Merry Christmas

  • Thread starter Thread starter Alan Browne
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William said:
There are a LOT of atheists like that. I've dealt personally with
many of

Yes....Some people get very annoyed at being discriminated against
just for exhibiting common sense.....After all, It was the middle
50's when congress changed the pledge of allegiance to read, "under
God" instead of, "indivisible". Where did that come from? - If that
wasn't simply a slap in the face to the atheists, then what, exactly
was it?
Click to expand...

I'm wondering if it might have been a "slap" to Communist USSR... ?
One might argue that if the religious zealots started it,
then they have no one but themselves to blame when we fight back, do
they? So now many of us are petitioning the government to remove all
references to god from all of our public places....Well, what do you
guys expect? In my case, it isn't worth the trouble.....For the first
10 years of my life, I thought it meant you couldn't see our
country.....:^) So why, exactly would I care? but obviously, there
are some who do. And, when I am asked to go to the polls and
vote....Which side do you think I am going to vote for?
Click to expand...

I understand both sides, actually, William. You're not a kook. There are
kooks on both the atheist side and the religious side. I don't like your
pronouncement that all believers are somehow fools, or illogical, etc. I
certainly understand how faith seems to fly in the face of logic. Believe
me...I DO understand that at a personal level. I just think there's more
going on than can be measured/quantified etc. I tend to view these things
through a logical eye too, and it's a problem for me that I struggle with.
I don't know that I'll ever feel I've "figured it out." But please don't
assume that because of an area of faith in one's life, that the faithful are
universally irrational or illogical. There are some blind, "faithful"
idiots. I've run into them, and I'd like to smack them in the head just as
much as you would. But there are others who are not only logical, but
exceedingly wise and down-to-Earth in their faith. I hope you'll meet them
someday, because you may have to revise a few of your sweeping
generalizations.
 
Bill Funk said:
And what penalties did Congress set up to punish any and all who don't
utter the magic words?
None.
What means were set up to ensure that the Pledge is said by all ands
sundry at any given interval?
None.
So, where's the idea that any God is somehow the God of the
Government?
Click to expand...

For the first 10 years or so of my life, I had to file into an auditorium at
school every morning, and mumble whatever my classmates were mumbling......I
don't appreciate my children having to file into one and mumble whatever
their classmates have to mumble....The least I can do is to break that
cycle.How far will I go? - Well, I'm not going to strap a bunch of dynamite
to my chest and blow myself up over it, but I sure as hell am going to cast
my vote over it whenever I get the chance. Today, there are a bunch of
religious nuts that are willing to blow themselves up over things like
this....Perhaps you guys should take a cue from that and back off a
little......
 
Alan Browne said:
So did Ronald Reagan. A lot.
Click to expand...
Yes....that's the party line, all right....Thing is, Reagan made a hell of a
lot of really good decisions, so why would I care where they came from?
 
Alan Browne said:
For their period it was as standard to profess belief in God as it was to
hide any doubts about such a belief.
Click to expand...

Yeah.....In those days, you could be burned at the stake for failing to
profess your belief(e) in God. Today, you just lose the election.........
 
William said:
For the first 10 years or so of my life, I had to file into an
auditorium at school every morning, and mumble whatever my classmates
were mumbling......I don't appreciate my children having to file into
one and mumble whatever their classmates have to mumble....The least
I can do is to break that cycle.How far will I go? - Well, I'm not
going to strap a bunch of dynamite to my chest and blow myself up
over it, but I sure as hell am going to cast my vote over it whenever
I get the chance. Today, there are a bunch of religious nuts that are
willing to blow themselves up over things like this....Perhaps you
guys should take a cue from that and back off a little......
Click to expand...

For as practical a guy as you otherwise seem, William, I'm frankly surprised
you'd burn so many calories...and so many votes...over these "mumblings."
 
Mark² (lowest even number here) said:
For as practical a guy as you otherwise seem, William, I'm frankly surprised
you'd burn so many calories...and so many votes...over these "mumblings."
Click to expand...

I have just reviewed, looked over the 200 plus posts in this topic, and
I am now convinced that I am wasting my time in subscribing to it. No
one seems know what the group is about, it's purpose, and very little,
if anything, about medium format photography. All I see is people
running their mouth via the internet. Who cares and whose business is
it, if you believe, or do not believe in a god. All that is your own
business, and people who have to speak, often going on and on, are just
those who's beliefs need support and are seeking it by going public.
Unless pointedly asked, a true believer (in whatever) would not need to
state such information in public. At a meeting of people of the same
belief, he could and would, freely state his belief for all to hear!

Jim Simmons
 
Jim said:
I have just reviewed, looked over the 200 plus posts in this topic,
and I am now convinced that I am wasting my time in subscribing to
it. No one seems know what the group is about, it's purpose, and
very little, if anything, about medium format photography. All I see
is people running their mouth via the internet. Who cares and whose
business is it, if you believe, or do not believe in a god. All that
is your own business, and people who have to speak, often going on
and on, are just those who's beliefs need support and are seeking it
by going public. Unless pointedly asked, a true believer (in
whatever) would not need to state such information in public. At a
meeting of people of the same belief, he could and would, freely
state his belief for all to hear!

