HP or Canon?

[andmalc]

Fenrir Enterprises wrote:
[snip]

The problem with the newest line of HPs is that they /only/ take the
tiny cartridges. None of the all-in-ones under $300 take the or 96/97
standard tanks.

Looks like you're missing something in the last sentence but you're
correct that only the Officejet 7210 (which starts at $300) and up take
the largest cartridges.

None of the standard deskjets under $150 take the
56/57 tanks, though there is one or two photosmarts around $100 that
take them. They all take either the 21/22 or the 92/93 tanks. I had
previously said that the All-In-One Fax machine that has a sheetfed
scanner instead of a flatbed still took the 56/57s, but apparently
these just took a little longer for HP to take off the shelves - there
is now a new model that only takes 21/22 as well.

True, the OJ 4315 and the PSC 1410 which cost $99 and $79 respectively.
How surprising is it that they only takes small cartridges?

Last series Deskjets : 56 black - 19 ml of ink; 57 color - 14 ml of
ink

This series: 21 black - 5 ml of ink; 22 color - 5 ml of ink

Last series of All-In-Ones: 96 black - 21 ml of ink; 97 color - 14 ml
of ink

This series: 92 black - 5 ml of ink, 93 color - 5 ml of ink

I have no idea why you mention the 92/93. These are starter carts that
come in new printers. No one would ever actually buy these though you
can. For the mid-range printers, the standard current blacks are the
94 and the 98, the later being slightly newer and are both 11 ml. The
standard colour is the 95 - 7ml.

You're trying to make the case that these carts are getting smaller but
the fact is that the models that take the largest carts are the higher
end Officejets which although they date back a year or two are still
the current models in their price range.

So the black tanks for the newest series of printers are about 1/4 of
the size of last year's models, and the color tanks are 1/3 the size.

Only even approaching true if you're comparing $79-$99 models with
$300-500 models.

 

[Fenrir Enterprises]

Fenrir Enterprises wrote:
[snip]

The problem with the newest line of HPs is that they /only/ take the
tiny cartridges. None of the all-in-ones under $300 take the or 96/97
standard tanks.

Looks like you're missing something in the last sentence but you're
correct that only the Officejet 7210 (which starts at $300) and up take
the largest cartridges.

56/57, hmm, that's not missing in my 'Outbox' copy

True, the OJ 4315 and the PSC 1410 which cost $99 and $79 respectively.
How surprising is it that they only takes small cartridges?

The 4215 took the 56/57 plus the smaller but not unreasonably so
27/28, and the 58 photo color tanks. The 4315 only takes the 21/22 and
27 (10 ml black tank), no photo carts, and no large carts, for the
exact same price. The PSC 1310, which was the last $79 model took the
56/57 cartridges, the 1410 does not.

I have no idea why you mention the 92/93. These are starter carts that
come in new printers. No one would ever actually buy these though you
can. For the mid-range printers, the standard current blacks are the
94 and the 98, the later being slightly newer and are both 11 ml. The
standard colour is the 95 - 7ml.

There is one model that takes the 92/93 carts. I believe it's a $59
Deskjet. It does not take any other cartridges than these two. I've
only seen the model in Circuit City.

You're trying to make the case that these carts are getting smaller but
the fact is that the models that take the largest carts are the higher
end Officejets which although they date back a year or two are still
the current models in their price range.

Only even approaching true if you're comparing $79-$99 models with
$300-500 models.

Last year's HP's $150 Officejet 5510 4-in-1 took the 56/57 cartridges.
The new 5610 takes the 56 black, but only the 22 color. The 1310
3-in-1 took the 56/57 but the 1410 only takes the 21/22.

My case is that the lower end printers /used/ to take the large tanks
and the new line does not. 1310, 4215, and 5510 all took 56/57. The
replacement line, 1410, 4315, and 5610, which all cost nearly the same
as their predecessors ($79/$99/$150 on /average/), do not. You need to
spend much more to get a printer that takes the larger ink cartridges
now.

Here's a comparasion between ink cartridges using Office Depot's
prices for OEM cartridges.

HP 56 Black: 450 pages. $19.99 Rounds to $0.05/page

HP 27 Black: 220 pages; $17.99 Rounds to $0.08/page

HP 21 Black: 150 pages; $14.99. Rounds to $0.10/page


HP 57 Color: 400 pages; $34.99 Rounds to $0.09/page

HP 22 Color: 138 pages; $17.99 Rounds to $0.13/page

There is actually less of a difference between the color cost than I
had expected. But cost for black and white printing has doubled in
about one year. While I personally would never buy a printer that took
cartridges this small, or use refills if I had to, I often try to help
people find the best deal on hardware. The average consumer does not
look at the ml content of the printer they're buying. They see the
1410 and say "Oh look, the black cartridge is $5 less than the printer
I have now! I think I'll buy this one!", which has the end result of
the consumer spending double the cost of ink that they used to.

---

http://www.FenrirOnline.com

Computer services, custom metal etching,
arts, crafts, and much more.

