M
Mark D. VandenBeg
Future users, yes. Present testers, no.
Chris Game said:
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G
Guest
Unlike some of you arrogant Butt heads,,these people were not Born with a
computer stuck up their ass.. Everyone had to learn,,You included.. Get a
brain yourselves perhaps, if you cant be helpful,be quiet...
computer stuck up their ass.. Everyone had to learn,,You included.. Get a
brain yourselves perhaps, if you cant be helpful,be quiet...
A
Alan Simpson
It's has nothing to do with that. It's about whether or not it's really
prudent to make something that can cause so much trouble easily accessible
to people aren't ready for the potential consequences. You wouldn't stick a
bunch of young kids into the middle of a professional hockey game to teach
them hockey. They'd get eaten alive. There are better ways to learn than
things than to download an OS beta.
I think the real geeks and nerds with computers up their asses left these
newsgroups as soon as the beta went public.
I'm just dubious as to the value of all this. Doubtful that the small upside
(if any) justifies the downside.I was responding to another post and no, I
won't be quiet. After all, it is a public newsgroup and a free country.
prudent to make something that can cause so much trouble easily accessible
to people aren't ready for the potential consequences. You wouldn't stick a
bunch of young kids into the middle of a professional hockey game to teach
them hockey. They'd get eaten alive. There are better ways to learn than
things than to download an OS beta.
I think the real geeks and nerds with computers up their asses left these
newsgroups as soon as the beta went public.
I'm just dubious as to the value of all this. Doubtful that the small upside
(if any) justifies the downside.I was responding to another post and no, I
won't be quiet. After all, it is a public newsgroup and a free country.
S
Steve U
Much to Intel's and Microsoft's disappointment, mainstream business does notAlan Simpson said:Yeah but you're not getting that kind of feedback here. All you're getting
is people trying to get old hardware/software to run, or trying to get
Vista off their system. I think the cost is too high, considering the
problems many of these users are experiencing. I think that on an OS beta
it would be wise to wait until and RC1 candidate or something.
Besides, their not going to change the interface because of anything
anyone posts here. It's too late for that. All these people are suffering
for no reason. We already know a lot of old stuff doesn't work, and won't
work until there are updated drivers and versions available.
It really boils down to the difference between an OS and an app. Beta
testing apps is no big deal. An OS is a whole different story. These
peoples' sufferings aren't helping this product, or going to change this
product, one iota.
replace equipment every time a new version appears. The USA tax laws also
specify a much longer time to depreciate (computer) equipment than the
current life of a O/S.
Software writers are the driving force on many a O/S upgrade when the write
applications that ONLY work (not always a bad thing) with the latest O/S
releases .
Add to the picture, Hazardous waste laws that cost $$ to dispose of obsolete
electronics.
"Run it till it drops" becomes a good business practice :/
Bottom line: All us Beta testers that are trying Vista on older hardware
WILL give MS a picture of what it WILL run on and also a prod to develop
those drivers IF there seems to be a large group of potential upgrades for
a specific device.
Steve
C
Chad Harris
audiodragon said:Sorry, I'm not a computer genius by far, but I really wonder why some
people who don't seem to know very much about computers in general are
trying to test a BETA version of an operating system.
Some of the questions on this newsgroup are frightening. If you don't know
enough about what you're doing, leave well alone! Good luck to the others.
C
Chad Harris
I think most posters are missing the point. In addition to the inevitable
(this is not new--it's been around since at least 3.1) passing around of
Beta versions of the OS widely to promote adoption of Vista, at least these
people are coming to an appropriate place to get help.
I look at this philosophically. You can criticize MSFT for releasing these
Betas but I don't criticize them at all for that. They have release notes
that if read and heeded would prevent a lot of the predicaments. I don't
criticize them at all for making the Beta available--they waited several
interim and landmark builds and from July of 2005 to May 22 of 2006 to do
it.
I would criticize them for not doing a good enough job of releasing
substantive information in a lot of areas anywhere--MSDN, Technet, and off
beta blogs like Hive included. The product guide is a cheerleading document
if you look at most of its content. It has 2 sentences on Startup Repair
and Win RE and I'm betting Alan Simpson's Vista book will have substantially
more.
