Looking for motherboard

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My motherbaoard has blown and am looking for a repalacement. It can be second-hand or refurbished - the chepaer the better.



It is to replace a motherboard in a Dell Dimension E 520 (LGA 775, Pentium D 915 2.8GHz processor, chipset probably G965, power supply output 305W. Form factor BTX



I am considering the DEll motherboard, but I'd like something cheaper, mymachine is quite old.



Any references greatly received



PS. UK references

Hi,

There is a very detailed article detailing the Dell PPID system.

http://domino.bradycms.com/brady/TS...2266c8625704400416860/$FILE/13190_A-2D-06.pdf

'PPID –Piece Part Identification - A twenty digit bar code message that will contain the country of origin ISO
code, DELL Part Number, supplier identification code, date of manufacture and unique sequence number. Part
revision is identified by a separate three digit barcode'

Lots more information.

Regarding your point and the number of controlers (black vs. white connectors). Since I am thinking of taking the whole motherboard does this have anyimportance for my connections on installation?

You mention the CPU protection plate. Looking at my motherboard the plate that covers the cpu has a large hole the displays the back of the cpu. If I removed the cpu the mobo connections would be exposed. Not a problem for replacing the cpu, but transit without the cpu migh be problematic. Not important in my case.

Best wishes
 
Hi,

There is a very detailed article detailing the Dell PPID system.

http://domino.bradycms.com/brady/TS...2266c8625704400416860/$FILE/13190_A-2D-06.pdf

'PPID –Piece Part Identification - A twenty digit bar code message that will contain the country of origin ISO
code, DELL Part Number, supplier identification code, date of manufacture and unique sequence number. Part
revision is identified by a separate three digit barcode'

Lots more information.

Regarding your point and the number of controlers (black vs. white connectors). Since I am thinking of taking the whole motherboard does this have any importance for my connections on installation?

You mention the CPU protection plate. Looking at my motherboard the plate that covers the cpu has a large hole the displays the back of the cpu. If I removed the cpu the mobo connections would be exposed. Not a problem for replacing the cpu, but transit without the cpu migh be problematic. Not important in my case.

Best wishes

So the PPID does have unique sequence or serial number,
and perhaps that's where the numbers differ.

For the SATA port, try the same relative port as you
used before. If the pattern is the same shape and occupies
the same locations, maybe that'll be enough to get things
going.

The PNP cap, you can pick one of those up separately,
before shipping an LGA socketed motherboards. A CPU could
be used as a cover, but that's a rather expensive cover.

Paul
 
My motherbaoard has blown and am looking for a repalacement. It can be second-hand or refurbished - the chepaer the better.



It is to replace a motherboard in a Dell Dimension E 520 (LGA 775, Pentium D 915 2.8GHz processor, chipset probably G965, power supply output 305W. Form factor BTX



I am considering the DEll motherboard, but I'd like something cheaper, mymachine is quite old.



Any references greatly received



PS. UK references

I've had a better look at my motherboard.

There are four SATA connectors

Two close to the edge of the mobo (one blue, the other black).

Two on the other side of the white 24 pin socket (both black).

Does this mean two SATA controllers (blue and black). I assume the colour indicates a different use.

The board I am looking at for sale on the Net has the same blue and black connectors close to the edge, and a white and black connector on the other side of the 24 pin connector (looks like three SATA controllers in operation). I assume that it makes no difference to me which controller is in operation, especially if the latter two are not in use.

I noticed something interesting on the label (for sale item), it gave the PPID number and then said SILVERSTONE. I have used Google to try and find out what this means. It seems to be some sort of technology. Does this have any significance for me?

Thanks
 
I've had a better look at my motherboard.

There are four SATA connectors

Two close to the edge of the mobo (one blue, the other black).

Two on the other side of the white 24 pin socket (both black).

Does this mean two SATA controllers (blue and black). I assume
the colour indicates a different use.

The board I am looking at for sale on the Net has the same blue
and black connectors close to the edge, and a white and black
connector on the other side of the 24 pin connector (looks like
three SATA controllers in operation). I assume that it makes no
difference to me which controller is in operation, especially if
the latter two are not in use.

I noticed something interesting on the label (for sale item), it
gave the PPID number and then said SILVERSTONE. I have used Google
to try and find out what this means. It seems to be some sort of
technology. Does this have any significance for me?

