Is it ok to plug a power strip into another powerstrip?

[Blinky the Shark]

Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid> wrote:

John Doe wrote:

I meant if you are using a surge suppressor in the same line, then
the UPS goes after the surge suppressor.

"Plug in the AC power cord to a wall outlet."
[see link at bottom]

That's correct, otherwise it wouldn't work.

From the same document:

"Do not plug surge protectors or power strips into the
battery-backup outlets."

Different topic.

Is that the way I was supposed to respond to you, troll?

Troll? Yeah, right.

The original topic was about plugging a power strip into another power
strip.

Unless maybe you think you are the origin of everything?

No more than you are. I came in at plugging a UPS into a power strip; I
discussed that.

That's what I challenged. The manual does not use the word "directly".

If you wish to read "into the wall" as "into something that is not the
wall", there's nothing anyone can do about it.

The order of a UPS versus surge suppressor was the subject of my post
that you replied to.

And I said that the order my manufacturer cited was UPS-into-wall, not
UPS-into-surge-strip. Right on topic, by golly!

And because you don't know, you will remain ignorant?

I don't know from a reliable authority the exact technical reason that
it's bad biz to plug a surge strip into the output side of a UPS unit.
I won't *do* it, but I don't mind remaining ignorant about the physics
involved. Similarly, I don't know all of the chemical reactions between
ingestion of cyanide and death; but I know that I won't ingest any.

That was a misquote.

I believe the manual's use of "into the wall" means...well, "into the
wall". No, they didn't say "directly", and I said up front that I was
running from memory; I hadn't read the manual for two or three years
until I downloaded it today for this discussion.

That doesn't mean the wall is the only place it should go.

Hell, it *could* go into the drain hole in the tub. Because the
manual doesn't say not to, y'know. But I choose to think that the
writers (at least since it's not written in Engrish) know, and presume
we know, what "into the wall" means.

Even if that were true, nobody is recommending a cheap power strip in
front of a UPS.

I thought I saw, way upthread someone (please carefully note that
"someone" does not mean "John Doe" - although it also does not by nature
necessarily exclude him) suggesting it was okay to place a surge strip
between the wall and the UPS. But whether or not that is the case, I
still believe that "into the wall" means what it says.

<more useless quoted headers snipped>

 

[John Doe]

Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid> wrote:

....

<snipped lots of denial and trolling>

I can see why Blinky the Shark enjoys 24hoursupport.helpdesk, a group
full of off-topic garbage populated by trolls.

But I choose to think that the writers (at least since it's not
written in Engrish) know, and presume we know, what "into the wall"
means.

Their instruction about setting up the UPS is irrelevant to your
incorrect claim that a UPS should not be plugged into a surge
suppressor.

--
Blinky RLU 297263
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html


Path: newssvr13.news.prodigy.net!newssvr11.news.prodigy.net!newsdbm03.news.prodigy.net!newsdst01.news.prodigy.net!prodigy.com!newscon04.news.prodigy.net!prodigy.net!goblin1!goblin.stu.neva.ru!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid>
Newsgroups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Subject: Re: Is it ok to plug a power strip into another powerstrip?
Date: 10 Jul 2007 06:31:17 GMT
Organization: http://blinkynet.net
Lines: 113
Message-ID: <slrnf969se.tof.no.spam thurston.blinkynet.net>
References: <1183833048.102869.213920 q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> <X69ki.37377$YL5.2905 newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <slrnf92dic.r04.no.spam thurston.blinkynet.net> <zZpki.1417$m%.530 newssvr17.news.prodigy.net> <slrnf95so8.pgv.no.spam thurston.blinkynet.net> <LtDki.38215$Um6.35420 newssvr12.news.prodigy.net> <slrnf965kq.t0g.no.spam thurston.blinkynet.net> <_dFki.2024$eY.201 newssvr13.news.prodigy.net>
X-Trace: individual.net xpy4oPYLVsZSlISwsx56+gwyqjmnPCUHn7DmqlIaWzq42iqWrD
Cancel-Lock: sha1:3iCYniLk6zHYq2PnxsUroT3SDCc=
X-Face: Jb-wQ7r&vrN}~8MC5B09S4&.ieh!Qi/XN.xrd#CU%bPa`Hm^(,3o$n(s75[P+$F+Q^4~Owj`WzkBtZU/#gL2BvEBm/e=/1,R0}d q )E
X-OS: Mandriva 2006 Linux; kernel 2.6.12
X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.1 (Linux)
Xref: prodigy.net alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt:493004

