My opinion

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I don't think you'd be an "MVP" in this group very long if you didn't
say that.


First of all, there's no such thing as an MVP "in this group." I am a
Windows Shell/User MVP and I post in whatever newsgroups I wish to; as
it happens I post in both the Windows XP and Vista groups.

Second, my opinions are my own, and they aren't dictated to me by
Microsoft or anyone else. As a single example of that, as I've posted
in these newsgroups for years (as an MVP), I prefer WordPerfect to
Microsoft Word. I'm sure Microsoft would prefer my preferences to be
the other way around, but nobody from Microsoft has ever complained
about it, or remotely suggested that I keep my views to myself.

My opinion of Vista is an honest one.

Vista really is a let down, considering how long it was in
development, and how much it promised.


You are entitled to that viewpoint. Although I don't like everything
in Vista, and wish it were even better than it is, by and large I'm
very happy with it.

I know some MVPs who have tried Vista and went back to Windows XP.
That's fine; that's their prerogative. I tried Vista and stayed with
it because I like it. Nobody told me I had to try it, nobody told that
once I tried it I had to keep it, nobody told me I had to participate
in the Vista newsgroups. Windows XP will be around for years to come,
and I'm sure that if I didn't like Vista I could have continued to
post only in the XP newsgroups and be reawarded.
 
Eniko said:
To whom may it concern

I bought a new laptop and I couldn`t choose my operation system.


Actually, you could have. You simply chose not to do business with a
vendor who offered the option of selecting the OS.

I have
Vista which is the worst operation system I have ever seen.


This must be your first computer, then....

You never know
when it is going to crash but when does, you can`t find solution or any help.


If a brand new computer with a factory installed OS is crashing, you
have precisely one place to turn for assistance: The manufacturer.
Contact Tech Support before your warranty expires.
- I have 15000 emails I can`t delete from Windows Mail
- Media Player is only working when it wants. And when it works...
- Other programs stop to work without error messages (iTunes, Quicktime,
PhotoBase...)
- IE7 crash whenever thinks it is a good time
How dare you let Vista in the shops and people can`t choose XP or other
operation systems. People deserve the choice, esp. when you are not helping
at all.

Your not bothering to shop around or select another vendor does not
equate with anyone forcing Vista upon you. Instead, *you* select Vista
by not looking for alternative vendors.


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. -Bertrand Russell
 
First of all, there's no such thing as an MVP "in this group." I am a
Windows Shell/User MVP and I post in whatever newsgroups I wish to; as
it happens I post in both the Windows XP and Vista groups.

Maybe I should of said: you probably wouldn't be na MVP if you didn't
help promote Vista.
Second, my opinions are my own, and they aren't dictated to me by
Microsoft or anyone else. As a single example of that, as I've posted
in these newsgroups for years (as an MVP), I prefer WordPerfect to
Microsoft Word. I'm sure Microsoft would prefer my preferences to be
the other way around, but nobody from Microsoft has ever complained
about it, or remotely suggested that I keep my views to myself.

My opinion of Vista is an honest one.

Ok. Fair enough.

Although anyone I know who can tell a taskbar from a tasktray that has
spent serious time with Vista is just plain disgusted by it. Yeah, sure,
one cna get used to it and make due, but I ask once again, why should we
have to jump through hoops to be Microsoft's beta testers?

For that matter, why are we paying so much money for a Beta grade
product? Sometimes it almost seems right to grab an install disc and
hunt down an activation crack. I for one am sick and tired of betas
being pushed as full releases when the yare far from it. This applies to
many softwares out there.

-saran
 
Mike said:
Some programs are written with an OS identifier which prevents use in
any other OS.. it is a ploy used to ensure new sales of the
'compatible' version..

More like a ploy to get people ot upgrade. When there is no technical
limitation preventing the game from running, but rather a forced one,
this really seems unfair. It's all about making more money off of
general consumers, and in the case of Vista, trying to foce us to buy
into an OS that wants to limit what we can do with certain forms of
media (video, audio, etc) we purchase, and almost forces us to buy all
new hardware too, which mainly comes from Vista's bloat, and "newer"
version of existing applications that worked perfectly fine before, but
inexplicably take up so much more memory. WHAT reason is there for that
if not to make more and more money of general consumers in the computer
sector?

-saran
 
Maybe I should of said: you probably wouldn't be na MVP if you didn't
help promote Vista.

