Just out of curiosity who here will upgrade to Vista as soon as it comes out?

[Bill Sanderson MVP]

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/lifecycle/default.mspx


--

 

[Guest]

Though Bill's link answers the question you've asked, this is really the more
important link from a value perspective.
http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3221

What this means is that if you purchase a new PC in the period following
Vista's release (planned for January 2007) with Windows XP, it will have less
then two years lifetime remaining. Once it is finally upgraded, you will also
have less lifetime remaining in the Vista product.

Generally, once a new OS version is released, the value of on the shelf
copies of the preceding OS plummets as more and more normal people do the
normal thing, buy the most current product available.

It's also funny how no one here seems to get that this product has already
been in wide distribution on many current and older platforms for several
months, unlike any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would normally
be found post release have already been fixed and the entire process itself
was different in terms of quality, especially in terms of security.

Just like Windows 2000 can't be secured effectively to anywhere near the
level of Win XP SP2, nor can XP be raised to anywhere near the level of
Vista, no matter how many updates it receives.

I don't advocate running out immediately to upgrade a 3+ year old PC to
Vista, but I also wouldn't waste money buying an old OS version when I
purchase a new PC, especially since it won't allow me to get the most out of
my hardware investment.

Bitman

 

[Pat Willener]

I am perfectly happy with XP-SP2, but my next PC will probably come with
Vista. I will certainly not upgrade any existing systems.

 

[Alan]

Hi Bitman and Bill,

I can understand the logic of not buying a "stale" product.

Bitman, you state: "....this product [Vista] has already been in wide
distribution on many current and older platforms for several months, unlike
any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would normally be found post
release have already been fixed and the entire process itself was different
in terms of quality, especially in terms of security."

IE7 was in various phases of Beta testing for a long time, too. But when I
go into the microsoft.public.internetexplorer.general newsgroup, I shudder
when I read what has happened to so many, many people with what should have
been an easy upgrade from IE6.

I have never thought of using anything but Microsoft products, when
available. (In fact, in the mid-90s, I was in PSS at a Microsoft
call-center.)

But on Saturday night, I installed Firefox 2.0 in less than 5 minutes, and
it works perfectly.

As I get older I try to make things in my life easier. Why should I spend
hours/days trying to get an Internet browser to install/work/not mess up my
computer?

Alan

 

[Bill Sanderson MVP]

Did you install IE7? What was your experience with that? Newsgroups are
there for folks who are having a problem. Even a very small fraction of the
IE7 adopters would amount to a very large number of forum posts.

--

Hi Bitman and Bill,

I can understand the logic of not buying a "stale" product.

Bitman, you state: "....this product [Vista] has already been in wide
distribution on many current and older platforms for several months,
unlike any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would normally be
found post release have already been fixed and the entire process itself
was different in terms of quality, especially in terms of security."

IE7 was in various phases of Beta testing for a long time, too. But when I
go into the microsoft.public.internetexplorer.general newsgroup, I shudder
when I read what has happened to so many, many people with what should
have been an easy upgrade from IE6.

I have never thought of using anything but Microsoft products, when
available. (In fact, in the mid-90s, I was in PSS at a Microsoft
call-center.)

But on Saturday night, I installed Firefox 2.0 in less than 5 minutes,
and it works perfectly.

As I get older I try to make things in my life easier. Why should I spend
hours/days trying to get an Internet browser to install/work/not mess up
my computer?

Alan

Though Bill's link answers the question you've asked, this is really the
more
important link from a value perspective.
http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3221

What this means is that if you purchase a new PC in the period following
Vista's release (planned for January 2007) with Windows XP, it will have
less
then two years lifetime remaining. Once it is finally upgraded, you will
also
have less lifetime remaining in the Vista product.

Generally, once a new OS version is released, the value of on the shelf
copies of the preceding OS plummets as more and more normal people do the
normal thing, buy the most current product available.

It's also funny how no one here seems to get that this product has
already
been in wide distribution on many current and older platforms for several
months, unlike any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would
normally
be found post release have already been fixed and the entire process
itself
was different in terms of quality, especially in terms of security.

Just like Windows 2000 can't be secured effectively to anywhere near the
level of Win XP SP2, nor can XP be raised to anywhere near the level of
Vista, no matter how many updates it receives.

I don't advocate running out immediately to upgrade a 3+ year old PC to
Vista, but I also wouldn't waste money buying an old OS version when I
purchase a new PC, especially since it won't allow me to get the most out
of
my hardware investment.

Bitman

 

[Alan]

Hello Bill,

Did I install IE7?? Surely, you jest. :>

Why would I ever be foolhardy enough to install what appears to be such a
problematic piece of software on the chance that it _MIGHT_ work out okay?

I don't have a test machine. The PC I'm using is my one and only, and I'm
not in any mood to get cut off from the world, while I try to figure out
what to do next.

I agree: Most newsgroup posts, regardless of the product, tend to be written
by those who are having -- or have had -- problems.

Still, I don't feel like being one of the lab rats for whom the newest
clinical trial drug doesn't work, and, indeed, worsens the symptoms -- or
kills the rat outright.

I suppose I do wonder, though -- if so many of these "known issues" (as
Microsoft used to tell us in PSS the proper way to refer to bugs) with IE7
were known during testing -- why Microsoft just released it the way they
did, and left so many poor unsuspecting users to deal with the mess?

Alan

Did you install IE7? What was your experience with that? Newsgroups are
there for folks who are having a problem. Even a very small fraction of
the IE7 adopters would amount to a very large number of forum posts.

--

Hi Bitman and Bill,

I can understand the logic of not buying a "stale" product.

Bitman, you state: "....this product [Vista] has already been in wide
distribution on many current and older platforms for several months,
unlike any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would normally be
found post release have already been fixed and the entire process itself
was different in terms of quality, especially in terms of security."

IE7 was in various phases of Beta testing for a long time, too. But when
I go into the microsoft.public.internetexplorer.general newsgroup, I
shudder when I read what has happened to so many, many people with what
should have been an easy upgrade from IE6.

I have never thought of using anything but Microsoft products, when
available. (In fact, in the mid-90s, I was in PSS at a Microsoft
call-center.)

But on Saturday night, I installed Firefox 2.0 in less than 5 minutes,
and it works perfectly.

As I get older I try to make things in my life easier. Why should I spend
hours/days trying to get an Internet browser to install/work/not mess up
my computer?

Alan

Though Bill's link answers the question you've asked, this is really the
more
important link from a value perspective.
http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3221

What this means is that if you purchase a new PC in the period following
Vista's release (planned for January 2007) with Windows XP, it will have
less
then two years lifetime remaining. Once it is finally upgraded, you will
also
have less lifetime remaining in the Vista product.

Generally, once a new OS version is released, the value of on the shelf
copies of the preceding OS plummets as more and more normal people do
the
normal thing, buy the most current product available.

It's also funny how no one here seems to get that this product has
already
been in wide distribution on many current and older platforms for
several
months, unlike any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would
normally
be found post release have already been fixed and the entire process
itself
was different in terms of quality, especially in terms of security.

Just like Windows 2000 can't be secured effectively to anywhere near the
level of Win XP SP2, nor can XP be raised to anywhere near the level of
Vista, no matter how many updates it receives.

I don't advocate running out immediately to upgrade a 3+ year old PC to
Vista, but I also wouldn't waste money buying an old OS version when I
purchase a new PC, especially since it won't allow me to get the most
out of
my hardware investment.

Bitman

:

Hi Engel,

Actually, my point was whether people could "opt out" of getting a
machine
with Vista and request one with XP until Vista's Service Pack 19 or so.
:>

From what you posted, it sounds as if users can get XP from Dell until
March
15, 2007, and then they can decide if they REALLY want to update the
O/S to
Vista.

I wonder if I should buy a whole lot of XP CD's now and offer them to
the
highest bidder on EBay, once users no longer have a choice.

Alan

Hello Alan,

FWIW
Receive an Express Upgrade to Windows Vista when you buy a qualifying
PC
running Windows XP Media Center Edition, Windows XP Tablet PC
Edition, or
Windows XP Professional

If you're in the market for a new computer this holiday season, be
sure to
ask your retailer about the Express Upgrade to Windows Vista, being
offered
by participating PC manufacturers. When you buy a qualifying Windows
Vista
Capable PC between October 26, 2006 and March 15, 2007, you may be
eligible
for an Express Upgrade to Windows Vista.

