Ink consumption, some figures

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drc023 said:
Ian, I'm a fan of your site and am glad to see you participate on this
newsgroup.But before you get the undeserved reputation of being a
Measekite clone, please be aware that this newsgroup has been nearly
destroyed by Measekites hysterical ranting and falsehoods about all third
party inks. He makes no differentiation between cheap imported Chinese
cartridges with ink of unknown origin and refilling with quality third
party bulk ink from respected manufacturers such as Formulabs and
Image-Specialists. Look at their web sites and I'm sure you'll agree that
these companies are not mom and pop food coloring operators. You talk
about using several third party cartridges, but you don't mention if you
have attempted refilling in lieu of using aftermarket cartridges. That
makes a huge difference in results - as does the type of cartridge. There
are many inferior products on the market and ink cartridges are only one
of millions. Refilling with quality bulk ink from a supplier such as
Formulabs or Image-Specialists solves the problem of using ink of unknown
lineage. I'm aware that you are UK based and these inks may not be as
readily available over there as in the US, but I urge you to investigate
these brands before making blanket statements about third party vs. OEM
labeled inks. Please take a look at the following thread which I started
on the Nifty-Stuff forum
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=3914#p3914 It discusses
who makes the bulk ink sold in the US for Canon printers. For a
professional photographer selling prints the situation is far different
from those of us with consumer grade printers for personal use. In
addition, as a customer of professional photographers I don't want the
prints I purchase to be printed on ANY inkjet printer. Proofs are OK, but
not the final portrait. If that is the case, they may as well give me a CD
and let me print my own copies. I also don't want the prints they sell me
to be from an inferior lab using poor chemicals and papers. OTOH, the
pictures I take using my Olympus C-765 (wish I had an Evolt) are not
intended to be professional quality but rather as items for immediate or
short term usage. If they fade down the road (which none of mine have
going back to the late 1990's) and I need reprints, I can always reprint
from a backup copy on DVD.
Click to expand...

An additional note - Wilhelm's evaluation was of prefilled cartridges and
brands that none of the participants on this NG or the Nifty-Stuff Forum are
using and reporting on. I would like to see Wilhelm, or someone of his
stature, evaluate the MIS, Hobbicolor, and Formulabs Canon BCI-6 inks and
compare them to Canon OEM inks. A real comparative study of color gamut and
similarity to the OEM inks would also be of interest. I've used MIS inks
in Canon printers for over a year with fairly heavy usage at times. NO
clogging or other ill effects. Excellent color rendition and balance,
Extemely similar to OEM ink prints in side-by-side comparison. Stored and
framed displayed prints look great after 14 months. Will they hold up as
long as Canon OEM prints? I don't know. Wilhelm rated Canon print
longevity as the poorest of the popular brand printers. For my needs (as
Ron stated) Archival quality is not an issue as long as stored or framed
prints please me and my family and hold up for a reasonably long time.

One of the benefits of participating in this NG and others such as the
Nifty-Stuff Forum is getting reports of good AND poor products from
experienced users so that we avoid the problems you had with aftermarket ink
products. To be most helpful to the participants here I would appreciate
your telling us the brand and model printer and brand of aftermarket inks
with which you experienced poor rersults, and you could further help us by
describing what you saw as poor results. (i.e. poor color response, shift
toward green or magenta, banding, poorly feeding cartridge, leaking, clogged
print head, etc.)
 
An additional note - Wilhelm's evaluation was of prefilled cartridges and
brands that none of the participants on this NG or the Nifty-Stuff Forum are
using and reporting on. I would like to see Wilhelm, or someone of his
stature, evaluate the MIS, Hobbicolor, and Formulabs Canon BCI-6 inks and
compare them to Canon OEM inks. A real comparative study of color gamut and
similarity to the OEM inks would also be of interest. I've used MIS inks
in Canon printers for over a year with fairly heavy usage at times. NO
clogging or other ill effects. Excellent color rendition and balance,
Extemely similar to OEM ink prints in side-by-side comparison. Stored and
framed displayed prints look great after 14 months. Will they hold up as
long as Canon OEM prints? I don't know. Wilhelm rated Canon print
longevity as the poorest of the popular brand printers. For my needs (as
Ron stated) Archival quality is not an issue as long as stored or framed
prints please me and my family and hold up for a reasonably long time.

One of the benefits of participating in this NG and others such as the
Nifty-Stuff Forum is getting reports of good AND poor products from
experienced users so that we avoid the problems you had with aftermarket ink
products. To be most helpful to the participants here I would appreciate
your telling us the brand and model printer and brand of aftermarket inks
with which you experienced poor rersults, and you could further help us by
describing what you saw as poor results. (i.e. poor color response, shift
toward green or magenta, banding, poorly feeding cartridge, leaking, clogged
print head, etc.)
Click to expand...

.... and just for me to add... One thing I picked up from MIS's
Associates own forums was that their own aftermarket cartridges use a
different ink from their bulk ink used in refills and CIS systems.

That caused some confusion at one point and in all honesty I think it
was a little cheeky of them to go that route without making it clear
as the aftermarket carts are not nearly as good as the bulk inks.

