NAS Backup Fireproof Storage

[andy_b]

Hi,

I currently in the process of creating a backup solution for the
company I work involve, using xxcopy as the basis for it.

I am backing up to a Thecus N2100 data storage unit containing a 400GB
hard disk, which is basically a network storage device.

Does anyone know if it is possible to get a fireproof storage box that
would encase the NAS box I am using? I can find lots of fireproof
storage for media and even purpose built fireproof storage units, but
no units that encase my NAS and allow power cables etc to be run to it.

Anyone know if it is even possible to buy units like this?

Kind Regards

Andrew (UK)

 

[Arno Wagner]

Hi,

I currently in the process of creating a backup solution for the
company I work involve, using xxcopy as the basis for it.

I am backing up to a Thecus N2100 data storage unit containing a 400GB
hard disk, which is basically a network storage device.

Does anyone know if it is possible to get a fireproof storage box that
would encase the NAS box I am using? I can find lots of fireproof
storage for media and even purpose built fireproof storage units, but
no units that encase my NAS and allow power cables etc to be run to it.

Anyone know if it is even possible to buy units like this?

Kind Regards

Andrew (UK)

I don't think you can buy them. If you can, your best bet
is to ask manufacturers of conventional fireproof data-safes.

But any decent metal workshop should be able to modify a standard one
for you by drilling some holes in the back. Don't make the holes too
large. Run a silicone-insulated cable in there for power and use a
fireproof network cable. Seal the holes with fireproof insulation
rock-wool or fireproof foam (the type that is used to seal holes in
walls).

Then you need to be concerned about heat from the NAS. If the safe is
large enough, you should be fine, but by all means take measurements
and make sure.

BTW, with the cost for the safe, you should at least put the
data on a RAID1 or better on two independent disks.

Arno

 

[Michael Daly]

Does anyone know if it is possible to get a fireproof storage box that
would encase the NAS box I am using? I can find lots of fireproof
storage for media and even purpose built fireproof storage units, but
no units that encase my NAS and allow power cables etc to be run to it.

It might be easier to put the unit in a closet or room that is fireproofed to an
acceptable standard. That would allow you to take advantage of existing methods
of ensuring the area maintains a proper temperature in normal use etc. Existing
building codes allow for standardized fireproof doors, electrical runs,
ventilation, etc. The challenge is finding a contractor that you can trust to
do this right.

Mike

 

[Rod Speed]

andy_b wrote

It might be easier to put the unit in a closet or room that is fireproofed to an acceptable
standard.

That isnt likely to be that great if the entire place burns down.

I'd personally drill a couple of holes in a decent fireproof datasafe as well.

That would allow you to take advantage of existing methods of ensuring the area maintains a proper
temperature in normal use etc. Existing building codes allow for standardized fireproof doors,
electrical runs, ventilation, etc. The challenge is finding a contractor that you can trust to do
this right.

The first para makes it sound like he might be doing that at home
or something close, and so that might not be too economically viable.

 

[Jesco Lincke]

Hi,

I currently in the process of creating a backup solution for the
company I work involve, using xxcopy as the basis for it.

I am backing up to a Thecus N2100 data storage unit containing a 400GB
hard disk, which is basically a network storage device.

Does anyone know if it is possible to get a fireproof storage box that
would encase the NAS box I am using? I can find lots of fireproof
storage for media and even purpose built fireproof storage units, but
no units that encase my NAS and allow power cables etc to be run to it.

Anyone know if it is even possible to buy units like this?

Kind Regards

Andrew (UK)

Considering the price you're looking at for the hardware alone and also
the amount of data you want to save (400GB max?), have you thought about
offsite backup services? Or are we talking extra-sensitive data here?

Jesco

 

[Michael Daly]

That isnt likely to be that great if the entire place burns down.

No safe will survive those conditions anyway - at least not the contents.

I'd personally drill a couple of holes in a decent fireproof datasafe as well.

If you drill a hole in a data safe, the fire will enter through the hole. In a
real fire, the temps hit four digits soon enough and will burn out any wires
(power, LAN etc) going through the hole. Once that happens, the hole will act
like a pinhole lens and IR energy will set fire to anything inside. This is how
fires can spread in high-rise construction and through-floor holes are verboten
by most modern fire codes without special construction to avoid fire spread.

