Microsoft and .NET VS The World

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jeremy S.
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Jeremy S.

Please note that this post is *not* intended to start any discussion between
the merits of .NET and other rival technologies.

Rather, what I would greatly appreciate are references to articles, white
papers, and the like that do present the merits of each; any comparisons,
etc - and hopefully from objective sources (or at least a rational treatment
of the issues). For years I have heard some people promoting "open source"
in contrast to vendor-specific solutions (typically Microsoft is the
relevant vendor). Yet whenever I have questioned an advocate and ask them
simple questions like, "have you ever had to go in and modify the Linux
kernel; or would you ever actually do that if you were unhappy with some
aspect of Linux?" I have never gotten a rational response. More typically I
get personal shots at Bill Gates and other emotional mantra that doesn't
speak to the actual merits. So, I'm looking for anything that might be
considered an objective treatment of the topics: open source vs .Microsoft
solutions, or .NET vs J2EE, or ASP.NET/SQL Server vs PHP/MySQL solutions,
IIS vs Apache, etc.

Thanks!

Oh, and if any trolls want to respond to this, please limit yourselves to
providing me with references to rational materials that support your point
of view. Again, this post is not intended to become an actual discussion of
the relative merits. Just references, please.
 
I would suggest that you're not going to find what you are looking for in
here, mainly because most of the participants have a slant toward .NET.

I would also suggest that you're not really going to find anything really
objective from any 'industry' sources, again, because they will be biased,
(one way or the other), to some degree.

In my view, the only sources that I would consider to be objective would be
acedemia where studies of A v B may have been carried out as part of a
Masters or Ph.D. thesis. Theoretically. From your timezone I assume you are
on the East Coat of North America so, if I were you, I would consider making
inquires of one of the CalTech or UC campuses.
 
Jeremy,

I agree completly with Stephany that the change that you find an objective
answer is almost impossible.

When people look at your problem, than they do it from there perspective,
which can be even. "Let all stay the same as it is".

In my opinion would you have to set a topic for yourself, by instance if you
find that Internet has a future, "what would than be the most complete OS
Server/Desktop/Handheld platform to use". Than you can make a decission
table and search the Internet for documents that give answers on your
questions.

When you start with "What has the future" than you probably get only very
subjective and time related answers.

Only my thought,

Cor
 
Holy Smokes! You are both right about the likelihood of me finding any
*objective* discourse. But what about *rational* discourse? (or are these
two sides of the same coin?).

Isn't it amazing that we work in a field (IT) for which a typical entry
point is a degree having to do with computer *science* and that there is a
whole lot of rational thought that must go into making successful design
decisions; lots of deductive reasoning and a smattering of inductive
thought ----- YET when it comes to a choice of technology with which to
implement our grand schemes it comes down to EMOTIONAL decision-making???

Thanks for confirming what I thought all along.

BTW: What does this say about the whole "troll" thing? Trolls must be some
of the most emotional amongst us! Maybe Dr. Phil could do a special on
"emotionally stunted computer scientists and the gratification of being a
troll."
 
Perfect! This is just the sort of thing I am looking for. It would be great
if I could find something that deals with "open source vs proprietary
solutions" at a high level; a sort of pros and cons discussion of each.

Thanks again.
 
Jeremy S. said:
Perfect! This is just the sort of thing I am looking for. It would be
great if I could find something that deals with "open source vs
proprietary solutions" at a high level; a sort of pros and cons discussion
of each.
Click to expand...

Be careful with that link, some of its premises are no longer true(for
example Mono has C# apps running well on other platforms at this point). But
it is a good start.
 
Jeremy,

It looks for me a little bit as the comparising on Jon Skeet pages between
VBNet and C#.

Jon tells all the things from VBNet that it has more than C#, however almost
everytime added with a reason why that is not important or even bad.

He does that not where C# has something more than VBNet.

Nothing wrong with, it is his opinion, however you should always see the
point of view from where the writer made it.

Just something you to remind on.

Cor
 
Note: I am not opposed against Linux! But I give you my neutral vision
below.


Isn't it amazing that we work in a field (IT) for which a typical entry
point is a degree having to do with computer *science* and that there is a
whole lot of rational thought that must go into making successful design
decisions; lots of deductive reasoning and a smattering of inductive
thought ----- YET when it comes to a choice of technology with which to
implement our grand schemes it comes down to EMOTIONAL decision-making???
Click to expand...