Don't wait to enjoy the benefits of owning a new PC. Buying a Premium
Ready
Windows Vista Capable PC means you can buy a great Windows XP
computer
today, with the confidence that it will easily upgrade to the Windows
Vista
edition of your choice. Express Upgrade to Windows Vista offers from
participating PC manufacturers will ensure you can easily enjoy
Windows XP
today and Windows Vista when it's available.

Express Upgrade to Windows Vista offers are available from
participating
computer manufacturers, including those from the list below.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/getready/expressupgrade.mspx

Enjoy
--
:

I'm wondering if someone purchases a new machine from Dell once
Vista
officially releases, will they have the choice of still going with
XP or
will they be _forced_ to buy a machine with Vista?

Alan

I am telling everyone I know who is thinking of getting a New
Computer
to
get
it before the New Year.

Get the most powerful computer you can with Windows XP.
Wait out the the Gold/Gamma release of Vista for at least 6 months
to a
Year
before upgrading so the bugs can get worked out.

I myself will be waiting till the Delta release (SP1).

?
Tim
Geek w/o Portfolio
"Only the Paranoid Survive"


:

just wondering

 

[Guest]

Hi Alan,

I want to make one thing very clear, I'm not simply being 'pro Microsoft' or
pushing particular products as such, I'm simply indicating the importance of
these moves based on observations of Malware Removal forums and other
technical details.

The issue with Internet Explorer is specifically that it is so tightly woven
into the operating system itself, which makes it both a target of exploits
and very difficult to patch/fix once it's been compromised. This fact has led
to many malware that have taken control of affected systems. sometimes
without the knowledge of the PC owner/user. This is why it's so important
that IE 7 be installed, regardless of the temporary pain to some users and
thus Microsoft itself, which they fully understand.

Since Firefox is really nothing but a simple GUI application it avoids these
issues entirely, but also does absolutely nothing to mitigate them either. It
simply avoids the risk of ActiveX application operation by denying its
existence altogether, which can just as easily be done within IE by setting
all ActiveX controls to 'Disabled' resulting in the same problematic issues
with some sites which require it.

The point is that with IE 6 still on your PC, you are at risk from many of
its vulnerabilities no matter what else you attempt to do to mitigate them,
since other entry points like email, IM or social engineering can be used to
exploit them. What the IE 7 update really does is 'patch' the operating
system itself while improving the user's control over the entry of add-ons
and changes like Home Page settings.

The sad fact is, that those who don't perform this necessary upgrade of a
portion of the OS will become the primary targets of those attempting to gain
access for whatever reason, simply because their defenses are weaker. This is
exactly the same thing that happened following the initial deployment of Win
XP Service Pack 2, since the exploits of the older version are already well
known.

This is why I indicate move or loose with Vista also, since over time the
remaining holes in Windows XP will become better understood, resulting in
them becoming a favored target of exploits. The stronger security profile of
Vista means that vulnerabilities should be more difficult to exploit even if
they exist, so an exploit discovered in both XP and Vista will not always
have the same impact on both operating systems, just as was true with Win XP
SP2 before it.

The problem for Microsoft is that consumers really don't undertand any of
this and often see it exactly like you do, that Internet Explorer and Firefox
are equivalent, which combined with normal procrastination will result in
delays in performing the required upgrade to IE 7.

This weekend I performed IE 7 and Defender upgrades on every system I help
support and informed several others who also performed the upgrade without
incident. Remember that the problems that are brought to any forum or
newsgroup will often affect only a small number of users or even just that
single individual, but they sound equivalent to a worldwide issue, especially
to the user(s) involved. If your own PC has no known issues, it's not really
that likely that problems will occur.

Bitman

Hi Bitman and Bill,

I can understand the logic of not buying a "stale" product.

Bitman, you state: "....this product [Vista] has already been in wide
distribution on many current and older platforms for several months, unlike
any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would normally be found post
release have already been fixed and the entire process itself was different
in terms of quality, especially in terms of security."

IE7 was in various phases of Beta testing for a long time, too. But when I
go into the microsoft.public.internetexplorer.general newsgroup, I shudder
when I read what has happened to so many, many people with what should have
been an easy upgrade from IE6.

I have never thought of using anything but Microsoft products, when
available. (In fact, in the mid-90s, I was in PSS at a Microsoft
call-center.)

But on Saturday night, I installed Firefox 2.0 in less than 5 minutes, and
it works perfectly.

As I get older I try to make things in my life easier. Why should I spend
hours/days trying to get an Internet browser to install/work/not mess up my
computer?

Alan

Though Bill's link answers the question you've asked, this is really the
more
important link from a value perspective.
http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3221

What this means is that if you purchase a new PC in the period following
Vista's release (planned for January 2007) with Windows XP, it will have
less
then two years lifetime remaining. Once it is finally upgraded, you will
also
have less lifetime remaining in the Vista product.

Generally, once a new OS version is released, the value of on the shelf
copies of the preceding OS plummets as more and more normal people do the
normal thing, buy the most current product available.

It's also funny how no one here seems to get that this product has already
been in wide distribution on many current and older platforms for several
months, unlike any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would
normally
be found post release have already been fixed and the entire process
itself
was different in terms of quality, especially in terms of security.

Just like Windows 2000 can't be secured effectively to anywhere near the
level of Win XP SP2, nor can XP be raised to anywhere near the level of
Vista, no matter how many updates it receives.

I don't advocate running out immediately to upgrade a 3+ year old PC to
Vista, but I also wouldn't waste money buying an old OS version when I
purchase a new PC, especially since it won't allow me to get the most out
of
my hardware investment.

Bitman

 

[Alan]

Hi Bitman,

I appreciate your detailed explanation and reasoning for why IE7 is
important. I have to say -- after reading your thoughtful response -- that
I'm now at least _thinking_ about trying IE7.

My PC is well patched, and I have a variety of anti-malware apps installed
on it, which I run faithfully.

Hmmmm....okay.....I think I'll take the plunge. And if I can't get to this
newsgroup after the IE7 install, I'll "borrow" my son's computer to contact
this newsgroup and let you know that I'm in deep poop. :>

Alan

Hi Alan,

I want to make one thing very clear, I'm not simply being 'pro Microsoft'
or
pushing particular products as such, I'm simply indicating the importance
of
these moves based on observations of Malware Removal forums and other
technical details.

The issue with Internet Explorer is specifically that it is so tightly
woven
into the operating system itself, which makes it both a target of exploits
and very difficult to patch/fix once it's been compromised. This fact has
led
to many malware that have taken control of affected systems. sometimes
without the knowledge of the PC owner/user. This is why it's so important
that IE 7 be installed, regardless of the temporary pain to some users and
thus Microsoft itself, which they fully understand.

Since Firefox is really nothing but a simple GUI application it avoids
these
issues entirely, but also does absolutely nothing to mitigate them either.
It
simply avoids the risk of ActiveX application operation by denying its
existence altogether, which can just as easily be done within IE by
setting
all ActiveX controls to 'Disabled' resulting in the same problematic
issues
with some sites which require it.

The point is that with IE 6 still on your PC, you are at risk from many of
its vulnerabilities no matter what else you attempt to do to mitigate
them,
since other entry points like email, IM or social engineering can be used
to
exploit them. What the IE 7 update really does is 'patch' the operating
system itself while improving the user's control over the entry of add-ons
and changes like Home Page settings.

The sad fact is, that those who don't perform this necessary upgrade of a
portion of the OS will become the primary targets of those attempting to
gain
access for whatever reason, simply because their defenses are weaker. This
is
exactly the same thing that happened following the initial deployment of
Win
XP Service Pack 2, since the exploits of the older version are already
well
known.

This is why I indicate move or loose with Vista also, since over time the
remaining holes in Windows XP will become better understood, resulting in
them becoming a favored target of exploits. The stronger security profile
of
Vista means that vulnerabilities should be more difficult to exploit even
if
they exist, so an exploit discovered in both XP and Vista will not always
have the same impact on both operating systems, just as was true with Win
XP
SP2 before it.