Win RE and its components, SFC that right now does not work in any Vista
Build and the Win RE PM is on record recommending not to run except as sfc
/vefify only (which doesn't do a thing to replace damaged files if the file
signature scanned shows it needs replacing) and System Restore have no
significant documentation in Vista anywhere on MSFT's sites.
The MSKBs for Vista are picking up slowly but surely--I count about 40
related to Vista right now:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/919529/en-us
Windows Vista no longer starts after you install an earlier version of the
Windows operating system in a dual-boot configuration
Much has been written about not reading release notes and Colin has been
meticulous in documenting paragraphs of warning and instruction as well as
doing a very effective job to help fix many of the problems created as have
others, but think about most of the people you know who aren't that
technicially plugged into software and hdw. If one of the next new things
is free, they're going to get it because they can.
One huge difference though, is that now many of them have a 24X7 help
resource called the internet that they can access wherever they are. The
more fortunate ones will ask if they should do something first and save
themselves time and headaches, but many will come after the problem has been
created.
But at least they have a decent place to go.
CH
(this is not new--it's been around since at least 3.1) passing around of
Beta versions of the OS widely to promote adoption of Vista, at least these
people are coming to an appropriate place to get help.
I look at this philosophically. You can criticize MSFT for releasing these
Betas but I don't criticize them at all for that. They have release notes
that if read and heeded would prevent a lot of the predicaments. I don't
criticize them at all for making the Beta available--they waited several
interim and landmark builds and from July of 2005 to May 22 of 2006 to do
it.
I would criticize them for not doing a good enough job of releasing
substantive information in a lot of areas anywhere--MSDN, Technet, and off
beta blogs like Hive included. The product guide is a cheerleading document
if you look at most of its content. It has 2 sentences on Startup Repair
and Win RE and I'm betting Alan Simpson's Vista book will have substantially
more.
Win RE and its components, SFC that right now does not work in any Vista
Build and the Win RE PM is on record recommending not to run except as sfc
/vefify only (which doesn't do a thing to replace damaged files if the file
signature scanned shows it needs replacing) and System Restore have no
significant documentation in Vista anywhere on MSFT's sites.
The MSKBs for Vista are picking up slowly but surely--I count about 40
related to Vista right now:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/919529/en-us
Windows Vista no longer starts after you install an earlier version of the
Windows operating system in a dual-boot configuration
Much has been written about not reading release notes and Colin has been
meticulous in documenting paragraphs of warning and instruction as well as
doing a very effective job to help fix many of the problems created as have
others, but think about most of the people you know who aren't that
technicially plugged into software and hdw. If one of the next new things
is free, they're going to get it because they can.
One huge difference though, is that now many of them have a 24X7 help
resource called the internet that they can access wherever they are. The
more fortunate ones will ask if they should do something first and save
themselves time and headaches, but many will come after the problem has been
created.
But at least they have a decent place to go.
CH
C
Chad Harris
Clarence Thomas is a Justice who would not be employed by most law firms in
any area that does federal litigation except perhaps as a "Rainmaker" to
bring in some right winged clients, , so obviously it is not illegal to be
ignorant.
The U.S. is facing a pandemic that has gone human to human that was placed
on page 6 in the Wall Street Journal at the bottom with a tiny column by
buying a ton of a drug Tamiflu that will only serve to increase resistance
and kill faster and has no efficacy for H5N1 mutations. Many of the
purchasers are MDs. There is no vaccine and China was not prevented from
giving 600,000 does of it to asymptomatic farmers in rural villages--one of
the most dangerous things for the planet that could have been done.
Most states have done nothing to address it, and said nothing about it, and
some states have vets as governor. None of them have hospital capacity
adequate to begin to handle it.
It certainly was not illegal to be ignorant there.
In the USA, while study after study including those paid for by taxpayers
have shown that current SUV height kills a thousand people a year,
legislation to lower the fronts of the gas guzzlers will not be viable until
2009. The country is prepared to lose 1000 people per year until then.
It certainly is not illegal but very lethal to be ignorant there.
MSFT has softie bloggers that assert their company is protecting its
employees from an Avian flu pandemic by putting up signs to wash their
hands--ignorance there is not illegal.
