Intel: The chipset is the product

  • Thread starter Thread starter Robert Myers
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chrisv said:
Well, they're probably in a state of shock over what appears to be the
impending death of IA64. They had high hopes for that unclonable
architecture, and the profitability of a de facto monopoly at the high
end. Now it seems that they'll have to slug it out in AMD and the
others for a couple more decades... 8)

Hey maybe it's a good sign for the architecture, but what appears to be the
first Windows for IA64 virus was discovered this week. :-)

http://www.techtree.com/techtree/jsp/showstory.jsp?storyid=52738

Yousuf Khan
 
Yousuf said:
As they say, if you don't try any other products other than the ones you're
comfortable with, then how are you ever going to know the quality of the
competing products?

There is the philosophy that you should let others do the testing for
you, if possible. Unless you have a special personal or professional
interest in different kinds of hardware, what justification would there
be for serving as a volunteer hardware tester?

Who knows whether the spotty reputation AMD acquired was deserved or
not. At this point, one would most likely think not, and that the
chipset manufacturers were the common source of problems. That should
be good news for AMD, but it's not, because I don't sense that anyone
has established a reputation for chipset reliability that is comparable
to Intel's, and you can't plug an AMD processor into an Intel motherboard.

The chipset and the compiler stop me every time I think about an AMD
purchase. I've had enough hardware adventures for a while, thank you.
One gathers that Chris feels the same way, and it's not an opinion
either of us formed in a vacuum. Not an immutable position, but wait
and see doesn't seem wrong. You have to give Intel credit. In pushing
the chipset issue, they are playing to a widely-perceived strength.
Doesn't that seem more attractive than selling megahertz, anyway?


RM
 
chrisv said:
Well, I have eyes and ears, and yes, still some prejudices. 8)

Yes, yes, that we know. ;-)
One example: A friend of mine, who had purchased a PC pre-configured
with Lindows 3. Cheap, brand-X motherboard and chipset, of course.
When he installed Lindows 4 on the same machine, the sound wouldn't
work. We tried some other Linux distributions and had issues with the
on-board video. Yuck. He's now ordering, on my recommendation, an
Intel D865GBFL, and I'd be shocked it if wasn't properly supported
(we're putting on the new Fedora Core 2, again on my recommendation).

I had tried Knoppix on a CD boot, and I was pretty impressed with how well,
it booted up on many desktop systems. It detected pretty much everything on
my system. It boot fine on a friend's system, however it didn't recognize
any of the drives on his Promise SATA card (nor the card itself for that
matter), but that's okay, it didn't lock up either. However, it had a lot of
trouble booting up on my old P3-350Mhz Toshiba Satellite notebook -- it just
plainly locked.

Then a week back, I went to visit a cousin of mine, he was showing me his
P4 laptop. One partition running XP, the other partition running Gentoo. The
Gentoo booted and all fine, but it didn't really seem to have a lot of stuff
to do, almost nothing was automated, he had to start up KDE by hand at the
root prompt, etc. And even with KDE running all he seemed to be able to do
was run a web browser. I said you can probably find all of the stuff for
Gentoo to make it really nice by scowering the Internet, or you could go
with a different distro and have everything built in. I asked my cousin why
he chose Gentoo? He said it was because his friends said that since it is a
compiled-from-source distro, it was likely to be a more optimize kernel than
a generic distro. However, he's not exactly a guru of Windows, let alone
Linux, so I suggested that he go find a different distro and get some better
useability out of it. I suggested Fedora since it's basically Red Hat, but I
don't have personal experience with it.

I guess the point is these days, it would be a distro that would make the
difference between compatibility with Linux or not, rather than the chipset.
Lindows 3 worked on that PC, but why not Lindows 4? Would switching to a new
motherboard, while at the same time switching to a different Linux fix his
problems? If so, then which one fixed it, the motherboard or the distro?

Yousuf Khan
 
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Then a week back, I went to visit a cousin of mine, he was showing me his
P4 laptop. One partition running XP, the other partition running Gentoo. The
Gentoo booted and all fine, but it didn't really seem to have a lot of stuff
to do, almost nothing was automated, he had to start up KDE by hand at the
root prompt, etc. And even with KDE running all he seemed to be able to do
was run a web browser.

