N
null
Exactly how was this poll done? How did it acheive a zero margin of
error?
Art
http://www.epix.net/~artnpeg
Exactly how was this poll done? How did it acheive a zero margin of
error?
Art
http://www.epix.net/~artnpeg
N
null
I view Windows as a Trojan than can be fixed with a little bit of
work, and the use of sane internet apps to replace IE and OE.
Art
http://www.epix.net/~artnpeg
B
Bob Adkins
It's the "Zero margin of error" bunch that make all the childish remarks
about (insert product name here)
You see, children do not understand that nothing in this world is perfect or
has zero margin of error. Adults can quickly factor in normal margins of
error, and a "stuff happens" factor.
You will grow up some day and understand. You will learn tolerance, lest
people lose their tolerance for you.
Bob
Remove "kins" to reply by e-mail.
N
null
Tolerance of buggy, vulnerable, and insecure internet apps when there
are far better ones available is just plain stupid .... and has
nothing to do with "growing up".
Art
http://www.epix.net/~artnpeg
B
Bob Adkins
Here we go again, speaking in absolutes.
I agree with you in principal. I have little tolerance of bug-ridden
software myself. However, any software that has 10,000 teen aged boys
hacking on it all night will reveal vulnerabilities. We need to understand
that.
If (insert browser or OS here) had 90% of the market, it would be the prime
target, and hacks would become plentiful.
Remember, with enough effort, anything that can be created can be destroyed.
Anything that can be locked can be unlocked. Anything that can be secured
can be unsecured.
Bob
Remove "kins" to reply by e-mail.
C
Conor
And did it take account of the massive amount of people who will
actually have mal/adware on their PCs that they got through IE but are
completely unaware of it or don't associate the two?
N
null
However, Micro$oft puts out OS and apps which are _absurdly_ and
quite obviously unsafe to put on the internet. Dangerous services and
features too numerous to mention are enabled by default. Gnubies and
non-techies don't stand a chance. They take hits of all kinds ...
spyware, adware and malware in general. They're not just on the virus
newsgroups with their problems anymore. I see users suffering with
various _unnecessary_ malware problems asking for help on many
newsgroups nowdays.
It does no good to make excuses and defenses as you're trying to do,
No good at all. It's difficult enough trying to help users out and
educate them into safer settings and apps as it is.
Are you going to be part of the problem or the solution? That's the
question.
Art
http://www.epix.net/~artnpeg
H
H-Man
I've read this thread and find it completely hilarious. IE is insecure,
this is a fact, and so is Windows, also a fact. There are suitable
alternatives for both that address these security concerns, yet the
complainers here continue to use these insecure products. Is this
Microsofts fault? I'd say no. If I know a product is bad, and I continue
to use it, and continue to purchase newer versions, I'm a fool then,
right? If a company like Microsoft provides such bad product, why then
would I spend any cash on their product, and why would I continue to use
it. If an ISP requires IE and Windows to sign up, why then would I not
look for alternatives there. The OP made a choice, and got bit for it,
this is not Microsoft's fault. Please don't misunderstand, I'm not
defending Microsoft's products, or the company really, but the problems
people experience with MS product are mostly avoidable. Take a lesson
from that.
I use IE every day, some of my suppliers have web sites that are IE
only. We are currently trying to affect change there as well, but in the
mean time, it is the fault of my suppliers I need IE, isn't it. I also
use Firefox every day, on Linux, this is my way of not using bad
product. Again, we are all driven by our own choices, if we make bad
choices, companies like Microsoft get rich and continue to release
substandard product, if we make good choices, companies like Microsoft
are driven to release better products. Simple economics in the end.
HK
B
Bob Adkins
I am not even close to being a techie, and I have no security issues with IE
or Windows XP. I think that's generally true, as I have many friends that
have no problems with it. Common sense has always worked for me.
In my experience, only the n00b's and the extremely careless have problems
with it.
Sure, there are vulnerabilities. Most of these vulnerabilities could not
possibly have been anticipated by MS or anyone else years ago when the code
was first developed. Nobody could have even conceived of "Internet Worms"
back then.
Don't believe the detractors when they say that MS has no regard for
security. Believe me, MS absolutely hates Windows getting hacked. It costs
them millions annually, and causes untold bad will. If there were a magic
bullet, they would have long since fired it. Windows XP SP2 has been delayed
for months, largely because they are trying to improve security. It goes
without saying that Longhorn being delayed largely to improve security. It's
not an easy task. Many here speak as though MS could flip a switch and make
IE secure. In the real world, things don't work that way. Every
vulnerability that's closed usually affects existing software in some way.
MS is damned if they do, damned if they don't.
Bob
Remove "kins" to reply by e-mail.
B
Bob Adkins
Well said!
Bob
Remove "kins" to reply by e-mail.
G
Gordon Darling
I am and I do.
On the contrary, you and >everyone< using the Internet has problems with
Windows and IE (even if you use a Mac). According to the latest
MessageLabs report the level of spam is now well over well 70% of the
total of all emails sent and 80% of that is coming from zombied windows
PCs. Every dumb worm that generates billions of packets attacking other
machines slows down the net for >all< of us.
Then you live a very sheltered life. If I had ten bucks for every home
PC I've found which had never been anywhere near "Windows Update", with no
firewall, no AV software (or installed but never updated), a zillion bit's
of malware and porn diallers I'd be a very, very rich man. And SOHO
businesses are just as bad - if it costs money to a small business
then forget it.
Complete bollocks. Look up the "Morris Worm" and look at the date! Bill
Gates was still in nappies.
There is a whole library of works on OS security that predates DOS 1.0 by
decades.
