Network File Server

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bob
  • Start date Start date
RAID and backups serve different purposes. RAID provides a degree of
protection against hardware failure, thus slightly increasing availability
of the system. Backups provide protection against software failure, user
error, malice, and other circumstances that can damage or destroy the data
on a disk without there being a hardware failure.
Without RAID, getting to where you can restore the backup can be a pain in
the butt. But RAID gives no protection at all against "format c:".

But I was thinking about a removeable disk drive, one which I would
mirror and then take out to put on the shelf. I would put a third
drive in and let the system mirror it.
It's built into Server. Officially Workstation can't do it without
third-party software. Storage Review has published a procedure that _may_
allow you to work around this--make backups first and test thoroughly
before you trust it--
<http://faq.storagereview.com/tiki-index.php?page=DesktopMirror>

As we all know, the server version of Windows is on the CD for the
workstation version. It's all a matter of accessing it.
If you are going to hot-swap then you need a hardware RAID controller or
SATA drives. Parallel ATA is not designed to support hot-swapping and the
Windows RAID drivers do not support it. There are parallel ATA RAID
controllers that do support hot swapping with compatible enclosures--you
need to read the fine print. Also read the fine print on SATA--while the
standard says that all SATA devices are supposed to support hot-swapping,
that doesn't mean that every vendor complies with the standard.

Thanks for your comments. I will stick to cold swap for now. I reboot
my machine daily, so shutting off the power is no big deal. I never
trusted hot-swap devices anyway.

--

Map Of The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy:
http://www.freewebs.com/vrwc/

"You can all go to hell, and I will go to Texas."
--David Crockett
 
Well said. Not just the above quote, but all of it.

All of you have been very enlightening. Thank you.

As I mentioned, I am thinking outloud about doing several things, like
having a DVD player-computer hooked to the TV and using it to be the
network file server where we can have data backup/recovery.


--

Map Of The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy:
http://www.freewebs.com/vrwc/

"You can all go to hell, and I will go to Texas."
--David Crockett
 
Bob said:
But I was thinking about a removeable disk drive, one which I would
mirror and then take out to put on the shelf. I would put a third
drive in and let the system mirror it.

That's a backup. You're only mirrored when both drives are in the machine.
If the RAID system you're using will allow it try a triple mirror, two
drives stay in the machine and one gets rotated for backup.
As we all know, the server version of Windows is on the CD for the
workstation version. It's all a matter of accessing it.

"We" may all know that but it is not the case. While the kernel may be the
same, the utilities are not--for example there's no way to set up and
administer Active Directory or Terminal Services using just what comes on
the Workstation CD.
 
Bob said:
Hmm.. what's wrong with ATA? Remember that I am considering a system
for home use.

He said they "flout" the standard, i.e. go against it in an egregious way.
As far as I know the standard has no mention of removable bays so I don't
see how it is "flouted" by them, OTOH, some of them don't have good
electrical properties and can cause unreliable operation--if you google
this newsgroup for "removable drive bay" I think you'll find a number of
threads discussing this issue.
As I mentioned in another thread, we are also considering putting a TV
card in that box so we can watch DVDs on TV.

In that case it's a media server. Nothing wrong with doing that but in my
experience home theater apps tend to be a bit flaky--I keep the files on a
separate machine from the one containing the capture board.
 
That's a backup. You're only mirrored when both drives are in the machine.
If the RAID system you're using will allow it try a triple mirror, two
drives stay in the machine and one gets rotated for backup.

I want to be sure I understand what you are saying. I have two drives
in the mirror configuration. I stop the machine, remove one drive and
replace it with a third drive, put the second drive on the shelf. Why
would I need a "triple mirror" - and exactly what is such a thing?

--

Map Of The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy:
http://www.freewebs.com/vrwc/

"You can all go to hell, and I will go to Texas."
--David Crockett
 
(e-mail address removed) (Bob) wrote in server.houston.rr.com:
I do not understand. I would expect a so-called "mirror" to be a
carbon copy of the disk being mirrored.