Even if the fire can't penetrate the hole, the temps inside the box will melt
anything inside. The only way to avoid this would be to make the insulation
out of several inches of the same stuff as used on the outside of the space
shuttle. However, there is plenty of evidence for what happens if there's a
hole in that stuff.

The first para makes it sound like he might be doing that at home
or something close, and so that might not be too economically viable.

He said in the original post that it's for a company. If he thinks he's going
to get anything more than about an hour's fire resistance (closet approach)
against a fire that's put out in a timely manner, he's dreaming. He'd have to
insist on water sprinklers in the closet to control temps. If he had an
completely separate hardware room, he could use halon, but that would only deal
with fires in the room and not fires around the room that are persistent.

The only real data security available is frequent backups stored off-site.

Mike

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

No safe will survive those conditions anyway - at least not the contents.

That is just plain wrong. It aint as black and white as that.

If you drill a hole in a data safe, the fire will enter through the hole.

Not if you do that properly.

In a real fire, the temps hit four digits soon enough and will
burn out any wires (power, LAN etc) going through the hole.

Wrong again. It will certainly burn out the wiring that is outside the hole,
but it wont burn out the wiring in the hole or inside the fireproof safe.

Once that happens, the hole will act like a pinhole lens

Fantasy. There will be no hole.

and IR energy will set fire to anything inside.

Another fantasy even if there is a small hole.

This is how fires can spread in high-rise construction

No it isnt.

and through-floor holes are verboten by most modern fire codes without special construction to
avoid fire spread.

Pity those are nothing like a minimum sized hole in a fire proof safe.

Even if the fire can't penetrate the hole, the temps inside the box will melt anything inside.

Wrong again. Its called a fire proof data safe for a reason.

Using that mindlessly silly line, there would be no such
thing as a fire proof data safe and there obvious are.

The only way to avoid this would be to make the insulation out of several inches of the same stuff
as used on the outside of the space shuttle.

It isnt only used on the outside of the space shuttle, its
widely used as insulation on high temperature ovens and
even stuff as basic as heatbanks, off peak storage heaters.

And the temperatures that the outside of the space shuttle
sees on reentry are much higher than you get in a house fire.

However, there is plenty of evidence for what happens if there's a hole in that stuff.

Have fun explaining what works fine with
high temperature ovens and heat banks.

Even when you open the door with a high temperature oven,
a VASTLY bigger hole than you would ever get with a minimum
sized hole in a fireproof safe for the power and data cables,
you dont in fact see the room that the high temperature oven
is in catch fire whenever the door is opened. Funny that.

He said in the original post that it's for a company.

Doesnt meant that its at the company premisis.

If he thinks he's going to get anything more than about an hour's fire resistance (closet
approach) against a fire that's put out in a timely manner, he's dreaming.

If you're actually stupid enough to believe that a decent fire
proof data safe cant do any better than the closet approach
you are obviously completely off with the fairys, as usual.

He'd have to insist on water sprinklers in the closet to control temps.

Sprinklers arent there to control temps, they are there to
stop the fire as soon as practical, before it takes hold.

If he had an completely separate hardware room, he could use halon,

Doesnt need to be a full room.

but that would only deal with fires in the room and not fires around the room that are persistent.

Still perfectly viable to use the sort of high temperate insulation
that is used with high temperature ovens and heatbanks.

That isnt even all that expensive.

The only real data security available is frequent backups stored off-site.

Have fun explaining fire proof data safes.

 

[Michael Daly]

Wrong again. It will certainly burn out the wiring that is outside the hole,
but it wont burn out the wiring in the hole or inside the fireproof safe.

You're being wildy optimistic.

Another fantasy even if there is a small hole.


No it isnt.

Having spent years as a civil engineer before getting into computers, I know for
a fact that this is true. I've got far more training in designing fire safety
into buildings than you'll ever pretend to have.

There are well-documented cases of fires spreading through holes drilled and
filled with telephone wires. A Cat5 data cable is trivially different from a
Cat 3 telco line when it comes to fire resistance. Even plenum rated Cat5 won't
hold up.

Pity those are nothing like a minimum sized hole in a fire proof safe.

Prove it.

Wrong again. Its called a fire proof data safe for a reason.

Using that mindlessly silly line, there would be no such
thing as a fire proof data safe and there obvious are.

