Is Centrino brand all that strong?

[George Macdonald]

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 01:53:02 -0500, George Macdonald wrote:


Did you drive a Chrysler of that era? A new name for the hyde of the
rare Nalga was by far the best thing they had going.

No I didn't drive any but I recall seeing the inside of a non-Montalban
(fine Corinthian....) model at a mall parking lot "show day" and marveling
at the fine detail of the Bordello look interior. Interesting that
Chrysler has revived the ~50 year-old "Hemi" name, meaning BFM (umm, big
motor), to tout its wares recently. Their "merger" with M-B is a fine
match for both.

The drivers for my IBM 11/a/b/g cardbus card have a name on them I've
never heard (and don't remember). I decided to pass on the R50 they were
trying to push on me, so I don't know what the hardware in there is/was.

From what I hear the R5xs are closer to the T4xs and Axx models in feel and
"quality" than they used to be but still not quite "there". As for
NIC/Wi-Fi, I remember now that IBM used to sell some with the Cisco name
but all non-Centrinos now seem to be just labelled as "IBM 11b/g" or no
name at the lower end. Apparently there aren't really many companies left
who actually produce NICs/Wi-Fi... D-Link is one of them.

The ThinkPads I've looked (a small slice of ones on sale, perhaps) at
weren't Centrinos. They were all Pentium-Ms.

I've mainly looked at T4xs - nice systems - and they are mostly Centrino.

Speaking of which, I gotta stock the fridge for the festivities tonight.
What's Vegas have to say about a Harrison "wardrome malfunction"?

Keith, Harrison was the 2nd dead one. McCartney was the dim one and is a
(pious vegan) old fart now into the bargain - I wouldn't expect anything
worth looking at there. OTOH the Philadelphia rabble will be present so
the producers had better be err, vigilant, about fan-flashers with the
latest in mammary (and other forbidden bits) jewelry.

No, but if it's anything like Paris-Hilton, I can believe it. ;-)

Tsk... tsk.

 

[Yousuf Khan]

well, it was not made up, it was a LIE for clicking idiots. Something
along the lines of "now you can click anythink on that porn site, AMD
will protect you from viruses and spyware".

Yeah, I know, but still marketing rules were applied differently between
AMD and Intel.

Yousuf Khan

 

[Yousuf Khan]

No I didn't drive any but I recall seeing the inside of a non-Montalban
(fine Corinthian....) model at a mall parking lot "show day" and marveling
at the fine detail of the Bordello look interior. Interesting that
Chrysler has revived the ~50 year-old "Hemi" name, meaning BFM (umm, big
motor), to tout its wares recently. Their "merger" with M-B is a fine
match for both.

The new Bentley-looking Chrysler 300H was recently tested against ...
gasp, a Bentley, in a car magazine. They started the article off talking
about the advantages of buying a fake Gucci ladies handbag in a back
alley somewhere. It says, "Gucci, made in Italy" on the outside, and it
says, "made in China" on the inside.

The fake handbag is not fake in the sense that it is really a handbag,
and it holds everything that the real handbag will hold. And it's got
the added benefit that it only costs $20 vs. $2000 (or whatever the hell
a real Gucci goes for). So in a similar vein, they tested Bentley
against Bentley rip-off. And the rip-off was faster too (mated to a 425
HP engine)!

Yousuf Khan

 

[George Macdonald]

While AMD's marketing department recently had to pull some radio ads
from Belgium or the Netherlands or somewhere like that, because they
were claiming that their NX-bit technology was a substitute for
anti-virus software. Seems Intel gets away with a few things which AMD
gets caught for.

The idea that the EU or any of its puppet govts would accuse others of
cheating or misleading is a supreme irony.

 

[George Macdonald]

For my own part, I'm fond of Proust. For whatever it's worth, though,
I think my attempted send-up of why Lance Armstrong isn't that
effective for selling outside AMD's core constituency
(anti-establishment gamers) reflects fairly well the level of
rationality at which people actually make these decisions, which is to
say that it isn't rational at all.