Thanks

Let's go back to this picture as a reference.

http://www.teleful.com/media/catalo...8d6e5fb8d27136e95/d/e/dell_dimension_e520.jpg

What I see when I look at that picture is.

IDE
Connector
+-+
| |
| | +-----+
| | | ??? |
| | | |
| | +-----+
| |
| |
+-+
SATA SATA
(Blue) (Black)

Those three connectors and chip, work together.
You read the part number off the top of the square
chip, Google that, and it'll tell you what kind
of chip it is. It could be a JMicron or a VIA
storage controller.

The blue and black, tells me this is an "On The Go"
RAID setup. You connect a data drive to one connector,
a backup drive is connected to the second connector (whenever
you want to do a backup). The chip runs a soft RAID mirror,
such that one drive is mirrored to the other, on demand.
So when you want to back up the data drive, a second drive
gets connected to the SATA pair, and a sector by sector copy
is done.

That's what that section tells me. If the IDE connector
was not present, then it could be a Silicon Image 1:2
RAID setup. But with the IDE present, I'm guessing the
marketing department wanted IDE for a storage option,
and the two additional SATA connectors "came along for
the ride". Once you record the part number off the
chip I marked with the "???", we'll know more.

*******

The other section is the Southbridge. Notice that, there
is room for more than the two black connectors side by side.
A Southbridge has four or six ports. A six port Southbridge,
supports RAID, whereas a four port Southbridge typically
only supports independent disk drives. The silicon is
exactly the same inside - it is just the chip is configured
to restrict the ports and operating modes. (For example,
when they make ICH10 and ICH10R, it's the same chip, and
at some step when the chip is packaged, it is "programmed"
to have one personality or the other. Purchase price
in manufacturing, is $3 different between the two chip
options. That's what the "more capable" chip would have
cost Dell.)

There is room for four connectors. To save a piddly few pennies,
they decided to not solder the second set of connectors. Otherwise,
the silicon support for the additional two ports, is "free". As
the Southbridge is unlikely to have only two ports.

(Not
installed) BLACK
+-+ +-+
|S| |S|
|A| |A|
|T| |T|
|A| |A|
+-+ +-+

+-+ +-+ Southbridge
|S| |S| +------------+
|A| |A| | |
|T| |T| | |
|A| |A| | |
+-+ +-+ | |
(Not BLACK | |
installed) | |
+------------+

I'm guessing, your boot drive is connected to one of these two
black connectors.

Finding a detailed spec for your computer, would likely
identify how the storage works on it.

*******

I have no idea what "SILVERSTONE" means. It is a brand of
computer cases and power supplies, made by silverstonetek. But
other than that, the name doesn't ring a bell. Perhaps it is
an internal Intel name for the generation of hardware (chipset
or processor?).

Paul
 
My motherbaoard has blown and am looking for a repalacement. It can be second-hand or refurbished - the chepaer the better.



It is to replace a motherboard in a Dell Dimension E 520 (LGA 775, Pentium D 915 2.8GHz processor, chipset probably G965, power supply output 305W. Form factor BTX



I am considering the DEll motherboard, but I'd like something cheaper, my machine is quite old.



Any references greatly received



PS. UK references

I have used a magnifying glass to read the chip

Sigmatel
STAC92275X5 T48E-CA2 xxxxxx xxxx

I Used Google and found the part, but little in the way of description. It seems that this an audio chip. I assumed that its proxity to the SATA1 and SATA 0 that is was connected to these ports - not sure now.

Using the magnifying glass does help. I see clearly the STACK connectors you were referring to.
 
I have used a magnifying glass to read the chip

Sigmatel
STAC92275X5 T48E-CA2 xxxxxx xxxx

I Used Google and found the part, but little in the way of description. It seems that this an audio chip. I assumed that its proxity to the SATA1 and SATA 0 that is was connected to these ports - not sure now.

Using the magnifying glass does help. I see clearly the STACK connectors you were referring to.

I was just going by the shape and configuration of components.
Reading off the chip numbers is an integral part of that.
And you're right, STAC is audio (now owned by IDT as far
as I know, another semiconductor company).

So if all the connectors in those two areas, are connected to the
Southbridge, that doesn't explain why one of the four SATA ports
is blue, and the others black.