Nothing is "fire proof". There are varying degrees of fire resistance and
making holes in a little box is not going to make it fire proof. No matter how
airtight a box, you still have to contend with the fact that eventually the
insulation lets the heat in.

Even when you open the door with a high temperature oven,
a VASTLY bigger hole than you would ever get with a minimum
sized hole in a fireproof safe for the power and data cables,
you dont in fact see the room that the high temperature oven
is in catch fire whenever the door is opened. Funny that.

That's the difference between a pinhole lens and a big hole. Surprise!

Sprinklers arent there to control temps, they are there to
stop the fire as soon as practical, before it takes hold.

And they can be used to control temps in such a room. Try to keep the temps
down with any other means.

Doesnt need to be a full room.

How do you contain halon in a half room?

The only way halon is useful is if the area protected is substantial in size.
Otherwise, the heat buildup will cause hardware damage. You don't seem to
realize the temperatures that are reached in building fires.


BTW Your obnoxious responses to everyone you disagree with is rather childish.
Grow up.

Mike

 

[Jesco Lincke]

That is just plain wrong. It aint as black and white as that.



Not if you do that properly.


Wrong again. It will certainly burn out the wiring that is outside the hole,
but it wont burn out the wiring in the hole or inside the fireproof safe.


Fantasy. There will be no hole.


Another fantasy even if there is a small hole.


No it isnt.


Pity those are nothing like a minimum sized hole in a fire proof safe.


Wrong again. Its called a fire proof data safe for a reason.

Using that mindlessly silly line, there would be no such
thing as a fire proof data safe and there obvious are.


It isnt only used on the outside of the space shuttle, its
widely used as insulation on high temperature ovens and
even stuff as basic as heatbanks, off peak storage heaters.

And the temperatures that the outside of the space shuttle
sees on reentry are much higher than you get in a house fire.


Have fun explaining what works fine with
high temperature ovens and heat banks.

Even when you open the door with a high temperature oven,
a VASTLY bigger hole than you would ever get with a minimum
sized hole in a fireproof safe for the power and data cables,
you dont in fact see the room that the high temperature oven
is in catch fire whenever the door is opened. Funny that.



Doesnt meant that its at the company premisis.


If you're actually stupid enough to believe that a decent fire
proof data safe cant do any better than the closet approach
you are obviously completely off with the fairys, as usual.


Sprinklers arent there to control temps, they are there to
stop the fire as soon as practical, before it takes hold.


Doesnt need to be a full room.


Still perfectly viable to use the sort of high temperate insulation
that is used with high temperature ovens and heatbanks.

That isnt even all that expensive.


Have fun explaining fire proof data safes.

All fire proof data stores I know of are 100% closed environments -
insulated safeboxes.

I would very much like to see an example of a fireproof drive case which
offers full fire protection while connected and operational...

Really, I'm curious. Do you have a link?

Jesco

 

[Al Dykes]

No safe will survive those conditions anyway - at least not the contents.


If you drill a hole in a data safe, the fire will enter through the hole. In a
real fire, the temps hit four digits soon enough and will burn out any wires
(power, LAN etc) going through the hole. Once that happens, the hole will act

There is no such thing as "Fireproof". There is time at temperature
ratings. 2 hours is a good number. If the fire department doesn't
have things under control in that time, you've got to fall back on
your business loss insurance.

Any hole can be sealed with the correct application of fire block to
withstand a 2 hour rule, but you need some specific information.

IMO, if you put an Acme Safe in a wood or oil fire with direct contact
all around, for two hours, whatever was inside would be heated in
excess of the melting point of solder. That would kind of suck for
electronic equipment.

Office safes are rated to keep paper documents below the temperature
of combustion for whatever hours it says on the name plate.

 

[Arno Wagner]

There is no such thing as "Fireproof". There is time at temperature
ratings. 2 hours is a good number. If the fire department doesn't
have things under control in that time, you've got to fall back on
your business loss insurance.

Actually these things are rated as how long they can keep below
a certain temperature. Note that this is higher for document
safes, since paper can withstand higher temperatures.

Any hole can be sealed with the correct application of fire block to
withstand a 2 hour rule, but you need some specific information.

Indeed. And the correct cables. They do exist. There is also
specific fire-suppression foam that is used to seal of cables
runnign through walls.

IMO, if you put an Acme Safe in a wood or oil fire with direct contact
all around, for two hours, whatever was inside would be heated in
excess of the melting point of solder. That would kind of suck for
electronic equipment.