Too little, too bloody late. The only reason Microsoft is paying attention
to Security (as opposed to bells and whistles and trying to lock users
into proprietary formats) is because of the widely held perception that
the Windows code base is deeply and fundamentally flawed. And that is
now hitting them where it hurts, in the bottom line. Many security
professionals whose opinion I respect believe that IE is unrepairable at
the rest of the windows code base. Or as someone with a better sense of
humour than me put it.
Microsoft Windows: A thirty-two bit extension and graphical shell to a
sixteen-bit patch to an eight-bit operating system originally coded for a
four-bit microprocessor which was written by a two-bit company that can't
stand one bit of competition
And to shove in Digital Rights Management, lockdown of software
installations, a move to software "rental" rather than purchase,
certification of "approved software", patent protection, etc. "Trusted
Computing" ring a bell? Have a good look at the Longhorn roadmap.
Yes, it really does happen in the real world. Net BSD, Free BSD, DEC VMS,
Solaris, OS X, AIX, HP-UX.
See comments above re deeply flawed code base.
Regards
Gordon
B
Bob Adkins
So Gordon, if you're an X user, why are you so upset? Go use your X and
enjoy the perfect functionality, invulnerability, jillions of free programs,
and excellent hardware compatibility and let me suffer alone in Windows
Hell.
Gordon, I know you don't like vulnerabilities. Why do you act as though I
enjoy them? I bet I hate them just as much as you do. Instead of running
around like screaming like my hair is on fire, I simply use AV, Spyware, and
Firewall programs. I keep my OS patched with the critical security updates.
Takes 2 minutes a month. <shrug>
If Windows is so friggin' bad, why are over 80% of the REAL experts using
WinXP? By "experts" I mean tweaking and overclocking hobbyists that use and
appreciate excellent hardware. If they detect an iota of instability, they
bail out and find something more stable. Immediately!
Bob
Remove "kins" to reply by e-mail.
?
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=
So Gordon, if you're an X user, why are you so upset? Go use your
X and enjoy the perfect functionality, invulnerability, jillions
of free programs, and excellent hardware compatibility and let me
suffer alone in Windows Hell.
Windows Hell does not affect only Windows users, as Gordon pointed out
in the part of the post you snipped without addressing.
You act as if they are no big deal, and you shrug off concerns about
them.
That really doesn't help much more than running around screaming would.
Once you clean all the Microsoft machines which have been compromised
and are spewing spam and worms and make them secure, you will have
fixed the problem. Until then, you and Gordon and the rest of us
suffer, and it is largely because of very bad decisions made by
Microsoft.
You're correct to put "experts" in quotes there, but it should be in
quotes both times.
J
JanC
Bob Adkins said:
That's only 70% of the internet population...
J
JanC
H-Man said:
Windows isn't insecure, it's a heap of Microsoft programs that run on top
of it that are insecure.
C
Christopher Jahn
And said:
They are not. The real "experts" who do that kind of tweaking
and demand that they get the most out of hardware are on
linux, which allows them to do far more tweaking than Windows
ever has.
But they make their money doing lesser tweaks on Windows,
which has a larger base of inexperienced users that require
service.
--
Christopher Jahn:-(
http://home.comcast.net/~xjahn/Main.html
A sweater is a garment worn by a child when his mother feels
chilly.
D
derek / nul
If Windows is so friggin' bad, why are over 80% of the REAL
Experts don't use XP
I would not call a overclocker an expert
Experts don't use XP
I would not call a overclocker an expert
2
23mike
Bob said:Over 100 million people in this world use IE with no problems. What's
the matter with you? Learning disability?
Bob
And your excuse for using Forte Agent 2.0/32.640 instead of Outhouse is:
a) I'm a hypocrite
b) I don't have a clue about what I say, I just like to see myself in a
thread.
c) I have a "Learning disability "
Sorry Bob. Sometimes you provide good info and are helpful. This is
just not one of those times.
23mike
S
Scrubbs
derek said:
I just hope that with all this flak, people will read the original
posting and realise that this latest vulnerability has /not/ been fixed.
In particular that newbies should treat IE as a no-go area.
Gordon Darling's informative post on the topic of vulnerabilities (this
thread)is well worth reading. It is also bourne out by my experience
with client's PCs. I'd estimate that 95% of all viruses/adware I've
found on 3rd party PCs have been caused by IE. But there's a growing
number caused by the XP OS.
/Scrubbs
G
Gordon Darling
So Gordon, if you're an X user, why are you so upset? Go use your X and
enjoy the perfect functionality, invulnerability, jillions of free programs,
and excellent hardware compatibility and let me suffer alone in Windows
Hell.
See what I said about spam from zombied Windows machines, and worms like
Blaster, Sasser, etc. we all suffer. No operating system (except RTOS
systems) exists in a vacuum, not on a wired planet anyway.
Be quite clear, I'm not anti-Microsoft for the sake of it. I still
maintain a large number of Windows 2000 servers and it's a fairly stable,
mature OS and in many cases is the server of choice for a small business.
(Incidentally, as an aside, try buying new hardware with a Win 2K licence).
The problem is you and the others who post here, and by extension the
small minority who even know what Usenet is, are very much the minority.
If you look at the Internet Storm Centre or the DShield sites you'll see
that there are still tens of thousands of machines infected by the Blaster
worm. I'm sure as a fairly clued up user you weren't infected by Blaster
but well over a million machines were. Machines that had never been near
the Windows Update site.
"tweaking and overclocking hobbyists" are NOT experts. The actual take up
for XP is seriously frightening Microsoft's Accountants. Their last SCO
filing specifically noted that they were very disappointed by sales of XP
Professional to corporates. British Telecom (BT) one of
the biggest IT shops in the UK, "upgraded" at the end of last year from
Win 95 & 98 desktops to Win2K thin clients. Win XP is a road they are not
going down.
Regards
Gordon