One thread I can find, says chipset is G965 and ICH8. Audio is
Sigmatel 9227 (that's the Stac thing).

This is a diagram (originated from Intel), for G965 and ICH8.
No IDE port.

http://xtreview.com/images/G965-nForce-650i-Ultra-SiS672FX/intel-g965.jpg

And the Dell spec says "floppy drive". An interesting choice.
They keep floppy, but don't bother with an IDE ?

So the config looks like this then. Still doesn't explain
the blue connector.

SuperI/O ----- Floppy (34 pin)

ICH8 ---- Black SATA5
---- Black SATA4
---- Black SATA1
---- Blue SATA0
----X (Connectors populated only
----X if ICH8R used - would be #2 and #3)

G965 ---- (dual channel RAM)
---- PCI Express slot for video etc

Does your computer manual for the Dell E520, mention the
blue connector at all ?

On page 68 here, the blue connector is port "SATA0".
So for some reason, maybe they want you to use that
one first ? I would have guessed the connectors
were relatively equal in function. Seems a poor reason
for the color pattern. (Some Dells, in this situation,
all the SATA connectors are different colors. No two alike.)

http://web.archive.org/web/20070303...t/edocs/systems/dimE520/en/OM_en/NH730A01.pdf

Paul
 
My motherbaoard has blown and am looking for a repalacement. It can be second-hand or refurbished - the chepaer the better.



It is to replace a motherboard in a Dell Dimension E 520 (LGA 775, Pentium D 915 2.8GHz processor, chipset probably G965, power supply output 305W. Form factor BTX



I am considering the DEll motherboard, but I'd like something cheaper, my machine is quite old.



Any references greatly received



PS. UK references

Hi Paul,

When I bought the pc from Dell, I received very little information - nothing regarding blue SATA ports.

I put SATA port colours into Google and found that many people are asking exactly the same question - what do these colours mean. I have not seen a definitive answer from the many advisors that have commented - it has generated some interest.
 
Hi Paul,

When I bought the pc from Dell, I received very little information - nothing regarding blue SATA ports.

I put SATA port colours into Google and found that many people are asking exactly the same question - what do these colours mean. I have not seen a definitive answer from the many advisors that have commented - it has generated some interest.

The blue port is SATA0.

And that fact should not be very important.

I would not expect the blue port to have any special properties.
It should be the same as the others.

Paul
 
The blue port is SATA0.

And that fact should not be very important.

I would not expect the blue port to have any special properties.
It should be the same as the others.

Paul

Not sure if the same thing applies, but my MSI has blue ports to
indicate that they are 6 Gb/s ports vs the current standard 3 Gb/s
sata ports. The blue ports are compatible to 3 Gb/s drives as I've
found even if I've reconfigured for future "in case".
 
generic said:
Not sure if the same thing applies, but my MSI has blue ports to
indicate that they are 6 Gb/s ports vs the current standard 3 Gb/s
sata ports. The blue ports are compatible to 3 Gb/s drives as I've
found even if I've reconfigured for future "in case".

I tried an analysis based on layout shape, but that turned out to
be wrong once we got the chip number off the square chip next to
the blue SATA port. The SATA ports on that motherboard, all seem
to be driven by the Southbridge. So the motherboard lacks a separate
chip. And the chipset is not modern enough for SATA III. Like my chipset,
it's still in the SATA II generation.

The chipset is G965 and ICH8, for Northbridge and Southbridge.

In the article here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_chipsets

the string "6 Gbit" appears in the LGA 1155 section of the tables.
So something in the P67 or later would be SATA III. That's the
chipset era, where the design was recalled because the Southbridge
actually had a design defect, and the "good" respin of the chipset
were revision "B3". Intel spent a few bucks cleaning that up...

Paul
 
I tried an analysis based on layout shape, but that turned out to
be wrong once we got the chip number off the square chip next to
the blue SATA port. The SATA ports on that motherboard, all seem
to be driven by the Southbridge. So the motherboard lacks a separate
chip. And the chipset is not modern enough for SATA III. Like my chipset,
it's still in the SATA II generation.

The chipset is G965 and ICH8, for Northbridge and Southbridge.