Maybe you should google to find out what a MVP is awarded for, it takes
a LOT more than being Pro MS.

--

Leythos
- Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
- Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"
(e-mail address removed) (remove 999 for proper email address)
 
Saran

In your world, there would be no progress.. everybody would have to work for
free, and quite how they would live is obviously something you have failed
to consider, except for your own case. No doubt you expect to be paid for
work done..

Latest reports for Vista are very good, even for gamers it seems, although
video drivers are still letting the side down a little. Only the oldest
hardware, or where a hardware manufacturer flatly refuses to provide free
fixes for Vista, doesn't work. The same applies to software.

If you do not like the way it all works, you are free to switch to open
source for your OS and applications, or you can buy a Mac.


Saran said:
More like a ploy to get people ot upgrade. When there is no technical
limitation preventing the game from running, but rather a forced one, this
really seems unfair. It's all about making more money off of general
consumers, and in the case of Vista, trying to foce us to buy into an OS
that wants to limit what we can do with certain forms of media (video,
audio, etc) we purchase, and almost forces us to buy all new hardware too,
which mainly comes from Vista's bloat, and "newer" version of existing
applications that worked perfectly fine before, but inexplicably take up
so much more memory. WHAT reason is there for that if not to make more and
more money of general consumers in the computer sector?

-saran

--


Mike Hall
MS MVP Windows Shell/User
http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/
 
Maybe you should google to find out what a MVP is awarded for, it takes
a LOT more than being Pro MS.

ROTFLAMO!

You've seen some of the prize MVPs that post here? Elmer Fudd knows
more about computers.
 
Maybe I should of said: you probably wouldn't be na MVP if you didn't
help promote Vista.

They don't like to hear that.

The fact is MVPs get loads of free Microsoft crap. They then feel
beholding to the boys of Redmond and never dare speak frankly out of
fear of the gravy train stopping.
 
Mike said:
Saran

In your world, there would be no progress..

Why put words in my mouth? I am all about progress. I just consider
Vista to be akin to trying to take a step forward, but ending up
stumbling backwards. Progress would mean LESS hardware and software
issues. Progress means LESS restrictions with what we can do with
content on out systems. Progress means faster operations, and not
upgrading for the sake of satisfying grossly inflated hardware
requirements.

I'd boil progress in OS making to be some what of the following: faster,
easier to use, fewer compatibility problems, eschewing big brother.

Instead I see an OS that's inflated unnecessarily, and a puppet platform
for the big media industries to clamp down on what we can do with
content we purchase. How can anyone call this progress? Eye candy is NOT
progress. It's a make over (a nice looking one granted), but it doesn't
change the fact that that's all cosmetic, using graphics techniques and
algorithms that have existed for years. It looks good and all, don't get
me wrong, they did a nice job in that respect, but that's not
necessarily what progress is about.
everybody would have to
work for free, and quite how they would live is obviously something
you have failed to consider, except for your own case. No doubt you
expect to be paid for work done..

When I do work, I deliver on my promise, to do what I was paid for. I
don't deliver beta quality goods to my customers. when I service
computers, I do the whole job, I don't stop 3/4 of the way and hand it
back to the customer. When I write code for pay, I make sure it works
and thoroughly test it, rather then making the customer do the testing.
It is the developers duty to test things before shipping to market. Too
many development houses use the excuse of "oh, we'll release patches and
such later on so we don't have to ship a finished product." Severity
varies of course, but it's a common problem overall in this industry.
Latest reports for Vista are very good, even for gamers it seems,
although video drivers are still letting the side down a little. Only
the oldest hardware, or where a hardware manufacturer flatly refuses
to provide free fixes for Vista, doesn't work. The same applies to
software.

Yes, drivers are lacking, but again, I feel I must point out,
considering how long Vista was worked on, considering all the promises,
that pretty much said we'd virtually never have to deal with
hardware/software incompatibilities... this was the big headline in many
early Longhorn previews. With all due respect, I think we got almost the
exact opposite.
If you do not like the way it all works, you are free to switch to
open source for your OS and applications, or you can buy a Mac.

Yes, anyone is, and many are. Some just stick to XP, or 2000, or
whatever. So what? That doesn't change the fact that Microsoft is trying
to ram Vista down our throats, by way of locking certain softwares and
hardwares to be "vista only" when they are perfectly capable of running
on XP and others. I think what angers many people is this lack of
choice.