 

[Blinky the Shark]

Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid> wrote:

...


Would that be part of your Usenet Improvement Project? No sentence
left unparsed?

I just wondered what he was trying to say in that one statement that
someone quoted. Then I think I went manual (disengaging my score file)
and saw his long (boilerplate?) post. That still didn't quite clear up
that point.

That said:

A few Google Groupers were harmed in the making of the Usenet
Improvement Project.

 

[Blinky the Shark]

Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid> wrote:

...

<snipped lots of denial and trolling>

I can see why Blinky the Shark enjoys 24hoursupport.helpdesk, a group
full of off-topic garbage populated by trolls.


Their instruction about setting up the UPS is irrelevant to your
incorrect claim that a UPS should not be plugged into a surge
suppressor.

Well, except for their instruction to plug it into the wall.

 

[John Doe]

Well, except for their instruction to plug it into the wall.

Nobody cares what you do with your UPS.

 

[Blinky the Shark]

Nobody cares what you do with your UPS.

This was never about my UPS. I didn't ask what to do with my UPS. I
already did what my manual said to do with my UPS, which was a
suggestion for whoever else was wondering what to do with his UPS.
Surge strips? We don't need any surge strips. We don't have to show
you any esteenking surge strips.

 

[bud--]

When you plug a UPS into a power strip protector, then that UPS
connects directly to an AC wall receptacle. There is no voltage
regulation inside that power strip. Between the Belkin and that wall
receptacle is maybe a fuse (absolutely essential) and a switch.
Protection between UPS and wall receptacle is mythical.

So where is the protector circuit? That circuit could be removed
from a power strip and plugged separately into the wall receptacle.
Nothing electrically changed. None of that surge protector circuit is
between the Belkin and wall receptacle. Yes, that should have you
asking some damning questions such as "Why does the power strip
protector not even claim to protect from a type of surge that
typically damages electronics?"

Complete nonsense.

If you want reliable information on surges and surge protection the IEEE
has an excellent guide at:
http://omegaps.com/Lightning Guide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pd
and the NIST has a good one at:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf

The IEEE guide is aimed at those with some technical background. The
NIST guide is aimed at the unwashed masses.

Both guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.

Plug-in suppressors certainly do claim to protect from surges that
damage electronics.
The IEEE guide explains plug-in suppressors work by clamping the voltage
on all wires (signal and power) to the common ground at the suppressor.
Ratings range from junk to very high.

Note that all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the
same plug-in suppressor, or interconnecting wires need to go through the
suppressor. External connections, like phone, CATV, ... also need to go
through the suppressor. Connecting all wiring through the suppressor
prevents damaging voltages between power and signal wires. These
multiport suppressors are described in both the IEEE and NIST guides.

That same dirty electricity can be harmful to power strip
protectors.

I agree that plug-in suppressors should not be connected to the output
of a UPS.

UPSs can be connected to a plug-in suppressor. It would be better if the
suppression was then primarily done by the plug-in suppressor, not the
UPS. Plug-in suppressors are readily available with very high ratings -
probably much higher than what is easily available in a UPS. If I had a
UPS, I would rather have low surge suppression in the UPS and plug it in
to a plug-in suppressor with very high ratings.

In the original quote, if the Belkin UPS had significant surge
suppression, Belkin probably wouldn’t want an additional suppressor
between its UPS and the outlet.