The problem for Microsoft is that consumers really don't undertand any of
this and often see it exactly like you do, that Internet Explorer and
Firefox
are equivalent, which combined with normal procrastination will result in
delays in performing the required upgrade to IE 7.

This weekend I performed IE 7 and Defender upgrades on every system I help
support and informed several others who also performed the upgrade without
incident. Remember that the problems that are brought to any forum or
newsgroup will often affect only a small number of users or even just that
single individual, but they sound equivalent to a worldwide issue,
especially
to the user(s) involved. If your own PC has no known issues, it's not
really
that likely that problems will occur.

Bitman

Hi Bitman and Bill,

I can understand the logic of not buying a "stale" product.

Bitman, you state: "....this product [Vista] has already been in wide
distribution on many current and older platforms for several months,
unlike
any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would normally be found
post
release have already been fixed and the entire process itself was
different
in terms of quality, especially in terms of security."

IE7 was in various phases of Beta testing for a long time, too. But when
I
go into the microsoft.public.internetexplorer.general newsgroup, I
shudder
when I read what has happened to so many, many people with what should
have
been an easy upgrade from IE6.

I have never thought of using anything but Microsoft products, when
available. (In fact, in the mid-90s, I was in PSS at a Microsoft
call-center.)

But on Saturday night, I installed Firefox 2.0 in less than 5 minutes,
and
it works perfectly.

As I get older I try to make things in my life easier. Why should I spend
hours/days trying to get an Internet browser to install/work/not mess up
my
computer?

Alan

Though Bill's link answers the question you've asked, this is really
the
more
important link from a value perspective.
http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3221

What this means is that if you purchase a new PC in the period
following
Vista's release (planned for January 2007) with Windows XP, it will
have
less
then two years lifetime remaining. Once it is finally upgraded, you
will
also
have less lifetime remaining in the Vista product.

Generally, once a new OS version is released, the value of on the shelf
copies of the preceding OS plummets as more and more normal people do
the
normal thing, buy the most current product available.

It's also funny how no one here seems to get that this product has
already
been in wide distribution on many current and older platforms for
several
months, unlike any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would
normally
be found post release have already been fixed and the entire process
itself
was different in terms of quality, especially in terms of security.

Just like Windows 2000 can't be secured effectively to anywhere near
the
level of Win XP SP2, nor can XP be raised to anywhere near the level of
Vista, no matter how many updates it receives.

I don't advocate running out immediately to upgrade a 3+ year old PC to
Vista, but I also wouldn't waste money buying an old OS version when I
purchase a new PC, especially since it won't allow me to get the most
out
of
my hardware investment.

Bitman

:

Hi Engel,

Actually, my point was whether people could "opt out" of getting a
machine
with Vista and request one with XP until Vista's Service Pack 19 or
so.
:>

From what you posted, it sounds as if users can get XP from Dell until
March
15, 2007, and then they can decide if they REALLY want to update the
O/S
to
Vista.

I wonder if I should buy a whole lot of XP CD's now and offer them to
the
highest bidder on EBay, once users no longer have a choice.

Alan

Hello Alan,

FWIW
Receive an Express Upgrade to Windows Vista when you buy a
qualifying
PC
running Windows XP Media Center Edition, Windows XP Tablet PC
Edition,
or
Windows XP Professional

If you're in the market for a new computer this holiday season, be
sure
to
ask your retailer about the Express Upgrade to Windows Vista, being
offered
by participating PC manufacturers. When you buy a qualifying Windows
Vista
Capable PC between October 26, 2006 and March 15, 2007, you may be
eligible
for an Express Upgrade to Windows Vista.

Don't wait to enjoy the benefits of owning a new PC. Buying a
Premium
Ready
Windows Vista Capable PC means you can buy a great Windows XP
computer
today, with the confidence that it will easily upgrade to the
Windows
Vista
edition of your choice. Express Upgrade to Windows Vista offers from
participating PC manufacturers will ensure you can easily enjoy
Windows
XP
today and Windows Vista when it's available.

Express Upgrade to Windows Vista offers are available from
participating
computer manufacturers, including those from the list below.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/getready/expressupgrade.mspx

Enjoy
--
:

I'm wondering if someone purchases a new machine from Dell once
Vista
officially releases, will they have the choice of still going with
XP
or
will they be _forced_ to buy a machine with Vista?

Alan

I am telling everyone I know who is thinking of getting a New
Computer
to
get
it before the New Year.

Get the most powerful computer you can with Windows XP.
Wait out the the Gold/Gamma release of Vista for at least 6
months
to a
Year
before upgrading so the bugs can get worked out.

I myself will be waiting till the Delta release (SP1).

?
Tim
Geek w/o Portfolio
"Only the Paranoid Survive"


:

just wondering

 

[Guest]

Hi Alan,

The key with any upgrade to the OS is to insure that you have the time
available to back out the installation and backup of important data to
perform a complete reinstall in the [rare] event something goes drastically
wrong.

That's why I performed my uprgrades while I was visiting family for the
weekend. I did the upgrades on Saturday with Sunday available for backout,
though I expected no problems and had none. I'm probably far more anal about
planning than even you, but I understand the risks and the probability of
problems better too, from years of systems administration and management in
business/education.

Paranoia in moderation is good, as long as it's tempered with an
understanding of the real technical purposes behind any change when it comes
to computers. There are no hard and fast rules since every case is different,
I simply argue with those defining specific rules based on old data from
times gone by, the computing world is changing too fast for something so
rigid to work.

If you're comfortable that you are prepared to take the 'small' risk that
this upgrade represents, then you're ready to take the plunge in my book.

Bitman

Hi Bitman,

I appreciate your detailed explanation and reasoning for why IE7 is
important. I have to say -- after reading your thoughtful response -- that
I'm now at least _thinking_ about trying IE7.

My PC is well patched, and I have a variety of anti-malware apps installed
on it, which I run faithfully.

Hmmmm....okay.....I think I'll take the plunge. And if I can't get to this
newsgroup after the IE7 install, I'll "borrow" my son's computer to contact
this newsgroup and let you know that I'm in deep poop. :>

Alan

Hi Alan,

I want to make one thing very clear, I'm not simply being 'pro Microsoft'
or
pushing particular products as such, I'm simply indicating the importance
of
these moves based on observations of Malware Removal forums and other
technical details.

The issue with Internet Explorer is specifically that it is so tightly
woven
into the operating system itself, which makes it both a target of exploits
and very difficult to patch/fix once it's been compromised. This fact has
led
to many malware that have taken control of affected systems. sometimes
without the knowledge of the PC owner/user. This is why it's so important
that IE 7 be installed, regardless of the temporary pain to some users and
thus Microsoft itself, which they fully understand.

Since Firefox is really nothing but a simple GUI application it avoids
these
issues entirely, but also does absolutely nothing to mitigate them either.
It
simply avoids the risk of ActiveX application operation by denying its
existence altogether, which can just as easily be done within IE by
setting
all ActiveX controls to 'Disabled' resulting in the same problematic
issues
with some sites which require it.

The point is that with IE 6 still on your PC, you are at risk from many of
its vulnerabilities no matter what else you attempt to do to mitigate
them,
since other entry points like email, IM or social engineering can be used
to
exploit them. What the IE 7 update really does is 'patch' the operating
system itself while improving the user's control over the entry of add-ons
and changes like Home Page settings.

The sad fact is, that those who don't perform this necessary upgrade of a
portion of the OS will become the primary targets of those attempting to
gain
access for whatever reason, simply because their defenses are weaker. This
is
exactly the same thing that happened following the initial deployment of
Win
XP Service Pack 2, since the exploits of the older version are already
well
known.

This is why I indicate move or loose with Vista also, since over time the
remaining holes in Windows XP will become better understood, resulting in
them becoming a favored target of exploits. The stronger security profile
of
Vista means that vulnerabilities should be more difficult to exploit even
if
they exist, so an exploit discovered in both XP and Vista will not always
have the same impact on both operating systems, just as was true with Win
XP
SP2 before it.

