Installing Ubuntu on a REALLY old computer

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

Okay, if mounting a non-native filesystem without some command-line
effort is what you'd consider as not having arrived yet, then so be it.

Yep, knoppix does that much better. So ubuntu hasnt arrived yet.

This is boring me.

Your problem.

My point is that we're already at a point in usability here
where you will not have go back to XP for anything.

You're just plain wrong on that. There is plenty
that ubuntu cant do that XP can do very easily.

That's what I meant by having arrived.

Then you are just plain wrong.

A lot of the most popular types of applications (if not
the applications themselves) are now available in Linux.

And there are plenty that arent, too.

And hardware support is much more limited too. Try doing a 4
channel digital PVR with ubuntu and you will find that your choices
are severely limited on what hardware you can use for that.

And while very basic ops like getting the photos out of a
digital camera are handled very intuitively, you cant do
the more fancy stuff with the better digital cameras.

And I'm NOT talking about manipulation
of the images with stuff like GIMP either.

So far, I've seen IM, email, web browser, digital camera i/o and
editing, video (including Microsoft-proprietary formats) playback

Cant handle dvr-ms format.

and editing, printing, all available in Linux.

Not necessarily with the best of the apps available tho.

With this little list, I've got an operating system that is fully functional
for at least my brother for everything that he does with his computer,

Irrelevant to whether its actually ARRIVED yet. It hasnt.

and I suspect that he's probably pretty
representative of a large portion of PC users.

I doubt it on that question of being able to use XP while trying ubuntu alone.

This is a large leap in functionality for Linux from where it was
previously where only somebody like me could get it working,
and I'm on the geek end of computer users, a Unix system
admin -- hardly representative of average PC users.

Sure, but the average XP user wont be able to use ubuntu
to access what they already have on their NTFS and FAT32
partitions, and that is something that needs to be fixed before
it has actually arrived. Its a big ask for that level of user to
be able to copy whatever they need to keep from those to
the new file systems, even if they have decided that they
dont need to use XP anymore.

Most people assume that you're going to need to back
some stuff off to CD/DVD when doing the conversion.

Like hell that level of user does. The absolute vast bulk
of those want to be able to continue to access whatever
they have in the existing partitions on their system.

Its not as if its actually hard to do, knoppix manages that fine.

Especially since most people don't have more than one
hard disk in their system, so it's usually a case of completely
converting over their sole hard drive to Linux, not
converting one drive to Linux and leaving others alone.

Then the conversion should be automated as part of the install.

The partition resizers aren't going to work if
you've filled up your whole drive to near capacity,

Most dont do that now with modern large hard drives.

which is easy to do when you're downloading movies and mp3's.

If you've got 2-300G of stuff filling the drive, going the CD/DVD
route aint ever gunna fly, you need a decent bulletproof file system
converter or allow the user to continue to use the existing format.

If they need to use Windows filesystems, then they can go to the
slightly extra step of the command-line. The reverse option isn't even
available to them from XP's command-line, let alone through a GUI.

Irrelevant to whether ubuntu has actually ARRIVED. It clearly hasnt yet.

If you'll recall I've already said that CD-based booting is not working
on this system. Not a Linux boot CD, not even a Windows boot CD.
The only thing that boots is the Windows 95 on the hard disk.

THAT BOOT MANAGER ALLOWS YOU TO BOOT ANY CD
ON THAT SYSTEM WHICH CANT BOOT THE CD BY ITSELF.

So how do you expect the boot manager is going
to load itself into memory, devine intervention?

It loads a special purpose bootstrap into the first physical
track on the hard drive and that is what boots the CD.

No, it doesn't, all it says is "put a CD in the drive and boot from
it", and that's extent of all of the detail it's got, but quite
obviously that's not working. But you're welcome to look for yourself.
HP Pavillion 5040.

As I thought
http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/...dlc=en&product=60440&lang=en&docname=bph07110
tells you how to setup the boot options in the bios.