In the article here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_chipsets

the string "6 Gbit" appears in the LGA 1155 section of the tables.
So something in the P67 or later would be SATA III. That's the
chipset era, where the design was recalled because the Southbridge
actually had a design defect, and the "good" respin of the chipset
were revision "B3". Intel spent a few bucks cleaning that up...

Paul

Ah Ha. You're correct in that there is no difference between a blue
or white sata port; it's the chipset behind/connected to the port itself
that is the difference.

I think/hope my MSI Z77A-GD65 has the fix when I decided to update my
4 generation old system for video ripping/converting; no longer sure
if I'll be doing much of that now.
 
My motherbaoard has blown and am looking for a repalacement. It can be second-hand or refurbished - the chepaer the better.



It is to replace a motherboard in a Dell Dimension E 520 (LGA 775, Pentium D 915 2.8GHz processor, chipset probably G965, power supply output 305W. Form factor BTX



I am considering the DEll motherboard, but I'd like something cheaper, my machine is quite old.



Any references greatly received



PS. UK references

I have now acquired a refurbished E520 motherboard.

It came with an alcohol wipe. What needs wiping, its nice and clean.

It came with a battery as a separate. I don't know if this is a spare, or if I need to install it. It I need to install it, I assume that all setup information will be lost. I have no record of my set-up information, what can I put into set-up.

I note that the board came in an anti-static bag, so I need to take precautions. I have an earthing wire/shielding from a cable and can use this to ground myself to the case while installing the MB.

Hope the MB works.

Best wishes

Ps. I assume from the discussion that all those SATA ports, irrespective of colour, are all the same.
 
On Thu, 16 May 2013 04:59:15 -0700 (PDT),
It came with a battery as a separate. I don't know if this is a spare,
or if I need to install it. It I need to install it, I assume that all
setup information will be lost. I have no record of my set-up
information, what can I put into set-up.
--

Think you have to leave it off awhile before CMOS values revert to
their defaults. Perhaps not. Most all MB's, in the documentation,
provide the pin jumpers to wipe-it, anyway. Those batteries are good
for 5-10 years. Surprising it wasn't already slotted for you.

The thing to realize with some older MBs, is they may be somewhat
difficult to obtain -- in any event decidedly past their prime, as it
were. Times pass and a focus shifts to newer chip models dominating
production runs. Prime being the best results for the least valuation
when cost averaging. What, a year or two ago, now performs on par at
a third or half the cost unless, of course, the chosen elective is
conversely what offers twice, thrice performance at price parity, so
and within economic orders of determinate mercantilism.

Price lags, actually, may not be noticeably outstanding. Take, for
instance, XYZ computer commodities: such that, X brand is oldest, Y
mid-dated, with Z newest. What happens is instead of X brand dropping
to an arbitrary third at Y brands two-thirds valuation of the highest,
Z brand, rather, X may not factor entirely. The discrepancy between Y
and Z is effectively then narrowed across industry-wide terms. How I
saw that facilitated, in practise, was the X brand I had set a
predetermined value on was removed from the equation;- when I went
looking for X, I found the industry had shipped them to South America,
by the boatloads, where a fairer market share could be exacted over a
more reasonable expectancy, within ensuing means of one, such as was
given to me, to exercise on valid selection choice between Y and Z
solely.

There is, as well, a fault factor on brand X, a somewhat wide
discrepancy to consider in addition to quality driving marketing
competition, that being that quality may exhibit a drop-off as
production enters a terminal phase;- least to ignore the obvious, that
supportive material technology during a given phase-run model may be
predated by five or more years, meaning there's a greater chance of
associative decrepitude for materials then being presented at some
later time point from a good-as-new perspective.

A wide latitude, nevertheless, for in any sense of the personal
experience, although I have bought older but proven MBs for
replacement purposes, well past their prime, might I add, which did
not meet expectations.
 
I have now acquired a refurbished E520 motherboard.

It came with an alcohol wipe. What needs wiping, its nice and clean.

It came with a battery as a separate. I don't know if this is a spare, or if I need to install it. It I need to install it, I assume that all setup information will be lost. I have no record of my set-up information, what can I put into set-up.

I note that the board came in an anti-static bag, so I need to take precautions. I have an earthing wire/shielding from a cable and can use this to ground myself to the case while installing the MB.

Hope the MB works.

Best wishes

Ps. I assume from the discussion that all those SATA ports, irrespective of colour, are all the same.