The problem for Microsoft is that consumers really don't undertand any of
this and often see it exactly like you do, that Internet Explorer and
Firefox
are equivalent, which combined with normal procrastination will result in
delays in performing the required upgrade to IE 7.

This weekend I performed IE 7 and Defender upgrades on every system I help
support and informed several others who also performed the upgrade without
incident. Remember that the problems that are brought to any forum or
newsgroup will often affect only a small number of users or even just that
single individual, but they sound equivalent to a worldwide issue,
especially
to the user(s) involved. If your own PC has no known issues, it's not
really
that likely that problems will occur.

Bitman

Hi Bitman and Bill,

I can understand the logic of not buying a "stale" product.

Bitman, you state: "....this product [Vista] has already been in wide
distribution on many current and older platforms for several months,
unlike
any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would normally be found
post
release have already been fixed and the entire process itself was
different
in terms of quality, especially in terms of security."

IE7 was in various phases of Beta testing for a long time, too. But when
I
go into the microsoft.public.internetexplorer.general newsgroup, I
shudder
when I read what has happened to so many, many people with what should
have
been an easy upgrade from IE6.

I have never thought of using anything but Microsoft products, when
available. (In fact, in the mid-90s, I was in PSS at a Microsoft
call-center.)

But on Saturday night, I installed Firefox 2.0 in less than 5 minutes,
and
it works perfectly.

As I get older I try to make things in my life easier. Why should I spend
hours/days trying to get an Internet browser to install/work/not mess up
my
computer?

Alan

Though Bill's link answers the question you've asked, this is really
the
more
important link from a value perspective.
http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3221

What this means is that if you purchase a new PC in the period
following
Vista's release (planned for January 2007) with Windows XP, it will
have
less
then two years lifetime remaining. Once it is finally upgraded, you
will
also
have less lifetime remaining in the Vista product.

Generally, once a new OS version is released, the value of on the shelf
copies of the preceding OS plummets as more and more normal people do
the
normal thing, buy the most current product available.

It's also funny how no one here seems to get that this product has
already
been in wide distribution on many current and older platforms for
several
months, unlike any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would
normally
be found post release have already been fixed and the entire process
itself
was different in terms of quality, especially in terms of security.

Just like Windows 2000 can't be secured effectively to anywhere near
the
level of Win XP SP2, nor can XP be raised to anywhere near the level of
Vista, no matter how many updates it receives.

I don't advocate running out immediately to upgrade a 3+ year old PC to
Vista, but I also wouldn't waste money buying an old OS version when I
purchase a new PC, especially since it won't allow me to get the most
out
of
my hardware investment.

Bitman

:

Hi Engel,

Actually, my point was whether people could "opt out" of getting a
machine
with Vista and request one with XP until Vista's Service Pack 19 or
so.
:>

From what you posted, it sounds as if users can get XP from Dell until
March
15, 2007, and then they can decide if they REALLY want to update the
O/S
to
Vista.

I wonder if I should buy a whole lot of XP CD's now and offer them to
the
highest bidder on EBay, once users no longer have a choice.

Alan

Hello Alan,

FWIW
Receive an Express Upgrade to Windows Vista when you buy a
qualifying
PC
running Windows XP Media Center Edition, Windows XP Tablet PC
Edition,
or
Windows XP Professional

If you're in the market for a new computer this holiday season, be
sure
to
ask your retailer about the Express Upgrade to Windows Vista, being
offered
by participating PC manufacturers. When you buy a qualifying Windows
Vista
Capable PC between October 26, 2006 and March 15, 2007, you may be
eligible
for an Express Upgrade to Windows Vista.

Don't wait to enjoy the benefits of owning a new PC. Buying a
Premium
Ready
Windows Vista Capable PC means you can buy a great Windows XP
computer
today, with the confidence that it will easily upgrade to the
Windows
Vista
edition of your choice. Express Upgrade to Windows Vista offers from
participating PC manufacturers will ensure you can easily enjoy
Windows
XP
today and Windows Vista when it's available.

Express Upgrade to Windows Vista offers are available from
participating
computer manufacturers, including those from the list below.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/getready/expressupgrade.mspx

Enjoy
--
:

I'm wondering if someone purchases a new machine from Dell once
Vista
officially releases, will they have the choice of still going with
XP
or
will they be _forced_ to buy a machine with Vista?

Alan

I am telling everyone I know who is thinking of getting a New
Computer
to
get
it before the New Year.

Get the most powerful computer you can with Windows XP.
Wait out the the Gold/Gamma release of Vista for at least 6
months
to a
Year
before upgrading so the bugs can get worked out.

I myself will be waiting till the Delta release (SP1).

?
Tim
Geek w/o Portfolio
"Only the Paranoid Survive"


:

just wondering

 

[robin]

">

I don't advocate running out immediately to upgrade a 3+ year old PC to
Vista, but I also wouldn't waste money buying an old OS version when I
purchase a new PC, especially since it won't allow me to get the most out
of
my hardware investment.

I agree with not running out and upgrading a 3+ pc computer running XP
because in the long run it will cost you more to upgrade it (via hardware
and software). It would be cost effective to just add a few 100 bucks to buy
a new one but if I needed a new computer right now because mine died, I
would get it with xp but have it "Vista Premium Compatible" not just "Vista
Compatable". The ones that are coming out now that say they are "Vista
Compatable" can only run the watered down version of Vista without Aero. To
me that would be a waste if you wanted to get Aero because you would now
again need to update.
A client of mine (before he became a client) purchased a Vista Compatable
computer. I ran the Vista Update Advisory on it and found it needs an
updated Audio Card and a few programs that he has on it now will not run on
Vista. He would have to go to the manufacturer and hopefully the
manufacturer will give him an upgrade without costing him more money.
So the only way I would purchase a computer now is if it was Vista Premium
not Vista Compatable.

robin

 

[Bill Sanderson MVP]

You are one of a much smaller number of "lab rats" for the trial you did
choose.

I haven't deployed IE7 broadly yet, mostly due to lack of time to get to the
installs, but I've had no trouble with the half-dozen or so machines I've
installed on so far.
--

Hello Bill,

Did I install IE7?? Surely, you jest. :>

Why would I ever be foolhardy enough to install what appears to be such a
problematic piece of software on the chance that it _MIGHT_ work out okay?

I don't have a test machine. The PC I'm using is my one and only, and I'm
not in any mood to get cut off from the world, while I try to figure out
what to do next.

I agree: Most newsgroup posts, regardless of the product, tend to be
written by those who are having -- or have had -- problems.

Still, I don't feel like being one of the lab rats for whom the newest
clinical trial drug doesn't work, and, indeed, worsens the symptoms -- or
kills the rat outright.

I suppose I do wonder, though -- if so many of these "known issues" (as
Microsoft used to tell us in PSS the proper way to refer to bugs) with IE7
were known during testing -- why Microsoft just released it the way they
did, and left so many poor unsuspecting users to deal with the mess?

Alan

Did you install IE7? What was your experience with that? Newsgroups are
there for folks who are having a problem. Even a very small fraction of
the IE7 adopters would amount to a very large number of forum posts.

--

Hi Bitman and Bill,

I can understand the logic of not buying a "stale" product.

Bitman, you state: "....this product [Vista] has already been in wide
distribution on many current and older platforms for several months,
unlike any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would normally be
found post release have already been fixed and the entire process itself
was different in terms of quality, especially in terms of security."

IE7 was in various phases of Beta testing for a long time, too. But when
I go into the microsoft.public.internetexplorer.general newsgroup, I
shudder when I read what has happened to so many, many people with what
should have been an easy upgrade from IE6.

I have never thought of using anything but Microsoft products, when
available. (In fact, in the mid-90s, I was in PSS at a Microsoft
call-center.)

But on Saturday night, I installed Firefox 2.0 in less than 5 minutes,
and it works perfectly.

As I get older I try to make things in my life easier. Why should I
spend hours/days trying to get an Internet browser to install/work/not
mess up my computer?

Alan

Though Bill's link answers the question you've asked, this is really
the more
important link from a value perspective.
http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3221

What this means is that if you purchase a new PC in the period
following
Vista's release (planned for January 2007) with Windows XP, it will
have less
then two years lifetime remaining. Once it is finally upgraded, you
will also
have less lifetime remaining in the Vista product.