Office safes are rated to keep paper documents below the temperature
of combustion for whatever hours it says on the name plate.

It needs to be a safe rated for data carriers. And the running of
the cabless needs to be done by somebody that knows what they
are doing.

Here is another solution I found: Apparently there are data safes with
power-connectors inside. You can then run the data connection in there
with a powerline adapter. That would mean no tampering with the
fireproofing by the manufactuere. Actually this may be the perfect
solution!

If money is not an issue, it seems you can even buy fireproofed
USB drives: http://www.klsecurity.com/schwab_datafortress.htm

Arno

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

All fire proof data stores I know of are 100% closed environments - insulated safeboxes.

What you know of is completely irrelevant.

I would very much like to see an example of a fireproof drive case
which offers full fire protection while connected and operational...

Consider what would happen if you take a took a high
temperature furnace, and didnt turn it on. Put the NAS inside
that. Thats obviously going to survive a decent fire fine.

Really, I'm curious. Do you have a link?

Dont need one, that example above would obviously work well enough.

 

[Rod Speed]

There is no such thing as "Fireproof". There is time at temperature
ratings. 2 hours is a good number. If the fire department doesn't
have things under control in that time, you've got to fall back on
your business loss insurance.

Any hole can be sealed with the correct application of fire block to
withstand a 2 hour rule, but you need some specific information.

IMO, if you put an Acme Safe in a wood or oil fire with direct contact
all around, for two hours, whatever was inside would be heated in
excess of the melting point of solder. That would kind of suck for
electronic equipment.

Yes, but if you take a high temperature furnace, dont
turn it on, put the hard drive inside that, it will hand the
2-3 hours fine with no damage to the drive inside it.

So clearly its possible to construct something that will perform just as well.

Office safes are rated to keep paper documents below the temperature
of combustion for whatever hours it says on the name plate.

There's plenty of UL 3 hour fire rated data safes around.

No big deal to have it continue to run inside that, particularly
if its got remote shutdown and wake on lan etc.

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

You're being wildy optimistic.

Nope, we know what happens with wiring in buildings that burn.

Having spent years as a civil engineer before getting into computers, I know for a fact that this
is true.

No you dont, and you cant explain the effect you dont get
with high temperature ovens when you open the door either.

I've got far more training in designing fire safety into buildings than you'll ever pretend to
have.

You have absolutely no way of knowing what I have.

And even someone as stupid as you doesnt need 'training' on
something as basic as the silly claim you made about IR 'pinhole
lenses' when even the most basic consideration of what happens
with high temperature furnaces doesnt produce that effect.

VERY basic engineering in fact.

There are well-documented cases of fires spreading through holes drilled and filled with telephone
wires.

But not a single hole small enough for a Cat5 cable thru
a hole in the decent insulation seen with a fire proof safe.

A Cat5 data cable is trivially different from a Cat 3 telco line when it comes to fire resistance.

Yes, but there is the tiny matter of the difference between
a single hole just big enough for a single Cat5 and a much
bigger hole used to feed a much bigger multicore cable thru.

Even plenum rated Cat5 won't hold up.

Bullshit when its thru a minimum hole in a
fire rated wall done as per the standards.

Prove it.

Just did with the furnace door.

Nothing is "fire proof". There are varying degrees of fire resistance

Duh. And a 3 hour fire rating is all you need for a house.

and making holes in a little box is not going to make it fire proof. No matter how airtight a box,
you still have to contend
with the fact that eventually the insulation lets the heat in.

Eventually is completely irrelevant, all you need is
long enough till the apes with fire hoses show up.

That's the difference between a pinhole lens and a big hole.

There is no 'lens' and basic physic shows
that **** all energy gets thru a pinhole.

And even if you had a pinhole lens, and you dont, all that
would produce is an image of the fire outside that hole.

Its completely trivial to prove that **** all energy gets thru
a pinhole, by putting a plate in front of that open door.
You wouldnt even burn your hand if you put it a bit away
from the hole, let alone see the room catch fire when you did.

You get FAR more IR energy thru the open door than you
will ever get with a pinhole, and that clearly doesnt set fire
to the room the furnace is in when the door is opened.

You've just made a VERY spectacular fool of yourself and
you should do the decent thing and turn in whatever clearly
worthless paper you got at the end of that 'training', you
clearly dont have a ****ing clue about the most basic physics.

