My case is hot enough to cook a turkey

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Uhhh . . . that's not going to win the prize for Best Analogy of Western
Man. It's going to take measurements to tell if this difference is
significant.

As already written, no, a significant difference does not
require exact numbers, this is pretty much inherant in the
word "significant", that numbers will be needed to instead
show minor differences instead of significant ones. Even a
basic finger-on-the-drive, touch test can discriminate a few
degrees difference.

That measurement might even be a finger-touch test if the
difference is large enough, but intuition tells me that's not going to
be the case.

Intuition or you just refused to learn something? Sideways
drive bays with the small holes reduce airflow through the
bay to about 20% of what it would otherwise have. Don't you
see the significance of this? You literally need a fan
producing several times as much airflow to reach the same
temp. I am not saying a drive will overheat to the point of
failure because of the sideways bay, but it will require
more noise and there is another problem, that the bay
largely blocks the airflow and produces turbulence which
prevents as much air reaching the hard drive and motherboard
chipset heatsink so they too suffer.

It's just a bad idea to turn the drive bay except if you
don't care about noise as much as a minor bit of
convenience. Go ahead and measure these areas, if that's
what it takes... It will vary some per each case and # of
drives.
 
milleron said:
Uhhh . . . that's not going to win the prize for Best Analogy of Western
Man. It's going to take measurements to tell if this difference is
significant. That measurement might even be a finger-touch test if the
difference is large enough, but intuition tells me that's not going to
be the case.

You can read a disk's temperature by using SMART. Speedfan (almico.com) may
be one option in this regard. Even if you don't believe the absolute
reading that SMART delivers, the relative temp difference may be
used to advantage.

Paul
 
Eric Parker said:
news:fe553e29-9594-48e8-b4db-fa6303b6a8d9@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com...


Don't forget, when you have sorted out the cooling to your satisfaction,
stuffing the case back under the desk and tight up against the back wall
will undo all the good work.
 
kony said:
As already written, no, a significant difference does not
require exact numbers, this is pretty much inherant in the
word "significant", that numbers will be needed to instead
show minor differences instead of significant ones. Even a
basic finger-on-the-drive, touch test can discriminate a few
degrees difference.



Intuition or you just refused to learn something? Sideways
drive bays with the small holes reduce airflow through the
bay to about 20% of what it would otherwise have. Don't you
see the significance of this? You literally need a fan
producing several times as much airflow to reach the same
temp. I am not saying a drive will overheat to the point of
failure because of the sideways bay, but it will require
more noise and there is another problem, that the bay
largely blocks the airflow and produces turbulence which
prevents as much air reaching the hard drive and motherboard
chipset heatsink so they too suffer.

It's just a bad idea to turn the drive bay except if you
don't care about noise as much as a minor bit of
convenience. Go ahead and measure these areas, if that's
what it takes... It will vary some per each case and # of
drives.

Sheesh, give it up. You cannot reason through this one by pointing out
that there's a difference in air flow in the two different kinds of
cases. There are too many variables. EVERYone can tell there's a
difference in air flow, but no matter how many times you say it, that
doesn't prove that it makes a significant difference in operating temps
of the drives. It MAY, but the only way you can be sure there's a
significant difference without measurements and numbers is if the
significant difference is SO significant that you can feel it with your
finger in rigs that are otherwise identical.

If everyone used logic like yours, scientific inquiry, indeed, the whole
concept of the scientific method, would come to an end, because you'd
always maintain that you can figure everything out without
experimentation or measurement. Indeed, if turning the drive bay
sideways results in a difference of only a degree or two, which is
entirely possible, then it WOULD make sense to ease construction and
maintenance by turning it sideways.
 
Sheesh, give it up. You cannot reason through this one by pointing
out that there's a difference in air flow in the two different kinds
of cases. There are too many variables. EVERYone can tell there's a
difference in air flow, but no matter how many times you say it, that
doesn't prove that it makes a significant difference in operating
temps of the drives. It MAY, but the only way you can be sure there's
a significant difference without measurements and numbers is if the
significant difference is SO significant that you can feel it with
your finger in rigs that are otherwise identical.

If everyone used logic like yours, scientific inquiry, indeed, the
whole concept of the scientific method, would come to an end, because
you'd always maintain that you can figure everything out without
experimentation or measurement. Indeed, if turning the drive bay
sideways results in a difference of only a degree or two, which is
entirely possible, then it WOULD make sense to ease construction and
maintenance by turning it sideways.

I have a Cooler Master Mystyque case with a sideways drive bay and I can
give you three good reasons that it is a bad idea.

