Looking for the best ATX 2.0 PSU for SLI + Monitor poll

[professor]

I suppose tomshardware is lying about latency now, right?
As far as DVDs go, I've seen them on TN+film monitors and I've seen
them on MVA monitors and there's no comparison. The viewing angles
are better on the MVAs and so are the colors. Overdrive goes beyond
the requested brightness, which is what I call overshooting, not free
frames. When the requested brightness is 175, and it goes to 210, I
call that overshoot. I've looked at that particular LCD, and I agree
with Toms...it almost looks out of native resolution all the time.
Sit up close to your LCD while watching a dvd and tell me that you
don't see what looks like some strange video noise.

 

[professor]

By the way, I realize that some of that noise comes from the fact tha
DVDs are only 720x480, but that monitor is much worse than the MV
panels that I have looked at. What you call “soft” I call poo
quality. Just a difference of opinion I suppose

 

[Paul]

Take a look at:
http://www.pcpowercooling.com/products/viewproduct.php?show=T85SSI> Rock solid. Or even:
http://www.pcpowercooling.com/products/viewproduct.php?show=T51SLI

An 850 watt, $449 psu seems like overkill to me until the quad
cardboards come out, which I would never buy anyway. However, the
510watt version seems more reasonable. Is there any reason why I
would actually need 850 watts? I'm planning on either an X2 4400
or 4800,depending on the next price drop and (for now) one GeForce
7800 GTX of some sort, maybe the BFG. Seems 510 watts will be enough.
I'm also considering the DFI LANPARTY nF4 SLI-DR. Anyone have any
experience with that mobo? I'm usually an ASUS guy, but this board
seems interesting. Anyway, thanks for the help![/QUOTE]

The challenge with the multiple output power supplies, is getting
info on which rail drives which power cables. The Turbo-Cool 850 SSI
is an SSI, and I think that means there is a 2x4 power connector
intended to power two CPU sockets.

+12V1 @ 16A
+12V2 @ 16A
+12V3 @ 30A

While it might seem obvious that there is 16 amps for each
processor socket, and the 30 amps is reserved for the rest of
the cables, the documentation doesn't state how it is wired.
Maybe if there are PCI Express 2x3 cables, they come from
12V1 and 12V2, rather than 12V3 ? I used to see wiring diagrams
for these monster supplies, but suddenly good info on where
the 12V1, 12V2, ... go is hard to find.

This is an example of getting a bit of info about wiring:
http://www.enermax.com.tw/english/upload/document/M200512289464860591.pdf

That lack of info is what would make me nervous when specifying
a big power supply.

Since Kony found a better link than the link used on the
slizone.com web page, I think the FSP is safe (and not someone
making a ripoff copy).

http://www.fsp-group.com.tw/english/1_product/1_list.asp?mainid=1&fid=98

It is a quad. Note the mechanical dimensions - some of the
high power supplies are longer than normal. 140x150x86mm
is the listed spec (it is regular size). Turbocool
850 and 1KW = 230x150x80mm

+5V@30A +12V1@15A +12V2@15A +12V3@15A +12V4@15A +3.3V@36A [email protected] +5Vsb@2A

This advert says it has a 2x4 power connector for dual CPUs,
splittable to make a 2x2 for desktop motherboards. The 2x4 is
likely wired to 12V1 and 12V2, which means if you don't have a
dual processor socket board, then 12V2 is unused.

http://www.directron.com/directron/fx600gln.html

Maybe you can contact FSP and get a little more useful info.
No sense getting a quad, unless you get to use the power.

http://www.home2000.net/client/fspgroupusacom/contact.asp

I think if I were to buy a quad for home use, I'd buy some
more connectors and rewire it No sense wasting good
amperage.

Paul

 

[kony]

Automobile body shape/design varies *much* more than ATX PSU
case shape/design, no? Bad comparison on your part?