Generally, once a new OS version is released, the value of on the shelf
copies of the preceding OS plummets as more and more normal people do
the
normal thing, buy the most current product available.

It's also funny how no one here seems to get that this product has
already
been in wide distribution on many current and older platforms for
several
months, unlike any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would
normally
be found post release have already been fixed and the entire process
itself
was different in terms of quality, especially in terms of security.

Just like Windows 2000 can't be secured effectively to anywhere near
the
level of Win XP SP2, nor can XP be raised to anywhere near the level of
Vista, no matter how many updates it receives.

I don't advocate running out immediately to upgrade a 3+ year old PC to
Vista, but I also wouldn't waste money buying an old OS version when I
purchase a new PC, especially since it won't allow me to get the most
out of
my hardware investment.

Bitman

:

Hi Engel,

Actually, my point was whether people could "opt out" of getting a
machine
with Vista and request one with XP until Vista's Service Pack 19 or
so. :>

From what you posted, it sounds as if users can get XP from Dell until
March
15, 2007, and then they can decide if they REALLY want to update the
O/S to
Vista.

I wonder if I should buy a whole lot of XP CD's now and offer them to
the
highest bidder on EBay, once users no longer have a choice.

Alan

Hello Alan,

FWIW
Receive an Express Upgrade to Windows Vista when you buy a
qualifying PC
running Windows XP Media Center Edition, Windows XP Tablet PC
Edition, or
Windows XP Professional

If you're in the market for a new computer this holiday season, be
sure to
ask your retailer about the Express Upgrade to Windows Vista, being
offered
by participating PC manufacturers. When you buy a qualifying Windows
Vista
Capable PC between October 26, 2006 and March 15, 2007, you may be
eligible
for an Express Upgrade to Windows Vista.

Don't wait to enjoy the benefits of owning a new PC. Buying a
Premium
Ready
Windows Vista Capable PC means you can buy a great Windows XP
computer
today, with the confidence that it will easily upgrade to the
Windows
Vista
edition of your choice. Express Upgrade to Windows Vista offers from
participating PC manufacturers will ensure you can easily enjoy
Windows XP
today and Windows Vista when it's available.

Express Upgrade to Windows Vista offers are available from
participating
computer manufacturers, including those from the list below.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/getready/expressupgrade.mspx

Enjoy
--
:

I'm wondering if someone purchases a new machine from Dell once
Vista
officially releases, will they have the choice of still going with
XP or
will they be _forced_ to buy a machine with Vista?

Alan

I am telling everyone I know who is thinking of getting a New
Computer
to
get
it before the New Year.

Get the most powerful computer you can with Windows XP.
Wait out the the Gold/Gamma release of Vista for at least 6
months to a
Year
before upgrading so the bugs can get worked out.

I myself will be waiting till the Delta release (SP1).

?
Tim
Geek w/o Portfolio
"Only the Paranoid Survive"


:

just wondering

 

[Bill Sanderson MVP]

You can always reach us via NNTP!

--

Hi Bitman,

I appreciate your detailed explanation and reasoning for why IE7 is
important. I have to say -- after reading your thoughtful response -- that
I'm now at least _thinking_ about trying IE7.

My PC is well patched, and I have a variety of anti-malware apps installed
on it, which I run faithfully.

Hmmmm....okay.....I think I'll take the plunge. And if I can't get to this
newsgroup after the IE7 install, I'll "borrow" my son's computer to
contact this newsgroup and let you know that I'm in deep poop. :>

Alan

Hi Alan,

I want to make one thing very clear, I'm not simply being 'pro Microsoft'
or
pushing particular products as such, I'm simply indicating the importance
of
these moves based on observations of Malware Removal forums and other
technical details.

The issue with Internet Explorer is specifically that it is so tightly
woven
into the operating system itself, which makes it both a target of
exploits
and very difficult to patch/fix once it's been compromised. This fact has
led
to many malware that have taken control of affected systems. sometimes
without the knowledge of the PC owner/user. This is why it's so important
that IE 7 be installed, regardless of the temporary pain to some users
and
thus Microsoft itself, which they fully understand.

Since Firefox is really nothing but a simple GUI application it avoids
these
issues entirely, but also does absolutely nothing to mitigate them
either. It
simply avoids the risk of ActiveX application operation by denying its
existence altogether, which can just as easily be done within IE by
setting
all ActiveX controls to 'Disabled' resulting in the same problematic
issues
with some sites which require it.

The point is that with IE 6 still on your PC, you are at risk from many
of
its vulnerabilities no matter what else you attempt to do to mitigate
them,
since other entry points like email, IM or social engineering can be used
to
exploit them. What the IE 7 update really does is 'patch' the operating
system itself while improving the user's control over the entry of
add-ons
and changes like Home Page settings.

The sad fact is, that those who don't perform this necessary upgrade of a
portion of the OS will become the primary targets of those attempting to
gain
access for whatever reason, simply because their defenses are weaker.
This is
exactly the same thing that happened following the initial deployment of
Win
XP Service Pack 2, since the exploits of the older version are already
well
known.

This is why I indicate move or loose with Vista also, since over time the
remaining holes in Windows XP will become better understood, resulting in
them becoming a favored target of exploits. The stronger security profile
of
Vista means that vulnerabilities should be more difficult to exploit even
if
they exist, so an exploit discovered in both XP and Vista will not always
have the same impact on both operating systems, just as was true with Win
XP
SP2 before it.

The problem for Microsoft is that consumers really don't undertand any of
this and often see it exactly like you do, that Internet Explorer and
Firefox
are equivalent, which combined with normal procrastination will result in
delays in performing the required upgrade to IE 7.

This weekend I performed IE 7 and Defender upgrades on every system I
help
support and informed several others who also performed the upgrade
without
incident. Remember that the problems that are brought to any forum or
newsgroup will often affect only a small number of users or even just
that
single individual, but they sound equivalent to a worldwide issue,
especially
to the user(s) involved. If your own PC has no known issues, it's not
really
that likely that problems will occur.

Bitman

Hi Bitman and Bill,

I can understand the logic of not buying a "stale" product.

Bitman, you state: "....this product [Vista] has already been in wide
distribution on many current and older platforms for several months,
unlike
any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would normally be found
post
release have already been fixed and the entire process itself was
different
in terms of quality, especially in terms of security."

IE7 was in various phases of Beta testing for a long time, too. But when
I
go into the microsoft.public.internetexplorer.general newsgroup, I
shudder
when I read what has happened to so many, many people with what should
have
been an easy upgrade from IE6.

I have never thought of using anything but Microsoft products, when
available. (In fact, in the mid-90s, I was in PSS at a Microsoft
call-center.)

But on Saturday night, I installed Firefox 2.0 in less than 5 minutes,
and
it works perfectly.

As I get older I try to make things in my life easier. Why should I
spend
hours/days trying to get an Internet browser to install/work/not mess up
my
computer?

Alan

Though Bill's link answers the question you've asked, this is really
the
more
important link from a value perspective.
http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3221

What this means is that if you purchase a new PC in the period
following
Vista's release (planned for January 2007) with Windows XP, it will
have
less
then two years lifetime remaining. Once it is finally upgraded, you
will
also
have less lifetime remaining in the Vista product.

Generally, once a new OS version is released, the value of on the
shelf
copies of the preceding OS plummets as more and more normal people do
the
normal thing, buy the most current product available.

It's also funny how no one here seems to get that this product has
already
been in wide distribution on many current and older platforms for
several
months, unlike any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would
normally
be found post release have already been fixed and the entire process
itself
was different in terms of quality, especially in terms of security.

Just like Windows 2000 can't be secured effectively to anywhere near
the
level of Win XP SP2, nor can XP be raised to anywhere near the level
of
Vista, no matter how many updates it receives.

I don't advocate running out immediately to upgrade a 3+ year old PC
to
Vista, but I also wouldn't waste money buying an old OS version when I
purchase a new PC, especially since it won't allow me to get the most
out
of
my hardware investment.

