Minolta 5400, Vuescan, 1px lines

[Wilfred]

When I insert a set of slides, they are typically curved/bulged all in
the same direction (it's inherent of the way film dries). So if I
manage to acquire a good focus on one of them (for example because it
presents a visible, sharp edge where I can put the cross on), I have a
reference focus number, with sign, that comes handy if then the
scanner has troubles with the other slides of the same batch (for
example, because they lack proper sharp spots where I can put the
cross on).
Say I get "-0.145" as the focus value for the "good" slide; if the
second one says "0.20", I know it's very out of focus. At that point I
can either move the focus point to another spot, focus manually by
trial & error analyzing partial scans, or simply put it "-0.145"
knowing I'll be in the ballpark at least.

Thanks for explaining. This way of using it makes sense to me.

 

[Wilfred]

SNIP

There are several ways I use it:
1. Focus on center (by dragging the focus marker and select
Scanner|Focus from the menubar) and notice the relative focus number it
generates. As the scanner heats up the film (doing a few previews can
help to speed it up), it is likely to change shape. So after some
acclimatization re-focus from the menu. Repeat untill the number
stabilizes around a certain value. The film has now reached a certain
equilibrium.
2. Since the film is often somewhat warped/curled (especially the
first/last frame from a strip), sample at several points across the crop
area and note the minimum/maximum values. By typing in the average
number you'll optimize depth of field for that frame. Additional benefit
is that the film is even less likely to change shape during the final
scan pass because it had more time to acclimatize, with the lamp turned on.
3. Sometimes you may need the absolutely best possible focus of a small
area (e.g. a slanted edge test target itself, or an image of one on
film). By making a sequence of multiple scans with small increments of
the manual focus settings, you can be sure that one image will be the
best possible.

Thanks, Bart. BTW, is there a way to make VueScan focus on a specified
point without making a separate preview scan? Not AFAIK but it might be
practical for this approach.

Yes, and also important if you have a colormanaged workflow, is the
visual "out of gamut" clipping warning. That may prompt to use a wider
gamut output colorspace like "ProPhoto RGB", and optionally convert in
Photoshop to a different space using the desired rendering intent.

I didn't know that VueScan could do this - I'll check it out.

Another benefit of VueScan is that it allows to preview at maximum/scan
resolution, and then "scan from preview" (no need to scan the film again
after preview, so no loss of time).

Yes, but on a Minolta 5400 that doesn't make much sense - at least not
when scanning at 5400ppi.

 

[Fernando]

Thanks, Bart. BTW, is there a way to make VueScan focus on a specified
point without making a separate preview scan?

Yes, just move the focus pointer to the desidered point, switch to
"Manual Focus" and do "Scanner->Focus".

Bye!

Fernando

 

[rgbcmyk]

SNIP

There are several ways I use it:
1. Focus on center (by dragging the focus marker and select
Scanner|Focus from the menubar) and notice the relative focus number
it generates. As the scanner heats up the film (doing a few previews
can help to speed it up), it is likely to change shape. So after some
acclimatization re-focus from the menu. Repeat untill the number
stabilizes around a certain value. The film has now reached a certain
equilibrium.
2. Since the film is often somewhat warped/curled (especially the
first/last frame from a strip), sample at several points across the
crop area and note the minimum/maximum values. By typing in the
average number you'll optimize depth of field for that frame.
Additional benefit is that the film is even less likely to change
shape during the final scan pass because it had more time to
acclimatize, with the lamp turned on.
3. Sometimes you may need the absolutely best possible focus of a
small area (e.g. a slanted edge test target itself, or an image of one
on film). By making a sequence of multiple scans with small increments
of the manual focus settings, you can be sure that one image will be
the best possible.

I use a similar approach to make multiple scans to bracket focus and
pick the best one. With Minolta's sw, I rely on the white bar in the MF
slider and pick the one with the bar extending furthest to the right.
Vuescan's (never tried) focus number can be a better indicator. But it
probably does not change the focus algorithm.

Yes, and also important if you have a colormanaged workflow, is the
visual "out of gamut" clipping warning. That may prompt to use a wider
gamut output colorspace like "ProPhoto RGB", and optionally convert in
Photoshop to a different space using the desired rendering intent.

The histograms in Minolta sw's Exposure Control show clipping in each
channel. Or am I missing something?

Another benefit of VueScan is that it allows to preview at
maximum/scan resolution, and then "scan from preview" (no need to scan
the film again after preview, so no loss of time).

