language in their country and take, quite literally, the
no-no on double negatives. Thus the "yes" answer to "you don't have any
widgets, do you?" meaning yes we don't have any. No reference to
Japanese-Americans whose first language is English and who understand the
idiomatic use of the negative question.

Whoa, I think we are talking past each other. I
agree with you about second language speakers
(wouldn't have to be native Japanese speakers, but
could also be speakers of other languages). My
exception was that the Japanese speakers response
is not limited to Japanese speakers, plenty of
first language American English speakers would
respond the same as the Japanese in your example.

 

[zakezuke]

George E. Cawthon wrote:
The, "you don't -----,

do you?" question is certainly commonly heard in
American English. Americans are often confused
about how to answer the question. The proof is
that a stranger asks this type of question of a
group of 5-6 people, one person answers, the
stranger walks away, and then a debate begins in
the group about whether the answering person gave
the correct answer even though everyone in the
group is aware of the facts. The only correct
response is "What do you mean?" because there is
no correct answer since the questions asks a
negative and a positive at the same time.
I have been in literally hundreds of debates on
whether the answer to such a question should have
been yes or no.

Question: You do not, do you? [You do not? You do?]
Answer one: I do not.
Answer two: I do.

Example.

You do not have any aardvarks, do you?

1: I do not (have any aadvarks)
2: I do (have any aardvarks)

Your assumption is faulty, The standard answer to
such question is Yes or No. Where I live the only
time you would hear "I do" or "I do not" as an
answer would be on TV in a courthouse drama (or
maybe a wedding).

I guess I am always on TV in a courthouse drama, or a wedding.

The thing is, I believe this syntax's root orgins is from the Norse
invluence.

Firstly, some old norse words
vill - will - want and will
vilja - will - want to try
vil - want and can not unless you permit it
vil-ek - will not - does not want

My background in Norse is limited to that of an average english speaker
so I quote a wiser sorce than my self
http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/olessons/lesson3.php?colors=1
-----
Konungrinn vill vega mennina. The king wants to kill the men.
Þeir vilja taka hestinn. They want to take the horse.
Ek vil mæla. I want to speak.
Eta vil ek eigi. I don't want to eat.
------------

Question: Will you eat? [are you hungry]
Answer1: I will not eat. [I'm not hungry]
Answer2: I will eat. [I'm hungry]

Adpating old Norse syntax to modern english, we can easily see where
"you don't, do you? comes from.

-note, my Norse is not up to snuff, so take my syntax with a grain of
salt.
Question: þú vil eigi, þú wil ek eigi? [you will eat, you will not
eat?]
Answer1: Eka vil ek eigi [I will not eat]
Answer2 Ek vil eigi [I will eat]

You see this is not a yes or not question, it's asking will or will
not, two choices. Do you, or do you not.

Your assumption is faulty, The standard answer to
such question is Yes or No.

My logic is sound, you ask an if/or question and get a yes or no
answer, this leads to confusion. And "You don't have any bananas, do
you?" is just like "Do you want soup, or salad". "Don't have bananas?
Have Bananas".

Most people would answer the above question with
No. But a substantial number would answer the
question with Yes. And, none of them would have
aardvarks.

This is exactly my point. The correct responce would be

"I have aardvarks" or "I do not have aardvarks".

Of course is has nothing to do with a double
negative. Sure you can add "or" but that isn't
common in American English.

Let us see.

Question, "do you have any coffee, or are you out?"
Question "Do you have coffee, or not"
Question "you don't have any.... do you?"

Answer: "I have coffee"
Answer "I have not any coffee" [I haven't got any]

Americans normally do not put an "or" in such a
question. And or is usually reserved for
questions where the answers can not be yes or no.
They may run two questions together without
waiting for an answer. Example. You don't know?
Do you?
Or for more emphasis they may say, You don't know?
Or, do you?

Exactly... adding the or while more formal is quite acceptable in
american english, but it's generally dropped.

Question "Soup, Salad" {would you like soup, or salad)

You see you can't answer yes or no to an -or- type question.

Of course you can't, but the above isn't a true
"or" question and that was the the discussion subject.

Example: Would you like soup or salad? [You do soup, do you salad?]

Yes this is a true "or" type question.

The short answer has to be "soup" or "salad" or
maybe "neither" since yes or no would make no sense.
I have no idea what your bracketed statement is
intended to mean since people don't "do" soup or
salad.

Example: I do salads. I make them, I eat them, I enjoy them. On
fridays I do fish. I don't catch the fish, I generally go to the local
fish n' chips place. But I won't do the tuna, as much as I like tuna,
I fear for the dolphins.

Example: Would you like to do a movie?

 

[George E. Cawthon]

zakezuke wrote:

((snipped))
Too much stuff so I picked just one.

Let us see.