 

[John Doe]

This was never about my UPS. I didn't ask what to do with my UPS.
I already did what my manual said to do with my UPS, which was a
suggestion for whoever else was wondering what to do with his UPS.

Okay then. You aren't warning against plugging a UPS into a surge
suppressor. You're just telling everyone it's OK to plug their UPS
into the wall.

--
Blinky RLU 297263
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html


Path: newsdbm02.news.prodigy.net!newsdst02.news.prodigy.net!prodigy.com!newscon02.news.prodigy.net!prodigy.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: Blinky the Shark <no.spam box.invalid>
Newsgroups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Subject: Re: Is it ok to plug a power strip into another powerstrip?
Date: 10 Jul 2007 07:48:10 GMT
Organization: http://blinkynet.net
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <slrnf96ecj.vtg.no.spam thurston.blinkynet.net>
References: <1183833048.102869.213920 q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> <X69ki.37377$YL5.2905 newssvr29.news.prodigy.net> <slrnf92dic.r04.no.spam thurston.blinkynet.net> <zZpki.1417$m%.530 newssvr17.news.prodigy.net> <slrnf95so8.pgv.no.spam thurston.blinkynet.net> <LtDki.38215$Um6.35420 newssvr12.news.prodigy.net> <slrnf965kq.t0g.no.spam thurston.blinkynet.net> <_dFki.2024$eY.201 newssvr13.news.prodigy.net> <slrnf969se.tof.no.spam thurston.blinkynet.net> <Y8Gki.9537$Rw1.4537 newssvr25.news.prodigy.net> <slrnf96c3d.tof.no.spam thurston.blinkynet.net> <0LGki.45810$5j1.21131 newssvr21.news.prodigy.net>
X-Trace: individual.net Xe8ywF9VUA91lXTUJ0Ks9Q+ifSAj/OGb5+2IlRsW64Of/8V6Fp
Cancel-Lock: sha1:qp5HRc2g4wNTqE6NTS5lyYa3Iyo=
X-Face: Jb-wQ7r&vrN}~8MC5B09S4&.ieh!Qi/XN.xrd#CU%bPa`Hm^(,3o$n(s75[P+$F+Q^4~Owj`WzkBtZU/#gL2BvEBm/e=/1,R0}d q )E
X-OS: Mandriva 2006 Linux; kernel 2.6.12
X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black
User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.1 (Linux)
Xref: prodigy.net alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt:493013
X-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 03:48:12 EDT (newsdbm02.news.prodigy.net)

 

[Blinky the Shark]

Okay then. You aren't warning against plugging a UPS into a surge
suppressor. You're just telling everyone it's OK to plug their UPS
into the wall.

From the beginning I've been saying that my UPS manufacturer recommends
plugging the unit into a wall socket and that that's the only place
*that it recommends" in its manual. Your semantic games bore me. They
are not constructive. Have a nice life.

 

[John Doe]

From the beginning I've been saying that my UPS manufacturer
recommends plugging the unit into a wall socket and that that's the
only place *that it recommends" in its manual.

It doesn't say "recommend" and that's not a recommendation, it's
instruction for setting up your UPS.

They are simply telling you to plug your UPS into the wall before
using it.

Your semantic games bore me.

That's no surprise considering you play them so much.

 

[Linux Geek]

From the beginning I've been saying that my UPS manufacturer recommends
plugging the unit into a wall socket and that that's the only place
*that it recommends" in its manual. Your semantic games bore me. They
are not constructive. Have a nice life.

Some manufacturers will not honour warranties if there is a failure and an
extension cord/power distribution bar of any sort is used in the setup.
The reason being that many extensions are constructed by the user/owner
and in many cases do not follow the standards for connector connections
thus rendering useless any surge protection that may be incorporated in
the commercial UPS etc. For example many people do not even bother with
such mundane requirements as ground/earth connections at all so that MOVs
between hot and gnd an neutral and gnd on the UPS would not be functional
at all.