Just to repeat what Ron said though... The troll has pretty much set
the hair trigger on blanket "refill, aftermarket = BAD!" statements so
that's why there was a rather vigorous response.

Cheers
 
My first time buying third party inks for my Epson Stylus Photo 960
from ink4art kind very much supports what Ian is saying. The prints are
horrendous, and the ink has an ammonia-like smell. It has clogged the
heads, required tons of cleaning, and with my next purchase of Epson
inks it will probably require tons of cleaning to flush out the crap
ink4art inks. There needs to be some measure of reliability and
independent testing not to mention that very often these inks require
custom profiles....too much effort. I agree with Ian as there are way
too many vendors with junk. Thanks Ian for the informative post.
 
My first time buying third party inks for my Epson Stylus Photo 960
from ink4art kind very much supports what Ian is saying. The prints are
horrendous, and the ink has an ammonia-like smell. It has clogged the
heads, required tons of cleaning, and with my next purchase of Epson
inks it will probably require tons of cleaning to flush out the crap
ink4art inks. There needs to be some measure of reliability and
independent testing not to mention that very often these inks require
custom profiles....too much effort. I agree with Ian as there are way
too many vendors with junk. Thanks Ian for the informative post.
Click to expand...

Yes, but that's based on one bad experience..

Did you actually search around for recommendations first or just pick
and pray?

I agree completely that it would be wonderful to get independent
testing of inks and then diseminate that information... and in fact
there are places like nifty-stuff where inks are being tested and
recommendations can be had.

However, this is a circular arguement in so much as, if you never
bother looking in the first place, how are you going to know which
ones to go for or to avoid..


I'd seriously cast around and see what's available in terms of reviews
and forums on the subject though as there are a few good resources to
be had.
 
My first time buying third party inks for my Epson Stylus Photo 960
from ink4art kind very much supports what Ian is saying. The prints are
horrendous, and the ink has an ammonia-like smell. It has clogged the
heads, required tons of cleaning, and with my next purchase of Epson
inks it will probably require tons of cleaning to flush out the crap
ink4art inks. There needs to be some measure of reliability and
independent testing not to mention that very often these inks require
custom profiles....too much effort. I agree with Ian as there are way
too many vendors with junk. Thanks Ian for the informative post.
Click to expand...
Whats wrong with you people? This ng is for sharing information about
what works and what doesn't work. If you've had a good or bad after
market ink experience, please state the brand/label or type of ink you
used so we can all learn from your experience, ok?
Thank you.
Now just do it! :-)
Frank
 
My first time buying third party inks for my Epson Stylus Photo 960
from ink4art kind very much supports what Ian is saying. The prints are
horrendous, and the ink has an ammonia-like smell. It has clogged the
heads, required tons of cleaning, and with my next purchase of Epson
inks it will probably require tons of cleaning to flush out the crap
ink4art inks. There needs to be some measure of reliability and
independent testing not to mention that very often these inks require
custom profiles....too much effort. I agree with Ian as there are way
too many vendors with junk. Thanks Ian for the informative post.
Click to expand...
As I have mentioned in previous posts, I had poor color response from MIS
bulk inks in my two year old Epson Stylus Color 900. The blues had shifted
toward green together with other color shifts and I wasn't able to adjust it
out properly with the software. MIS tech support made every effort to help
me. They emailed different profiles and spoke with me several times on the
phone. They were using Epson Stylus Color 980's (I think that was the
number) in their office and did not have the same problem as I had. When I
replaced the refilled carts with OEM carts the colors were excellent. Now
that I have a year and a half of experience with refilling (Canon bci-6 and
bci-3 carts with MIS inks) I think it may have been a problem associated
with the difficulty of refilling Epson carts as opposed to the simplicity of
refilling the Canon carts. One of the colors may not have been feeding
properly. The Epson carts for that printer were entirely filled with sponge
and filling instructions required pulling a vacuum with a large syringe to
get the foamy mixture of ink and air out of the sponge material and then
using a bottom filling adaptor on a syringe to refill it. After reading
Neil Slade's info on printers and inks I followed his advice and bought a
Canon i960. Since he had excellent experience with MIS inks for that
printer I contacted MIS and they sent me a complimentary set of carts and
inks for the i960 to compensate me for the problems I had with their inks in
my Epson printer. They couldn't have been more responsive to my printer
needs. I've had excellent results with their Canon inks and have purchased
their inks several times in the last year plus. I don't know what other
Epson users' experiences have been with refilling. Perhaps, with more
experience, I would have been successful with MIS inks and refilling with
the Epson printer.
 
Martin said:
Yes, but that's based on one bad experience..

Did you actually search around for recommendations first or just pick
and pray?