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/...dlc=en&product=60440&lang=en&docname=bph07146
tells you how to get into the bios and check the setup for the CD etc.

 

[YKhan]

I was trying out 5.1 so it came with 1.0.5 which I then attempted to
upgrade to 1.5.04.

Yeah, I found the same thing, Ubuntu 5.10 only seemed to make upto
Ffox/Tbird 1.0.5 available to you. Beyond that the latest versions of
Ffox/Tbird were only made available on Ubuntu 6.0 Dapper Drake. I'm not
sure why, it may simply have been a decision not to bother to upgrade
Ubuntu 5.10 beyond a certain level. I'm sure you can probably find the
source code for Ffox/Tbird, and make your own Ubuntu 5.10 packages from
it. Otherwise, just upgrade to Ubuntu 6.0.

Never bothered to try that, not even for Windows. I simply use a card
reader. It's just SO much more convenient and hassle free without
having to worry about any potential issues from the different cameras
each of us have.

Well, card readers seem to work pretty well too. It's just an USB
device, so so far I've not found any USB device that's not working in
at least its most generic level. Keyboards, mice, USB hubs, etc.

I've even gotten his old Lexmark Z52 printer working right out of the
box. This was supposed to be one of those idiotic generations of
Winprinters, where the driver was only made available for Windows,
because a lot of the printer's functionality resided within that
driver. This is of course a totally unexpectedly pleasant surprise. I
had previously heard that with these Winprinters that I would have to
find a copy of the original Windows device driver and install it under
Linux and run it through a special Linux-Windows device driver
translator program; the fact that I had to do nothing of the sort was
pretty slick. I don't know if that's actually what's still happening in
the background, but the fact that I don't have to bother to figure it
out is absolutely sweet.

So far, the only inconvenience I've seen is what Rod Speed has been
talking about, regarding the mounting of the Windows filesystems. And
it's not that the GUI utility doesn't have a feature to allow NTFS
filesystems to be mounted. The feature exists in the GUI, but it just
doesn't seem to work properly -- so it's not that the developers forgot
to add the feature, they just haven't gotten it working right. So it's
an erratum in a feature, rather than a lack of a feature. The
workaround solution is simple enough, I just run the mount command from
a terminal window.

Yousuf Khan

 

[Unruh]

Okay, if mounting a non-native filesystem without some command-line
effort is what you'd consider as not having arrived yet, then so be it.
This is boring me.

??? Reading ntfs is all you have mentioned. Why anyone wants to I do not
know. Windows does a terrible job even of reading ext2.

My point is that we're already at a point in usability here where you
will not have go back to XP for anything. That's what I meant by having
arrived. A lot of the most popular types of applications (if not the
applications themselves) are now available in Linux.

So far, I've seen IM, email, web browser, digital camera i/o and
editing, video (including Microsoft-proprietary formats) playback and
editing, printing, all available in Linux. With this little list, I've
got an operating system that is fully functional for at least my
brother for everything that he does with his computer, and I suspect
that he's probably pretty representative of a large portion of PC
users. This is a large leap in functionality for Linux from where it
was previously where only somebody like me could get it working, and
I'm on the geek end of computer users, a Unix system admin -- hardly
representative of average PC users.
Why?


Most people assume that you're going to need to back some stuff off to
CD/DVD when doing the conversion. Especially since most people don't
have more than one hard disk in their system, so it's usually a case of
completely converting over their sole hard drive to Linux, not
converting one drive to Linux and leaving others alone. The partition
resizers aren't going to work if you've filled up your whole drive to
near capacity, which is easy to do when you're downloading movies and
mp3's.

If they need to use Windows filesystems, then they can go to the
slightly extra step of the command-line. The reverse option isn't even
available to them from XP's command-line, let alone through a GUI.

If you'll recall I've already said that CD-based booting is not working
on this system. Not a Linux boot CD, not even a Windows boot CD. The
only thing that boots is the Windows 95 on the hard disk. So how do you
expect the boot manager is going to load itself into memory, devine
intervention?