As far as I'm concerned, they're all the same. If you find
it doesn't work, connect your boot device to the blue one.
But I really don't think it matters. It's just an Intel
Southbridge after all, not some crappy third-party controller.

If you have a multimeter, set your meter to 10 or 20VDC full-scale,
touch the red test lead to the top of the CR2032 battery (labeled
with a plus sign). Touch the black lead, to some shiny chassis metal,
such as the shiny metal on an I/O connector in the I/O plate area.
I use an unfilled screw hole back there, as a place to probe with
the black lead.

A new battery, will read slightly more than 3.0 volts.

A bad battery, will read 2.4V or less. Replace the battery
if it is less than 2.4V.

A lot of computers can be started, even if the battery is
flat, so for your first test, you don't have to worry about
that. There are cases of motherboards that refuse to start
with a flat battery - the battery is a backup device, and
the primary power source (ATX supply) should still allow
the motherboard to start.

Getting the battery out, can be a bit of a nuisance. It's
hard to manipulate the spring retainer, to get the battery
out. You want the computer unplugged, while doing it, because
the battery has a tendency to spring out and fall on the
motherboard. (It might short out stuff...)

When putting in the new battery, you can use a tissue or
gloves, to keep salty finger prints off the battery. That's
to help keep the battery contacts clean (corrosion). While
it probably doesn't make a difference, I keep them
clean while changing them. It adds to the fun.

The alcohol wipe might be intended for keeping the battery
clean, but that seems overkill.

An alcohol wipe might also be used for cleaning thermal paste
off the CPU top, but again, you'll likely need more materials
than that, to do the cleaning. Before you apply the fresh
thermal paste.

*******

For ESD protection, you can use one of these. How these differ
from "a piece of wire", is this strap contains a high
resistance path (~ 1 megohm or higher), to gently equalize
electric charge. You clip the red alligator clip, to an
I/O screw on the back of the computer. The other part,
fastens around your wrist.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103245

Paul
 
My motherbaoard has blown and am looking for a repalacement. It can be second-hand or refurbished - the chepaer the better.



It is to replace a motherboard in a Dell Dimension E 520 (LGA 775, Pentium D 915 2.8GHz processor, chipset probably G965, power supply output 305W. Form factor BTX



I am considering the DEll motherboard, but I'd like something cheaper, mymachine is quite old.



Any references greatly received



PS. UK references

Should I check before installing the motherboard to see if there is a battery in place - my guess is there is not, hence the supplied battery.

I don't have any paste to place on top of the processor. The interface contact should be alright (screws to the mobo). I might have some vasalene somewhere, but I doubt if you would recommend using this.

Could the wipe be for cleaning the RAM connectors (on RAM) or the cpu contacts (on the cpu, not mobo), videocard connectors, and other card connectorsbefore installing them into the 'new motherboard'?

I don't want to buy an earthing strap for a one-off job. But I will do my best to ensure I am at the same potential as the case, using the cable and touching the case often, and only handling the mobo at the edges.

I feel that I am getting close.

Best wishes.

Ps. On another point

I was reading a post where someone said that it is vital to fit Dell motherboards to Dell power supplies (I am) because the connections from the Dell power supply are non-standard. Any truth in this (it does not affect me, but is interesting, and a nuisance if true.)
 
Should I check before installing the motherboard to see if there is a battery in place - my guess is there is not, hence the supplied battery.

I don't have any paste to place on top of the processor. The interface contact should be alright (screws to the mobo). I might have some vasalene somewhere, but I doubt if you would recommend using this.

Could the wipe be for cleaning the RAM connectors (on RAM) or the cpu contacts (on the cpu, not mobo), videocard connectors, and other card connectors before installing them into the 'new motherboard'?

I don't want to buy an earthing strap for a one-off job. But I will do my best to ensure I am at the same potential as the case, using the cable and touching the case often, and only handling the mobo at the edges.

I feel that I am getting close.

Best wishes.

Ps. On another point

I was reading a post where someone said that it is vital to fit Dell motherboards to Dell power supplies (I am) because the connections from the Dell power supply are non-standard. Any truth in this (it does not affect me, but is interesting, and a nuisance if true.)