--

__________________________________________________________________
Linux Geek

Saying that XP is the most stable MS OS is like saying that
asparagus is the most articulate vegetable. (Dave Barry)

 

[John Doe]

Linux Geek <lgeek bfosotp.nil> wrote:

....

Some manufacturers will not honour warranties if there is a failure
and an extension cord/power distribution bar of any sort is used in
the setup.

I guess that depends on what "any sort" means.

We don't refer to surge suppressors as "extension cords" or "power
distribution bars".

The reason being that many extensions are constructed by
the user/owner

I'm familiar with electronics. Constructing surge suppressors isn't
very popular AFAIK. They are a very simple design and much cheaper to
buy from a store.

Extension cords are frowned upon because sometimes they are not rated
for the current required by the device.

Yes, sometimes people don't use properly grounded connectors, but
that's another subject too.

and in many cases do not follow the standards for
connector connections thus rendering useless any surge protection
that may be incorporated in the commercial UPS etc. For example
many people do not even bother with such mundane requirements as
ground/earth connections at all so that MOVs between hot and gnd an
neutral and gnd on the UPS would not be functional at all.

But in fact, typically an electronics hobbyist makes stuff because
it's fun and educational, not to save money. It might not be perfectly
constructed, but most of it is by the book.

Some surge suppressors claim to insure connected equipment up to
$100,000 or more.

 

[w_tom]

Some manufacturers will not honour warranties if there is a failure and an
extension cord/power distribution bar of any sort is used in the setup.
The reason being that many extensions are constructed by the user/owner
and in many cases do not follow the standards for connector connections
thus rendering useless any surge protection that may be incorporated in
the commercial UPS etc.

Read closer some of those fine print warranties. From the wording,
a protector from any other manufacturer in the building may void the
warranty. That warranty is typically chock full of exemptions for
good reason. Warranty need not be honored, but warranty is cited as
'proof' that the protector will do something? When did words from a
lawyer constitute science proof? Nothing in that warranty says
anything about protection. But it does list numerous reasons why the
warranty need not be honored.

What does that protector circuit in a UPS do? Again, where are
manufacturer numbers that define each type of surge and that
protection - with numbers? I keep asking for these specs. Why can no
one provide them? Because those specs do not claim protection as
implied by so many here.

Protector circuit in a UPS is the same protector circuit found in
$10 and in $150 power strip protectors. That circuit will protect
from a type of surge that typically does not cause damage. Therefore
it provides surge protection. Therefore they did not lie. They just
forget to mention: it does not even claim to protect from the type of
surge that typically causes damage.

But again, if you believe the UPS has surge protection, then you
have numbers. Post them. What are those numbers for each type of
surge? Why are same numbers also found in numeric spec sheets for
plug-in protectors? Why? Same circuit.

Remove that circuit from a power strip or UPS. Plug it into the
other receptacle in a duplex power outlet. Protection circuit remains
electrically same. Protector circuit provides exact same protection.
Appreciate how plug-in and UPS protectors are constructed. Appreciate
what manufacturer numerica specs really say. Appreicate why UPS and
power strip protectors have same protection circuits. Appreicate
which type of surges that circuit does and does not protect from.

 

[Linux Geek]

Read closer some of those fine print warranties. From the wording,
a protector from any other manufacturer in the building may void the
warranty. That warranty is typically chock full of exemptions for
good reason. Warranty need not be honored, but warranty is cited as
'proof' that the protector will do something? When did words from a
lawyer constitute science proof? Nothing in that warranty says
anything about protection. But it does list numerous reasons why the
warranty need not be honored.

What does that protector circuit in a UPS do? Again, where are
manufacturer numbers that define each type of surge and that
protection - with numbers? I keep asking for these specs. Why can no
one provide them? Because those specs do not claim protection as
implied by so many here.