Is the maximum/scan resolution in the Vuescan preview equivalent to PS
100% zoom? If yes, it can save a lot of time in evaluating the focus as
described above.

 

[Wilfred]

The histograms in Minolta sw's Exposure Control show clipping in each
channel. Or am I missing something?

Yes, In VueScan you can not only see how much is clipped, but also where
on your image the clipping will occur.

 

[Don]

I didn't suggest it was, nevertheless, it is a statement of fact.

Yes, but a misleading one, because it suggests it's all somehow
Minolta's fault, while in truth it's his own programming incompetence.

Once he gets the data from the scanner it's no longer Minolta's
problem what he does with it!

Dark current calibration may be complicated but it's nothing new. So
if he's unable to fix it for two years it's nothing to do with
Minolta.

Don.

 

[Fernando]

Yes, In VueScan you can not only see how much is clipped, but also where
on your image the clipping will occur.

Not only that: while Minolta sw only shows exposure clipping (level
saturation), Vuescan also shows Gamut clipping.
A color may be well inside level limits, but outside the color gamut
that was chosen (i.e.: sRGB easily clips "emerald" hues).

Fernando

 

[Bart van der Wolf]

Bart van der Wolf wrote: SNIP
Thanks, Bart. BTW, is there a way to make VueScan focus on a
specified point without making a separate preview scan?

Yes, just position the focus position marker/indicator on the preview
tab to where you want it. As long as you've set Manual focus, it will
not change the Focus number until you select Scanner|Focus from the
menubar.

SNIP

Yes, but on a Minolta 5400 that doesn't make much sense - at least
not when scanning at 5400ppi.

Depends on the crop size and the memory buffer settings. I agree that
a 234MB RGB or 312MB RGBI file is intimidating ...

Bart

 

[Wilfred]

Not only that: while Minolta sw only shows exposure clipping (level
saturation), Vuescan also shows Gamut clipping.
A color may be well inside level limits, but outside the color gamut
that was chosen (i.e.: sRGB easily clips "emerald" hues).

Yes, that's what Bart said, too. I never knew VueScan could do this (I
know Photoshop can do this if you've defined an output space). Is this a
new feature or have I overlooked it all the time?

 

[Ralf R. Radermacher]

Yes. Don't use Vuescan with a Minolta scanner. The software can't
cope.

Sure. Vuescan is totally unuseable with a Minolta 5400, as can be seen
here...

http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/482069/display/2117793

....and here...

http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/482069/display/2277625

....and here...

http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/482069/display/2354055

....and here...

http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/482069/display/1960489

....and on hundreds of other scans I've made with it.

Now, what exactly is wrong with them in your opinion?

Ralf

 

[Mendel Leisk]

Is the maximum/scan resolution in the Vuescan preview equivalent to PS
100% zoom? If yes, it can save a lot of time in evaluating the focus as
described above.

No. The preview is still somewhat pixelated, especially if you zoom
in. Scan from preview just saves having to make another pass.
Assessing focus at the scanning stage is pretty hit-or-miss. I do my
physical scan the Minolta Scan Utility, manually focussing. Usually if
you've got it right, you'll see it sort of "pop", when it does the new
preview, but you're never really sure till after, in PS at 100% zoom.

If I'm not happy with focus, I'll do another scan, open both in PS,
zoom to 100% with the same detail centered, and toggle between the two
(or 3, or).

 

[Hecate]

Sure. Vuescan is totally unuseable with a Minolta 5400, as can be seen
here...

http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/482069/display/2117793

...and here...

http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/482069/display/2277625

...and here...

http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/482069/display/2354055

...and here...

http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/482069/display/1960489

...and on hundreds of other scans I've made with it.

Now, what exactly is wrong with them in your opinion?

Ralf, just because your scans work (and I assume that thy do, I
haven't bothered to look) doesn't outweigh the fact that for a lot of
people with Minolta scanners they don't.

 

[Hecate]

Not only that: while Minolta sw only shows exposure clipping (level
saturation), Vuescan also shows Gamut clipping.
A color may be well inside level limits, but outside the color gamut
that was chosen (i.e.: sRGB easily clips "emerald" hues).

Alternatively, you can choose a sensible gamut in the first place.

 

[Ralf R. Radermacher]

Ralf, just because your scans work (and I assume that thy do, I
haven't bothered to look)

Good old Hecate. Never one to spoil a beautiful crusade with that stupid
real-life evidence.

doesn't outweigh the fact that for a lot of
people with Minolta scanners they don't.