"rc-update add xdm default" (combined with making sure DISPLAYMANAGER is set
to "kdm" in /etc/rc.conf) would've fixed the X11-not-loading-at-boot
problem. For someone just getting started with Linux (any Linux), it's not
obvious (though it is in the documentation).

I mostly run without X (and don't bother setting up audio) on my Linux
boxes, but that's mainly because most of them are servers, routers, and
other stuff that doesn't need X. The two Linux desktop machines I'm running
(a dual-boot Win2K/Gentoo box at work and a Gentoo MythTV box at home) went
together without much fuss...and they're both Athlon XPs (1600 at work on an
nForce2 board with a GeForce4MX 440 and on-board audio, and a 2400 at home
on a KT266A board with a GeForceFX 5200, Turtle Beach Riviera, and WinTV
PVR350).

_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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Scott Alfter said:
I mostly run without X (and don't bother setting up audio) on my Linux
boxes, but that's mainly because most of them are servers, routers,
and
other stuff that doesn't need X. The two Linux desktop machines I'm
running (a dual-boot Win2K/Gentoo box at work and a Gentoo MythTV box
at home) went together without much fuss...and they're both Athlon
XPs (1600 at work on an nForce2 board with a GeForce4MX 440 and
on-board audio, and a 2400 at home
on a KT266A board with a GeForceFX 5200, Turtle Beach Riviera, and
WinTV PVR350).

Would suggesting Fedora to a newbie, be a good or bad move?

Yousuf Khan
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Yousuf Khan said:
Would suggesting Fedora to a newbie, be a good or bad move?

I'm hardly a Linux newbie (10 years and counting :), but based on my
recent install of the Fedora Core 2, yes, suggesting Fedora looks like
a good move to me.

The only problem I had was that it didn't detect/understand my
GFX/monitor combo (Matrox G450 and an oldish 17" Hitachi) correctly,
so I had to edit the X config file to get 1280x1204 and 1024x768
resolution running.

Regards,


Kai
 
They've definitely been clearing ground for this current agenda for a
while, but I think it's fair to infer that the exact timing and delivery
of much of this stuff is being forced upon them. If Prescott had turned
out the way Intel wanted to, we'd be hearing about Megahertz, not chipsets.

I think their getting too close to actual consumer products for their own
good - quite a dilemma for them as to how far they tread on the toes of
consumer name-brand OEMs in their quest to own the market.
Intel is using the relative technological unsophistication of those who
write for the press to get its advertising message across as hard news.
They didn't invent the game, of course. Every technology company
draws from the same pool of PR types, and it would be amazing if the PR
style of Intel differed significantly from industry norms in terms of
what comes natural.

Intel does seem to me to be much more calculating about its message than
most, and they seem to make it work for them. I am probably more
inclined than the average technologist to pay attention to these sorts
of things, but it really does seem to me that you can't understand what
Intel is up to without understanding the messages it is trying to
convey. That's why I take up bandwidth in hardware groups calling
attention on it. :-).

Calculating maybe but I think it has more to do with the susceptibility of
the microprocessor market to BS... due to the presence of a bunch of
(mostly) ignorant "analysts" who are presented as, and perceived by the
even more ignorant news agencies like Reuters, as gurus of the industry.
The news chain is simply primed for BS... for no good reason. The Inquirer
and The Register to the rescue??:-)
As to genuine cluelessness/misinformation, it seems to me like you would
need some kind of logarithmic scale. Consumers aren't very well
informed about the actual properties of the laundry detergents they buy.
The difference, you might fairly object, is that technical-sounding
press releases from Proctor and Gamble don't frequently show up in the
press as hard news. Don't know what to say about that.

People have a direct method of "benchmarking" their detergents though -
they know that, e.g., a store brand detergent gets used up faster or leaves
a horrible scent on their shirts and blouses. Perhaps the auto industry
would be a better comparison as far as consumer technology but the $$ per
finished product is in a different ball-park. There, the outsource
companies take an intentionally low profile - e.g. how many people know
that Magna Steyr builds whole vehicles for M.B and BMW, who gladly put
their "griffe" on them.