In our favorite reference picture here, the CR2032
is located underneath the first letter "n" in the word
"Technology". That red text that overlays the photo.
The compressible tab, is at 12 o'clock in the photo.

http://www.teleful.com/media/catalo...8d6e5fb8d27136e95/d/e/dell_dimension_e520.jpg

*******

Vaseline is not a substitute for proper thermal paste.
It helps if the carrier actively resists being pumped out.
For example, water would work, but the water would
dry out and then you'd be left with an air gap.

Even some materials intended to be thermal pastes, are
not recommended (zinc paste in particular, not because
of the zinc, but because the carrier oil is way too thin).

On a couple pastes, they made the mistake of making the
carrier too thick. People found they couldn't spread the
materials properly.

Good materials, have one of the high thermal conductivity
ceramic particles included. Things like alumina or boron
nitride. These are ground to a small size, in the microns
range, to fit cracks and crevices. Industrial diamond is
also a potent solution, but would probably cost too much
to make the paste.

*******

Keep the alcohol wipe, for your next order of chicken wings :-)

No need to waste it on the computer.

*******

Dell made computers with non-standard power supplies, for a short
period of time (a couple years perhaps). Now, they're standard pinout.

You can compare the wire colors on the main connector, to
one of the ATX standards. Each of these docs, has a table of
wire colors.

(20 pin standard, back when the supply offered -5V as well. You
likely don't have one of these.)
http://web.archive.org/web/20030424...org/developer/specs/atx/ATX_ATX12V_PS_1_1.pdf

(20 pin modern)
http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/atx/ATX12V_1_3dg.pdf

(24 pin modern)
http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/ATX12V_PSDG_2_2_public_br2.pdf

HTH,
Paul
 
My motherbaoard has blown and am looking for a repalacement. It can be second-hand or refurbished - the chepaer the better.



It is to replace a motherboard in a Dell Dimension E 520 (LGA 775, Pentium D 915 2.8GHz processor, chipset probably G965, power supply output 305W. Form factor BTX



I am considering the DEll motherboard, but I'd like something cheaper, my machine is quite old.



Any references greatly received



PS. UK references

I hope its alright to install the heat sink without paste. I'll attempt to clean the surfaces, but if it proves difficult I'll just bolt the sink to the processor.
 
My motherbaoard has blown and am looking for a repalacement. It can be second-hand or refurbished - the chepaer the better.



It is to replace a motherboard in a Dell Dimension E 520 (LGA 775, Pentium D 915 2.8GHz processor, chipset probably G965, power supply output 305W. Form factor BTX



I am considering the DEll motherboard, but I'd like something cheaper, my machine is quite old.



Any references greatly received



PS. UK references

I have had a look at my existing motherboard and now know what the battery looks like. I thought that I was looking at a cover, but I am in fact looking at the battery.

The refurbished board has a battery fitted, and they supplied a spare (I am surprised).

The compound that covers the back of the cpu and the heatsink interface could probably be removed with effort and a little moisture, but I am wondering if it is best left in place. It is hard of course but will interface with its counterpart.
 
I hope its alright to install the heat sink without paste.
I'll attempt to clean the surfaces, but if it proves difficult I'll
just bolt the sink to the processor.

-
Negatory.

As others have before you, improperly installing or forgetting the CPU
cooler, you run a high risk of burning up and destroying your CPU
without paste between the heatsink to transfer heat off and away from
the CPU.

Reconsider, read up or find a youtube video if necessary. It's
critical when building the PC, that cooling for the CPU properly
addressed.
 
My motherbaoard has blown and am looking for a repalacement. It can be second-hand or refurbished - the chepaer the better.



It is to replace a motherboard in a Dell Dimension E 520 (LGA 775, Pentium D 915 2.8GHz processor, chipset probably G965, power supply output 305W. Form factor BTX



I am considering the DEll motherboard, but I'd like something cheaper, my machine is quite old.



Any references greatly received



PS. UK references

Looks like paste is vital.

Pity, because I only need a smear.

The only cleaning materials I have are white spirit and water. I hope one of these will remove the hard paste. I wonder if that alcohol wipe they sent me was for cleaning the cpu/heatsink intereface - probably not.

Since I only need a little paste can you recommend a substance that would do. It appears that vasaline is not to be recommended, although on Youtube someone used this combined with toothpaste - the latter sounds bizzare.

Best wishes
 
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