Jim Simmons
Click to expand...

It's very simple, Jim. Get yourself a decent, free newsreader, and simply
skip this particular thread. This is merely a naturaly side-track
conversation between photographers who frequent these groups...which started
with "Merry Christmas." This is "public," yes, but I am very familiar with
William Graham, Alan Browne, Bill Funk, and the others talking here.
They've been participating photographers here for years. We, in a sense,
"know" each other, and are some level above public strangers. And by the
way...I think your theory is bunk--about looking for validation here. I can
tell you that I rarely get that here if anything religious comes up. -But
why do YOU care one way or the other. Clearly you do or you wouldn't read
200 posts...only to gripe and moan...followed by YOUR OWN two cents on
religion! :) Even YOU felt compelled to enter in with your own take.
Isn't it funny how we're ALL hypocrites at one time or another?

Again... Get a news-reader, and all will be right with your NG world...
 
Jim said:
I have just reviewed, looked over the 200 plus posts in this topic, and
I am now convinced that I am wasting my time in subscribing to it. No
one seems know what the group is about, it's purpose, and very little,
if anything, about medium format photography.
Click to expand...

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Jim!

BTW: you don't "have" to read every thread and post, and you can filter
them out with the appropriate newsreader settings.

But, the most effective way to not read things you don't want to "waste
your time with" is to post fresh new topics for discussion and distract
us from our sidebar discussions.

Cheers,
Alan
 
Mark² said:
Reminds me of "Miracle on 34th Street" where Macy and Gimble start arguing
over who gets to pay for the x-ray machine Kris Kringle want to buy for
his friend... :)
Click to expand...
Yes....I see these things in a different perspective. If you can generate a
lot of money in a short period of time by doing whatever it is you are good
at, (Bill Gates, for example) then there is nothing wrong with giving some
of that money to a charitable cause, rather than your time, (which is much
more valuable to you and everyone else if you do whatever it is that you are
good at.) The idea that it doesn't mean anything if you don't "suffer" in
some way is ludicrous to me. I am sure the recipients of the charity neither
know nor care how the money was made, and I doubt whether God would care,
either. He would only care if making money was some kind of "sin", and as a
republican, I don't believe it is a sin to make money. Only liberal
democrats believe that everyone who is rich got that way by climbing up the
backs of the poor and the downtrodden. We enlightened Republicans know that
there are lots of people who made their money the old fashioned way, by
working hard for it, and saving and investing it, and there is no sin in
giving some of it to charity.........
 
Mark² said:
For as practical a guy as you otherwise seem, William, I'm frankly
surprised you'd burn so many calories...and so many votes...over these
"mumblings."
Click to expand...

But that's my point....I don't burn many calories over it.....In general, I
just leave it alone....After all, I spent the first 15 years of my life just
putting up with it......
It's just that I can't help identifying with us free thinkers who don't
like being forced (and, when you are only 6 or 7 years old, you are being
forced) to take part in other people's religious rituals. I just think the
religious nuts in this world should leave it alone....Don't mess with the
pledge of allegiance, or anything else that was set up by our forefathers.
After all, from my perspective, it's bad enough as it is. They were, for
the most part, Christians, and they let a large amount of that Christianity
creep into their writings and early American documents of state......All I'm
saying now is: Don't exacerbate the problem by increasing the presence of
that religious bias......Be satisfied with what you've got, which is
considerable, by the way......
 
I have just reviewed, looked over the 200 plus posts in this topic, and
I am now convinced that I am wasting my time in subscribing to it. No
one seems know what the group is about, it's purpose, and very little,
if anything, about medium format photography. All I see is people
running their mouth via the internet. Who cares and whose business is
it, if you believe, or do not believe in a god. All that is your own
business, and people who have to speak, often going on and on, are just
those who's beliefs need support and are seeking it by going public.
Unless pointedly asked, a true believer (in whatever) would not need to
state such information in public. At a meeting of people of the same
belief, he could and would, freely state his belief for all to hear!

Jim Simmons

But there are people who refuse to respect the line drawn in the
sand....They have to step over that line whenever they think they can get
away with it. The problem is, they believe that their God smiles at those
who "convert" the heathenistic masses into believing in him, and they think
they can do that by being obnoxious. This is similar to believing that you
can get into heaven by strapping a bunch of dynamite to yourself, and
blowing yourself up, as long as you take a few infidels (heathins) with you,
except it isn't quite as obnoxious as that.....But the general principal is
the same.....If you don't believe, then, By God, I'm going to make you
believe, even if I have to kill you (or otherwise infringe on your space) to
do it! I claim that that line in the sand should be ten feet wide, and we
should all take care to remain on our side of it at all times. Then we
wouldn't be at each other's throats all the time..........
 