OK. I'm just trying to explain the issues you may run into with a mirrored
drive. If you don't want to read the long version, I'll sum it up here.

The short version is this: Backup software has more options than mirrored
disks. With a mirrored disk, you have only one recovery method, and either
it works or it doesn't. With backups, you have many more choices: what
gets backed up, how much, how often, how long, when, and where to. You can
have multiple choices for each. And this gives you multiple recovery
options.

Here is a typical recovery process for a mirrored drive and things to watch
out for. First you need to mount the mirrored drive to get anything off
it. For many controllers I've used, the drive will only mount in the
position where it was originally located. That is to say connected to the
same channel and position on the controller, same drive bay on the server.

That means pulling the current drive out, putting the old one back in. If
you want a combination of data, some from the old, some from the current,
you need to put stuff in a temporary third location, swap drives again,
then move it back to the final destination drive. Don't have a temporary
3rd storage location? You'll need to make one if you want to combine data
from both old and new drives.

During this time, it might not be possible to use the system, depending on
what apps you run. If it's something like a business system doing live data
capture, point of sale, ATM transactions, etc, you don't want to start
putting new data on top of an old database, when your current data is not
present. You end up with data in 2 locations, when you need it in one, and
may have no way of reconciling the transactions back into a single
database. So if you are a person with an app like this, you are basically
shut down until you complete the data swapping process I mentioned above.
Some individuals may not care. For others this downtime is not acceptable.
Also there is a risk that one of the disks might be accidently written to
during the process. It could be minor, it could wipe the disk.

Some controllers are smart enough allow you to put the drive in a different
bay. But that's only if the bay is configured for the same type of RAID
config. Even then, for the controllers I've used, it requires you to force
the controller to allow the drive to be connected where it was not
originally. I've seen server admins select the wrong menu choice in the
RAID controller and initialize the disk instead of force it to be
recognized. Ooops. There goes the backout.

But if you have a controller that can do this, and get the OS to see both
the current drive and the old drive at the same time, then you can use it
and pull files off it just like a backup, and not have to deal with the
temporary storage location that I mentioned above. Until you get to that
point though, the pulled drive is a very different beast from a "backup".
It only works in the system that created it, and it's an all or nothing
situation. Until it's mounted and working, you have the whole drive or you
have nothing. There are no other options. For some that's OK. For others
it's not.

I typically use mirrored drives all the time at work. I use it to "clone"
servers and also as a backout before making any OS or software updates to a
server. Before the change, a drive from every server gets pulled and
labled. Another drive gets put in it's place and mirrored up. Make the
changes. Do the testing. If the changes cause problems, revert to pulled
drive. If not, leave the servers for a week. Hold on to the pulled drives
for a week. Still no issues after a week? Release the pulled drives and
allow them to be reused.

But, we don't rely solely on pulled drives. Every server is built with a
disk image that gets backed up, and automated application installs. So
even if we lost the mirror, we can get the server back with an image and
re-installing the apps. On top of that, every server build is documented
on paper. So even if we lost the ghost image and app installs, we could
still rebuild it following the documentation to build it.

Now, most people don't need to do this at home, but believe it or not, some
do. For my friends that all ask for computer help, I make sure I only ever
rebuild their system once. At that point I do a disk image so that
whatever they might do in the future, I'll only have to restore that image,
not a full re-install. I burn multiple copies of the image on CDR. It
only saves me time down the road.

For my own computer, I already use disk images. But I also document my
base OS builds. Options chosen during OS install. Any BIOS changes needed.
Drivers and versions installed. Windows Updates installed. Any Windows or
Device / Network configs changed or tweaked. And the "Must Have" apps
installed. I burn all of this on to multiple DVDRs (Build Doc, OS
installs, Driver installs, App installs, Tweaks). So if one day I loose my
OS, I can restore from a ghost image on the other drive. If that's also
toast, I have a ghost image on DVDR. If that's toast, I have multiple
DVDRs with installs and docs. Several things would have to break before I
wouldn't be able to restore my PC. My important data gets backed up to
multiple locations so if one fails I have another place I can go to.