Sadly enough, IT decisions are mostly based on emotions. Which is logical
since the world is evolving so dramatically in the technology world that it
is almost impossible to test and know everything. So IT people and
developers must jump onto an emotional hunch system instead of a logical
decision.



There are simply too many different versions of any program, OS, library,
processor types, that there is no way to logically predict the future of
what is going to be.



Regarding to Linux, I do have limited experience regarding SuSe, and some
programming in Linux, and I just stopped it because there are far too many
different versions and flavors of Linux. SuSe 7.x, 8.x, 9.x, Mandrake, Red
Hat, not to mention different user interfaces like the KDE & Co. Also the
installation procedures are different for every Linux variant. Simply said,
you cannot create one program compile it, create a setup and distribute it
to all Linux.



In Windows you have you have the Win 95.Win98, WinMe, Win2K, WinNT4, Win XP
and now Win XP 64 bit. also a lot of them but far less than if you go the
Linux way. So I believe that this is why companies and developers prefer
Microsoft at this moment.



Sometimes I think that a lot of Linux kernel programmers are student that
wants to do alternatives things like most students do. Something equivalent
like not going to the movies to see a commercial film, but go to an
experimental film. In search to find a unique identity opposite of the rest
of the world.



But sometimes they can be normal programmers that normally program in
Microsoft tools but when they get home they try to program in Linux as a
hobby to do something else. Just like me.


Yet whenever I have questioned an advocate and ask them
simple questions like, "have you ever had to go in and modify the Linux
kernel; or would you ever actually do that if you were unhappy with some
aspect of Linux?" I have never gotten a rational response. More typically I
get personal shots at Bill Gates and other emotional mantra that doesn't
speak to the actual merits.
Click to expand...

I don't think these are real Linux programmers; these are more like script
kiddies that wants to show off. Just like graffiti, or warring different
style of clothes just to shock people.



A lot of the arguments of these people are based on what they have heard,
and almost nothing about their own experiences.

And some rumors they tell were true, but in the mean time Microsoft is also
evolving and learning so many rumors are based on old technology.



Regarding the Open source, I you look at the developments, then I notice
several things about Linux:


* They have a lot of great ideas.
* A zillion of projects.

* Most projects stay in the beta phase and suddenly gets abounded.

* Most of the time, numerous different groups try to create the same
project each in their own different way without working together with other
groups.

* Many Linux companies create their own flavors of the Linux.



What Linux lacks is a centralized coordination and planning into the future.

Otherwise it would be a very good product. But at this time, most groups
work against each other. They all want to do it their own way.
 
Olaf,

There are great Linux implementations, by instance telephone PABX's

Your explanation is built in my idea based on how you use/develope software.

Cor
 
There are great Linux implementations, by instance telephone PABX'sStandalone implementations yes.
Your explanation is built in my idea based on how you use/develope software.
Click to expand...
Yes I see it from programmers and IT viewpoint.

This weekend I am planning to install a Linux, to test the 64 bit
functionality.

My experience with Linux is still based on SuSe 6.4 and 7.x??? Long time
ago.



So in order to get the necessary knowledge I prefer to test it myself.

I want to compare Windows XP, Windows XP 64 bit beta and Linux 64 bit
version on the same machine. Linux has been changed in the years, so I am
wondering if my grandmother for example is now able to use it without any
help from me except for the installation. A few years ago that was
impossible.



Sometimes I get questions about porting my code to Linux, so I want to give
a decent answer when people ask this. One thing that I really want to test
is Mono. The .NET version for Linux. Can I create a pure .NET program and
run it on Linux without need of recompiling? In theorie yes.



If only I can find more time. ;-)



Linux and or not. I am very fond of the .NET framework! :-)
 
Yet whenever I have questioned an advocate and ask them
simple questions like, "have you ever had to go in and modify the Linux
kernel; or would you ever actually do that if you were unhappy with some
aspect of Linux?" I have never gotten a rational response. More typically I
get personal shots at Bill Gates and other emotional mantra that doesn't
speak to the actual merits.
Click to expand...
Just wondering, do Microsoft users/programmers/IT also behave like this when
you ask them what they think about Linux?
Or do they tend to give a more rational response?
 
Olaf,

I am as well from the .Net side, however I have seen nice Linux solutions
(in the time when routers where expensive) to make from old computers
dedicated router/firewalls.

