E
Ed
If money is no object I'd go for a AMD FX-51 or FX-53. ;p
Ed
If money is no object I'd go for a AMD FX-51 or FX-53. ;p
Ed
D
DaveW
If you want it 'future-proof' I would wait until this summer to buy, when
the entire architecture of computers is scheduled to change. The current
ATX form-factor will be replaced with the BTX form factor. Hence
PCI-Express will replace PCI slots, new power supplies will be in use, DDR2
RAM will be used, and the next generation of ATI and NVidia cards will be
out which will be 2 to 3 times faster.
Now is NOT a good time to upgrade.
the entire architecture of computers is scheduled to change. The current
ATX form-factor will be replaced with the BTX form factor. Hence
PCI-Express will replace PCI slots, new power supplies will be in use, DDR2
RAM will be used, and the next generation of ATI and NVidia cards will be
out which will be 2 to 3 times faster.
Now is NOT a good time to upgrade.
R
rstlne
DaveW said:
Now is a great time to upgrade
piss poor time to futureproof
G
GW De Lacey
Now is a great time to upgrade
piss poor time to futureproof
Heh - that seems to sum up the tone of this thread.
I'll wait a while, I think.
There are some great recipes here, and I'll certainly keep them for
future reference.
Thanks guys.
E
Ed Forsythe
Amen! What *you* said Phillip 
G
GW De Lacey
I've been mulling over this for a while. It's a rather interesting
idea, and I might pursue it further.
Looking at motherboards for the opteron set-up, the Tyan range looks
interesting. The K8W seems to have everything I need including AGP and
PCIX. I've seen the reviews, and remain naively impressed.
Am I missing anything? Is there a better mb (ASUS perhaps)? Would I be
better off looking at Xeon duals? Does anyone have any experience with
the K8W?
So many questions, so little time.
G
GW De Lacey
Thanks. As I've said, I'm now fairly committed to the idea of dual
processors. I'm leaning a bit toward opteron, basically because of a
suggestion made by another member of this group. I remain a bit
confused at the differences between opty and xeon. I want the best,
but I don't quite know which to choose - they both seem to have
strengths and weaknesses. As I said, my goal is stability combined
with say five years of viable service life. With this in mind, which
dual system is best?
T
Tim
5 years of stability.
1. To get 5 years of stability you will need to allow the system to be
stable.
2. For utmost stability I would go xeon, possibly opteron - not too sure on
the stability stakes there.
3. Will the system be required to run 24 x 7 or will are you simply wanting
a machine that will have a service life of 5 years with combined
reliability? If you envisage 24 x 7 then a dose of reality is required: no
systems run 24 x 7.
4. What will the system do? If you are going to have the system undergoing
perpetual re-configuration, OS upgrades, role changes, new s/w installs, new
h/w installs then forget it.
5. Have you a UPS budgeted?
6. Have you a comprehensive backup system budgeted IE tape BU with quality
tape drive, tapes, off site security?
7. What about physical security? Will th eunit be housed where no one can
tamper with it? Where cleaners won't pull the power plug? Where the unit
will be able to remain for the duration?
8. What skills do you have in running a system to ensure it will remain
stable? OS patching? Routine h/w maintenance? Staff management? Access
control? Scheduling down time? Schedule all maintenance activities?
9. Have you performed a capacity planning exercise: will the proposed system
have adequate grunt for the life you require of it? 5 Years is actually over
what I would recommend - 3 years correlates with the median warrantee
offered by many vendors (OK, so SCSI discs are 5 years) and it is better to
plan for upgrades and obsolescence, than to force yourself to stick with
what you have 2 years beyond what you would like to have it.
10. Are your planning on a resilient RAID config? (RAID 1, 10, or 5?). What
happens to that when you need to extend for unforeseen reasons?
I hope you get the point: that to buy a system for stability is one thing,
but to manage and allow it to be stable is another. Some installations can
achieve years between restarts or any downtime with no real effort, others
are so chaotic that no matter the quality of the hardware purchases the CEO
or someone always wants something fanciful new (EG a computerised penis
enlarger) facility, so OS upgrades, server s/w upgrades, patches, bla bla
bla occur continuously with bouts of system instability due to dodgy drivers
and mismanagement.