In the auto industry there is plenty of expert opinion BS of course but the
consumer is generally in a good position to see it as opinion. The
"experts" cannot, however, get away with the kind of incompetence we see in
many computer industry articles where, either the analyst being quoted is
clueless or the author so unqualified that it all turns out as umm, tripe.
The prognostications on 64-bit x86 are a prime example of this - take a
look at the 64-bit Support section of
http://enterprise-windows-it.newsfactor.com/perl/story/24055.html where it
looks like the author is just so inadequate to the task that he shouldn't
be writing about the computer industry. Add in the "analyst" bias/misread
and what comes out is gobbledygook.
I give Intel considerable credit for having successfully cultivated a
market by persuading so many people that they needed all that muscle to
begin with. I don't think things like that just happen. I have to be
careful with this line of thinking, though, because it would eventually
lead to my expression very grudging admiration for Microsoft, and we
wouldn't want that.

You need to start worrying about your favorite topic though, now that M$
has declared its intention to enter the HPC market.<chuckle>

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
 
In the auto industry there is plenty of expert opinion BS of course but the
consumer is generally in a good position to see it as opinion. The
"experts" cannot, however, get away with the kind of incompetence we see in
many computer industry articles where, either the analyst being quoted is
clueless or the author so unqualified that it all turns out as umm, tripe.
The prognostications on 64-bit x86 are a prime example of this - take a
look at the 64-bit Support section of
http://enterprise-windows-it.newsfactor.com/perl/story/24055.html where it
looks like the author is just so inadequate to the task that he shouldn't
be writing about the computer industry. Add in the "analyst" bias/misread
and what comes out is gobbledygook.

Apologies in advance to the author, James Maguire, who is probably a
decent, hardworking person, but my suggested title for the entire
article would be "Bart Simpson Reports on Windows."

What had been two of my favorite _New_Yorker_ columnists both quit
contributing regularly with plenty of mileage left in them, because, as
I remember them both pleading, they liked to write, and they liked to
write for _The_New_Yorker_, but they didn't like to write on a deadline.

Even leaving aside the challenge of churning out copy on demand, just
imagine trying to do a better job of trying to inform readers what might
happen that really matters as a result of 64-bit support in Windows.
Time to talk about the usefulness of more named registers, right? :-).
Just imagine it: a 20-page pullout in industry rags that talks about
memory latency, out of order execution, register renaming, register
starvation and spilling, L1 latency, L2 latency, and pipeline stalls,
complete with slick color graphics and an interactive web page you can
go to for more information. Advertising should sell like half-time
spots for the Super Bowl. I feel faint just thinking about it.

<quote>

"That's huge," Bittman said, noting that "a large percentage of the
sales will become 64-bit Windows very quickly because of this support."

</quote>

Super! Don't know what it is, but everybody will have it. They'll have
the hardware, they'll have the software, and it must be important
because Unix and Linux have had it for a long time, whatever it is.
Maybe you can find the real substance by paying for the relevant Gartner
report. Not that anything that was quoted in the article would
encourage a reader who was paying attention to do that, but, marketing
being the way that it is, it's probably more important to Gartner to be
quoted than to be quoted saying anything that bears examination.

You need to start worrying about your favorite topic though, now that M$
has declared its intention to enter the HPC market.<chuckle>

You barely know me. I already made a post to the Beowulf mailing list
suggesting that the HPC community should seize this opportunity to get
as much Microsoft money as possible. HPC is, like racing cars, a
money-losing proposition. How much would Microsoft sink into a grand
challenge problem to say that a grand challenge problem was solved using
Windows? The cost of the actual scientific enterprise to Microsoft? A
day's earnings if it went hog wild. Cost to hype it to the press?
Several times that. Value to Microsoft in getting people to stop
thinking of them as a predatory monopolist? Priceless. Time for
science to get on the gravy train.

RM
 
Apologies in advance to the author, James Maguire, who is probably a
decent, hardworking person, but my suggested title for the entire
article would be "Bart Simpson Reports on Windows."