Question, "do you have any coffee, or are you out?"

Sure some people ask this question. Anyone who
uses his/her brain knows there is something wrong
with it.

"Do you have any coffee" , or better "Do you have
coffee?" is the real question. The part after the
comma, "or are you out?" is just chatter and adds
nothing. Reminds me of all the extra words TV
weather people use like "your weekend" Don't know
why they think somebody owns the weekend.

Question "Do you have coffee, or not"

Same as the first question, except that I can't
imagine an American adding the "or not."
A fatuous educated person might ask, Do you or do
you not have coffee?

Question "you don't have any.... do you?"

This type of question assume the negative and is
accusatory. A more polite person would ask, "Why
don't you have any .......

Answer: "I have coffee"
Answer "I have not any coffee" [I haven't got any]

Possible answer to the your first question is:
Yes I have coffee and No, it is obvious I am in.

Possible answer to your second question is:
Yes I have coffee but I don't knot.

Possible answer to the your third question is:
Get the eff out of here. And don't come back.

 

[zakezuke]

zakezuke wrote:

((snipped))
Too much stuff so I picked just one.
Sure some people ask this question. Anyone who
uses his/her brain knows there is something wrong
with it.

"Do you have any coffee" , or better "Do you have
coffee?" is the real question. The part after the
comma, "or are you out?" is just chatter and adds
nothing. Reminds me of all the extra words TV
weather people use like "your weekend" Don't know
why they think somebody owns the weekend.

The "extra" words are put in to illistrate proper english syntax. You
don't have to say -or- in conditional queries because it's understood
that you are asking the question "Do you have something, or *not*". In
fact "You don't, do you?" in it self adds the chatter but it makes it
clear you are asking if someone has something, or not.

"Do you have coffee, or are you out" could result in this responce
Answer: "We do not have coffee, we don't carry coffee"

Same as the first question, except that I can't
imagine an American adding the "or not."
A fatuous educated person might ask, Do you or do
you not have coffee?

It's no more or less fatuous than asking "You don't have coffee, do
you?" because people are not taught proper English. Either you have,
or have not the coffee. Yes or no confuses people for good reason,
it's not a yes or no question. It's a soup or salad question.

This type of question assume the negative and is
accusatory. A more polite person would ask, "Why
don't you have any .......

It's no more or less rude than "you don't, do you?" which is what I
believe we are talking about.

Answer: "I have coffee"
Answer "I have not any coffee" [I haven't got any]

Possible answer to the your first question is:
Yes I have coffee and No, it is obvious I am in.

Possible answer to your second question is:
Yes I have coffee but I don't knot.

Possible answer to the your third question is:
Get the eff out of here. And don't come back.

You'll note that you indicated the postive or negative answers "Yes,
have coffee" making it perfectly clear that it's coffee that you have,
and not the absence of it. Technicaly speaking, since it's not a yes
or not type question, but rather a soup or salad question. Any yes or
no you hear is not actually the speaker speaking to you but rather to
them self, picking one of the or conditions and exploring the
possibility.

Question: "Got coffee or don't you"?
[I ask my self if I have coffee, looking around]
Answer: "Nope," I say to my self discovering the extreme absence of
anything resembling coffee, "I guess I have no coffee".

Either you have the coffee, or you don't have the coffee. You don't
yes the coffee or no the coffee.

This is why the correct responce to these questions, in terms of syntax
and grammar, and answer the question "I have" or "I have not". "I do
have" or "I do not have". Use of this syntax, shorting it to "Don't
have it, sorry", or "I have it" is not only proper english, but makes
it perfectly clear whether you got it or don't got it. Answering just
yes or no is well, rude.

 

[measekite]

kim wrote:



In newer printers, there's a small bit of circuitry embedded on the
print cartridge - it communicates with the printer, in effect.

It's 'touted' purpose is to protect the user, by better informing them
of the state of the carts - ink levels etc. BUT, in my opinion, it's a
vaguely disguised cash grab, as the chipping makes it more challenging
for people to refill the carts with cheaper after-market ink.

it is good that canon is protecting their customers

The manufacturers _have_ been burned in the past, by people who've
buggered up their printers in the process of refilling them, and then
taken them back for warranty replacement.

soom they will enforce their warranty claims

These carts with the chips
will warn you about warranty violation if you're refilling them, and
then do wacky stuff like stop reporting ink levels after a few refills.

non-chipped means that users can refill the carts to their hearts'
content, without the printer being the wiser.

and then they can enjoy fading and clogged printheads

 

[measekite]

Yup, I agree - I only wish the aftermarket ink was more similar to OEM.
I just tried my first refill of a Canon Pixma, using Hobbicolors. Sadly
unimpressed.

they will not tell you what ink they are selling so each purchase may be
from a real different source.