-saran
 
There is no question of Vista locking hardware.. if the hardware
manufacturers will not release XP drivers for new equipment, take it up with
the hardware manufacturers..

Same for software.. they would never sell new stuff if everything from 15
years ago was still compatible..

No new sales = no new revenue = companies going to the wall..

All basic economics..

Vista is just one part of the original Longhorn project, not all of it..

Had you been around for the release of XP, all that has happened with Vista
is 'déjà vu.. the driver situation for Vista is vastly improved, and most
software is compatible.. there will always be some companies who flatly
refuse to continually support older stuff such that it will continue to run
in any future OS releases.. as I said, take it up with them..

DRM is the work of the entertainment industry.. all but the entertainment
industry would like to see the back of it.. another cause for you..

Complain to the right people and you may get something done..


Saran said:
Why put words in my mouth? I am all about progress. I just consider Vista
to be akin to trying to take a step forward, but ending up stumbling
backwards. Progress would mean LESS hardware and software issues. Progress
means LESS restrictions with what we can do with content on out systems.
Progress means faster operations, and not upgrading for the sake of
satisfying grossly inflated hardware requirements.

I'd boil progress in OS making to be some what of the following: faster,
easier to use, fewer compatibility problems, eschewing big brother.

Instead I see an OS that's inflated unnecessarily, and a puppet platform
for the big media industries to clamp down on what we can do with content
we purchase. How can anyone call this progress? Eye candy is NOT progress.
It's a make over (a nice looking one granted), but it doesn't change the
fact that that's all cosmetic, using graphics techniques and algorithms
that have existed for years. It looks good and all, don't get me wrong,
they did a nice job in that respect, but that's not necessarily what
progress is about.


When I do work, I deliver on my promise, to do what I was paid for. I
don't deliver beta quality goods to my customers. when I service
computers, I do the whole job, I don't stop 3/4 of the way and hand it
back to the customer. When I write code for pay, I make sure it works and
thoroughly test it, rather then making the customer do the testing. It is
the developers duty to test things before shipping to market. Too many
development houses use the excuse of "oh, we'll release patches and such
later on so we don't have to ship a finished product." Severity varies of
course, but it's a common problem overall in this industry.


Yes, drivers are lacking, but again, I feel I must point out, considering
how long Vista was worked on, considering all the promises, that pretty
much said we'd virtually never have to deal with hardware/software
incompatibilities... this was the big headline in many early Longhorn
previews. With all due respect, I think we got almost the exact opposite.


Yes, anyone is, and many are. Some just stick to XP, or 2000, or whatever.
So what? That doesn't change the fact that Microsoft is trying to ram
Vista down our throats, by way of locking certain softwares and hardwares
to be "vista only" when they are perfectly capable of running on XP and
others. I think what angers many people is this lack of choice.

-saran

--


Mike Hall
MS MVP Windows Shell/User
http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/
 
"Saran" complained...
It's a broken OS. It can't properly run half the programs XP or other
recent Windows OSes can. Given how long Vista was in dev theres no excuse
for it.

You mean, given how long Vista code was available to developers, there is no
excuse for hardware and software to not be compatible with Vista. I was
looking at USB network adapters recently, to see if I could spot any "Vista"
stickers yet. I spotted three models with *works with* or "upgradeable to"
Vista, meaning you have to download the drivers seperately, and dozens with
"Now fully compatible with XP" stickers. I guess you weren't around yet back
then, but XP has had compatibility issues with third-party software programs
written for Win95/Win98, too. But, hey, you believe what you want, and I'll
live in reality.
 
Latest reports for Vista are very good, even for gamers it seems, although
video drivers are still letting the side down a little. Only the oldest
hardware, or where a hardware manufacturer flatly refuses to provide free
fixes for Vista, doesn't work. The same applies to software.

Mike, I disagree about Vista. I've been working with computers since the
70's and use to design cards for them in the late 70's and early 80's,
so I know a few things about computers. I currently have about 3000 that
I maintain for clients of all levels.

Vista is not doing well except on Core 2 Duo machines with fast video
cards with 256+ MB RAM on them.

Machines that we've seen with Vista that work "well" actually perform a
LOT better with XP installed on them, almost twice as fast in "feel" and
certainly much faster for any game that requires any power.