Does the machine have a floppy drive? You can boot from floppy in order to
install Linux.

 

[Ed H.]

Fraid it does with the effortlessness and intuitiveness that was being discussed.

No one was discussing that until you interjected it into the discussion.

Knoppix does it much more intuitively.

Then, by all means, if you like Knoppix better, use it.

Of course, that would mean you'd have to actually start using Linux.

The OP is irrelevant.

You have got to be joking. Or trolling.

Irrelevant to whether its time has come for those who dont use ubuntu exclusively.

I have no problems using Ubuntu, or any Linux distro for that matter,
either stand alone or dual boot.

Not with FAT32 and NTFS partitions it doesnt.

Who cares how well XP works with FAT32 or NTFS? I know for a certainty
that XP can't see my Linux partition. Apparently Windows hasn't arrived.

Now run along and troll somewhere else.

Ed

 

[JohnH]

Rod Speed wrote

No one was discussing that until
you interjected it into the discussion.

No was discussing anything when I made the original comment.

Then, by all means, if you like Knoppix better, use it.

I was commenting on whether ubuntu has ARRIVED.

You get to like that or lump it

Of course, that would mean you'd have to actually start using Linux.

Been using it for a long time thanks.

Since before the PC even showed up.

You have got to be joking. Or trolling.

Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

I have no problems using Ubuntu, or any Linux distro
for that matter, either stand alone or dual boot.

Irrelevant to what was being discussed, WHETHER UBUNTU HAS ARRIVED.

Who cares how well XP works with FAT32 or NTFS?

Anyone considering WHETHER UBUNTU HAS ARRIVED.

I know for a certainty that XP can't see my Linux partition.
Apparently Windows hasn't arrived.

Wrong again when its by far the dominant desktop OS.

Now run along and troll somewhere else.

Go and **** yourself. I aint going nowhere bigot boy.

 

[Rod Speed]

??? Reading ntfs is all you have mentioned.
Wrong.

Why anyone wants to I do not know.

Your problem.

Windows does a terrible job even of reading ext2.

Irrelevant to what was being discussed,
WHETHER UBUNTO HAS ARRIVED.

It goes out of its way to be easy for a Win user to try,
and needs to do that better before it has ARRIVED.

Why?

Have you actually tried backing up 300G hard drives to DVD ?

Does the machine have a floppy drive? You
can boot from floppy in order to install Linux.

Makes more sense to fix the CD boot.

 

[Rod Speed]

Yeah, I found the same thing, Ubuntu 5.10 only seemed to make upto
Ffox/Tbird 1.0.5 available to you. Beyond that the latest versions of
Ffox/Tbird were only made available on Ubuntu 6.0 Dapper Drake. I'm
not sure why, it may simply have been a decision not to bother to
upgrade Ubuntu 5.10 beyond a certain level. I'm sure you can probably
find the source code for Ffox/Tbird, and make your own Ubuntu 5.10
packages from it. Otherwise, just upgrade to Ubuntu 6.0.


Well, card readers seem to work pretty well too. It's just an USB
device, so so far I've not found any USB device that's not working in
at least its most generic level. Keyboards, mice, USB hubs, etc.

I've even gotten his old Lexmark Z52 printer working right out of the
box. This was supposed to be one of those idiotic generations of
Winprinters, where the driver was only made available for Windows,
because a lot of the printer's functionality resided within that
driver. This is of course a totally unexpectedly pleasant surprise. I
had previously heard that with these Winprinters that I would have to
find a copy of the original Windows device driver and install it under
Linux and run it through a special Linux-Windows device driver
translator program; the fact that I had to do nothing of the sort was
pretty slick. I don't know if that's actually what's still happening
in the background, but the fact that I don't have to bother to figure
it out is absolutely sweet.