Bitman

:

Hi Engel,

Actually, my point was whether people could "opt out" of getting a
machine
with Vista and request one with XP until Vista's Service Pack 19 or
so.
:>

From what you posted, it sounds as if users can get XP from Dell
until
March
15, 2007, and then they can decide if they REALLY want to update the
O/S
to
Vista.

I wonder if I should buy a whole lot of XP CD's now and offer them to
the
highest bidder on EBay, once users no longer have a choice.

Alan

Hello Alan,

FWIW
Receive an Express Upgrade to Windows Vista when you buy a
qualifying
PC
running Windows XP Media Center Edition, Windows XP Tablet PC
Edition,
or
Windows XP Professional

If you're in the market for a new computer this holiday season, be
sure
to
ask your retailer about the Express Upgrade to Windows Vista, being
offered
by participating PC manufacturers. When you buy a qualifying
Windows
Vista
Capable PC between October 26, 2006 and March 15, 2007, you may be
eligible
for an Express Upgrade to Windows Vista.

Don't wait to enjoy the benefits of owning a new PC. Buying a
Premium
Ready
Windows Vista Capable PC means you can buy a great Windows XP
computer
today, with the confidence that it will easily upgrade to the
Windows
Vista
edition of your choice. Express Upgrade to Windows Vista offers
from
participating PC manufacturers will ensure you can easily enjoy
Windows
XP
today and Windows Vista when it's available.

Express Upgrade to Windows Vista offers are available from
participating
computer manufacturers, including those from the list below.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/getready/expressupgrade.mspx

Enjoy
--
:

I'm wondering if someone purchases a new machine from Dell once
Vista
officially releases, will they have the choice of still going with
XP
or
will they be _forced_ to buy a machine with Vista?

Alan

I am telling everyone I know who is thinking of getting a New
Computer
to
get
it before the New Year.

Get the most powerful computer you can with Windows XP.
Wait out the the Gold/Gamma release of Vista for at least 6
months
to a
Year
before upgrading so the bugs can get worked out.

I myself will be waiting till the Delta release (SP1).

?
Tim
Geek w/o Portfolio
"Only the Paranoid Survive"


:

just wondering

 

[Alan]

Yes, that's true, I _can_ always reach you via NNTP -- so long as my Outlook
Express still works and I have Internet connectivity. :>

Alan

You can always reach us via NNTP!

--

Hi Bitman,

I appreciate your detailed explanation and reasoning for why IE7 is
important. I have to say -- after reading your thoughtful response --
that I'm now at least _thinking_ about trying IE7.

My PC is well patched, and I have a variety of anti-malware apps
installed on it, which I run faithfully.

Hmmmm....okay.....I think I'll take the plunge. And if I can't get to
this newsgroup after the IE7 install, I'll "borrow" my son's computer to
contact this newsgroup and let you know that I'm in deep poop. :>

Alan

Hi Alan,

I want to make one thing very clear, I'm not simply being 'pro
Microsoft' or
pushing particular products as such, I'm simply indicating the
importance of
these moves based on observations of Malware Removal forums and other
technical details.

The issue with Internet Explorer is specifically that it is so tightly
woven
into the operating system itself, which makes it both a target of
exploits
and very difficult to patch/fix once it's been compromised. This fact
has led
to many malware that have taken control of affected systems. sometimes
without the knowledge of the PC owner/user. This is why it's so
important
that IE 7 be installed, regardless of the temporary pain to some users
and
thus Microsoft itself, which they fully understand.

Since Firefox is really nothing but a simple GUI application it avoids
these
issues entirely, but also does absolutely nothing to mitigate them
either. It
simply avoids the risk of ActiveX application operation by denying its
existence altogether, which can just as easily be done within IE by
setting
all ActiveX controls to 'Disabled' resulting in the same problematic
issues
with some sites which require it.

The point is that with IE 6 still on your PC, you are at risk from many
of
its vulnerabilities no matter what else you attempt to do to mitigate
them,
since other entry points like email, IM or social engineering can be
used to
exploit them. What the IE 7 update really does is 'patch' the operating
system itself while improving the user's control over the entry of
add-ons
and changes like Home Page settings.

The sad fact is, that those who don't perform this necessary upgrade of
a
portion of the OS will become the primary targets of those attempting to
gain
access for whatever reason, simply because their defenses are weaker.
This is
exactly the same thing that happened following the initial deployment of
Win
XP Service Pack 2, since the exploits of the older version are already
well
known.

This is why I indicate move or loose with Vista also, since over time
the
remaining holes in Windows XP will become better understood, resulting
in
them becoming a favored target of exploits. The stronger security
profile of
Vista means that vulnerabilities should be more difficult to exploit
even if
they exist, so an exploit discovered in both XP and Vista will not
always
have the same impact on both operating systems, just as was true with
Win XP
SP2 before it.

The problem for Microsoft is that consumers really don't undertand any
of
this and often see it exactly like you do, that Internet Explorer and
Firefox
are equivalent, which combined with normal procrastination will result
in
delays in performing the required upgrade to IE 7.

This weekend I performed IE 7 and Defender upgrades on every system I
help
support and informed several others who also performed the upgrade
without
incident. Remember that the problems that are brought to any forum or
newsgroup will often affect only a small number of users or even just
that
single individual, but they sound equivalent to a worldwide issue,
especially
to the user(s) involved. If your own PC has no known issues, it's not
really
that likely that problems will occur.

Bitman

:

Hi Bitman and Bill,

I can understand the logic of not buying a "stale" product.

Bitman, you state: "....this product [Vista] has already been in wide
distribution on many current and older platforms for several months,
unlike
any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would normally be found
post
release have already been fixed and the entire process itself was
different
in terms of quality, especially in terms of security."

IE7 was in various phases of Beta testing for a long time, too. But
when I
go into the microsoft.public.internetexplorer.general newsgroup, I
shudder
when I read what has happened to so many, many people with what should
have
been an easy upgrade from IE6.

I have never thought of using anything but Microsoft products, when
available. (In fact, in the mid-90s, I was in PSS at a Microsoft
call-center.)

But on Saturday night, I installed Firefox 2.0 in less than 5 minutes,
and
it works perfectly.

As I get older I try to make things in my life easier. Why should I
spend
hours/days trying to get an Internet browser to install/work/not mess
up my
computer?

Alan

Though Bill's link answers the question you've asked, this is really
the
more
important link from a value perspective.
http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3221

What this means is that if you purchase a new PC in the period
following
Vista's release (planned for January 2007) with Windows XP, it will
have
less
then two years lifetime remaining. Once it is finally upgraded, you
will
also
have less lifetime remaining in the Vista product.

Generally, once a new OS version is released, the value of on the
shelf
copies of the preceding OS plummets as more and more normal people do
the
normal thing, buy the most current product available.

It's also funny how no one here seems to get that this product has
already
been in wide distribution on many current and older platforms for
several
months, unlike any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would
normally
be found post release have already been fixed and the entire process
itself
was different in terms of quality, especially in terms of security.

Just like Windows 2000 can't be secured effectively to anywhere near
the
level of Win XP SP2, nor can XP be raised to anywhere near the level
of
Vista, no matter how many updates it receives.

I don't advocate running out immediately to upgrade a 3+ year old PC
to
Vista, but I also wouldn't waste money buying an old OS version when
I
purchase a new PC, especially since it won't allow me to get the most
out
of
my hardware investment.

Bitman

:

Hi Engel,

Actually, my point was whether people could "opt out" of getting a
machine
with Vista and request one with XP until Vista's Service Pack 19 or
so.
:>

From what you posted, it sounds as if users can get XP from Dell
until
March
15, 2007, and then they can decide if they REALLY want to update the
O/S
to
Vista.

I wonder if I should buy a whole lot of XP CD's now and offer them
to the
highest bidder on EBay, once users no longer have a choice.

Alan

Hello Alan,

FWIW
Receive an Express Upgrade to Windows Vista when you buy a
qualifying
PC
running Windows XP Media Center Edition, Windows XP Tablet PC
Edition,
or
Windows XP Professional

If you're in the market for a new computer this holiday season, be
sure
to
ask your retailer about the Express Upgrade to Windows Vista,
being
offered
by participating PC manufacturers. When you buy a qualifying
Windows
Vista
Capable PC between October 26, 2006 and March 15, 2007, you may be
eligible
for an Express Upgrade to Windows Vista.