Temps perdu??

Or, oh well, there probably is some rationality there, but I wouldn't
claim to be smart enough to parse it. Intel's marketing is: buy what
you're familiar with and what you know will work; no expatriate
Americans on bicycles in France for that message. AMD's message is:
the same old, same old isn't always the best--(gasp!) American winning
(gasp!) the Tour de France is exactly on message. AMD really can't
build its brand in quite the same way as Intel...

Obviously Intel was unknown at one time and IBM gave them a leg up with the
licensing on MCA. They've done well to get the brand recognition they have
but everything gets old and there's always something new. Intel has
certainly stubbed their toe on several counts over recent years...

And at some level, the really important buyers have to understand
that. AMD, for all its accomplishments, is still in the "prove it"
division. Lance Armstrong just the right image for that spot, I
guess; he has to have made believers of the French (other than those
who firmly believe his success is the result of illegal drugs).

In the end I always hope that technology counts. A tough steak with
"sizzle" is still tough and does not bring "repeats".

But Lance Armstrong has ridden his last or next to last tour? DEC is
no more. IBM is still chugging along (although you may have to review
your choice of laptop).

Intel is the one chugging right now from my POV - a complete stall could be
imminent. As for LA, he is said to be contracted, to his new sponsor, for
one more Tour which he almost certainly will not win; he wants to do some
of the one-day classics, the lack of which prevents him from sitting in the
top echelon with the likes of Merckx... but the Eddie did them all in the
same years.

 

[chrisv]

Corinthian Leather was successful enough to get a writeup in the Wall
Street Journal, and Chrysler stuck with the ad campaign through many
millions of dollars. I think that campaign was well into the focus
group era. Did it sell cars? Would I be spending time here if I
_really_ knew the answer to questions like that? ;-).

I still remember those ads, and Corinthian leather was only one of the
awesome features that were touted. Others were "AM/FM cassette radio"
(Wow! Those are a whole $20 at Best Buy.) and, my personal favorite,
"optional wire wheel covers" (Wow! I can pay extra and get wire
wheel covers? And I can't do that on other cars?)

 

[Robert Myers]

Temps perdu??

Reading Proust or playing weird computer games? A little bit of
Proust goes a long way, but if you're completely unaware of what A la
Recherche is on about, you're still living in the nineteenth century.
Or perhaps earlier. I had an English professor accuse me of having my
head stuck in the eighteenth century. As a friend pointed out, there
are worse places to have your consciousness stuck. As it is, though,
I don't think Proust was completely lost on me.

This exchange has pushed me back into the "Does it really matter?"
mode. Intel's real marketing triumph has been to change the subject,
and, as usual, I'm completely bought in. The processors themselves
aren't going to get that much faster. What matters is how they are
connected. The Centrino campaign is one front in that offensive.

I never did like AMD? I think Opteron is great. I just don't think
it's the future.

Obviously Intel was unknown at one time and IBM gave them a leg up with the
licensing on MCA. They've done well to get the brand recognition they have
but everything gets old and there's always something new. Intel has
certainly stubbed their toe on several counts over recent years...
corporate senility?<shrug>
Maybe.


In the end I always hope that technology counts. A tough steak with
"sizzle" is still tough and does not bring "repeats".

The sizzle is in the interconnect.

Intel is the one chugging right now from my POV - a complete stall could be
imminent. <snip>

Anything is possible. The whole industry has lost its sizzle. I'm
not sure I understand why. The potential of the internet is far from
tapped out. About half of all venture capital money in the U.S. still
goes into software startups. There are so many things computers
should be good at that they're still not up to. Intel won't be part
of whatever action there is? I really doubt it.

RM

 

[George Macdonald]

Reading Proust or playing weird computer games? A little bit of
Proust goes a long way, but if you're completely unaware of what A la
Recherche is on about, you're still living in the nineteenth century.
Or perhaps earlier. I had an English professor accuse me of having my
head stuck in the eighteenth century. As a friend pointed out, there
are worse places to have your consciousness stuck. As it is, though,
I don't think Proust was completely lost on me.