What had been two of my favorite _New_Yorker_ columnists both quit
contributing regularly with plenty of mileage left in them, because, as
I remember them both pleading, they liked to write, and they liked to
write for _The_New_Yorker_, but they didn't like to write on a deadline.

Even leaving aside the challenge of churning out copy on demand, just
imagine trying to do a better job of trying to inform readers what might
happen that really matters as a result of 64-bit support in Windows.
Time to talk about the usefulness of more named registers, right? :-).
Just imagine it: a 20-page pullout in industry rags that talks about
memory latency, out of order execution, register renaming, register
starvation and spilling, L1 latency, L2 latency, and pipeline stalls,
complete with slick color graphics and an interactive web page you can
go to for more information. Advertising should sell like half-time
spots for the Super Bowl. I feel faint just thinking about it.

Well yeah the "more named registers" is a big part of it but for the usual
shallow press coverage, there are other ways to get the message across.
like: finally we have a desktop PC which is worthy of the term computer;
internally it's just like a *real* computer; we can finally leave behind
the legacy of a hand calculator ISA; software can be made more efficient;
compilers can produce better code... etc. etc.
Super! Don't know what it is, but everybody will have it. They'll have
the hardware, they'll have the software, and it must be important
because Unix and Linux have had it for a long time, whatever it is.
Maybe you can find the real substance by paying for the relevant Gartner
report. Not that anything that was quoted in the article would
encourage a reader who was paying attention to do that, but, marketing
being the way that it is, it's probably more important to Gartner to be
quoted than to be quoted saying anything that bears examination.

Hmm, probably better for Gartner to be quoted than some other analyst
"house"?:-) Have you been quoted by such writers? Apparently there are
journos who read Usenet - one of them contacted me recently by e-mail for
my "opinion". What I said/wrote got lifted out of context, mangled and
didn't really say what I wanted at all. said:
You barely know me. I already made a post to the Beowulf mailing list
suggesting that the HPC community should seize this opportunity to get
as much Microsoft money as possible. HPC is, like racing cars, a
money-losing proposition. How much would Microsoft sink into a grand
challenge problem to say that a grand challenge problem was solved using
Windows? The cost of the actual scientific enterprise to Microsoft? A
day's earnings if it went hog wild. Cost to hype it to the press?
Several times that. Value to Microsoft in getting people to stop
thinking of them as a predatory monopolist? Priceless. Time for
science to get on the gravy train.

If you can find yourself a niche there, good luck to you. I assume you are
aware of the dangers of dealing with them - sewing up your pockets won't do
it.;-)

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
 
Hmm, probably better for Gartner to be quoted than some other analyst
"house"?:-) Have you been quoted by such writers? Apparently there are
journos who read Usenet - one of them contacted me recently by e-mail for
my "opinion". What I said/wrote got lifted out of context, mangled and
didn't really say what I wanted at all.<shrug>
[snipped]

The premise that there's anyone taking seriously anything the Gartner Group
has to say is hilarious...

/daytripper ("Gartner: searching for the bottom in the clueless hack biz")
 
George said:
Well yeah the "more named registers" is a big part of it but for the usual
shallow press coverage, there are other ways to get the message across.
like: finally we have a desktop PC which is worthy of the term computer;
internally it's just like a *real* computer; we can finally leave behind
the legacy of a hand calculator ISA; software can be made more efficient;
compilers can produce better code... etc. etc.

You are, as always, so much more sensible than I am. I suspect, though,
that there are people in the business with a mainframe heritage who
twitch at the thought that anything built on an x86 could ever be
regarded as a "real" computer.

To pick but one issue of many, the fact that x86 doesn't virtualize has
started to bother me. I'm afraid of getting myself into the mess of the
parallel thread about the NX bit, but I'm beginning to wonder if
anything short of a complete hardware sandbox should ever be regarded as
a plausibly secure solution to any enterprise application that faces a
network.