I haven't given up yet, but I'm not hopeful. I'll try other
formulations,

you will not find much difference

 

[measekite]

you never know what you are getting. many relabelers are selling the
same stuff under different labels. in most cases it is not worth the
aggravation

 

[George E. Cawthon]

zakezuke wrote:

((snipped))
Too much stuff so I picked just one.
Sure some people ask this question. Anyone who
uses his/her brain knows there is something wrong
with it.

"Do you have any coffee" , or better "Do you have
coffee?" is the real question. The part after the
comma, "or are you out?" is just chatter and adds
nothing. Reminds me of all the extra words TV
weather people use like "your weekend" Don't know
why they think somebody owns the weekend.

The "extra" words are put in to illistrate proper english syntax. You
don't have to say -or- in conditional queries because it's understood
that you are asking the question "Do you have something, or *not*". In
fact "You don't, do you?" in it self adds the chatter but it makes it
clear you are asking if someone has something, or not.

"Do you have coffee, or are you out" could result in this responce
Answer: "We do not have coffee, we don't carry coffee"

Same as the first question, except that I can't
imagine an American adding the "or not."
A fatuous educated person might ask, Do you or do
you not have coffee?

It's no more or less fatuous than asking "You don't have coffee, do
you?" because people are not taught proper English. Either you have,
or have not the coffee. Yes or no confuses people for good reason,
it's not a yes or no question. It's a soup or salad question.

This type of question assume the negative and is
accusatory. A more polite person would ask, "Why
don't you have any .......

It's no more or less rude than "you don't, do you?" which is what I
believe we are talking about.

Answer: "I have coffee"
Answer "I have not any coffee" [I haven't got any]

Possible answer to the your first question is:
Yes I have coffee and No, it is obvious I am in.

Possible answer to your second question is:
Yes I have coffee but I don't knot.

Possible answer to the your third question is:
Get the eff out of here. And don't come back.

You'll note that you indicated the postive or negative answers "Yes,
have coffee" making it perfectly clear that it's coffee that you have,
and not the absence of it.

Another strangeness. One can not have the absence
of something, that is totally illogical. If you
have something you have it. If there is an
absence of something you don't have it. So, one
can say "I do not have coffee" but one cannot say
I have no coffee. Well, one could say it if one
has no concept of logic. Lots of questions and
statements may be correct grammatically and have
correct syntax but be illogical.


Technicaly speaking, since it's not a yes

or not type question, but rather a soup or salad question. Any yes or
no you hear is not actually the speaker speaking to you but rather to
them self, picking one of the or conditions and exploring the
possibility.

Question: "Got coffee or don't you"?
[I ask my self if I have coffee, looking around]
Answer: "Nope," I say to my self discovering the extreme absence of
anything resembling coffee, "I guess I have no coffee".

Either you have the coffee, or you don't have the coffee. You don't
yes the coffee or no the coffee.

This is why the correct responce to these questions, in terms of syntax
and grammar, and answer the question "I have" or "I have not". "I do
have" or "I do not have". Use of this syntax, shorting it to "Don't
have it, sorry", or "I have it" is not only proper english, but makes
it perfectly clear whether you got it or don't got it. Answering just
yes or no is well, rude.

You have the strangest concept of American
English. No American says "I have not
(something). The song, Yes I have no bananas
today mocks the type of question we have discussed.

Answering yes or no to a question that asks for a
positive or negative response is not rude. E.g.,
Do you have coffee? A simple Yes, is not rude.

 

[zakezuke]

Another strangeness. One can not have the absence
of something, that is totally illogical. If you
have something you have it. If there is an
absence of something you don't have it. So, one
can say "I do not have coffee" but one cannot say
I have no coffee. Well, one could say it if one
has no concept of logic. Lots of questions and
statements may be correct grammatically and have
correct syntax but be illogical.

Example, "I have no money"
Example, "I have no debt"
Example, "I have no worries"
Example, "I have NO coffee"

---------------------------------------

Example, "I have not got no money, only what's in my pocket"
Example, "I haven't got no debt, I still have things to pay off"
Example, "I haven't got no worries, I am troubled about the weather"
Examplle, "I haven't got *no coffee*, I do have Nescafe. Sumimasen"


The above is quite acceptable grammaticly, and the syntax is logical,
further more it's the least chatty, a concern you bought up before.

You can have the absence of something.

Example, "Are you out of coffee"
Answer, "Yes, I have no coffee"

You have the strangest concept of American
English. No American says "I have not
(something). The song, Yes I have no bananas
today mocks the type of question we have discussed.

It sounds FAR less akward when you use the contraction "haven't"
"I haven't got any bananas"

Question: "Got milk"
Answer "I haven't got milk"

To have, or to have not is quite acceptable though use of the
contraction is most common in american english, it doesn't change to
fact that the root phrase would have been Norticly influenced.