This exchange has pushed me back into the "Does it really matter?"
mode. Intel's real marketing triumph has been to change the subject,
and, as usual, I'm completely bought in. The processors themselves
aren't going to get that much faster. What matters is how they are
connected. The Centrino campaign is one front in that offensive.

Correction!: Intel processors are not going to go much faster -- SOI
unnecessary<ptui> -- until they learn to follow when needs *dictate*.
EM64T *might* be a sign there, no matter how difficult in the gullet, but
their absurd claims that AMD "used Intel technology" to develop AMD64 are
somewhat of a contradiction there. AMD, and IBM (+Sony/Toshiba) for that
matter, have a few MHz to gain yet and Intel still doesn't have EM64T for
their Pentium-M series; I hope they haven't left it to the skunk-works
again.

I never did like AMD? I think Opteron is great. I just don't think
it's the future.

I don't see what's to like or not - both corps make processors which are
err, likeable or otherwise. I *used* to like Intel's processors and I
*used* to like their corporate "attitude", especially to end users.
Arrogance put paid to that a while back. BTW did you notice that Barrett
and Otellini dumped $12M and $3M respectively of shares last month?
Otellini lacks self-confidence?... and Barrett agrees?... or what?

Like I said, nothing's forever - Opteron will do as "great" for the
foreseeable future until the next thing comes along. I err, like it and it
sure as hell beats what Intel is doing in the field. It's funny how the
"analysts" miss the real story here: when Intel had to resort to dumping
its flash parts to leave AMD short of overall revenue, they saw it as a
sign of AMD's weakness.

The sizzle is in the interconnect.

For Centrino yes but it's all a bit too vague as a competitive advantage to
even me... never mind the average buyer. Who'd notice the difference in
the "interconnect" if the Wi-Fi was a D-Link or Cisco part? Personally,
I've had trouble with Intel's wired part of the NIC on auto-negotiation -
given a choice, I'd choose something which works.

Anything is possible. The whole industry has lost its sizzle. I'm
not sure I understand why. The potential of the internet is far from
tapped out. About half of all venture capital money in the U.S. still
goes into software startups. There are so many things computers
should be good at that they're still not up to. Intel won't be part
of whatever action there is? I really doubt it.

Competition is good for us mere end users.

 

[keith]

Yeah, I know, but still marketing rules were applied differently between
AMD and Intel.

Intel was smart enough to use the "experience" adjective. That's
subjective. Protecting you from virii is objectively false. If AMD had
said that virii would be harder to catch, they'd have a case.

 

[keith]

I don't see what's to like or not - both corps make processors which are
err, likeable or otherwise. I *used* to like Intel's processors and I
*used* to like their corporate "attitude", especially to end users.
Arrogance put paid to that a while back. BTW did you notice that Barrett
and Otellini dumped $12M and $3M respectively of shares last month?
Otellini lacks self-confidence?... and Barrett agrees?... or what?

Ohh, I hadn't seen that! Perhaps it's time to buy *more* AMD.

Like I said, nothing's forever - Opteron will do as "great" for the
foreseeable future until the next thing comes along. I err, like it and it
sure as hell beats what Intel is doing in the field. It's funny how the
"analysts" miss the real story here: when Intel had to resort to dumping
its flash parts to leave AMD short of overall revenue, they saw it as a
sign of AMD's weakness.

Did you see the article where they don't believe Intel's processor
position either? Some are saying they've scrapped mucho product to be
inventory short. ...though those reports have been denied. It seems all
is not well in the kingdom.

For Centrino yes but it's all a bit too vague as a competitive advantage
to even me... never mind the average buyer. Who'd notice the difference
in the "interconnect" if the Wi-Fi was a D-Link or Cisco part?
Personally, I've had trouble with Intel's wired part of the NIC on
auto-negotiation - given a choice, I'd choose something which works.