Don't wait to enjoy the benefits of owning a new PC. Buying a
Premium
Ready
Windows Vista Capable PC means you can buy a great Windows XP
computer
today, with the confidence that it will easily upgrade to the
Windows
Vista
edition of your choice. Express Upgrade to Windows Vista offers
from
participating PC manufacturers will ensure you can easily enjoy
Windows
XP
today and Windows Vista when it's available.

Express Upgrade to Windows Vista offers are available from
participating
computer manufacturers, including those from the list below.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/getready/expressupgrade.mspx

Enjoy
--
:

I'm wondering if someone purchases a new machine from Dell once
Vista
officially releases, will they have the choice of still going
with XP
or
will they be _forced_ to buy a machine with Vista?

Alan

I am telling everyone I know who is thinking of getting a New
Computer
to
get
it before the New Year.

Get the most powerful computer you can with Windows XP.
Wait out the the Gold/Gamma release of Vista for at least 6
months
to a
Year
before upgrading so the bugs can get worked out.

I myself will be waiting till the Delta release (SP1).

?
Tim
Geek w/o Portfolio
"Only the Paranoid Survive"


:

just wondering

 

[robin]

so alan did you take the plunge and install it?
robin

Yes, that's true, I _can_ always reach you via NNTP -- so long as my
Outlook Express still works and I have Internet connectivity. :>

Alan

You can always reach us via NNTP!

--

Hi Bitman,

I appreciate your detailed explanation and reasoning for why IE7 is
important. I have to say -- after reading your thoughtful response --
that I'm now at least _thinking_ about trying IE7.

My PC is well patched, and I have a variety of anti-malware apps
installed on it, which I run faithfully.

Hmmmm....okay.....I think I'll take the plunge. And if I can't get to
this newsgroup after the IE7 install, I'll "borrow" my son's computer to
contact this newsgroup and let you know that I'm in deep poop. :>

Alan

Hi Alan,

I want to make one thing very clear, I'm not simply being 'pro
Microsoft' or
pushing particular products as such, I'm simply indicating the
importance of
these moves based on observations of Malware Removal forums and other
technical details.

The issue with Internet Explorer is specifically that it is so tightly
woven
into the operating system itself, which makes it both a target of
exploits
and very difficult to patch/fix once it's been compromised. This fact
has led
to many malware that have taken control of affected systems. sometimes
without the knowledge of the PC owner/user. This is why it's so
important
that IE 7 be installed, regardless of the temporary pain to some users
and
thus Microsoft itself, which they fully understand.

Since Firefox is really nothing but a simple GUI application it avoids
these
issues entirely, but also does absolutely nothing to mitigate them
either. It
simply avoids the risk of ActiveX application operation by denying its
existence altogether, which can just as easily be done within IE by
setting
all ActiveX controls to 'Disabled' resulting in the same problematic
issues
with some sites which require it.

The point is that with IE 6 still on your PC, you are at risk from many
of
its vulnerabilities no matter what else you attempt to do to mitigate
them,
since other entry points like email, IM or social engineering can be
used to
exploit them. What the IE 7 update really does is 'patch' the operating
system itself while improving the user's control over the entry of
add-ons
and changes like Home Page settings.

The sad fact is, that those who don't perform this necessary upgrade of
a
portion of the OS will become the primary targets of those attempting
to gain
access for whatever reason, simply because their defenses are weaker.
This is
exactly the same thing that happened following the initial deployment
of Win
XP Service Pack 2, since the exploits of the older version are already
well
known.

This is why I indicate move or loose with Vista also, since over time
the
remaining holes in Windows XP will become better understood, resulting
in
them becoming a favored target of exploits. The stronger security
profile of
Vista means that vulnerabilities should be more difficult to exploit
even if
they exist, so an exploit discovered in both XP and Vista will not
always
have the same impact on both operating systems, just as was true with
Win XP
SP2 before it.

The problem for Microsoft is that consumers really don't undertand any
of
this and often see it exactly like you do, that Internet Explorer and
Firefox
are equivalent, which combined with normal procrastination will result
in
delays in performing the required upgrade to IE 7.

This weekend I performed IE 7 and Defender upgrades on every system I
help
support and informed several others who also performed the upgrade
without
incident. Remember that the problems that are brought to any forum or
newsgroup will often affect only a small number of users or even just
that
single individual, but they sound equivalent to a worldwide issue,
especially
to the user(s) involved. If your own PC has no known issues, it's not
really
that likely that problems will occur.

Bitman

:

Hi Bitman and Bill,

I can understand the logic of not buying a "stale" product.

Bitman, you state: "....this product [Vista] has already been in wide
distribution on many current and older platforms for several months,
unlike
any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would normally be found
post
release have already been fixed and the entire process itself was
different
in terms of quality, especially in terms of security."

IE7 was in various phases of Beta testing for a long time, too. But
when I
go into the microsoft.public.internetexplorer.general newsgroup, I
shudder
when I read what has happened to so many, many people with what should
have
been an easy upgrade from IE6.

I have never thought of using anything but Microsoft products, when
available. (In fact, in the mid-90s, I was in PSS at a Microsoft
call-center.)

But on Saturday night, I installed Firefox 2.0 in less than 5
minutes, and
it works perfectly.

As I get older I try to make things in my life easier. Why should I
spend
hours/days trying to get an Internet browser to install/work/not mess
up my
computer?

Alan

Though Bill's link answers the question you've asked, this is really
the
more
important link from a value perspective.
http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3221

What this means is that if you purchase a new PC in the period
following
Vista's release (planned for January 2007) with Windows XP, it will
have
less
then two years lifetime remaining. Once it is finally upgraded, you
will
also
have less lifetime remaining in the Vista product.

Generally, once a new OS version is released, the value of on the
shelf
copies of the preceding OS plummets as more and more normal people
do the
normal thing, buy the most current product available.

It's also funny how no one here seems to get that this product has
already
been in wide distribution on many current and older platforms for
several
months, unlike any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would
normally
be found post release have already been fixed and the entire process
itself
was different in terms of quality, especially in terms of security.

Just like Windows 2000 can't be secured effectively to anywhere near
the
level of Win XP SP2, nor can XP be raised to anywhere near the level
of
Vista, no matter how many updates it receives.

I don't advocate running out immediately to upgrade a 3+ year old PC
to
Vista, but I also wouldn't waste money buying an old OS version when
I
purchase a new PC, especially since it won't allow me to get the
most out
of
my hardware investment.

Bitman

:

Hi Engel,

Actually, my point was whether people could "opt out" of getting a
machine
with Vista and request one with XP until Vista's Service Pack 19 or
so.
:>

From what you posted, it sounds as if users can get XP from Dell
until
March
15, 2007, and then they can decide if they REALLY want to update
the O/S
to
Vista.

I wonder if I should buy a whole lot of XP CD's now and offer them
to the
highest bidder on EBay, once users no longer have a choice.

Alan

Hello Alan,

FWIW
Receive an Express Upgrade to Windows Vista when you buy a
qualifying
PC
running Windows XP Media Center Edition, Windows XP Tablet PC
Edition,
or
Windows XP Professional

If you're in the market for a new computer this holiday season,
be sure
to
ask your retailer about the Express Upgrade to Windows Vista,
being
offered
by participating PC manufacturers. When you buy a qualifying
Windows
Vista
Capable PC between October 26, 2006 and March 15, 2007, you may
be
eligible
for an Express Upgrade to Windows Vista.

Don't wait to enjoy the benefits of owning a new PC. Buying a
Premium
Ready
Windows Vista Capable PC means you can buy a great Windows XP
computer
today, with the confidence that it will easily upgrade to the
Windows
Vista
edition of your choice. Express Upgrade to Windows Vista offers
from
participating PC manufacturers will ensure you can easily enjoy
Windows
XP
today and Windows Vista when it's available.

Express Upgrade to Windows Vista offers are available from
participating
computer manufacturers, including those from the list below.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/getready/expressupgrade.mspx

Enjoy
--
:

I'm wondering if someone purchases a new machine from Dell once
Vista
officially releases, will they have the choice of still going
with XP
or
will they be _forced_ to buy a machine with Vista?