In defense of RAID, one big thing it it's favour is it's automatic (if it's
working right). It's not like a backup where the scheduler might fail for
whatever reason. It could fail for something as simple as an open file
that you wanted backed up. You know RAID is either working or it isn't.
Open files are not a problem for RAID. But they can be difficult to open
again if you don't close them before pulling the drive. Some databases
don't know how to re-open a db that wasn't properly closed. So often
people will shut database apps down before pulling a drive.
 
(e-mail address removed) (Bob) wrote in server.houston.rr.com:
All of you have been very enlightening. Thank you.

As I mentioned, I am thinking outloud about doing several things, like
having a DVD player-computer hooked to the TV and using it to be the
network file server where we can have data backup/recovery.

I think it can work. I think you were mentioning Celeron 400? The only
thing I'm concerned about are anything that might have high CPU usage. So
far, the highest cpu usage tasks you've mentioned would be DVD playback, and,
TV recording, if you intend to record TV programs with the tuner.

If you play AVI files as well, those can be demanding. It depends on the
codec used and the resolution it's used at. My P3-800 has problems on some
AVIs done with high resolutions and certain codecs. Sometimes you can fix
this by just reducing the playback quality of the decoder. Other times
nothing seems to work.

There are other ways around this. Either use a faster CPU, or offload
processing from the CPU. You can get cards with dedicated MPEG encoding and
decoding.

One example might be the ATI (All In Wonder) cards. The 9800 AIW has a TV
tuner, and is supposed to have accelerated mpeg encoding, mpeg decoding, DVD
decoding, and DivX decoding too. I can vouch for the accelerated mpeg and
DVD decoding, all ATI cards have had this for some time. Web reviews of this
card have shown reduced CPU usage for DivX playback on same systems with
different video cards. I'm not sure how they do the mpeg encoding though.
There is a cheaper version, the 9600 AIW. It's slower for 3D but I think it
offers the same feature set as the 9800. It also comes with their latest
wireless remote control and software, which is supposed to be quite good. So
one card might be able to do it all. If I built a shoebox PC to be a media
player, I'd want one of these cards. But it does raise the system cost.
 
But if you have a controller that can do this, and get the OS to see both
the current drive and the old drive at the same time, then you can use it
and pull files off it just like a backup, and not have to deal with the
temporary storage location that I mentioned above.

What controllers can do that?

--

Map Of The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy:
http://www.freewebs.com/vrwc/

"You can all go to hell, and I will go to Texas."
--David Crockett
 
I think it can work. I think you were mentioning Celeron 400?

Actually that was a minimal machine someone else suggested. I am
thinking about a 500 MHz K6-II machine running Win2K with 384 MB.

The only
thing I'm concerned about are anything that might have high CPU usage. So
far, the highest cpu usage tasks you've mentioned would be DVD playback, and,
TV recording, if you intend to record TV programs with the tuner.

I do not plan to record TV on the computer.
You can get cards with dedicated MPEG encoding and decoding.
One example might be the ATI (All In Wonder) cards. The 9800 AIW has a TV
tuner, and is supposed to have accelerated mpeg encoding, mpeg decoding, DVD
decoding, and DivX decoding too. I can vouch for the accelerated mpeg and
DVD decoding, all ATI cards have had this for some time. Web reviews of this
card have shown reduced CPU usage for DivX playback on same systems with
different video cards. I'm not sure how they do the mpeg encoding though.
There is a cheaper version, the 9600 AIW. It's slower for 3D but I think it
offers the same feature set as the 9800. It also comes with their latest
wireless remote control and software, which is supposed to be quite good. So
one card might be able to do it all. If I built a shoebox PC to be a media
player, I'd want one of these cards. But it does raise the system cost.

Thanks for the info.

--

Map Of The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy:
http://www.freewebs.com/vrwc/

"You can all go to hell, and I will go to Texas."
--David Crockett
 
(e-mail address removed) (Bob) wrote in server.houston.rr.com:
What controllers can do that?