I think that for that Linux is one of the first chooses and not the all
purpose windows OS.

In the other area I keep my mouth because I have no experience with Linux as
a developer.

Cor
 
Cor Ligthert said:
It looks for me a little bit as the comparising on Jon Skeet pages between
VBNet and C#.

Jon tells all the things from VBNet that it has more than C#, however almost
everytime added with a reason why that is not important or even bad.

He does that not where C# has something more than VBNet.
Click to expand...

I think that's a little unfair, actually. If anything, it's the other
way round. Have another look at the page (the link is
http://www.yoda.arachsys.com/csharp/faq/#vb.or.csharp for quick
reference).

Under VB.NET advantages:
Point 1 is entirely positive.
Point 2 I've put as both good and bad, depending on the situation
Point 3 is entirely positive
Point 4 is mixed
Point 5 I've listed as "a matter of debate"
Point 6 is mixed
Point 7 is mixed
Point 8 is entirely positive
Point 9 is mixed

Under the C# advantages:
Point 1 specifies that it'll come to VB.NET with Whidbey, and there are
already add-ons to do it anyway.
Point 2 specifies that it'll come to VB.NET with Whidbey
Point 3 specifies that it'll come to VB.NET with Whidbey
Point 4 is entirely positive. (Is the "using" statement coming to
VB.NET in Whidbey? If so, I'll amend the page appropriately.)
Point 5 is mixed
Point 6 is sort of mixed - I put that it's "not to be used lightly"

So in fact, there are more entirely positive things in the VB.NET list
than in the C# list. I don't see how your assertions above fit reality
at all, I'm afraid.
Nothing wrong with, it is his opinion, however you should always see the
point of view from where the writer made it.
Click to expand...

I agree with the principle of looking at material in the light of the
author, but I still think your categorisation is unfair. In fact, I'd
argue it's your pro-VB.NET bias coming to the fore more than my pro-C#
bias.
 
Just wondering, do Microsoft users/programmers/IT also behave like this when
you ask them what they think about Linux?
Click to expand...

Not in my experience.
Or do they tend to give a more rational response?
Click to expand...

Nope. A lot of people are quite willing to slag off Linux just on what
they've heard - whereas most of the people I know who use Linux in
preference to Windows have at least *used* Windows.
 
Jon,
I think that's a little unfair, actually. If anything, it's the other
way round. Have another look at the page (the link is
http://www.yoda.arachsys.com/csharp/faq/#vb.or.csharp for quick
reference).
Click to expand...

My sincerely excuse,

I have asked this so often to you and in the debates you did not want to
change them.

Too my surprise those sentences as I remember me are almost not there
anymore or are in a way that I have not any problem with those. (I even
don't know if you change them, or that it was just my idea about that)

With the exception from this one.
a.. The VB.NET part of Visual Studio .NET compiles your code in the
background. While this is considered an advantage for small projects, people
creating very large projects have found that the IDE slows down considerably
as the project gets larger.

In my opinion does it save me a lot of time above the C# IDE. By instance I
am really a fast (however as well bad) typer. (I skip words, that has
nothing to do with the used language, you would have seen that often). In
the C# IDE I have to do an extra build to see that.

Because there are more opinions about that you could have skipped that
sentence.

I told by the way that it was your right to do it the way as it was because
it is your opinion, what was more the reason of this message. Because that
you are a regular to this newsgroup it seemed to me a very good reference.

In my idea you find C# a better language than VBNet. When that is not true,
than I will be very surprised. However there is not a discussion about that
in this tread.

Cor
 
Cor Ligthert said:
My sincerely excuse,

I have asked this so often to you and in the debates you did not want to
change them.
Click to expand...

Actually, I thought I offered to change them specifically after you'd
mentioned this. It doesn't matter.
Too my surprise those sentences as I remember me are almost not there
anymore or are in a way that I have not any problem with those. (I even
don't know if you change them, or that it was just my idea about that)

With the exception from this one.
a.. The VB.NET part of Visual Studio .NET compiles your code in the
background. While this is considered an advantage for small projects, people
creating very large projects have found that the IDE slows down considerably
as the project gets larger.

In my opinion does it save me a lot of time above the C# IDE. By instance I
am really a fast (however as well bad) typer. (I skip words, that has
nothing to do with the used language, you would have seen that often). In
the C# IDE I have to do an extra build to see that.
Click to expand...