I agree completely that it would be wonderful to get independent
testing of inks and then diseminate that information... and in fact
there are places like nifty-stuff where inks are being tested and
recommendations can be had.
Click to expand...
THAT IS AN AFTERMARKET CULT. YOU CANNOT BELIEVE THE INFO THAT COMES OUT
OF THERE. THEY ARE ABOUT AS INDEPENDENT AS THE AYATOLLA
However, this is a circular arguement in so much as, if you never
bother looking in the first place, how are you going to know which
ones to go for or to avoid..
Click to expand...
IMPOSSIBLE. THEY WILL NOT DISCLOSE WHAT THEY ARE SELLING
 
THEY ONLY EVALUATE BRANDS NOT VENDOR LABELS THAT CAN CHANGE WEEKLY OR
WITH THE NEXT SHIPMENT
A FEW HEAQVY USERS HAVE BEEN LUCKY. THIS NG IS FILLED WITH USERS WHO
HAVE CLOGS
MAYBE CLOSE BUT NO CIGAR
OF COURSE NOT
WHO HAVE NOT A CLUE AS TO WHAT THEY ARE USING
HE DOES NOT KNOW. THERE ARE NO BRANDS
PROBABLY ALL OF THE ABOVE
 
I have used compatible inks for almost two years with no problems.
Click to expand...

MOST HAVE HAD PROBLEMS. MOST USERS USE OEM PRODUCTS
I have saved enough money to buy several printers.
Click to expand...

YOU ARE A HEAVY USER.
There are plenty of reputable ink suppliers
Click to expand...

NO WAY
if one chooses to do a little research on the web to find them. I
think most people that have problems are using the all-in-one inks
kits instead of the model specific inks. If there are so many bad ink
suppliers then give us a list of them so we can avoid them. I bet you
can't name many or maybe none at all.
Click to expand...

JUST DO A GOOGLE SEARCH
 
Almost every quarter, the Japanese computer magazines publish their
latest round of printer tests along with the print speeds, cost per
page, etc.

Typically, HPs cost more, Canons cost less - cartridge cost differences
typically result in the difference, along with HPs widespread use of
all-in-one cartridges (so if you print a blue sky photo, the tank runs
out of blue, and you have to toss it even though the other colors are full).

Typically (not so with the latest HP 3xxx super-fast model), Canon's
print far faster than the other brands, in general.

specific model differences to exist and you should do a full analysis of
ink & cost before buying if you're going through a lot of ink.

---

alternatives include cheap <$50 laser printers on sale (which print
thousands of pages per cartridge) and ink bottle feed systems such as
those sold by www.inkjetmall.com

---
 
I repeat - sure there can be good inks out there, but how will know, with
confidence that what you are buying is any good?
It's not like buying gasoline for your car. The specifications for gasoline
are strictly defined and the product is carefully monitored during the
manufacturing process.
Click to expand...

Experence... that's it. Don't get me wrong I'm not knocking your
attitude... you have many reasonable points... esp the point on
gasoline. Not that I wholely agree... there are a ton of options that
are a *very good* match for oem in terms of viscosity, and rate of
expantion if nessicary. I'm sure there are some bad formulas on the
market.. and in fact I would agree knowing nothing at all about the
options you'd be foolish not to consider OEM as your first option. I
however don't feel creating ink is as complex as you make it out to be
for companies who's business it is to make ink.
The technical requirements for inks are much more complex; viscosity, the
ability to survive transient super-heated temperatures, the ability to
resist mixing with different coloured inks, the ability to resist oxidation
and light energy, colour accuracy, stability while in storage, the design of
the cartridge itself where third parties manufacture their own - did you
know that the latest Epson cartridges have a complex internal desgn that
maintains the liquid pressure inside the cartridge throughout its duty
cycle, for example?
Click to expand...

The super heated temp issue is mostly for thermals... not micropiezos
like Epson. On the cartridge I would actually agree... those OEM epson
cartridges are a decent spongless disign that is hard to duplicate.
But it's actually not "required" for proper option as one can maintain
a reasonale balance between surface tention and storage by using a
sponge or better still a bulk feed system with the inks the right
level. And epson OEMs are a royal pain to refill... and I will freely
admit I'm not able to refill them even with major suction bottom
filling.

But most importantly... I appricate a reasonable person in this group
who's not so slanted tward OEM vs non-oem to be unreasonable.
 
Perhaps then one of the you experienced third-party ink users here can
recommend a reasonable vendor for my Epson Photo 960.
 
Perhaps then one of the you experienced third-party ink users here can
recommend a reasonable vendor for my Epson Photo 960.
Click to expand...

A school I've outfitted with a CIS has an Epson Stylus Photo 950 which
we've filled with MIS Archival ink but in fairness I didn't think the
quality of the overall output was all that great compared to the C86
output we were getting.

That said, I've never done any comparisons against my Photo R300...

It's one option anyway..
 
Martin said:
A school I've outfitted with a CIS has an Epson Stylus Photo 950 which
we've filled with MIS Archival ink but in fairness I didn't think the
quality of the overall output was all that great compared to the C86
output we were getting.
Click to expand...
YOU REALLY CANNOT EXPECT THAT FROM AFTERMARKET INK
 
Perhaps then one of the you experienced third-party ink users here can
recommend a reasonable vendor for my Epson Photo 960.
Click to expand...
I RECOMMEND EPSON INK UNLESS YOU HAVE A REALLY HIGH PRINTLOAD. EPSONS
HAVE A TENDENCY TO CLOG AND WORSE WITH AFTERMARKET INK WHERE YOU DO NOT
KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GETTING.
 
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