I don't know of any ATA controllers that I can vouch for this. The old ones
I've tried it on, some time ago under Win2K server, could not do this, or I
couldn't get it to work. I was trying to get this working after the fact.
They may not have been configured correctly in the first place. When in
doubt, go with what works, which is the temporary storage location and swap
procedure. This was an outage situation so that's what I ended up doing.

My experience is mostly with SCSI RAID controllers... Compaq SmartArray and
Compaq Fiber Channel controllers can do this. Guess I'm supposed to call
them HP now? Old habits die hard.

But I would not rule out that perhaps newer cards can. If I had to pick one
that might be able to do it, I'd pick the ATA RAID cards from 3Ware, because
they are the "high-end" of ATA RAID controllers and seem to have the most
features and best support. 3Ware are the ones I'd want if I could afford
them. They've also been doing ATA RAID longer than Adaptec.

My next choice would be Adaptec, because they tend to have a bit more support
than the rest.

Next down the list would be Promise, because I've used several of their other
cards. Sometimes it takes them a few firmware and driver revisions to get
things right. They don't seem to respond to support emails. Handy to have a
good returns policy from your retailer if you try one out. They are one of
the cheapest and the support reflects this.

A lot of motherboard RAID controllers are either Hipoint or Promise. I
wouldn't rule out Hipoint, but I just haven't used them personally so would
try Promise first. Promise has been in the disk controller game for quite a
long time too.

You might want to google "ata raid review" or something like that to see if
you can find anyone who's tried a restore config like that. In theory it
should work on any of them. In practice, I've not gotten this to work on
older Hipoint and Promise conrollers.

Set up channel 0 for RAID 1, set up channel 1 for RAID 1. Leave 2 disks in
Channel 0. Pull all disks from channel 1, leave it empty. Pull a disk from
channel 0. Put it in Channel 1, same drive position. Try and mount it and
read it.
 
Bob said:
Actually that was a minimal machine someone else suggested. I am
thinking about a 500 MHz K6-II machine running Win2K with 384 MB.

The only

I do not plan to record TV on the computer.


Thanks for the info.

There's one problem with the 9600 All-In-Wonder--it's the only board in the
All-In-Wonder series that has two VGA outputs but they got that by removing
any DVI capability. If HDTV is in your future then you're likely going to
miss the DVI.
 
Bob said:
I want to be sure I understand what you are saying. I have two drives
in the mirror configuration. I stop the machine, remove one drive and
replace it with a third drive, put the second drive on the shelf. Why
would I need a "triple mirror" - and exactly what is such a thing?

You have two drives in the machine, permanently mirrored, so that if you
lose one you haven't lost anything. You have a third drive that you mirror
to the first two that you store on a shelf for backup in case something
eats the mirrored pair. If you remove the mirror drive and replace it
there's a time while the mirror is rebuilding that you aren't mirrored--if
your machine gets very low traffic so the cost of lost data if the main
drive fails during the remirror is minor then it's an acceptable risk. If
it's a production server then that risk is unacceptable.

Incidentally, there's another option with backups. Use a mirrored pair with
a third drive to which you image the contents of the mirror. The image
will be compressed so will typically be about half the size of the actual
stored data, can be easily restored (Drive Image has a DOS-based utility
that allows the image to be restored with nothing more than the drive and a
boot diskette), and it's possible to retrieve individual files or
directories from the image.

Since you're running networked it might not even be necessary to have the
third drive, just image across the wire to another machine.
 
Compaq SmartArray and
Compaq Fiber Channel controllers can do this. Guess I'm supposed to call
them HP now? Old habits die hard.

Compaq maintains a separate business presence although

www.compaq.com --> h18000.www1.hp.com
But I would not rule out that perhaps newer cards can. If I had to pick one
that might be able to do it, I'd pick the ATA RAID cards from 3Ware, because
they are the "high-end" of ATA RAID controllers and seem to have the most
features and best support. 3Ware are the ones I'd want if I could afford
them. They've also been doing ATA RAID longer than Adaptec.