Alan

message
I am telling everyone I know who is thinking of getting a New
Computer
to
get
it before the New Year.

Get the most powerful computer you can with Windows XP.
Wait out the the Gold/Gamma release of Vista for at least 6
months
to a
Year
before upgrading so the bugs can get worked out.

I myself will be waiting till the Delta release (SP1).

?
Tim
Geek w/o Portfolio
"Only the Paranoid Survive"


:

just wondering

 

[Alan]

Hi Robin,

You had to ask, huh?? :>

When I wrote that I was going to install yesterday, I was full of confidence
and swagger.

Then, I made one more trip to the IE7 newsgroup....and decided to wait.

I never claimed to be brave. LOL

Alan

so alan did you take the plunge and install it?
robin

Yes, that's true, I _can_ always reach you via NNTP -- so long as my
Outlook Express still works and I have Internet connectivity. :>

Alan

You can always reach us via NNTP!

--

Hi Bitman,

I appreciate your detailed explanation and reasoning for why IE7 is
important. I have to say -- after reading your thoughtful response --
that I'm now at least _thinking_ about trying IE7.

My PC is well patched, and I have a variety of anti-malware apps
installed on it, which I run faithfully.

Hmmmm....okay.....I think I'll take the plunge. And if I can't get to
this newsgroup after the IE7 install, I'll "borrow" my son's computer
to contact this newsgroup and let you know that I'm in deep poop. :>

Alan

Hi Alan,

I want to make one thing very clear, I'm not simply being 'pro
Microsoft' or
pushing particular products as such, I'm simply indicating the
importance of
these moves based on observations of Malware Removal forums and other
technical details.

The issue with Internet Explorer is specifically that it is so tightly
woven
into the operating system itself, which makes it both a target of
exploits
and very difficult to patch/fix once it's been compromised. This fact
has led
to many malware that have taken control of affected systems. sometimes
without the knowledge of the PC owner/user. This is why it's so
important
that IE 7 be installed, regardless of the temporary pain to some users
and
thus Microsoft itself, which they fully understand.

Since Firefox is really nothing but a simple GUI application it avoids
these
issues entirely, but also does absolutely nothing to mitigate them
either. It
simply avoids the risk of ActiveX application operation by denying its
existence altogether, which can just as easily be done within IE by
setting
all ActiveX controls to 'Disabled' resulting in the same problematic
issues
with some sites which require it.

The point is that with IE 6 still on your PC, you are at risk from
many of
its vulnerabilities no matter what else you attempt to do to mitigate
them,
since other entry points like email, IM or social engineering can be
used to
exploit them. What the IE 7 update really does is 'patch' the
operating
system itself while improving the user's control over the entry of
add-ons
and changes like Home Page settings.

The sad fact is, that those who don't perform this necessary upgrade
of a
portion of the OS will become the primary targets of those attempting
to gain
access for whatever reason, simply because their defenses are weaker.
This is
exactly the same thing that happened following the initial deployment
of Win
XP Service Pack 2, since the exploits of the older version are already
well
known.

This is why I indicate move or loose with Vista also, since over time
the
remaining holes in Windows XP will become better understood, resulting
in
them becoming a favored target of exploits. The stronger security
profile of
Vista means that vulnerabilities should be more difficult to exploit
even if
they exist, so an exploit discovered in both XP and Vista will not
always
have the same impact on both operating systems, just as was true with
Win XP
SP2 before it.

The problem for Microsoft is that consumers really don't undertand any
of
this and often see it exactly like you do, that Internet Explorer and
Firefox
are equivalent, which combined with normal procrastination will result
in
delays in performing the required upgrade to IE 7.

This weekend I performed IE 7 and Defender upgrades on every system I
help
support and informed several others who also performed the upgrade
without
incident. Remember that the problems that are brought to any forum or
newsgroup will often affect only a small number of users or even just
that
single individual, but they sound equivalent to a worldwide issue,
especially
to the user(s) involved. If your own PC has no known issues, it's not
really
that likely that problems will occur.

Bitman

:

Hi Bitman and Bill,

I can understand the logic of not buying a "stale" product.

Bitman, you state: "....this product [Vista] has already been in wide
distribution on many current and older platforms for several months,
unlike
any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would normally be
found post
release have already been fixed and the entire process itself was
different
in terms of quality, especially in terms of security."

IE7 was in various phases of Beta testing for a long time, too. But
when I
go into the microsoft.public.internetexplorer.general newsgroup, I
shudder
when I read what has happened to so many, many people with what
should have
been an easy upgrade from IE6.

I have never thought of using anything but Microsoft products, when
available. (In fact, in the mid-90s, I was in PSS at a Microsoft
call-center.)

But on Saturday night, I installed Firefox 2.0 in less than 5
minutes, and
it works perfectly.

As I get older I try to make things in my life easier. Why should I
spend
hours/days trying to get an Internet browser to install/work/not mess
up my
computer?

Alan

Though Bill's link answers the question you've asked, this is
really the
more
important link from a value perspective.
http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3221

What this means is that if you purchase a new PC in the period
following
Vista's release (planned for January 2007) with Windows XP, it will
have
less
then two years lifetime remaining. Once it is finally upgraded, you
will
also
have less lifetime remaining in the Vista product.

Generally, once a new OS version is released, the value of on the
shelf
copies of the preceding OS plummets as more and more normal people
do the
normal thing, buy the most current product available.

It's also funny how no one here seems to get that this product has
already
been in wide distribution on many current and older platforms for
several
months, unlike any of its predecessors. Many of the bugs that would
normally
be found post release have already been fixed and the entire
process
itself
was different in terms of quality, especially in terms of security.

Just like Windows 2000 can't be secured effectively to anywhere
near the
level of Win XP SP2, nor can XP be raised to anywhere near the
level of
Vista, no matter how many updates it receives.

I don't advocate running out immediately to upgrade a 3+ year old
PC to
Vista, but I also wouldn't waste money buying an old OS version
when I
purchase a new PC, especially since it won't allow me to get the
most out
of
my hardware investment.

Bitman

:

Hi Engel,

Actually, my point was whether people could "opt out" of getting a
machine
with Vista and request one with XP until Vista's Service Pack 19
or so.
:>

From what you posted, it sounds as if users can get XP from Dell
until
March
15, 2007, and then they can decide if they REALLY want to update
the O/S
to
Vista.

I wonder if I should buy a whole lot of XP CD's now and offer them
to the
highest bidder on EBay, once users no longer have a choice.

Alan

Hello Alan,

FWIW
Receive an Express Upgrade to Windows Vista when you buy a
qualifying
PC
running Windows XP Media Center Edition, Windows XP Tablet PC
Edition,
or
Windows XP Professional

If you're in the market for a new computer this holiday season,
be sure
to
ask your retailer about the Express Upgrade to Windows Vista,
being
offered
by participating PC manufacturers. When you buy a qualifying
Windows
Vista
Capable PC between October 26, 2006 and March 15, 2007, you may
be
eligible
for an Express Upgrade to Windows Vista.

Don't wait to enjoy the benefits of owning a new PC. Buying a
Premium
Ready
Windows Vista Capable PC means you can buy a great Windows XP
computer
today, with the confidence that it will easily upgrade to the
Windows
Vista
edition of your choice. Express Upgrade to Windows Vista offers
from
participating PC manufacturers will ensure you can easily enjoy
Windows
XP
today and Windows Vista when it's available.

Express Upgrade to Windows Vista offers are available from
participating
computer manufacturers, including those from the list below.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/getready/expressupgrade.mspx

Enjoy
--
:

I'm wondering if someone purchases a new machine from Dell once
Vista
officially releases, will they have the choice of still going
with XP
or
will they be _forced_ to buy a machine with Vista?

Alan

message
I am telling everyone I know who is thinking of getting a New
Computer
to
get
it before the New Year.

Get the most powerful computer you can with Windows XP.
Wait out the the Gold/Gamma release of Vista for at least 6
months
to a
Year
before upgrading so the bugs can get worked out.

I myself will be waiting till the Delta release (SP1).

?
Tim
Geek w/o Portfolio
"Only the Paranoid Survive"


:

just wondering