Mark² said:
It's very simple, Jim. Get yourself a decent, free newsreader, and simply
skip this particular thread. This is merely a naturaly side-track
conversation between photographers who frequent these groups...which
started with "Merry Christmas." This is "public," yes, but I am very
familiar with William Graham, Alan Browne, Bill Funk, and the others
talking here. They've been participating photographers here for years.
We, in a sense, "know" each other, and are some level above public
strangers. And by the way...I think your theory is bunk--about looking
for validation here. I can tell you that I rarely get that here if
anything religious comes up. -But why do YOU care one way or the other.
Clearly you do or you wouldn't read 200 posts...only to gripe and
moan...followed by YOUR OWN two cents on religion! :) Even YOU felt
compelled to enter in with your own take. Isn't it funny how we're ALL
hypocrites at one time or another?

Again... Get a news-reader, and all will be right with your NG world...
Click to expand...
Yeah.....Basically, the problem is we get bored with just photography,
photography all the time, and occasionally have to talk about something
else.....That having been said, one could do a lot worse than photograph
churches and cathedrals....Some of the best architecture ever created was
done in the name of God.....Just as is some of the greatest music ever
written....As a musician, I would be seriously depriving myself should I
refuse to play anything written in the name of religion.......
 
Mark² said:
I'm wondering if it might have been a "slap" to Communist USSR... ?


I understand both sides, actually, William. You're not a kook. There are
kooks on both the atheist side and the religious side. I don't like your
pronouncement that all believers are somehow fools, or illogical, etc. I
certainly understand how faith seems to fly in the face of logic. Believe
me...I DO understand that at a personal level. I just think there's more
going on than can be measured/quantified etc. I tend to view these things
through a logical eye too, and it's a problem for me that I struggle with.
I don't know that I'll ever feel I've "figured it out." But please don't
assume that because of an area of faith in one's life, that the faithful
are universally irrational or illogical. There are some blind, "faithful"
idiots. I've run into them, and I'd like to smack them in the head just
as much as you would. But there are others who are not only logical, but
exceedingly wise and down-to-Earth in their faith. I hope you'll meet
them someday, because you may have to revise a few of your sweeping
generalizations.
Click to expand...
I've met a lot of them.....People like Albert Einstein, and other great
thinkers who were religious.....But I have noticed that the more intelligent
they are, the more their religion reduces itself to some basic concept, such
as, "I believe that some supreme entity created this universe, but I don't
believe in the Christian myth." And I have no argument with this....There is
no way I can prove that the universe didn't start somewhere, and it could
have started with some supreme being as it's initiator. The only reason I am
an atheist is because, in general, I don't happen to believe that, but I
can't prove that it isn't so. Most of the time, when I make reference to
"religious nuts" I am either talking tongue in cheek, or referring to real
religious nuts....People who would kill me in order to convert me.......
 
William said:
Yes....I see these things in a different perspective. If you can
generate a lot of money in a short period of time by doing whatever
it is you are good at, (Bill Gates, for example) then there is
nothing wrong with giving some of that money to a charitable cause,
rather than your time, (which is much more valuable to you and
everyone else if you do whatever it is that you are good at.) The
idea that it doesn't mean anything if you don't "suffer" in some way
is ludicrous to me.
Click to expand...

I'm not talking about suffering.
I'm merely talking about the attitude of giving. As I stated
clearly...there are benefits to the receiver--no matter WHAT the giver's
attitude is. I'm only talknig about the difference between those who give
for personal gain vs. those who give with the simple motivation of
generosity, etc.
I am sure the recipients of the charity neither
know nor care how the money was made
Click to expand...

I've already agreed with that and stated it plainly.
, and I doubt whether God would
care, either.
Click to expand...

You don't believe in God, William, so your off the cuff opinion of his
nature is rather suspect.
:)
He would only care if making money was some kind of
"sin", and as a republican, I don't believe it is a sin to make
money. Only liberal democrats believe that everyone who is rich got
that way by climbing up the backs of the poor and the downtrodden. We
enlightened Republicans know that there are lots of people who made
their money the old fashioned way, by working hard for it, and saving
and investing it, and there is no sin in giving some of it to
charity.........
Click to expand...

Who said anything about sin? It's no sin to give with a 4-foot check...or
however else you want to give. I only mention that according to the
Bible...in terms of the giver...God cares about the attitude of the giver
more than the gift itself.
 
Mark² said:
There are a LOT of atheists like that. I've dealt personally with many of
them, and quite a number of them have had such a HUGE chip on their shoulder
Click to expand...

It comes from being constantly badgered by religious zealots.
 
Mark² said:
The difficulty comes because the "proof" of God doesn't come in a
scientifically measurable form.
Click to expand...

If it's not scientifically measurable, it's not "proof".
 
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