I just wrote 3Ware sales asking them.
My next choice would be Adaptec, because they tend to have a bit more support
than the rest.
Set up channel 0 for RAID 1, set up channel 1 for RAID 1. Leave 2 disks in
Channel 0. Pull all disks from channel 1, leave it empty. Pull a disk from
channel 0. Put it in Channel 1, same drive position. Try and mount it and
read it.

Is there any reason in principle why that would not work? After all
you do have Channel 1 set up for RAID, so you would think that the
card would deal with the archive disk properly. I assume the card will
allow you to put only 1 disk in a RAID-1 Channel.


--

Map Of The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy:
http://www.freewebs.com/vrwc/

"You can all go to hell, and I will go to Texas."
--David Crockett
 
(e-mail address removed) (Bob) wrote in
Is there any reason in principle why that would not work? After all
you do have Channel 1 set up for RAID, so you would think that the
card would deal with the archive disk properly. I assume the card will
allow you to put only 1 disk in a RAID-1 Channel.

Other than poor bios firmware or driver, I can't think of a reason why it
should not work. But I've run into it myself and you may find others who
have too, with the first sets of ATA RAID cards. Maybe it's different now
that things have matured somewhat?

The cards will allow you to put only 1 disk in a RAID-1 configured channel.
But for the initial configuration, every card I've ever used needs two
actuall disks in there for you to set up the initial config. It won't let
you configure a channel as Raid-1 if bot drives are not present. Once that
config is saved it should be business as usuall.
 
@news2.newsguy.com:
r the info.
There's one problem with the 9600 All-In-Wonder--it's the only board in the
All-In-Wonder series that has two VGA outputs but they got that by removing
any DVI capability. If HDTV is in your future then you're likely going to
miss the DVI.

Yeah, that's one area where ATI seems a bit behind NVIDIA as far as features
go. Like you said, from what I've read, the 9600 is the only RADEON series
with dual display ability. But it looses DVI. My old Ti4200 has both dual
display and DVI, the second display can be DVI, VGA, S Video, or Composite.
At the moment it's going to my TV as composite. They just give you an S-
Video to Composite convertor cable. For VGA, I think it's DVI to VGA
convertor.

But I do miss the mpeg / dvd quality of the ATI cards, I think it's smoother
and looks better than NVIDIA.

All this stuff is pretty cheap compared to the price of large flat panel
displays!
 
(e-mail address removed) (Bob) wrote in


Other than poor bios firmware or driver, I can't think of a reason why
it should not work. But I've run into it myself and you may find others
who have too, with the first sets of ATA RAID cards. Maybe it's
different now that things have matured somewhat?

I just found out why it might not work, following another thread in this
forum. It mentions that some ATA RAID conrollers, particularly ones embedded
in motherboards, only support a single RAID-1 array, not two (one per
channel).

So the first thing to confirm for any controller is if will allow two RAID1
arrays, not just one.
 
Mr. Grinch said:
@news2.newsguy.com:
r the info.

Yeah, that's one area where ATI seems a bit behind NVIDIA as far as
features
go. Like you said, from what I've read, the 9600 is the only RADEON
series
with dual display ability.

The 9600 is the only All-In-Wonder that has dual VGA. Every All-In-Wonder
is not a Radeon and every Radeon is not an All-In-Wonder. Every Radeon
board that I have ever seen that is not an All-In-Wonder has dual display
capability and the more recent ones have TV-out. However ATI reserves dual
DVI for their workstation boards.
But it looses DVI. My old Ti4200 has both
dual display and DVI, the second display can be DVI, VGA, S Video, or
Composite.
At the moment it's going to my TV as composite. They just give you an S-
Video to Composite convertor cable. For VGA, I think it's DVI to VGA
convertor.

So? No different from my old first generation Radeon board.
 
The 9600 is the only All-In-Wonder that has dual VGA. Every All-In-Wonder
is not a Radeon and every Radeon is not an All-In-Wonder. Every Radeon
board that I have ever seen that is not an All-In-Wonder has dual display
capability and the more recent ones have TV-out. However ATI reserves dual
DVI for their workstation boards.

Understood. Thanks for the clarification.
 
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