Protector circuit in a UPS is the same protector circuit found in
$10 and in $150 power strip protectors. That circuit will protect
from a type of surge that typically does not cause damage. Therefore
it provides surge protection. Therefore they did not lie. They just
forget to mention: it does not even claim to protect from the type of
surge that typically causes damage.

But again, if you believe the UPS has surge protection, then you
have numbers. Post them. What are those numbers for each type of
surge? Why are same numbers also found in numeric spec sheets for
plug-in protectors? Why? Same circuit.

Remove that circuit from a power strip or UPS. Plug it into the
other receptacle in a duplex power outlet. Protection circuit remains
electrically same. Protector circuit provides exact same protection.
Appreciate how plug-in and UPS protectors are constructed. Appreciate
what manufacturer numerica specs really say. Appreicate why UPS and
power strip protectors have same protection circuits. Appreicate
which type of surges that circuit does and does not protect from.

Saweeeet baby jezuz, would someone puleeeze translate the forgoing
humongous great wad of gobbledygook? I have no idea what's being said.

--

__________________________________________________________________
Linux Geek

Saying that XP is the most stable MS OS is like saying that
asparagus is the most articulate vegetable. (Dave Barry)

 

[JAD]

Saweeeet baby jezuz, would someone puleeeze translate the forgoing

humongous great wad of gobbledygook? I have no idea what's being said.

Moral of the story:
Don't expect a warranty if you do anything other than what product is described to do.

 

[Linux Geek]

Moral of the story:
Don't expect a warranty if you do anything other than what product is described to do.

Exactly!!!!

--

__________________________________________________________________
Linux Geek

Saying that XP is the most stable MS OS is like saying that
asparagus is the most articulate vegetable. (Dave Barry)

 

[John Doe]

Exactly!!!!

What product is described to do?

What an incredible lack of definition. You could team up as the
"obscure brothers".

 

[JAD]

What product is described to do?

What an incredible lack of definition. You could team up as the
"obscure brothers".

Yeah one has to be able to 'read' the package and warranty insert.
Which is rather long in some cases. What with your ADD, DDT, Bipolar disorder and numerous
other mental anomalies, it must be impossible for you to get through it.

*what THE product is described to do according to packaging details.

For you folks(J Doh!) that needed a full explanation.

can't you put 2 and 2 together?

 

[John Doe]

Yeah one has to be able to 'read' the package and warranty insert.

Are you sure there is such a thing as a UPS warranty that excludes
putting a surge suppressor between a wall outlet and the UPS? I'm sure
that in some cases it's recommended, especially (but not only) for a
UPS that includes no surge suppression.

Which is rather long in some cases. What with your ADD, DDT, Bipolar
disorder and numerous other mental anomalies, it must be impossible
for you to get through it.

Your mother disagrees, JAD.

*what THE product is described to do according to packaging
details.

That's weird IMO.

How does "what the product is described to do" involve being connected
to a surge suppressor?

For you folks(J Doh!) that needed a full explanation.

Yes, the obsessed troll JAD'S reasoning often escapes me.

can't you put 2 and 2 together?

Yeah, but in JAD'S writing that doesn't always equal four.

 

[JAD]

Are you sure there is such a thing as a UPS warranty that excludes
putting a surge suppressor between a wall outlet and the UPS? I'm sure
that in some cases it's recommended, especially (but not only) for a
UPS that includes no surge suppression.

I don't care about your imaginary situations.

Your mother disagrees, JAD.

add Mother envy to the list

That's weird IMO.

How does "what the product is described to do" involve being connected
to a surge suppressor?

Pffft. there is a booklet that comes with UPS and power strips that describes in great
detail what to do and what not to do.
And for 'you' they even have pictures.

Yes, the obsessed troll JAD'S reasoning often escapes me.


Yeah, but in JAD'S writing that doesn't always equal four.

thats "adding" 2 and 2 I said put 2 and 2 together, that would be 22, you don't follow
directions well