CH
any area that does federal litigation except perhaps as a "Rainmaker" to
bring in some right winged clients, , so obviously it is not illegal to be
ignorant.
The U.S. is facing a pandemic that has gone human to human that was placed
on page 6 in the Wall Street Journal at the bottom with a tiny column by
buying a ton of a drug Tamiflu that will only serve to increase resistance
and kill faster and has no efficacy for H5N1 mutations. Many of the
purchasers are MDs. There is no vaccine and China was not prevented from
giving 600,000 does of it to asymptomatic farmers in rural villages--one of
the most dangerous things for the planet that could have been done.
Most states have done nothing to address it, and said nothing about it, and
some states have vets as governor. None of them have hospital capacity
adequate to begin to handle it.
It certainly was not illegal to be ignorant there.
In the USA, while study after study including those paid for by taxpayers
have shown that current SUV height kills a thousand people a year,
legislation to lower the fronts of the gas guzzlers will not be viable until
2009. The country is prepared to lose 1000 people per year until then.
It certainly is not illegal but very lethal to be ignorant there.
MSFT has softie bloggers that assert their company is protecting its
employees from an Avian flu pandemic by putting up signs to wash their
hands--ignorance there is not illegal.
CH
C
Chad Harris
I don't think all of the "real gedks and nerds" with computers "up their
asses" or "out their wazzoos" have left this newsgroup. Even some Vista
book authors remain Alan.
CH
asses" or "out their wazzoos" have left this newsgroup. Even some Vista
book authors remain Alan.
CH
G
GimmeBreak
Yeah but it's not the same as it was before the beta went public. It seems
many of the geeks and nerds have fled (but not all). If I qualify as one
with a computer up my ass, I'm guess I'm one who hasn't. But I'm not having
any luck getting some of my more esoteric questions answered anymore. I
think it's because it's just gotten too crazy in here with everyone and his
brother trying to get old software and hardware to run. That's just not a
top priority right now.
And I still think it's too early to release this thing to the public. I
haven't read all the posts. But there are definitely some people in some
real jams, apparently on their one-and-only computer.
many of the geeks and nerds have fled (but not all). If I qualify as one
with a computer up my ass, I'm guess I'm one who hasn't. But I'm not having
any luck getting some of my more esoteric questions answered anymore. I
think it's because it's just gotten too crazy in here with everyone and his
brother trying to get old software and hardware to run. That's just not a
top priority right now.
And I still think it's too early to release this thing to the public. I
haven't read all the posts. But there are definitely some people in some
real jams, apparently on their one-and-only computer.
A
Alan Simpson
I certainly don't have a problem with betas in general. The problem is that
an OS beta is so different from any other betas. A beta of an app is no big
deal. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. No big loss. It (probably) doesn't
affect anything else on your system.
Obviously with an OS, it's a completely different story. Even when it does
work, it doesn't necessarily mean it works with the hardware and software
you want it to work with. And it could be months before it does. And there's
the rub. People aren't expecting that, and it's causing a lot of (what I
think are) unnecessary headaches for folks. Some headaches bigger than
others.
Anyway, the dearth of info is also an issue. You definitely won't get any
argument from me there. It's hard to find anything anywhere about many of
the things in this product.
an OS beta is so different from any other betas. A beta of an app is no big
deal. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. No big loss. It (probably) doesn't
affect anything else on your system.
Obviously with an OS, it's a completely different story. Even when it does
work, it doesn't necessarily mean it works with the hardware and software
you want it to work with. And it could be months before it does. And there's
the rub. People aren't expecting that, and it's causing a lot of (what I
think are) unnecessary headaches for folks. Some headaches bigger than
others.
Anyway, the dearth of info is also an issue. You definitely won't get any
argument from me there. It's hard to find anything anywhere about many of
the things in this product.
C
Chad Harris
Gimme--
Also ayk there are thousands of Vista forums where Beta testers and others
hang who like to answer esoteric questions--although MSFT is ensuring the
esoteric remains in Vista by refusing to provide timely information in
sufficient detail at a sophisticated level because they simply excel at
dragging ass.