Varies more yes, but even so, I feel your concept of same
sheet metal vendor is incorrect, as we see it repeated with
actual units that only those made by same company look very
much the same. The details aren't large and obvious from a
2" web picture all the time but they're still there. The
two makes mentioned do in fact (In some models) have casings
so similar it is suspicious. Suspicious might not be the
right word though, Zippy makes good supplies, it would not
look bad on PC P&C for it to be a zippy rather than
something else.

If it came from a PCP&C employee, and not a 12-year customer,
it might be.


Not sure of the parts cost, but the added testing & inspection
process, the warranty/return policy, and the FREE customer support
with an 800 number probably is more responsible than the parts.

See above, this is starting to read like a shameless promo.
You buy the supply, the majority work fine, and if one
didn't know how to use it, an 800 number is beside the point
that they should've deferred to someone who knows basic
things like installing a PSU, to do so.

And 50 bucks for a 350 watt PSU is hardly "through the roof."

Yes that's their low-end, it still has the PC P&C markup but
not built nearly as well. That doesn't make it a bad deal,
but if one spends $50 and avoids the generics, they can get
a fine PSU for a system needing 350W model from most
brands... not a reason to avoid PC P&C but not one to choose
them either.

Having NO failures in 5 PSUs over a dozen years (including a
286 running since 1993) is worth the extra cost, IMO. Plus, I
am supporting a USA company, and talk to an American customer
support person who can directly ask PCP&C engineering any question
to which he doesn't have an answer. Slam dunk.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, though they are
in fact priced rather high for what they are. If the
support were actually worth the cost the other makes and
models wouldn't vastly outsell them. They effectively price
themselves out of most markets save for OEMs who do not pay
anywhere near $50 per.

 

[professor]

and talk to an American custome

support perso

You know...I may be sold on that alone. I hate calling custome
support and hearing an Asian that can barely speak English on th
other end of the line. I'm not racist...but I can't understand them
If they are telling me to check a particular connection or settin
and I don't have any clue what they just said, things tend to ge
frustrating

 

[UCLAN]

You know...I may be sold on that alone. I hate calling customer
support and hearing an Asian that can barely speak English on the
other end of the line. I'm not racist...but I can't understand them!
If they are telling me to check a particular connection or setting
and I don't have any clue what they just said, things tend to get
frustrating.

And *before* the sale, giving technical advice on whether or not
the problem is PSU related.

Or making the offer "if it is not a PSU problem, send the new one
back for a refund." How many PSU vendors do that?

 

[UCLAN]

Varies more yes, but even so, I feel your concept of same
sheet metal vendor is incorrect, as we see it repeated with
actual units that only those made by same company look very
much the same.

I know of a sheet metal company here in San Diego that does
sheet metal for multiple PSU manufacturers. Firms that specialize
in electronics rarely do their own sheet metal work. It's just
not cost effective.

See above, this is starting to read like a shameless promo.
You buy the supply, the majority work fine, and if one
didn't know how to use it, an 800 number is beside the point
that they should've deferred to someone who knows basic
things like installing a PSU, to do so.

The 800 number is handy for pre-sales technical advice (do I
need a new PSU? My system won't boot. Is it the PSU?)

Yes that's their low-end, it still has the PC P&C markup but
not built nearly as well.

Hogwash. It was part of the Turbo-Cool series with a 3-year
warranty. "Low-end" indeed.

 

[kony]

I know of a sheet metal company here in San Diego that does
sheet metal for multiple PSU manufacturers. Firms that specialize
in electronics rarely do their own sheet metal work. It's just
not cost effective.

That may be true, but even so, they're still making quite a
few units and can spec exactly what they want. The theory
about how one might ending looking the same doesn't
necessarily end up so in practice. It is definitely
possible, but show us an example of it? Where are two PSU
made by different manufacturers (not relabelers) that have
identical casings? Even online using pictures (rather than
in-person inspection) one can usually spot difference enough
that it is not the exact same casing.

The 800 number is handy for pre-sales technical advice (do I
need a new PSU? My system won't boot. Is it the PSU?)

I would hope most people aren't taking advantage of that, as
if they do it drives up the costs for the rest. IMO, tech
support should be FOR a product, not "help me decide if i
need the product".