In the sense of being something that is worthy to displace boxes with
the reassuring IBM logo on them, x86-64 is only slightly less screwy
than x86, and not any more safe, as far as I can tell. For producing
efficient code, it is probably a significant win. For enterprise
applications, though, I wonder if the reduced likelihood of bugs by
virtue of having a flat address space isn't the biggest win of all.
Hmm, probably better for Gartner to be quoted than some other analyst
"house"?:-) Have you been quoted by such writers? Apparently there are
journos who read Usenet - one of them contacted me recently by e-mail for
my "opinion". What I said/wrote got lifted out of context, mangled and
didn't really say what I wanted at all.<shrug>

I get e-mail from lurkers with a serious agenda, although I'll sidestep
saying just who. Have I been quoted? Don't know.

I wouldn't want to leave the impression that I have a low opinion of
Gartner; Gartner is one of the few places I would consider paying for
research.

The quality of talent that's out there is so hopelessly nonuniform, and
trying to discover and to convey accurate, journalist-quality
information to an audience that lacks the preparation sounds like a
nearly impossible problem.

While we're on the subject, you might want to google up and read the
_New_York_Times_ article "There's a Sucker Born in Every Medial
Prefrontal Cortex," which can be found online in any number of
locations. I consider myself reasonably advanced just to recognize that
there is a technology of persuasion that has gone well beyond
_The_Hidden_Persuaders_ and that it matters, even to technologists.
Even as I discuss these things, though, I have to keep in mind that I,
too, have a medial prefrontal cortex.
If you can find yourself a niche there, good luck to you. I assume you are
aware of the dangers of dealing with them - sewing up your pockets won't do
it.;-)

Oh, heaven forfend. Just another example of my being what I regard as
realistic: what is Microsoft _really_ up to, and what's the best way to
prosper given the ongoing reality of Microsoft dominance. I wouldn't go
at it with anything less than the resources of the Cornell Theory
Center, which has already gotten on the gravy train.

I wandered past the William H. Gates building (and the Stata Center) at
MIT yesterday. MIT is finally putting up buildings that are worthy of
its prestigious architecture department. Too bad about the name above
the door. Richard Stallman is so displeased that he's said he's moving
out, although he's blaming it on the security system they've chosen.
The Microsoft legacy is going to be everywhere. We might as well try to
get used to it.

RM
 
Yousuf Khan said:
Would suggesting Fedora to a newbie, be a good or bad mov

I think it would be good. Just be sure to tell them about apt4rpm for
installing packages.
 
Robert said:
You barely know me. I already made a post to the Beowulf mailing list
suggesting that the HPC community should seize this opportunity to get
as much Microsoft money as possible. HPC is, like racing cars, a
money-losing proposition. How much would Microsoft sink into a grand
challenge problem to say that a grand challenge problem was solved using
Windows? The cost of the actual scientific enterprise to Microsoft? A
day's earnings if it went hog wild. Cost to hype it to the press?
Several times that. Value to Microsoft in getting people to stop
thinking of them as a predatory monopolist? Priceless. Time for
science to get on the gravy train.

When you're marketing to morons you can say or do anything and spin it
as a breakthru. String meaningless unrelated terms together, like
"Microsoft will set up a Windows Bayowolf (mouth breathers like phonetic
spelling) cluster to run distributed setiathome and find the largest
prime number." And the public would be really impressed... Maybe add to
the end of that "which Intel will embed in the design of the new
Septinium processor." There is no limit to how impressive you can be if
what you say doesn't mean anything.

Can we look for processors in designer colors next?
 
Bill said:
When you're marketing to morons you can say or do anything and spin it
as a breakthru. String meaningless unrelated terms together, like
"Microsoft will set up a Windows Bayowolf (mouth breathers like phonetic
spelling) cluster to run distributed setiathome and find the largest
prime number." And the public would be really impressed... Maybe add to
the end of that "which Intel will embed in the design of the new
Septinium processor." There is no limit to how impressive you can be if
what you say doesn't mean anything.

Is it inconnceivable that Microsoft money could produce something at
which the public really should be impressed?

Would Microsoft involvement in science or mathematics be any less
attractive than IBM's involvement in computer chess?

http://www.research.ibm.com/deepblue/home/html/b.html

I don't _think_ the matches added anything to our fund of understanding
about computers, I interpret what Kasparov has had to say about the
match as meaning he has, um, reservations about the human in the loop
aspect of the match on the side of Deep Blue, and it is not entirely
unfair to characterize what IBM was doing as corporate grandstanding.