So it's an advantage for small projects, as I said - but I've seen
people complain that it gets *very* slow when you've got a really large
solution. I think it's fair to mention that as a potential problem.
Because there are more opinions about that you could have skipped that
sentence.
Click to expand...

So I should only have mentioned it as an advantage, despite the fact
that people have complained at how VS.NET can become almost unusable
with large VB.NET solutions?
I told by the way that it was your right to do it the way as it was because
it is your opinion, what was more the reason of this message. Because that
you are a regular to this newsgroup it seemed to me a very good reference.

In my idea you find C# a better language than VBNet. When that is not true,
than I will be very surprised. However there is not a discussion about that
in this tread.
Click to expand...

Yes, I prefer C# to VB.NET - but I've tried to be as fair as possible
in that comparison.
 
Jon,

Jon,
So I should only have mentioned it as an advantage, despite the fact
that people have complained at how VS.NET can become almost unusable
with large VB.NET solutions?
Click to expand...
Are you sure it was not with VBNet 2002, I see this seldom in the
language.vb newsgroup. In my opinion a place where you would expect this the
first.

The problem with this sentences is that there is a lot subjective in it:
"What is a real big project ?(In a good design you should in my opinion very
quickly divide a project in subprojects). "What computer is used etc. etc.?

Not that it is a big problem for me however in my opinion would removing it
enriching your page. (And than remove that "with", that is not an advantage,
that is just setting a reference, what can be done in C# as well however
than not "with" as dot however by instance with the word "dot", the last
gives in my eyes a much nicer readable program as well)

Again sorry for thinking that I tried to tackle you, that was absolute not
the purpose of my message. It was just the first page that came in my mind
from what I had the*idea* that it was written from an easy to see point of
view and wrote that there was nothing wrong with it.

Cor
 
Are you sure it was not with VBNet 2002, I see this seldom in the
language.vb newsgroup. In my opinion a place where you would expect this the
first.

The problem with this sentences is that there is a lot subjective in it:
"What is a real big project ?(In a good design you should in my opinion very
quickly divide a project in subprojects). "What computer is used etc. etc.?

Not that it is a big problem for me however in my opinion would removing it
enriching your page.
Click to expand...

I don't see why something which people have complained about as making
VS.NET unusable should only count as an advantage, I'm afraid.

(As for what counts as a big solution, obviously the bigger it gets,
the worse the problem is going to get - it's not like it's a boolean
thing where it's suddenly a problem.)

After doing a few searches, it looks like it still is an issue in
VS.NET 2003 - if you do a google search for
background compilation VB.NET 2003 slow
you'll find people complaining about it in 2004, and talking about
Whidbey (i.e. unlikely to be people using 2002). I might autogenerate
a load of code (a few hundred thousand lines or so) just to see the
problem for myself...
(And than remove that "with", that is not an advantage,
that is just setting a reference, what can be done in C# as well however
than not "with" as dot however by instance with the word "dot", the last
gives in my eyes a much nicer readable program as well)
Click to expand...

No, I won't remove the fact that the value of "with" is a matter of
debate. Many people (myself included) think that "with" reduces
readability. It was deliberately left out of C# as it was considered a
bad thing, and I don't see any reason for giving the impression that
it's something that everyone thinks is good.
Again sorry for thinking that I tried to tackle you, that was absolute not
the purpose of my message.
Click to expand...

No problem.
It was just the first page that came in my mind
from what I had the*idea* that it was written from an easy to see point of
view and wrote that there was nothing wrong with it.
Click to expand...

Indeed - I just thought I'd point out that it's not actually that
biased :)
 
Jon,
No, I won't remove the fact that the value of "with" is a matter of
debate. Many people (myself included) think that "with" reduces
readability. It was deliberately left out of C# as it was considered a
bad thing, and I don't see any reason for giving the impression that
it's something that everyone thinks is good.
Click to expand...

I get the idea that you did not understand me, I mean remove that sentence
of the "with" completly. It is in my opinion not an advantage at all, when
you really want to do that you can do it in C# (and in VBNet without the
dot) in almost the same way, and than even not as bad readable (although as
well not nice) as that ugly dot. That was the meaning of my message. There
is not any advantage from the dot at all (there is a mythe about winning
performance with that). And because that you can do it in C# in almost the
same way is it not an advantage.

Cor
 
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