I just took another Dual 3Ghz Xeon system with 4GB RAM and a 128MB AGP
Video card, very nice system for all accounts, runs XP, 2003, SQL,
Exchange, etc.... all with very good performance. Installed Vista
Business on it and it crawls, even with indexing stopped, the machine
just crawls - yes, it appears to be video as the reason, getting a 1.0
on the video score, and 5.0+ on all other score items, but the fact
remains that opening Office 2007, Visio 2003, etc... are all slower and
I can actually type faster in Outlook 2007 than it can put it on the
screen - this is not true on a P4/3.2ghz machine running XP....

I've seen no ROI for business to move to Vista, seen no reason to throw
a LOT of money at hardware in order to upgrade home users machines so
that Vista will perform moderately well on their computers, and the fact
that you have to invest in new apps that use your hardware (CD-RW/DVRW,
etc..) means even more money.

Until they fix the performance problems or enough people outgrow
perfectly good performing computers for newer fast ones, there just is
no reason to run Vista.

--

Leythos
- Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
- Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"
(e-mail address removed) (remove 999 for proper email address)
 
There is no question of Vista locking hardware.. if the hardware
manufacturers will not release XP drivers for new equipment, take it up with
the hardware manufacturers..

Same for software.. they would never sell new stuff if everything from 15
years ago was still compatible..

No new sales = no new revenue = companies going to the wall..

All basic economics..

Vista is just one part of the original Longhorn project, not all of it..

Had you been around for the release of XP, all that has happened with Vista
is 'déjà vu.. the driver situation for Vista is vastly improved, and most
software is compatible.. there will always be some companies who flatly
refuse to continually support older stuff such that it will continue to run
in any future OS releases.. as I said, take it up with them..

DRM is the work of the entertainment industry.. all but the entertainment
industry would like to see the back of it.. another cause for you..

Complain to the right people and you may get something done..

Good advice. What's you mama's email address so I can complain to her
about you, her snooty little punk son that loves to pretend he's so
important and in reality is just another blowhard and Microsoft
apologist that keeps trying to sound important because doing that
puffs up his ego so.
 
Saran said:
Maybe I should of said: you probably wouldn't be na MVP if you didn't help
promote Vista.


Ok. Fair enough.

Although anyone I know who can tell a taskbar from a tasktray that has
spent serious time with Vista is just plain disgusted by it. Yeah, sure,
one cna get used to it and make due, but I ask once again, why should we
have to jump through hoops to be Microsoft's beta testers?

For that matter, why are we paying so much money for a Beta grade product?
Sometimes it almost seems right to grab an install disc and hunt down an
activation crack. I for one am sick and tired of betas being pushed as
full releases when the yare far from it. This applies to many softwares
out there.

-saran
No one forced you to buy MS in the first place. Try hard to get over your
hate vendetta about it and then we can all hear less about it.



--
Ian

With patience there is always a way.

Please Reply to Newsgroup so all can read.
Requests for assistance by email can not and will be deleted.
 
Saran said:
Why put words in my mouth? I am all about progress. I just consider Vista
to be akin to trying to take a step forward, but ending up stumbling
backwards. Progress would mean LESS hardware and software issues. Progress
means LESS restrictions with what we can do with content on out systems.
Progress means faster operations, and not upgrading for the sake of
satisfying grossly inflated hardware requirements.

I'd boil progress in OS making to be some what of the following: faster,
easier to use, fewer compatibility problems, eschewing big brother.

Instead I see an OS that's inflated unnecessarily, and a puppet platform
for the big media industries to clamp down on what we can do with content
we purchase. How can anyone call this progress? Eye candy is NOT progress.
It's a make over (a nice looking one granted), but it doesn't change the
fact that that's all cosmetic, using graphics techniques and algorithms
that have existed for years. It looks good and all, don't get me wrong,
they did a nice job in that respect, but that's not necessarily what
progress is about.


When I do work, I deliver on my promise, to do what I was paid for. I
don't deliver beta quality goods to my customers. when I service
computers, I do the whole job, I don't stop 3/4 of the way and hand it
back to the customer. When I write code for pay, I make sure it works and
thoroughly test it, rather then making the customer do the testing. It is
the developers duty to test things before shipping to market. Too many
development houses use the excuse of "oh, we'll release patches and such
later on so we don't have to ship a finished product." Severity varies of
course, but it's a common problem overall in this industry.