1. I tried two 18 inch IDE cables and neither had enough cabling between
the two Master/Slave connectors to span the distance from the 5.25 inch
DVD burner mounted in the lowest bay slot and the PATA drive in the
sideways mounted top drive bay slot.

2. It limits the amount of room between the drives and the side of the
case. You have to bend the connectors so that they do not touch the side
window if you are fortunate enough to have a connector that *can* be
pushed down away from the window. If you want to add an IDE to SATA
converter or SATA to IDE converter onto the back of the drive you are
really pushing the limited amount of space there. IIRC I was *barely*
able to get a Rosewill IDE to SATA converter to fit between the drive
and side window, but the cables from the converter were pushing against
the window.

3. Cooler Master. I bought the case for the large 2x120 mm fans and the
cooling its name more than subtly implies. I would take a couple of
degrees of cooling even if it was a little more trouble to add/remove the
drives. It seems rather silly to have that nice 120 mm fan directly in
front of hard drive cage and its 'small hole' airflow design.

There are cases out there that have a drive bay in the more typical
orientation. ThermalTake's Tsunami uses a slide out drive bay that is
less than perfect but a great improvement over the Cooler Master
implementation.

I don't mean to pick on Cooler Master as it is a good case. I have tried
a ThermalTake and a Cooler Master and they both have their pluses and
minuses. The sideways mounted drive bay is definitely a minus.
 
Sheesh, give it up. You cannot reason through this one by pointing out
that there's a difference in air flow in the two different kinds of
cases. There are too many variables.

No, there aren't unless you want to try to introduce them.

We can in fact know that there is a substantial decrease in
airflow through the HDD bay if one were to take the exact
same case, with the only change being whether the HDD bay
was the traditional style and surrounded the fan such that
all airflow into the system (note I wrote "ALL") flows
through that bay, versus mounting the bay at 90'.
EVERYone can tell there's a
difference in air flow, but no matter how many times you say it, that
doesn't prove that it makes a significant difference in operating temps
of the drives.

Apples and oranges.

The key is noise reduction. Yes, you can certainly throw
some fans in that produce more noise than the system
otherwise needed to produce, and have cool enough drives
with the rotated bay. That's not the point, there is almost
never a case where you couldn't just keep ramping up fan
speed and/or size and # of fans till some problem was
overcome.

The point is what promotes quiet-> silent operation without
significant temp increase. You can't run a fan at inaudible
noise levels then cut that airflow to a fraction with the
sideways bay without it having an impact on not only HDD
temp but as I already mentioned, video card and chipset
temps.
It MAY, but the only way you can be sure there's a
significant difference without measurements and numbers is if the
significant difference is SO significant that you can feel it with your
finger in rigs that are otherwise identical.

Measurements are a good idea. Even so, a significant
difference is not hard to feel with fingers, because these
temps are in a range inbetween human body temp and the
treshold for pain. If it were a different range it would
indeed be harder to "feel".


If everyone used logic like yours, scientific inquiry, indeed, the whole
concept of the scientific method, would come to an end, because you'd
always maintain that you can figure everything out without
experimentation or measurement. Indeed, if turning the drive bay
sideways results in a difference of only a degree or two, which is
entirely possible, then it WOULD make sense to ease construction and
maintenance by turning it sideways.

Or on the other hand, we have you defending something with
no evidence it doesn't matter. Pot calling kettle black?

Let's reduce this to simplest terms. Do you accept that you
have only a small fraction of total case airflow through the
entirety of the HDD bay when it is turned sideways?

Do you accept that airflow cools drives?

Do you accept that given any particular airflow rate needed
to reach a certain temp, that when you achieve multiple
times as much airflow, you then have sufficient margin to
reduce fan speeds by a large amount?

I never claimed a sideways bay will make hard drives fail
from overheating. I claim it is a compromise that results
in worse cooling efficiency in exchange for a minor ease in
drive removal. Take your pick, if you want the latter
that's fine, but trying to pretend there was no compromise
is silly as the prior design was based around the benefits
as stated... otherwise the bays would've been turned 90' all
along.
 
Pecos said:
I have a Cooler Master Mystyque case with a sideways drive bay and I can
give you three good reasons that it is a bad idea.

1. I tried two 18 inch IDE cables and neither had enough cabling between
the two Master/Slave connectors to span the distance from the 5.25 inch
DVD burner mounted in the lowest bay slot and the PATA drive in the
sideways mounted top drive bay slot.

2. It limits the amount of room between the drives and the side of the
case. You have to bend the connectors so that they do not touch the side
window if you are fortunate enough to have a connector that *can* be
pushed down away from the window. If you want to add an IDE to SATA
converter or SATA to IDE converter onto the back of the drive you are
really pushing the limited amount of space there. IIRC I was *barely*
able to get a Rosewill IDE to SATA converter to fit between the drive
and side window, but the cables from the converter were pushing against
the window.