FYI: I have a P2B-DS dual P2-400 server with 640MB Ram, a pile of SCSI
discs, 3 SCSI controllers, SCSI Tape, SCSI CD Writer etc etc etc. It is in
the laundry its so noisy & runs 24 x 7 and has done so for over 6 years in
this house. Some of the SCSI discs are SCSI 2, others SCSI 3. The max IO
bandwidth on the system is pathetic. But the system works 24 x 7 & never
crashes. It costs $36 per month in electricity and in USD cost around $9,000
w/s pricing. This unit is getting retrenched any time now with the Windows
2003 server, Exchange, ISA, SQL Server, and other functionality being
transferred onto my 3GHz desktop system which is nowhere as stable and I
wouldn't trust to run 24 x 7. My intention is to get a dual opteron at the
moment when they are a little beafier and more widespread. In the mean time
I have had several other computers - all come and go. This machine started
life with NT4 Workstation, NT4 Server, Windows 2000, and recently Windows
2003. No driver issues worth mentioning (don't expect that over more than 3
years). I had one 2nd hand SCSI disc drive crash on it and that is the total
of hardware issues.
The moral of the story? If you get a stable system then be prepared to see
every cent of the investment in it dissapate in depreciation with near to no
resale value. If not, then upgrade every 3 years and budget on it.
- Tim
1. To get 5 years of stability you will need to allow the system to be
stable.
2. For utmost stability I would go xeon, possibly opteron - not too sure on
the stability stakes there.
3. Will the system be required to run 24 x 7 or will are you simply wanting
a machine that will have a service life of 5 years with combined
reliability? If you envisage 24 x 7 then a dose of reality is required: no
systems run 24 x 7.
4. What will the system do? If you are going to have the system undergoing
perpetual re-configuration, OS upgrades, role changes, new s/w installs, new
h/w installs then forget it.
5. Have you a UPS budgeted?
6. Have you a comprehensive backup system budgeted IE tape BU with quality
tape drive, tapes, off site security?
7. What about physical security? Will th eunit be housed where no one can
tamper with it? Where cleaners won't pull the power plug? Where the unit
will be able to remain for the duration?
8. What skills do you have in running a system to ensure it will remain
stable? OS patching? Routine h/w maintenance? Staff management? Access
control? Scheduling down time? Schedule all maintenance activities?
9. Have you performed a capacity planning exercise: will the proposed system
have adequate grunt for the life you require of it? 5 Years is actually over
what I would recommend - 3 years correlates with the median warrantee
offered by many vendors (OK, so SCSI discs are 5 years) and it is better to
plan for upgrades and obsolescence, than to force yourself to stick with
what you have 2 years beyond what you would like to have it.
10. Are your planning on a resilient RAID config? (RAID 1, 10, or 5?). What
happens to that when you need to extend for unforeseen reasons?
I hope you get the point: that to buy a system for stability is one thing,
but to manage and allow it to be stable is another. Some installations can
achieve years between restarts or any downtime with no real effort, others
are so chaotic that no matter the quality of the hardware purchases the CEO
or someone always wants something fanciful new (EG a computerised penis
enlarger) facility, so OS upgrades, server s/w upgrades, patches, bla bla
bla occur continuously with bouts of system instability due to dodgy drivers
and mismanagement.
FYI: I have a P2B-DS dual P2-400 server with 640MB Ram, a pile of SCSI
discs, 3 SCSI controllers, SCSI Tape, SCSI CD Writer etc etc etc. It is in
the laundry its so noisy & runs 24 x 7 and has done so for over 6 years in
this house. Some of the SCSI discs are SCSI 2, others SCSI 3. The max IO
bandwidth on the system is pathetic. But the system works 24 x 7 & never
crashes. It costs $36 per month in electricity and in USD cost around $9,000
w/s pricing. This unit is getting retrenched any time now with the Windows
2003 server, Exchange, ISA, SQL Server, and other functionality being
transferred onto my 3GHz desktop system which is nowhere as stable and I
wouldn't trust to run 24 x 7. My intention is to get a dual opteron at the
moment when they are a little beafier and more widespread. In the mean time
I have had several other computers - all come and go. This machine started
life with NT4 Workstation, NT4 Server, Windows 2000, and recently Windows
2003. No driver issues worth mentioning (don't expect that over more than 3
years). I had one 2nd hand SCSI disc drive crash on it and that is the total
of hardware issues.