Yes, drivers are lacking, but again, I feel I must point out, considering
how long Vista was worked on, considering all the promises, that pretty
much said we'd virtually never have to deal with hardware/software
incompatibilities... this was the big headline in many early Longhorn
previews. With all due respect, I think we got almost the exact opposite.


Yes, anyone is, and many are. Some just stick to XP, or 2000, or whatever.
So what? That doesn't change the fact that Microsoft is trying to ram
Vista down our throats, by way of locking certain softwares and hardwares
to be "vista only" when they are perfectly capable of running on XP and
others. I think what angers many people is this lack of choice.

-saran
Then you had better go back to the pen and paper method cause you have
little patience to learn how to do much more than that.



--
Ian

With patience there is always a way.

Please Reply to Newsgroup so all can read.
Requests for assistance by email can not and will be deleted.
 
No one forced you to buy MS in the first place. Try hard to get over your
hate vendetta about it and then we can all hear less about it.

Oh how sweet, the old nobody forced you to upgrade excuse, what all
fanboys through out when confronted with Vista bugs.
 
Adam said:
Good advice. What's you mama's email address so I can complain to her
about you, her snooty little punk son that loves to pretend he's so
important and in reality is just another blowhard and Microsoft
apologist that keeps trying to sound important because doing that
puffs up his ego so.

That's so self-descriptive as to be frighting!
What an arrogantly stupid POS you are little georgie-boy.
Frank
 
Then you had better go back to the pen and paper method cause you have
little patience to learn how to do much more than that.

You have an idea how ridiculous you moronic fanboys sound?
 
And Windows 2000 performed way better than XP on a machine 'designated for
XP'..

Most new machines are dual core CPU types, but I see that manufacturers keep
the price down by fitting less RAM than they should..

I didn't think that big business was ever too fast upgrading to the latest
technology.. for sure, they run it alongside what they already have, and it
can take two years or more to assess the benefits.. of course, during that
time, the initial problems will have been ironed out.. even so, I have seen
companies still running DOS and Win 3.1 where it has been found cost
effective to leave things as they are..

Video remains an issue regarding overall Vista performance, but drivers are
now being produced for new graphics cards that will score 5 and higher..

Laptop graphics performance, and in fact general all round performance will
be constrained by the ability to keep the system cool enough, thereby having
to stay with lower end hardware options

Remember the good old 5.25 floppies? Then somebody decided to supply
software on 3.5's, so we all bought 3.5 drives.. some gotten caught with
2.88's.. then 100mb ZIP drives.. 650mb CD's.. now 4.3gb DVD's.. certainly,
if one has to upgrade 1000 machines to DVD, there is a cost hit, except that
companies having 1000 machines will feed Vista images down CAT5 cable, so
upgrading older machines to DVD capability is not so important

Vista is improving, and yes, that means it is not perfect but then only
idiots would claim that it or any other OS is perfect..


Leythos said:
Mike, I disagree about Vista. I've been working with computers since the
70's and use to design cards for them in the late 70's and early 80's,
so I know a few things about computers. I currently have about 3000 that
I maintain for clients of all levels.

Vista is not doing well except on Core 2 Duo machines with fast video
cards with 256+ MB RAM on them.

Machines that we've seen with Vista that work "well" actually perform a
LOT better with XP installed on them, almost twice as fast in "feel" and
certainly much faster for any game that requires any power.

I just took another Dual 3Ghz Xeon system with 4GB RAM and a 128MB AGP
Video card, very nice system for all accounts, runs XP, 2003, SQL,
Exchange, etc.... all with very good performance. Installed Vista
Business on it and it crawls, even with indexing stopped, the machine
just crawls - yes, it appears to be video as the reason, getting a 1.0
on the video score, and 5.0+ on all other score items, but the fact
remains that opening Office 2007, Visio 2003, etc... are all slower and
I can actually type faster in Outlook 2007 than it can put it on the
screen - this is not true on a P4/3.2ghz machine running XP....

I've seen no ROI for business to move to Vista, seen no reason to throw
a LOT of money at hardware in order to upgrade home users machines so
that Vista will perform moderately well on their computers, and the fact
that you have to invest in new apps that use your hardware (CD-RW/DVRW,
etc..) means even more money.

Until they fix the performance problems or enough people outgrow
perfectly good performing computers for newer fast ones, there just is
no reason to run Vista.

--

Leythos
- Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
- Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"
(e-mail address removed) (remove 999 for proper email address)

--


Mike Hall
MS MVP Windows Shell/User
http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/
 
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