And they can be used to control temps in such a room.

But they arent in practice.

Try to keep the temps down with any other means.

Thats done by the apes with fire hoses that show up in
****ing great trucks with sirens wailing when it turns out
that the sprinklers didnt stop the fire from getting going.

How do you contain halon in a half room?

Just a small cabinet sized housing is all you need.

The only way halon is useful is if the area protected is substantial in size.

Wrong again. Its main purpose is to put out the initial
combustion in situations where sprinklers are undesirable.

Otherwise, the heat buildup will cause hardware damage. You don't seem to realize the
temperatures that are reached in building fires.

Wrong again, they are clearly spelt out in the
requirements for fire rated data safes etc.

BTW Your obnoxious responses to everyone you disagree with is rather childish.

Your desperate attempts to bullshit your way out of your predicament in spades.

Grow up.

Any 2 year old could leave that for dead. Get on to help you before commenting
again, if anyone is actually stupid enough to let you anywhere near one.

Rule of Holes. When you are in one, STOP DIGGING.

 

[Michael Daly]

No you dont, and you cant explain the effect you dont get
with high temperature ovens when you open the door either.

I have a copy of "Measures for Fire Safety in High Buildings", part of
Supplement No. 3 of the National Building Code of Canada right here and it says
you're wrong. You haven't got a clue how fires behave in buildings and your
ranting proves it well enough to me.

You have absolutely no way of knowing what I have.

Based on the way you respond to posts, I know you have serious psychological
problems.

Just because you keep saying I'm wrong doesn't make me wrong or you right.

Cheers,

 

[Arno Wagner]

Rod Speed wrote:

No safe will survive those conditions anyway - at least not the contents.

If you drill a hole in a data safe, the fire will enter through the hole.

Well, it is probably not as simple as that. But smoke might get in and
that is pretty bad too. So fireproof foam or the like is definitely
required. The cables need to be fireproof as well.

Arno

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

And completely trivial to do Cat5 and power thru a
high temperature insulation rated fire rated wall too.

I have a copy of "Measures for Fire Safety in High Buildings", part of Supplement No. 3 of the
National Building Code of Canada right here and it says you're wrong.

No it doesnt. In spades with the furnace door effect.

You haven't got a clue how fires behave in buildings

You cant even manage to grasp even the most basic physics
like that terminally silly howler that the room the furnace is
in wont be affected by opening the furnace door, but will
go up in flames if you put a sheet of high temperature
insulation with a pinhole in it in place of the door.

and your ranting proves it well enough to me.

You have always been, and always will be, completely and
utterly irrelevant. In spades when you made such a spectacular
fool of yourself with your terminally silly pinhole claim.

Based on the way you respond to posts, I know you have serious psychological problems.

Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

Just because you keep saying I'm wrong doesn't make me wrong or you right.

Indeed, but even someone as stupid as you can grasp what
would happen with that pinhole test with a furnace and even
you have noticed what a spectacular fool you have made of
yourself and we have all noticed that you are desperately
attempting to bullshit your way out of your predicament now.

Fire rated hard drives ARE BUYABLE NOW.

Rule of Holes. When you are in one STOP DIGGING.

 

[Arno Wagner]

You're being wildy optimistic.

With the righ cabeling and fireproof foam as sealant, not really.
Fireproof cabeling will not "burn though" and cost is not an issue
with the cabeling, since you only need a meter or so. This may even
work without the foam, since there is no air-draft into the safe.

Still, it would be better to get a data-safe that has at least
power cabeling already running into it (data via power-line then),
since that would mean no need to compromise the seal by the
manufacturer in the first place.

Arno

 

[Al Dykes]

FWIW, A google for "nema fireproof enclosure" gets more hits than I
figured it would. Here's one

http://www.uptime4u.com/nema_enclosures.php

(For the UK folks, "NEMA" is National Electrical Manufacturers
Association, and is shorthand to all sorts of boxes used in electrical
and telecom construction. Givena NEMA part number for something, I'm
sure something in EU standards can be found.

 

[Rod Speed]

FWIW, A google for "nema fireproof enclosure"
gets more hits than I figured it would.

Yeah, me too.

I'm not surprised they are available tho, its completely trivial to do,
just have the wire go thru very high temp insulation. That stuff is all
over the place, in furnaces and even domestic stuff like heatbanks.