Hogwash. It was part of the Turbo-Cool series with a 3-year
warranty. "Low-end" indeed.

Perhaps I'm wrong then, please link a Turbo Cool 350W for
$50.

 

[UCLAN]

That may be true, but even so, they're still making quite a
few units and can spec exactly what they want. The theory
about how one might ending looking the same doesn't
necessarily end up so in practice. It is definitely
possible, but show us an example of it? Where are two PSU
made by different manufacturers (not relabelers) that have
identical casings? Even online using pictures (rather than
in-person inspection) one can usually spot difference enough
that it is not the exact same casing.

I'm not gonna search the web for this, but it happens a lot.

Let's say I own "PSUA." I want to contract out a core PSU to "PSUB."
PSUB agrees to build the supply to our specs. PSUB also is going to
market its own cheaper supply. The two will be electrically *very*
different. But, to save money, PSUB decides to use the same sheet
metal on both PSUs. The uninformed might think that since they
*look* the same, that they are the same. They are in reality quite
different. Now, "PSUC" decides to contract with PSUB for a core PSU...
[No. Contracting out for a core supply built to your specifications
doesn't make you a "relabeler."

I would hope most people aren't taking advantage of that, as
if they do it drives up the costs for the rest. IMO, tech
support should be FOR a product, not "help me decide if i
need the product".

Yeah, but if the customer calls sales on the 800 number, and the
customer decides he/she needs pre-sales tech support, what are you
going to do? Tell him/her to call back on the non 800 number?

Perhaps I'm wrong then, please link a Turbo Cool 350W for
$50.

It didn't make it through on their new web site. I don't think it
has been discontinued. It's the same supply as the Silencer 310ATX,
but the Silencer has a different fan (and is derated for UL reasons.)
Same 3-year warranty. Same price.

http://www.pcpowercooling.com/products/viewproduct.php?show=S31ATX

Also, don't forget that PCP&C has a far different price list for
dealers, installers, etc.

 

[kony]

I'm not gonna search the web for this, but it happens a lot.

Again, I disagree. It does not happen a lot, stamping out
sheet metal is very easily modified per the customer's
design and there are in fact enough differences on casings
that look the same at a distance.

Let's say I own "PSUA." I want to contract out a core PSU to "PSUB."
PSUB agrees to build the supply to our specs. PSUB also is going to
market its own cheaper supply. The two will be electrically *very*
different. But, to save money, PSUB decides to use the same sheet
metal on both PSUs.

Let's say they decide to put a hamster on a treadmill in
one. Similarly vague theory isn't applicable to real-world,
unless you have real-world examples.

The uninformed might think that since they
*look* the same, that they are the same. They are in reality quite
different.

Let's take a real-world example. Channel Well makes two
models labeled as 420W PSU. The labels themselves look VERY
similar except one says "Turbolink" or something similar on
it, same text font and size, same other specs just this word
replaced. From 10 feet away you may not notice the casing
difference, but with both in hand, they are in fact
different, not the same casing.

A theory about what "could" be is not valid as projected
into what actually is, until you have examples of it.

On the other hand, it is possible same manufacturer used
same casing for two different internal boards or same board
populated differently. This is still different situation
than two different manufacturers using same design. If
anything is is more likely the particular manufacturer wants
exclusivity to the casing they spec'd so while THEY may
reuse it, they don't want another company using an identical
casing and would make this very clear to the casing
manufacturer.

Yeah, but if the customer calls sales on the 800 number, and the
customer decides he/she needs pre-sales tech support, what are you
going to do? Tell him/her to call back on the non 800 number?

I don't consider there to be a "pre-sales" tech support.
Would you call up toyota and describe to them that you feet
hurt if you walk to work, to find out if they recommend you
buy a car?

It didn't make it through on their new web site. I don't think it
has been discontinued. It's the same supply as the Silencer 310ATX,
but the Silencer has a different fan (and is derated for UL reasons.)
Same 3-year warranty. Same price.