The issue is whether they know what a "Centrino" is. The customer really
doesn't care. Hell, they're still buying Celerons. My bet is that they
don't know the difference. "Celeron" good! "Centrino" more expensive!

Competition is good for us mere end users.

Not when you're a Cray-1 bigot. ;-)

 

[keith]

No I didn't drive any but I recall seeing the inside of a non-Montalban
(fine Corinthian....) model at a mall parking lot "show day" and marveling
at the fine detail of the Bordello look interior.

You'er being too kind. French whore (is that redundant?), is more like
it.

I'm sure you never saw the line of cars out back with no trannies in 'em.
Those were customer's cars. It often took three months to get a tranny.
They couldn't *REBUILD* them fast enough. That's why Chrysler just about
went under.

Well that and the issue of building three-months worth of cars that had
nowhere to go but the rail-yards. It seems Chrysler mamagement was paid
bonuses based on card built, not cars sold. If the customers didn't buy,
the dealers didn't either. Is it a wonder than when LI took over that he
fired all but one in the executive suite?

Interesting that Chrysler has revived the ~50 year-old "Hemi" name, meaning BFM (umm, big
motor), to tout its wares recently. Their "merger" with M-B is a fine
match for both.

It's a "little" more than a name for a BFE. It is a "techie" thing too.
Damn, I forgot to check today. You wouldn't recognize the name though.

From what I hear the R5xs are closer to the T4xs and Axx models in feel
and "quality" than they used to be but still not quite "there".

I was *not* about to give up my 1600x1200 display for a 1024x768. They
couldn't give me the exact model number, so I checked around. Yech! No
thanks! I'll keep my A21p another few years (or less ;-).

As for
NIC/Wi-Fi, I remember now that IBM used to sell some with the Cisco name
but all non-Centrinos now seem to be just labelled as "IBM 11b/g" or no
name at the lower end. Apparently there aren't really many companies
left who actually produce NICs/Wi-Fi... D-Link is one of them.

I'll have to look. I really use the ThinkPad more or less as a desktop,
though with the WiFI I do undock it for go-to-meeting day. It's a PITA
because I have to shut it down and the tens of winders with it. Shutting
down my telnet connections into the various machines is much painfull.

I've mainly looked at T4xs - nice systems - and they are mostly
Centrino.

I wuz looking more at the R5s and some T4s, though the latter is more of
a road-warrier thing.

Keith, Harrison was the 2nd dead one.

....just checking to see if you were paying attention (actually I realized
I made the misteak shortly after I hit the send button, but I had beer to
buy and I was hopeing no one would notice .

McCartney was the dim one and is a (pious vegan) old fart now into the bargain
-I wouldn't expect anything worth looking at there.

....and JJ was? Even her brother is cuter.

OTOH the Philadelphia rabble will be
present so the producers had better be err, vigilant, about fan-flashers
with the latest in mammary (and other forbidden bits) jewelry.

As expecter, the Philly rabble got theirs! Thy'll be quiet for
another, what, 25 years? ;-)

Tsk... tsk.

What me? I only know what I've heard. I'm as clean as the Vermont
snow. 0;-)

Of course it hasn't for two weeks and it's been 40-50F and sunny for
four days, so you can some to your own conclusions.

 

[keith]

Both can run down the toilet, AFAIC.

The new Bentley-looking Chrysler 300H was recently tested against ...
gasp, a Bentley, in a car magazine. They started the article off talking
about the advantages of buying a fake Gucci ladies handbag in a back
alley somewhere. It says, "Gucci, made in Italy" on the outside, and it
says, "made in China" on the inside.

A friend has one of these. ...at least I think it's a Gucci (the
rip-off part I know). It's *UUUGGGLYYY*. What do I know. Hell, want a
Cartier or Rolex? I'll send you my spam.