Note: "have not got"
Note: "haven't got"

Answering yes or no to a question that asks for a
positive or negative response is not rude. E.g.,
Do you have coffee? A simple Yes, is not rude.

That's rather my point.

"Do you have coffee, or not?"
-yes- or -no- would be rude because it's a soup or salad question. You
either do have coffee, or do not have coffee. You don't yes coffee or
no coffee, that's not the question. the question is have you, or have
you not coffee.

As far as my strange notions of English, they come from an awarness
it's a bastardized language, one which average joes tend to forget the
"why fors" behind every day phrases. One step to this end is expanding
out all the contractions typicaly used, and your confusion illistrated
my point beautifuly. You see, lack of contractions makes a sentance
sound wacky.

 

[George E. Cawthon]

Example, "I have no money"
Example, "I have no debt"
Example, "I have no worries"
Example, "I have NO coffee"

---------------------------------------

Example, "I have not got no money, only what's in my pocket"
Example, "I haven't got no debt, I still have things to pay off"
Example, "I haven't got no worries, I am troubled about the weather"
Examplle, "I haven't got *no coffee*, I do have Nescafe. Sumimasen"


The above is quite acceptable grammaticly, and the syntax is logical,
further more it's the least chatty, a concern you bought up before.

Actually it substandard English close to gutter
English and would get red marks on any term paper.

You can have the absence of something.

Only in your mind.

Example, "Are you out of coffee"
Answer, "Yes, I have no coffee"




It sounds FAR less akward when you use the contraction "haven't"
"I haven't got any bananas"

Question: "Got milk"
Answer "I haven't got milk"

To have, or to have not is quite acceptable though use of the
contraction is most common in american english, it doesn't change to
fact that the root phrase would have been Norticly influenced.

Note: "have not got"
Note: "haven't got"



That's rather my point.

"Do you have coffee, or not?"

I'll repeat, that is lousy English, not considered
proper because the "or not" is tacked on the end
instead of being properly placed.

-yes- or -no- would be rude because it's a soup or salad question. You
either do have coffee, or do not have coffee. You don't yes coffee or
no coffee, that's not the question. the question is have you, or have
you not coffee.

The question properly is "Do you have coffee?"
That deserves a yes or no answer.

As far as my strange notions of English, they come from an awarness
it's a bastardized language, one which average joes tend to forget the
"why fors" behind every day phrases. One step to this end is expanding
out all the contractions typicaly used, and your confusion illistrated
my point beautifuly. You see, lack of contractions makes a sentance
sound wacky.

To end this, I say good luck in your endeavors.
Please don't teach English grammar, composition,
or writing.

 

[zakezuke]

I'll repeat, that is lousy English, not considered
proper because the "or not" is tacked on the end
instead of being properly placed.


The question properly is "Do you have coffee?"
That deserves a yes or no answer.

But that wasn't the start of this subthread, the start of this
subthread was something to the effect of "You got this, don't you?".

The question, "Do you have coffee, or not?" is rather illistrating
American conversational english. Is it proper? Hell no! Is it proper
to answer a yes or no to a this or that question? Hell no!

To end this, I say good luck in your endeavors.
Please don't teach English grammar, composition,
or writing.

Yes, you might as well end this, you are, with all due respect, all
over the map. You start off with proper english references, argue it's
not American english, conversational english, or too chatty. At this
point I have NO idea what you are talking about. Are we talking formal
english, english composition, or conversational english.

Where as I have stayed pretty much on the topic of "You don't have it,
do you", illistrating that it's a this or that question, not a yes or
no question, which is common in American english. If you are now going
to argue that it's not proper grammar. Adding -or- "you don't have it,
or do you" makes the question more clear, but as you pointed out that
is far too formal.

But any english class worth it's salt is going to spend time with it's
students expanding contractions, and looking at comma use. The stuff I
covered is mostly from my 5th grade reader, rather elemetory why things
they are the way they are.

Any weirdness you detect is the fact that people like my self tend to
explain these concepts to non-native speakers.

But my point, my entire point is this
"You don't understand, do you!"
Answer: "I do not understand"

To answer yes or no to this question is rude, because as you pointed
out a yes or no answer leads to confusion. It's a this or that
question. Either you "get it" or you "do not get it". Clearly you do
not because while I am talking basic conversational english, a odd ball
throwback to the Nortic influence on early middle english, you seem to
be under the firm opinion that it's either not proper American english,
not proper composed American english, too chatty to be conversational
english, or some other unrealted complaint.

"you have coffee, don't you?"
Answer, "I have coffee" / "Yes I have coffee".
Answer, "I don't have coffee" / "No, I don't have coffee"
Unacceptable answer, "Yes" / "no"