If that's true, I'd avoid it in favor of another $50 PSU
because a Silencer 310 is non-competitive at the $50
price-point, the main thing it has going for it is the
quality fan (which is certainly very important, IMO) but at
this low of a price point you're paying too large a % of
price towards the PC Power & Cooling markup. That doesn't
make it a "bad" supply by any stretch, nor a bad deal for
$50 regular price, but other major brands are often on sale
so the end result is that for someone looking to spend $50
and that can manage to use a pricing engine, they'll do
better to avoid it. The better PC Power and Cooling models
are priced accordingly, you can't just buy the brand and
magically get highest quality- still costs real $$$.

http://www.pcpowercooling.com/products/viewproduct.php?show=S31ATX

Also, don't forget that PCP&C has a far different price list for
dealers, installers, etc.

Sure, but how does this bear on the thread? Unless they
start selling them in low unit volume it's not like that is
of benefit to the typical computer shop let alone end-user.

In conclusion, PC Power and Cooling makes good supplies but
you still have to pay for the quality, you can't just buy
into the name and spend $50 and expect miracles.

 

[UCLAN]

Let's say they decide to put a hamster on a treadmill in
one. Similarly vague theory isn't applicable to real-world,
unless you have real-world examples.

Having been GM for a large PSU manufacturer, and in charge of
Customer Service for another, I have seen this take place many
times in the "real-world." But you don't believe me. Fine. Bottom
line is that many PSU vendors use the same large manufacturers for
core units. These large manufacturers often use the same sheet
metal for numerous products. Your belief that since they look
the same they must be the same is false.

I don't consider there to be a "pre-sales" tech support.

Then you've never dealt with the end user trying to pick the
correct PSU for his/her system.

Would you call up toyota and describe to them that you feet
hurt if you walk to work, to find out if they recommend you
buy a car?

Poor comparison. Why do you keep comparing computer PSUs to cars?
And a new car salesman never offers advice as to *which model*
of car would best suit the buyer's need?

If that's true, I'd avoid it in favor of another $50 PSU
because a Silencer 310 is non-competitive at the $50
price-point, the main thing it has going for it is the
quality fan (which is certainly very important, IMO) but at
this low of a price point you're paying too large a % of
price towards the PC Power & Cooling markup.

Now I'm confused. You say that a Turbo-Cool 350 with its 3-year
warranty is OK, but the *same* supply with quieter fan and the
same 3-year warranty is not? Just because it is derated for U.L.
reasons? It still puts out as much power as the TC350 because it
is the *same* supply. You're logic is giving me a head-ache, Kony.

Sure, but how does this bear on the thread? Unless they
start selling them in low unit volume it's not like that is
of benefit to the typical computer shop let alone end-user.

Is TWO units low enough volume? And they used to give dealer
pricing for single units to dealers (the sales people were
told not to do this for first time customers, but they still
did.)

Methinks you know less about this than you think you do.

 

[professor]

Ok...um...flame...attack....my psu rocks....right. So...anyway...doe
any consensus exist on a good SLI PSU for under $150

 

[kony]

Methinks you know less about this than you think you do.

Ok, you're entitled to your opinion.
That doesn't necessarily make it true though, again I ask
where the real-world examples are?

 

[UCLAN]

Ok, you're entitled to your opinion.
That doesn't necessarily make it true though, again I ask
where the real-world examples are?

If your asking for present day examples, how would I know? I've
been retired for a number of years, have NO PSUs sitting in front
of me, and don't have the GMs of the PSU manufacturers reporting
their vendors to me. But I can't believe that the practice that
existed 5-10 years ago would have suddenly ended. It made too
much economic sense then, and still does today.

 

[kony]

If your asking for present day examples, how would I know?

Well we'd need a bit more than "you think it could be
possible". There's a possiblity factory employees hide
cheese-filled pretzels in power supplies so they can snack
during the day but so far I haven't found any pretzels in
any.