The fake handbag is not fake in the sense that it is really a handbag,
and it holds everything that the real handbag will hold. And it's got
the added benefit that it only costs $20 vs. $2000 (or whatever the hell
a real Gucci goes for). So in a similar vein, they tested Bentley
against Bentley rip-off. And the rip-off was faster too (mated to a 425
HP engine)!

The difference is that I wouldn't pay $20 for the Chrysler. ...and I had
'em for close to 20 years.

 

[keith]

I still remember those ads, and Corinthian leather was only one of the
awesome features that were touted. Others were "AM/FM cassette radio"
(Wow! Those are a whole $20 at Best Buy.) and, my personal favorite,
"optional wire wheel covers" (Wow! I can pay extra and get wire
wheel covers? And I can't do that on other cars?)

What do you pay for an auto radio today? Just because you can buy a
"transistor" radio for $20 at K-Mart doesn't mean the radio in the car is
the same thing.

 

[George Macdonald]

Ohh, I hadn't seen that! Perhaps it's time to buy *more* AMD.

A closer look at the bigger picture here at
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/it?s=INTC indicates it may just be keeping the
same holding while they exercise fresh options... so maybe not as sinister
as I thought.

Did you see the article where they don't believe Intel's processor
position either? Some are saying they've scrapped mucho product to be
inventory short. ...though those reports have been denied. It seems all
is not well in the kingdom.

What?... ya mean off the books?... or hidden in some other "transactions"?

The issue is whether they know what a "Centrino" is. The customer really
doesn't care. Hell, they're still buying Celerons. My bet is that they
don't know the difference. "Celeron" good! "Centrino" more expensive!

Yeah I know what you mean. I have people, some at the office, come to me
asking what to buy - I tell them and they all immediately turn around and
buy Dell - "such a great deal".<shrug>

 

[George Macdonald]

You'er being too kind. French whore (is that redundant?), is more like
it.

Err, I can't go there - my wife is French... though I admit we've butted
umm, opinions, on Chirac, his henchmen and "French diplomacy" recently.

I'm sure you never saw the line of cars out back with no trannies in 'em.
Those were customer's cars. It often took three months to get a tranny.
They couldn't *REBUILD* them fast enough. That's why Chrysler just about
went under.

I recall renting a Dodge Dart back around 1980 - whined like an old
streetcar.

It's a "little" more than a name for a BFE. It is a "techie" thing too.

Huh?? Hemispherical head/combustion chambers were a tech thing ~1930.

I was *not* about to give up my 1600x1200 display for a 1024x768. They
couldn't give me the exact model number, so I checked around. Yech! No
thanks! I'll keep my A21p another few years (or less ;-).

I hear the Flexview IPS screens are just beautiful... but expensive.

 

[Robert Myers]

Correction!: Intel processors are not going to go much faster -- SOI
unnecessary<ptui> -- until they learn to follow when needs *dictate*.
EM64T *might* be a sign there, no matter how difficult in the gullet, but
their absurd claims that AMD "used Intel technology" to develop AMD64 are
somewhat of a contradiction there. AMD, and IBM (+Sony/Toshiba) for that
matter, have a few MHz to gain yet and Intel still doesn't have EM64T for
their Pentium-M series; I hope they haven't left it to the skunk-works
again.

I made an intense effort to understand what was going on with process
technology when all the surprises came down at 90nm, but since then
I've lost track of process technology. If Intel really has lost the
playbook, that would be news, but I don't really believe it.

As to performance, which I've also lost track of, Power5 and Itanium
seem to have run away from the pack on CFP2000. That's the horse race
that Intel wants. As to the pack, AMD is in the hunt, but only just.

CFP2000 not a realistic measure of real-world performance? Probably
not, but then what is, other than your own code? Yes, it is easier to
write naive code for AMD processors than it is to write naive code for
NetBurst or for Itanium.

Competition is good for us mere end users.

Well of course it is.