3. Cooler Master. I bought the case for the large 2x120 mm fans and the
cooling its name more than subtly implies. I would take a couple of
degrees of cooling even if it was a little more trouble to add/remove the
drives. It seems rather silly to have that nice 120 mm fan directly in
front of hard drive cage and its 'small hole' airflow design.

There are cases out there that have a drive bay in the more typical
orientation. ThermalTake's Tsunami uses a slide out drive bay that is
less than perfect but a great improvement over the Cooler Master
implementation.

I don't mean to pick on Cooler Master as it is a good case. I have tried
a ThermalTake and a Cooler Master and they both have their pluses and
minuses. The sideways mounted drive bay is definitely a minus.

I have a case with sideways mounted drives and found no real problems
with it. I use rounded IDE cables and they bent with no problems to fit
to the drives. I am not using any adapters on the back of the drives so
that wasn't a problem. I like the setup as I can pull a drive out very
quickly. I pull off the side panel and the drives slide out, no
fighting to remove the front cover or to remove the drive through the
back of the cage probably removing cables with it.
The case includes 2 fans mounted in front of the drive cage so that the
drives stay cool and there was enough space in the cage so that there
was a couple of blank slots between the drives. In fact I had to do it
this way as the IDE cable wouldn't bend enough to place them above each
other.
 
kony said:
No, there aren't unless you want to try to introduce them.

We can in fact know that there is a substantial decrease in
airflow through the HDD bay if one were to take the exact
same case, with the only change being whether the HDD bay
was the traditional style and surrounded the fan such that
all airflow into the system (note I wrote "ALL") flows
through that bay, versus mounting the bay at 90'.


Apples and oranges.

The key is noise reduction. Yes, you can certainly throw
some fans in that produce more noise than the system
otherwise needed to produce, and have cool enough drives
with the rotated bay. That's not the point, there is almost
never a case where you couldn't just keep ramping up fan
speed and/or size and # of fans till some problem was
overcome.

The point is what promotes quiet-> silent operation without
significant temp increase. You can't run a fan at inaudible
noise levels then cut that airflow to a fraction with the
sideways bay without it having an impact on not only HDD
temp but as I already mentioned, video card and chipset
temps.


Measurements are a good idea. Even so, a significant
difference is not hard to feel with fingers, because these
temps are in a range inbetween human body temp and the
treshold for pain. If it were a different range it would
indeed be harder to "feel".




Or on the other hand, we have you defending something with
no evidence it doesn't matter. Pot calling kettle black?

Let's reduce this to simplest terms. Do you accept that you
have only a small fraction of total case airflow through the
entirety of the HDD bay when it is turned sideways?

Do you accept that airflow cools drives?

Do you accept that given any particular airflow rate needed
to reach a certain temp, that when you achieve multiple
times as much airflow, you then have sufficient margin to
reduce fan speeds by a large amount?

I never claimed a sideways bay will make hard drives fail
from overheating. I claim it is a compromise that results
in worse cooling efficiency in exchange for a minor ease in
drive removal. Take your pick, if you want the latter
that's fine, but trying to pretend there was no compromise
is silly as the prior design was based around the benefits
as stated... otherwise the bays would've been turned 90' all
along.

Hmmm....I think it's a case of what a person is really looking for. There's
no right or wrong -- my last case was an Antec P180, and it had the drives
mounted in a removable drive bay in the standard orientation. Things were
more than a little tight- I wound up breaking the IDE connector off one of
my Maxell drives in the attempt to slide an IDE cable into a tight space. I
was able to repair the drive but the experience wasn't lost on me- i'd never
say accesability was only a minor convienience. Airflow was good, because
right behind the drive bay was a fan sucking air from the front. My present
case is an Enermax Uber Chakra, which is quite a bit different. Unlike the
P180 it isn't designed for silence and is a tad more noisey, and it does
have a side mounted lower drive bay. Moving drives around is almost
effortless, but I think the innards are more cool because there is a honking
big 8 inch fan mounted in the side panel blowing air on the motherboard, and
the drive bays are just behind the open grill. The front fan is blowing air
through the holes in the drive bay and I don't see them having a heat
problem. I may replace the front fan because it doesn't have a speed
control, and I'd like to lower the speed a bit, which would make things even
quieter, but not enough to match the P180. Overall I have no real
complaints, but it really is a choice of what you find important in a world
where you can't have it all in a single package.

-- Grey
 
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