I've
been retired for a number of years, have NO PSUs sitting in front
of me, and don't have the GMs of the PSU manufacturers reporting
their vendors to me. But I can't believe that the practice that
existed 5-10 years ago would have suddenly ended. It made too
much economic sense then, and still does today.

Well I agree with your theory that it wouldn't be
impossible, but that's a bit different than it actually
happening for other reasons. It's not a hard thing to spec
a particular case design to a sheet metal fabricator when
you're probably one of their primary customers, and have
them bend over backwards to not only accomdate it but
reassure your product design is not going to be copied by
the next customer in their door. Companies don't like
products that look identical from the outside and will take
steps to protect their IP even in trival things like a case
design.

 

[UCLAN]

Well we'd need a bit more than "you think it could be
possible".

I didn't say that. I said it DID occur when I was active in
the business.

There's a possiblity factory employees hide
cheese-filled pretzels in power supplies so they can snack
during the day but so far I haven't found any pretzels in
any.

And that has _nothing_ to do with anything that has been discussed.
An outsource PSU manufacturer using the same case sheet metal is a
_fact_, not just a possibility. And now we all know that humor is
not your strong suit.

Well I agree with your theory that it wouldn't be
impossible,

I have suggested no such theory. What I have written was common
5-10 years ago, and no doubt still occurs today.

but that's a bit different than it actually
happening for other reasons. It's not a hard thing to spec
a particular case design to a sheet metal fabricator when
you're probably one of their primary customers, and have
them bend over backwards to not only accomdate it but
reassure your product design is not going to be copied by
the next customer in their door. Companies don't like
products that look identical from the outside and will take
steps to protect their IP even in trival things like a case
design.

I know of no PSU vendors that are that vain. The ATX specifications
are pretty explicit when it comes to ventilation, fan placement,
mounting holes, etc. There's not a lot of creative design possible
when it comes to ATX PSU cases. Design the electronics so that the
minimum ATX specified ventilation area is adequate, specify the
sheet metal gauge, and free up your engineers to worry about more
important things. You're not issuing specifications to the sheet metal
fabricator (as you suggest above), but rather to the outsource PSU
manufacturer. Geez...you rant about wasting money on PSUs, but want
to add cost to a component of low importance. Methinks you've eaten
too many of the above cheese filled pretzels.

 

[kony]

I know of no PSU vendors that are that vain.

Wrong! It is exactly the opposite, every singe PSU
manufacturer you "know" DOES in fact want their product to
retain branding and not be cloned by some knock-off company
looking to cash in on their work.

The ATX specifications
are pretty explicit when it comes to ventilation, fan placement,
mounting holes, etc. There's not a lot of creative design possible
when it comes to ATX PSU cases.

I suggest that you are not at all experienced with power
supplies, or simply think you know what you do not.

It is a plain and simple fact that each casing is different
enough, that among the dozen or more brands here, every
single different manufacturers case is indeed different
enough to not be the same.

You are only looking at vague concepts like hole placement,
but not grill designs, PCB standoff design, switch
placement, ground point, rear intake, metal finishing,
exhaust grill indentions, etc. All of these require a new
run, it's not just the same case even if made by same case
manufacturer.

Design the electronics so that the
minimum ATX specified ventilation area is adequate, specify the
sheet metal gauge, and free up your engineers to worry about more
important things. You're not issuing specifications to the sheet metal
fabricator (as you suggest above), but rather to the outsource PSU
manufacturer. Geez...you rant about wasting money on PSUs, but want
to add cost to a component of low importance. Methinks you've eaten
too many of the above cheese filled pretzels.

You are clueless.

 

[UCLAN]

Wrong! It is exactly the opposite, every singe PSU
manufacturer you "know" DOES in fact want their product to
retain branding and not be cloned by some knock-off company
looking to cash in on their work.

Maintain their electrical design against clone knock offs? Yes,
but that's not the topic. The CASE is the topic. Most manufacturers
couldn't care less if another PSU had a case that looked like theirs.
That's plain silly. In all of my years as GM or CS manager, or earlier
in engineering, not once did we get upset by "clone cases." But we sure
got the phone lines warm when circuit design copying was brought to our
attention. Guard against similarly named PSU brands? Sure. *That's*
worth a trip to court. Get upset over someones PSU *case*? Nah...