There are predictions floating around now that world oil production
may have peaked or may be about to peak. Depends on who you ask. If
you look at the methodology of both sides of the argument, it's pure
voodoo. The petroleum geologists fit curves. The econometrics guys
use computer models (is your soul stained with these kinds of sins,
George?) that either have obvious problems or are so complicated that
no one understands them. It's a battle over prejudices. The
_results_ are quoted widely in the press, because the press has to
fill all those column inches with something.

I mention "peak oil" here because off-topic rambling is my style, and
because it reminds me a bit of the microprocessor business, which
seems to have run out of steam. Past predictions of the future of
world oil production and energy usage have been so far off the mark as
to be useless. At some point, the world will switch from oil to
something else. Nobody knows when, to what, or at what price. We are
similarly ignorant of the future of the microprocessor business.

Small differences that don't seem to point anywhere don't seem very
interesting to me. The switch to SOC designs interests me. The
switch to stream processors interests me. A better interconnect
interests me. All those things interest me because they have the
potential to change the rules.

The problem with microprocessors right now isn't that they can't be
made to go faster. The problem is that the application space that can
be accessed with a conventional single-processor architecture seems to
have been pretty thoroughly explored. Just as three-D seismography
quietly changed the rules in petroleum exploration, though, new
technology can change the rules for microprocessors. I don't think
that AMD taking aim at the Centrino brand is movement in that
direction, though.

RM

 

[Robert Myers]

Not when you're a Cray-1 bigot. ;-)

Not a Cray bigot, Keith, a bandwidth bigot. A company with which you
have some familiarity is peddling a "super"computer with a bisection
bandwidth in the range of a few dozen millibytes per flop or less.
I'll be fascinated to see if the oil companies, indeed, if any genuine
economic buyer actually purchases one. IBM has announced a paper on
using that machine to do FFT's, a calculation that is driven by
bisection bandwidth. Last I could discover, it was still "in
preparation."

RM

 

[Keith R. Williams]

What?... ya mean off the books?... or hidden in some other "transactions"?

My wife sent this to me a few weeks ago. You tell me. See in
particular: "Intel's inventory enigma".

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/P102178.asp

Yeah I know what you mean. I have people, some at the office, come to me
asking what to buy - I tell them and they all immediately turn around and
buy Dell - "such a great deal".<shrug>

There's a lot of that going around.

 

[keith]

Not a Cray bigot, Keith, a bandwidth bigot.

1) No, you're a streaming processsor (a.k.a. Cray 1) bigot.

2) See smiley.

A company with which you have some familiarity

You've figured that part out anyway. ;-)

is peddling a "super"computer with a bisection
bandwidth in the range of a few dozen millibytes per flop or less.
I'll be fascinated to see if the oil companies, indeed, if any genuine
economic buyer actually purchases one. IBM has announced a paper on
using that machine to do FFT's, a calculation that is driven by
bisection bandwidth. Last I could discover, it was still "in
preparation."

If you have the money to spend, I'm sure you too can find someone willing
to accept it and give you what you dream of. Frankly, money talks and
science begs.

 

[keith]

Err, I can't go there - my wife is French...

Nothing personal, I assure you.

though I admit we've butted umm, opinions, on Chirac, his henchmen
and "French diplomacy" recently.

....but I wouldn't lift a finger if France was run-over by the Germans,
once again.

I recall renting a Dodge Dart back around 1980 - whined like an old
streetcar.

Your wife would too if she had to walk home. The things were just about
as bad as my '70 Gremlin (*the* most appropriately named car in history).
Note that Chrysler bought AMC.

Huh?? Hemispherical head/combustion chambers were a tech thing ~1930.

I didn't say it was in any way *new*. "Hemi" is a little more than
BFE though. Hell I've seen flat-head BFE's. ...doesn't make flat-head ==
BFE either.

I hear the Flexview IPS screens are just beautiful... but expensive.

Haven't seen one. But they're not about to issue "expensive" to those
who's title doesn't start with an 'ex'. Indeed the only 'ex' title I'll
ever see has a hyphen after the 'x'.