CH
Please put your more essoteric questions up here and see if they get
answered. Be sure to lable them "my more essoteric questions with an
asterisk.
Also ayk there are thousands of Vista forums where Beta testers and others
hang who like to answer esoteric questions--although MSFT is ensuring the
esoteric remains in Vista by refusing to provide timely information in
sufficient detail at a sophisticated level because they simply excel at
dragging ass.
CH
Please put your more essoteric questions up here and see if they get
answered. Be sure to lable them "my more essoteric questions with an
asterisk.
C
Chad Harris
MSFT has been downright nasty when asked to provide information, belive me
Alan. Arrogance at Redmond knows no bounds. I don't know where you and
other authors of major book writers are getting it, but they have absolutely
refused to provide any and many of their presentations have slides that they
simply refuse to explain and maybe lack the ability to explain. Maybe the
developers haven't educated and spoonfed the PMS enough.
I could show you countless examples. I haven't seen a Beta tester or a
softie launch an intelligent discussion of a number of features and this
thing birthed in July. Also this isn't their first OS. They go through the
same crap with drivers lagging and quickly blaming 3rd party companies when
they have made a minimal effort to get 3rd parties on board. And yes, I
know it's considerably more complex, and has a lot more code, and now there
is the dimension of 64 bit processors and 64 bit OS's including Vista.
As far as apps that work--MSFT can't even make their own applications (One
Care, Defender) work with Vista or their own utilities (SFC, SR) and their
own hardware--Mice, keyboards.
CH
I'm so proud to live in a country where a moron who is president plans to
use his first veto against embronic stem cell funding, because right winged
anti-scientific religiosity and thousands of deaths from cancer, spinal cord
injuries, and Type 1 subset diabetes go hand in hand.
The authoritarian fear mongering personality seems to be what the people
want, and they are sure as hell getting it. It's going to bring a lot of
continual death.
Alan. Arrogance at Redmond knows no bounds. I don't know where you and
other authors of major book writers are getting it, but they have absolutely
refused to provide any and many of their presentations have slides that they
simply refuse to explain and maybe lack the ability to explain. Maybe the
developers haven't educated and spoonfed the PMS enough.
I could show you countless examples. I haven't seen a Beta tester or a
softie launch an intelligent discussion of a number of features and this
thing birthed in July. Also this isn't their first OS. They go through the
same crap with drivers lagging and quickly blaming 3rd party companies when
they have made a minimal effort to get 3rd parties on board. And yes, I
know it's considerably more complex, and has a lot more code, and now there
is the dimension of 64 bit processors and 64 bit OS's including Vista.
As far as apps that work--MSFT can't even make their own applications (One
Care, Defender) work with Vista or their own utilities (SFC, SR) and their
own hardware--Mice, keyboards.
CH
I'm so proud to live in a country where a moron who is president plans to
use his first veto against embronic stem cell funding, because right winged
anti-scientific religiosity and thousands of deaths from cancer, spinal cord
injuries, and Type 1 subset diabetes go hand in hand.
The authoritarian fear mongering personality seems to be what the people
want, and they are sure as hell getting it. It's going to bring a lot of
continual death.
C
Chad Harris
The major reason that people don't have basic computer skills is in my
experience from fielding tons of questions on chats and forums where people
won't take the correct advice after begging for it is that people are too
lazy to read period. It's a huge probem in the United States, and it breeds
ignorance. It's all the more paradoxical and ironic given the wealth of good
info on the web.
It's really not going to matter whether the OS is beta or has "RTM" slapped
on it at some point in time with the same number of bugs unfixed despite
what the softie bug blogs assert.
People are going to continue to manifest the same degree of laziness as to
reading about the OS. They don't read Help in XP; 98% don't use the MSKBs
or look for help using search engines and this isn't going to change whether
they call it XP, Vista, Blackcomb Vienna or whatever.
CH
experience from fielding tons of questions on chats and forums where people
won't take the correct advice after begging for it is that people are too
lazy to read period. It's a huge probem in the United States, and it breeds
ignorance. It's all the more paradoxical and ironic given the wealth of good
info on the web.
It's really not going to matter whether the OS is beta or has "RTM" slapped
on it at some point in time with the same number of bugs unfixed despite
what the softie bug blogs assert.