I wouldn't characterize the customers IBM was aiming at as morons,
though. Technologically and mathematically naive and probably unfit to
make the technology decisions they do make, yes, but not morons.

I've made such a fuss about IBM posturing as a leader in HPC and buyin
by the US DoE (which may actually be encouraging the posturing and
probably wants the world to think that it, too, is in the business of
chess matches) that some might think I have it in for IBM when I'm
actually an IBM admirer.

Big science is expensive, glamorous, and politically charged. Would
science, mathematics, and computation be better off if IBM stayed away
from the mixture of chess boards, TV cameras, and press releases? I'm
troubled by all kinds of things around all of IBM's Deeps of various
hue, but, on balance, I wouldn't stop IBM's chess shenanigans even if I
had the power to.

If Microsoft wants to trade an investment in science for a little
respect, I'll take it. My Folding@Home Windows client doesn' erase my
resentment of Microsoft's tactics and net effect on computation, but it
makes it a little easier for me to live with it.

The work that _could_ be done is mindbending, and some of it has the
potential to have a directly positive influence on human welfare. I'd
love to think that Microsoft would put its shoulder behind putting more
idle PC's to work and giving more visibility to what's possible.

RM
 
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips John Savard said:
Intel could have *so easily* just blown the competition away.

Make an improved P4 that also has support for the IA-64 architecture.
And, yes, there are extra IA-32 instructions that let the chip access
all the features too, and the chip runs as fast as a pure IA-32
chip... but it performs even better with Itanium code (although maybe
not as well as a true Itanium).

A novel idea, but I suspect unworkable. The OS would need
to be IA64, and the x86 machine state and registers would
have to be mappable for task switch. AMD's x86-64 obviously is.

Internally, I somehow doubt IA64 and x86 are very compatible,
even on the hidden actual uops. Performance of x86 or IA64
would suffer.

-- Robert
 
Only in Macs...

You've obviously not shopped for PCs recently. There are kits to
put *windows* (how did M$ miss this?) in the sides of cases to
see pretty blue lights on the (also optional) lights inside. If
you think Apple has a corner on the nutzo's you're just not with
it!
 
A novel idea, but I suspect unworkable. The OS would need
to be IA64, and the x86 machine state and registers would
have to be mappable for task switch. AMD's x86-64 obviously is.

If you'll remember, the original promise from INTC was that they
would have both x86 and IA64 in the first generation, ostensibly
to bridge the gap. Itanic-I was a known dog before it taped-out,
so that promise was quickly dropped in favor of "no one needs
64bits".
Internally, I somehow doubt IA64 and x86 are very compatible,
even on the hidden actual uops. Performance of x86 or IA64
would suffer.

This is rather obvious, based on history alone.
 
You've obviously not shopped for PCs recently. There are kits to
put *windows* (how did M$ miss this?) in the sides of cases to
see pretty blue lights on the (also optional) lights inside. If
you think Apple has a corner on the nutzo's you're just not with
it!

Hey, I'm buying one of these Las Vegas cases! I've done some
customized cases in the past, but the labor is pretty intensive, and I
just don't have the time. This is for my 12 year old son, and he
needs a new case and PS for his P4 upgrade anyway, so it only makes
sense to get a flashy, trendy one.

It's got the whole schmier - front lights, fan lights, case window
(may need a decent PS)... You can even buy lanparty motherboards with
colorful glowing plastic components, but I'm not willing to risk the
tradeoff of form over function on a MB.
http://www.motherboards.org/articlesd/motherboard-reviews/1287_2.html

Sure, it's a bit silly, but he thinks it's cool, his friends think
it's cool, and it works just like a normal case, so why not? His
priorities are different than mine.


Neil Maxwell - I don't speak for my employer
 
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips KR Williams said:
You've obviously not shopped for PCs recently. There are kits to
put *windows* (how did M$ miss this?) in the sides of cases to
see pretty blue lights on the (also optional) lights inside. If
you think Apple has a corner on the nutzo's you're just not with
it!
And don't forget the glowing fans and cables! Reminds me of the
tricked out cars & trucks with light cables.

Jerry
 
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