So far, the only inconvenience I've seen is what Rod Speed has been
talking about, regarding the mounting of the Windows filesystems. And
it's not that the GUI utility doesn't have a feature to allow NTFS
filesystems to be mounted. The feature exists in the GUI, but it just
doesn't seem to work properly -- so it's not that the developers
forgot to add the feature, they just haven't gotten it working right.
So it's an erratum in a feature, rather than a lack of a feature. The
workaround solution is simple enough, I just run the mount command
from a terminal window.

It doesnt appear to be able to handle writes to NTFS file systems very well tho.

Plenty wont have anything else now.

 

[Dan N]

Nope, now try accessing NTFS formatted partitions on that.

If Ubuntu Linux hasn't 'arrived' because it doesn't access ntfs, then by
your logic XP hasn't 'arrived' because it can't access ext3.

Dan

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

If Ubuntu Linux hasn't 'arrived' because it doesn't access ntfs, then
by your logic XP hasn't 'arrived' because it can't access ext3.

Mindlessly silly when XP is completely dominates the personal desktop
and ubuntu has gone out of its way to be useable by Win users.

 

[Ed H.]

If Ubuntu Linux hasn't 'arrived' because it doesn't access ntfs, then by
your logic XP hasn't 'arrived' because it can't access ext3.

XP can't even handle ext2.

M$'s attitude WRT Linux is that any difficulty Windoze has with Linux file
systems is entirely Linux's problem.

Ed

 

[Dan N]

Mindlessly silly when XP is completely dominates the personal desktop and
ubuntu has gone out of its way to be useable by Win users.

There are many important things that Linux needs to do in order to have
'arrived', and it's come a long way towards achieving those goals.
Compatibility with a foreign operating system's files on the same hard
disk is way, way done on the bottom of the list, if it's even on the list
at all.

Dual booting is something that is often done when new users evaluate
linux, but it's not a requirement. I suggest that you install linux on
it's own pc, without windows. You can then quite easily share windows
files over the network.

Dan

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

If Ubuntu Linux hasn't 'arrived' because it doesn't access ntfs, then
by your logic XP hasn't 'arrived' because it can't access ext3.

There are many important things that Linux
needs to do in order to have 'arrived',

Yes, and ubuntu has covered most of them quite well.

Its currently dropped the ball on completely transparent
support for FAT32 and NTFS partitions.

and it's come a long way towards achieving those goals.

Yep, particularly with a decent user interface
that is very familiar to those coming from Win.

True in spades of the entire live CD approach
too, not just seen with ubuntu now.

Compatibility with a foreign operating system's files on the
same hard disk is way, way done on the bottom of the list,

Only for the fools that dont have a clue about what it will
take for linux to arrive for the personal desktop user.

if it's even on the list at all.

Corse it is with ubuntu particularly. Its been deliberately
designed to be easy to try to see if it suits you and full
NTFS and FAT32 support is absolutely essential for that.

Its not as if its actually difficult to do either, knoppix does that
fine, tho its support for write access to NTFS partitions is pathetic.

Thats essential when so many XP systems have nothing but NTFS.

Dual booting is something that is often done when
new users evaluate linux, but it's not a requirement.

Its clearly a market that ubuntu is aimed at.

I suggest that you install linux on it's own pc, without windows.
You can then quite easily share windows files over the network.

Yes, and it does that rather better than knoppix does too.

BUT thats useless for many who need a decent dual
boot at least, because linux will never be able to be
all things to everyone with personal desktop systems.

And even when a particular user has decided that linux has
arrived and has decided that they wont be wanting to use
XP again, it still hasnt arrived until its got a decent bulletproof
system for converting the file system if it doesnt have completely
bulletproof NTFS support. Hardly any of the level of user that
ubuntu is aimed at will be able to or even want to do that
file system conversion manually via DVDs.

Those with a clue will certainly be able to image their system
to a USB/firewire/eSATA external drive that they normally use
for backup, before invoking the file system conversion tho.

 

[The little lost angel]

I'm sure you can probably find the
source code for Ffox/Tbird, and make your own Ubuntu 5.10 packages from
it. Otherwise, just upgrade to Ubuntu 6.0.