Oh, sure. If most people succeed in getting to the second floor without
breaking their necks this doesn't change a thing about the fact that all
staircases are notorious killers and everyone should be running his
personal crusade against them.

Get a life.

Ralf

 

[rgbcmyk]

No. The preview is still somewhat pixelated, especially if you zoom
in. Scan from preview just saves having to make another pass.
Assessing focus at the scanning stage is pretty hit-or-miss. I do my
physical scan the Minolta Scan Utility, manually focussing. Usually if
you've got it right, you'll see it sort of "pop", when it does the new
preview, but you're never really sure till after, in PS at 100% zoom.

If I'm not happy with focus, I'll do another scan, open both in PS,
zoom to 100% with the same detail centered, and toggle between the two
(or 3, or).

Did you find Vuescan doing a better job in focusing than the Minolta sw?

 

[rgbcmyk]

Wilfred, based on your responses in this thread, it seems like you are
unaware of many of Vuescan's features. Is it an indication of Vuescan's
lack of documentation?

Fernando,

Could you explain how you can put these numbers to use? I would love to
have more control over focusing but I haven't the faintest idea about
how to manipulate these numbers in order to get the sharpest focus.

[snip]
Thanks, Bart. BTW, is there a way to make VueScan focus on a specified
point without making a separate preview scan? Not AFAIK but it might be
practical for this approach.

Yes, and also important if you have a colormanaged workflow, is the
visual "out of gamut" clipping warning. That may prompt to use a wider
gamut output colorspace like "ProPhoto RGB", and optionally convert in
Photoshop to a different space using the desired rendering intent.

I didn't know that VueScan could do this - I'll check it out.

[snip]

[snip]

Not only that: while Minolta sw only shows exposure clipping (level
saturation), Vuescan also shows Gamut clipping.
A color may be well inside level limits, but outside the color gamut
that was chosen (i.e.: sRGB easily clips "emerald" hues).

Yes, that's what Bart said, too. I never knew VueScan could do this (I
know Photoshop can do this if you've defined an output space). Is this a
new feature or have I overlooked it all the time?

 

[Wilfred]

Wilfred, based on your responses in this thread, it seems like you are
unaware of many of Vuescan's features. Is it an indication of Vuescan's
lack of documentation?

I think I'm aware of more features than the average VueScan user. I
guess I'm also aware of more features in Microsoft Word or Adobe
Photoshop than the average user of these programs is. It is not that
VueScan is as complex as those two programs, but it's constantly being
updated and not all users have the time to re-read the user manual with
every release. Checking out the 'what's changed' page on Ed's website is
more effective, but everytime I might miss a few new features that I
think are not useful when I read about them the first time - yet I may
find them useful at another time.

 

[Don]

Ralf, just because your scans work (and I assume that thy do, I
haven't bothered to look) doesn't outweigh the fact that for a lot of
people with Minolta scanners they don't.

I've taken the bother to have a quick look and the pictures are
utterly pointless for the purpose of this discussion. I could get an
even better "scan" with a 1 megapixel digicam.

You can't judge a scanner from a tiny web jpg!

(And most certainly not from a heavily Photoshoped one!)

The fact that he thinks you can, shows why he (like the rest of the
rabid section of the VueScan sect) can't grasp the concept of why
VueScan is so bad.

For people like that, I'd say, VueScan is perfect! Use it and be
happy. (Ignorance is bliss, as they say.)

But, to anyone who cares for quality and reliability, my advice is to
stay away from VueScan. It's as simple as that.

Don.

 

[Ralf R. Radermacher]

I've taken the bother to have a quick look and the pictures are
utterly pointless for the purpose of this discussion.

I'd gladly show you two dozen excellent prints hanging on the walls of
this place. I'm just a little concernced about the stains you'd be
leaving on my carpet from all your pissing and moaning.

I could get an
even better "scan" with a 1 megapixel digicam.

....which goes a long way to show who really has no idea, in this
discussion.

Do come back if you can think of something better.

Ralf

 

[Fernando]

Yes, that's what Bart said, too. I never knew VueScan could do this (I
know Photoshop can do this if you've defined an output space). Is this a
new feature or have I overlooked it all the time?

It's there since quite a long; it was already there in 7.6.something,
if I remember well.
Lots of things to keep in mind!

Fernando