I suggest that you are not at all experienced with power
supplies, or simply think you know what you do not.

Yeah, only 30+ years in the business; 10+ in the PC PSU business.
Design the electronics well, and case design is not important.
As long as the metal gauge and finish meet your QC, go on to
important things.

It is a plain and simple fact that each casing is different
enough, that among the dozen or more brands here, every
single different manufacturers case is indeed different
enough to not be the same.

A whole dozen? Gee, what a grand sample. 12 supplies. That is
probably less than 5% of the makes/models on the market. Far less.
And are those brands from American manufacturers, or a off-shore
maker?

You are clueless.

Ah, on this subject I was thinking the exact thing of you. I'm sure
any current PSU manufacturing GMs out there that have read this thread
have gotten a chuckle out of your ill informed opinion.

 

[kony]

Maintain their electrical design against clone knock offs? Yes,
but that's not the topic. The CASE is the topic. Most manufacturers
couldn't care less if another PSU had a case that looked like theirs.

So you keep saying but your grand illusion has no basis in
reality, no models that exhibit this!

That's plain silly. In all of my years as GM or CS manager, or earlier
in engineering, not once did we get upset by "clone cases." But we sure
got the phone lines warm when circuit design copying was brought to our
attention. Guard against similarly named PSU brands? Sure. *That's*
worth a trip to court. Get upset over someones PSU *case*? Nah...

You seem a lot like a person lost in thoughts of how
sensible they feel they are, rather than one who learns from
observation of actual state of things- in this case it would
be the actual power supply cases. If you were right, you
would have noticed it at least one time. Again I ask for
that example.

Even when the PSU looks very similar, it is still not an
identical case. I can only assume you haven't been paying
close attention OR have never been in contact with many PC
PSU as it is in fact obvious by looking at one in person.

Yeah, only 30+ years in the business; 10+ in the PC PSU business.
Design the electronics well, and case design is not important.
As long as the metal gauge and finish meet your QC, go on to
important things.

If you don't pay attention to the case then would you not be
particularly unfit to assess this detail?

A whole dozen? Gee, what a grand sample. 12 supplies. That is
probably less than 5% of the makes/models on the market. Far less.
And are those brands from American manufacturers, or a off-shore
maker?

Actually no, you couldn't be more wrong. The vast majority
of PSU are made by a handful of manufacturers and
practically none of them in the US, including PC Power &
Cooling.

That was a dozen brands, more supplies, probably a few dozen
more but I haven't bothered to count them as they're not in
systems. I hate to break it to you but your idea of
experience is not worth anything if you don't have real
facts, only vague illusions about what you "ought" to know
but apparently don't.

Ah, on this subject I was thinking the exact thing of you. I'm sure
any current PSU manufacturing GMs out there that have read this thread
have gotten a chuckle out of your ill informed opinion.

I hope someday you actually get some hand on experience
instead of trying to spew BS to make a point you thought you
had. Fact is, anyone with access to several brands can
easily see what I meant. If you claim such an experience
with PC power supplies then you must be either lying or
blind such that you can't see details.

Probably just an armchair quarterback that has no
appreciation for the finer details of products. You can't
see those details well from web reviews can you?

 

[UCLAN]

I hate to break it to you but your idea of
experience is not worth anything if you don't have real
facts, only vague illusions about what you "ought" to know
but apparently don't.

As I have previously written, I retired a few years ago. No, I
didn't write down a master list of supplies with the same cases
(a fact that you are relying on for your argument), but my repair
department came upon them on a daily basis. (Being one of the few
sites that would repair *any* brand PSU, or even fit our PSU "guts"
into a proprietary PSU case, I saw dozens of different brand PSUs.)
So, be smug with your 12 or so different cases. In the real world,
what I am saying is correct. I think you know that.