The moral of the story? If you get a stable system then be prepared to see
every cent of the investment in it dissapate in depreciation with near to no
resale value. If not, then upgrade every 3 years and budget on it.
- Tim
G
GW De Lacey
[...]
Thanks for your reply. I gather then that you favour Opteron as a
solution. FWIW I average about 6 years between major upgrades - have
done that consistently since 1984 - so I'm aware of the logistical
problems you so kindly point out. My current system started life in
1998 as P2 450, and is currently running on p3 coppermine (lovely
chip)and it's starting to show it's age. I have accumulated all of the
peripherals you mention (UPS, backup systems etc). I'm running XP Pro
through a Linux box emulating NT4. I see no real reason to replace the
server at the moment (database operations are minimal, although that
might change), but this workstation is another kettle of fish.
My questions are more about hardware than about actual operational
matters. I'm leaning toward a dual setup, possibly opteron, but I need
to know the issues before making a decision.
Once again, thanks for your detailed reply, and I'll certainly take
your suggestions on board.
T
Tim
Me again,
I wasn't stating a preference for opteron - the xeon's do have a reputation
for stability and 'server class' reliability. The reason for perhaps coming
across that way is that I see all of intel's efforts at the moment are in
catch up mode, that the AMD 64's in all their forms are good, and have good
thermals (unlike say the new intel leg warmers). Personally I think the
opterons will have a good life with excellent upgrade options in the future.
I suggest going over to www.2cpu.com and asking around there. The opterons
seem to be getting popular, but dual mobos aren't that numerous by
comparison.
The issues? Support, drivers, bios upgrades, volume of consumption in the
market. If a mobo is inherently sound (EG the P2B family / the BX chipset)
then it will have a long life so buying off a vendor that provides ongoing
bios and driver support is critical. I have been impressed with Asus and the
P2B. The current beta bios 1014 was produced quite some time ago (years) and
support is still at hand - particularly in this news groups. So the secret
is to predict which mobos will follow in those footsteps. The easiest way to
predict is to use trends, so the people that build these things most often
will be the ones to know @ 2cpu.
- Tim
I wasn't stating a preference for opteron - the xeon's do have a reputation
for stability and 'server class' reliability. The reason for perhaps coming
across that way is that I see all of intel's efforts at the moment are in
catch up mode, that the AMD 64's in all their forms are good, and have good
thermals (unlike say the new intel leg warmers). Personally I think the
opterons will have a good life with excellent upgrade options in the future.
I suggest going over to www.2cpu.com and asking around there. The opterons
seem to be getting popular, but dual mobos aren't that numerous by
comparison.
The issues? Support, drivers, bios upgrades, volume of consumption in the
market. If a mobo is inherently sound (EG the P2B family / the BX chipset)
then it will have a long life so buying off a vendor that provides ongoing
bios and driver support is critical. I have been impressed with Asus and the
P2B. The current beta bios 1014 was produced quite some time ago (years) and
support is still at hand - particularly in this news groups. So the secret
is to predict which mobos will follow in those footsteps. The easiest way to
predict is to use trends, so the people that build these things most often
will be the ones to know @ 2cpu.
- Tim
GW De Lacey said:
G
GW De Lacey
Right.
I've had a look at 2cpu, and yes, I can probably find a few answers
there. As you say, dual Mbo's aren't all that common. I guess I need
both PCIX PCI USB2, AGP and SATA on my new board. It seems to be
inordinately difficult to find a quality board with all of those
together.
I guess this is part of the fun of upgrading.
Thanks for your help. Its very much appreciated.
D
Doug Ramage
GW De Lacey said:
I have a dual Pentium PIII system which I am in the process of changing for
a dual Xeon one.
My gut instinct is that Intel is more stable than AMD (I also have 2 Athlon
based machines, including an unbuilt one).
G
GW De Lacey
Have you decided on a system yet? ASUS, TYAN...? Matrox, ATI...?
SATA...? etc.
I'd be very interested to know.