People are going to continue to manifest the same degree of laziness as to
reading about the OS. They don't read Help in XP; 98% don't use the MSKBs
or look for help using search engines and this isn't going to change whether
they call it XP, Vista, Blackcomb Vienna or whatever.
CH
M
Mark D. VandenBerg
I think a great example of this laziness is manifested in wanting the
government to do everything for them, and also pay for it. Biomedical
research, for example. If there truly was a hope for some of the projects
these people are demanding the government pay for, wouldn't it be logical
that a company would do this research, develop the patents and make a
profit?
government to do everything for them, and also pay for it. Biomedical
research, for example. If there truly was a hope for some of the projects
these people are demanding the government pay for, wouldn't it be logical
that a company would do this research, develop the patents and make a
profit?
A
Alan Simpson
Where are those Vista forums?
Hah - next to the lack of drivers, the lack of info is the most frustrating
thing on this one.
Hah - next to the lack of drivers, the lack of info is the most frustrating
thing on this one.
C
Chad Harris
It's not quite as simple as a welfare model. Companies do a lot of
research, develop patents and try to develop creative ways to block other
manufacturers after the patent expires and they make a ton of profit. They
inflate their prices and the purported R&D costs vastly. The current
government, operating on the K Street pimp-whore-john model has created a
system where they have outlawed true competitive bidding and refused to
allow drugs to be purchased in a way to achieve the most competitive
pricing.
There is private embryonic stem cell research going on; and some states have
rejected the federal Religious fundamentalist effort to squelch it.
California is one. Bill Gates was one of the prime backers of embryonic
stem cell research legislation.
CH
Can embronic stem cell research find a cure for stupid?
research, develop patents and try to develop creative ways to block other
manufacturers after the patent expires and they make a ton of profit. They
inflate their prices and the purported R&D costs vastly. The current
government, operating on the K Street pimp-whore-john model has created a
system where they have outlawed true competitive bidding and refused to
allow drugs to be purchased in a way to achieve the most competitive
pricing.
There is private embryonic stem cell research going on; and some states have
rejected the federal Religious fundamentalist effort to squelch it.
California is one. Bill Gates was one of the prime backers of embryonic
stem cell research legislation.
CH
Can embronic stem cell research find a cure for stupid?
M
Mark D. VandenBerg
It's a simple question: Why should the federal government pay for it?
A
Alan Simpson
Well you definitely have a point there. Even if the info were available,
most people would ignore it. It's easier and more fun to just assume things
are the way they want or expect them to be and go for it.
But the consequences of that with an OS beta can be nasty. Unless they have
a lot of spare time on their hands to fix things. Maybe they do, I don't
know.
most people would ignore it. It's easier and more fun to just assume things
are the way they want or expect them to be and go for it.
But the consequences of that with an OS beta can be nasty. Unless they have
a lot of spare time on their hands to fix things. Maybe they do, I don't
know.
A
Alan Simpson
Before the beta went public there were some people in here who already had
an astonishing amount of knowledge about Vista. I'm talking about back at
the earliest Beta 1 builds. That's where I was getting much of my info
initially. I think things have just gotten too crazy in here for them to
stick around. Too many questions where the tempting answer is something
along the lines of "...Vista isn't the same as XP" ;-)
an astonishing amount of knowledge about Vista. I'm talking about back at
the earliest Beta 1 builds. That's where I was getting much of my info
initially. I think things have just gotten too crazy in here for them to
stick around. Too many questions where the tempting answer is something
along the lines of "...Vista isn't the same as XP" ;-)
K
KWE
Chad Harris wrote On 7/11/2006 12:32 PM:
Veternarians are no big deal as governors. California has a real
Terminator in office and one of those frozen northern states had a
Predator-hunter. Come to think of it, we had a pre-governor's conference
in the Predator movie.
Top that for ignorant behavior. Well, at least bizarre.
some states have vets as governor.
Veternarians are no big deal as governors. California has a real
Terminator in office and one of those frozen northern states had a
Predator-hunter. Come to think of it, we had a pre-governor's conference
in the Predator movie.
Top that for ignorant behavior. Well, at least bizarre.