I'll be doing that once I get my current project out of the way.

So far, the only inconvenience I've seen is what Rod Speed has been
talking about, regarding the mounting of the Windows filesystems.

they just haven't gotten it working right. So it's
an erratum in a feature, rather than a lack of a feature. The
workaround solution is simple enough, I just run the mount command from
a terminal window.

Fortunately for me, I don't usually have to bother with NTFS. The only
reason I have a drive with NTFS is simply to deal with the occasional

4GB file like for making DVD backup images.

If I migrate entirely to Linux of course that 4GB limit wouldn't be an
issue.

 

[Scott Alfter]

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Nope, now try accessing NTFS formatted partitions on that.

mount -rt ntfs /dev/hda1 /mnt/winxp

Or even just FAT32 partitions.

mount -t vfat /dev/hda1 /mnt/winxp

(Change "/dev/hda1" and "/mnt/winxp" as needed.)

Those are even assuming that there's still an NTFS or FAT partition. It's
entirely possible that the drive was nuked and repartitioned with only
native-Linux partitions. Even a feeble-minded troll like you should be able
to figure that out.

_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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[Scott Alfter]

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I was trying out 5.1 so it came with 1.0.5 which I then attempted to
upgrade to 1.5.04.


Never bothered to try that, not even for Windows. I simply use a card
reader. It's just SO much more convenient and hassle free without
having to worry about any potential issues from the different cameras
each of us have.

Card readers tend to be faster, too, which is an additional bonus.

_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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[Rod Speed]

mount -rt ntfs /dev/hda1 /mnt/winxp

Thats the command line he claimed wasnt needed.

mount -t vfat /dev/hda1 /mnt/winxp

Thats the command line he claimed wasnt needed.

(Change "/dev/hda1" and "/mnt/winxp" as needed.)

Those are even assuming that there's still an NTFS or FAT
partition. It's entirely possible that the drive was nuked and
repartitioned with only native-Linux partitions.

Irrelevant to his claim that its ARRIVED. It clearly hasnt if it cant
handle that particular situation without the the use of the command line.

Not as if its difficult, even knoppix manages it fine.

<reams of your puerile shit any 2 year old could leave for dead flushed where it belongs>

 

[s. keeling]

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.os.linux.]

Irrelevant to his claim that its ARRIVED. It clearly hasnt if it cant
handle that particular situation without the the use of the command line.

Ah. Now your true colors come out. Any OS that demands anything be
done from a command line is clearly *sooooo last century*! What a
fool. The command line is a *feature*! GUIs are useful for doing
simple things quickly. They're useless if the GUI doesn't do it the
way you want it done.

You're the sort of twit who wants an icon to wrap the "pon" command,
because clicking an icon is *so much better* than typing three
letters at a command line.

 

[Yousuf Khan]

I'll be doing that once I get my current project out of the way.

This was actually the first sign that there's something special about
Ubuntu, when my brother upgraded his computer from 5.10 to 6.06 himself
without my assistance.

Fortunately for me, I don't usually have to bother with NTFS. The only
reason I have a drive with NTFS is simply to deal with the occasional

If I migrate entirely to Linux of course that 4GB limit wouldn't be an
issue.

Yeah, there won't be an NTFS filesystem left on this system within a few
days after everything has been migrated over.

Yousuf Khan

 

[Yousuf Khan]

IMHO - you should not even try to install Ubuntu on a computer that old.
If it succeeded, you would not be happy with the performance. Much better
to try Elive, Vector, Damn Small, or something of that ilk.

The Elive looks pretty interesting judging by the screenshots. The other
bunch look too stripped down to do what I'm looking for (namely a
Windows 9x replacement).

Yousuf Khan

 

[Dan N]

Those are even assuming that there's still an NTFS or FAT partition. It's
entirely possible that the drive was nuked and repartitioned with only
native-Linux partitions.

You're right. Reading NTFS or FAT partitions is hardly the killer app
that's going to springboard Linux into the limelight.

Dan