 

[Fenrir Enterprises]

Yes, this can be annoying, but canon has "always" had a big tank class
and a thimble tank class. Thimble tanks were not so bad when they
offered a big black, or tiny colors, but the big black cartridge was
abandoned in favor of the current size of black, which is a reasonable
size don't get me wrong. Now thimble tanks have been abandoned in
favor of the head on the cartridge. I'll have to check my facts on
this, but they have a pgi-41 and a pgi-51... different volumes, going
to different printers, but same ink. The cheaper AIOs take these.

Yes, Canon's head-on-the-cart deal is making the ink more expensive as
well, but you don't have to spend as much more in order to get a
printer that /does/ take bigger ink tanks. I searched for Canon page
yields, but have found massively different information on different
pages, and I don't see it on their website, so I can't compare it to
HP carts.

I'll have to double check current packaging, but it's been my experence
that HP lists the volume on the box.

My original comment was to try to find a chart of the ml content of
Brother and Lexmark cartridges, both companies which do not put their
ml conent on the box, but either have no extra wording under the
numbers, or the words 'Medium Yield' and 'High Yield'. I wouldn't buy
one myself, but when I try to help people pick a printer, I usually
run into 'Well the Canon with copier is $150 and the Lexmark with fax
and a /phone/ is only $89, so why shouldn't I buy the Lexmark instead?
My uncle's brother's cousin's nephew's roommate had one and said he
/never/ had any problems with it."

Yes, that's pretty low... I wouldn't buy that one. 10ml isn't too bad
on a current generation HP, but keep in mind that the yield you'd
expect from a old 45 is about the same as the yield you'd expect from
two 10ml #02s.

Office Depot lists the HP 45 as $29.99. 833 page yield, which comes to
about $0.04 per page. As stated in my other post, the HP 21 comes to
about $0.10 per page.

My take on the HPs that take the 02 cartridges, is that since it's a
photo printer, it's going to take smaller tanks and cost more, but
hopefully with better quality than combination 57/58 tanks. The 02
black is 16 ml though, which is not bad. They're not really designed
for document printing (the black is not pigment) so I wouldn't even
compare it. The officejets and deskjets, and even some of the lower
end photosmarts, however, do take comparable cartridges.

---

http://www.FenrirOnline.com

Computer services, custom metal etching,
arts, crafts, and much more.

 

[zakezuke]

Zakezuke - check these out. I'm using them and they are very good. You can

buy them with needles and needle caps fromt this firm. No more cleaning
syringes. around a buck apiece in packs of ten plus nominal shipping. I
bought the 2 oz. bottles as I buy 2 oz each of black, cyan, and magenta and
4 oz. of PM, PC, and yellow.
http://heinc.com/kahnetics/squeezebottles.html

Those look as cool as the IMS bottles, and cheeper too. If I need some
i'll order them up. My current supply of IMS bottles is adquate.

 

[Mapanari]

I hate to negate part of this post, but there are currently no
aftermarket carts for the ip4200. In addition, the IMS inks are touted
as being generic or universal and they are definitely not the best
quality inks to feed your printer. If you wish to refill there are a
few vendors that have recently started selling aftermarket bulk inks for
the newest pixmas. The inks available for the previous models, of which
the ip4000 is one, are slightly different from the newest ones. If you
want to refill your carts be sure you purchase inks that are
specifically compatable with the ip4200. Since I don't have one of the
newest pixmas I haven't looked for the vendors that have the inks for
your printer. I suspect that compatable carts and inks will soon be
available, but for now you would need to purchase a new set of OEM Canon
carts to have a backup set. For refilling technique, sealing of the
fill hole, etc,go to the Nifty Stuff forum. Participants on that forum
have experimented with several types of tape and have had leaking carts
if using only tape as a seal.
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/

There is not one wiff of diference between any of the inks, and I suspect,
most of the inks for all brands.

And you're right about the 4200....Somehow I had the 4000 on my brain. You
can refill those very easily and/or buy $3.00 carts for them.

All canon did is change the carts to put chips in them, install a little
sensor and change the eprom and walla! They can make millions more like HP
does!

--
b{-_-}d

I'm listening!

---Mapanari---

 

[Mapanari]

I don't know about HP comming with 1/2 filled cartridges, you could be
right they do tend to offer regular sized and full sized tanks. As far
as being cheaper than canon, I crunched the numbers a few time and it
would seem that the hp 8250 is at the very least on par with canon
ip6600D, at least within the ball park.

The new canons you can't not honestly say refilling them is as easy due
to the chips, nor do I honestly know the physical ease of refilling a
hp02 tank. I will however say electrical tape bad, though electrical
tape with a dab of epoxy good. Perhaps you had luck with electrical
tape, I however have not.

But I will agree that CD printing is a nifty power feature, one which
did make me switch away from HP. However if my power application was
faxing odds are the HP would win out.

You can refill the new chipped canon carts just as easily and the same way
as you did with the 3 and 6 bci series.

The printer will just go nuts, tell you three times it won't work, then you
ignore it 3 times and then continue printing.

You'll lose the "low ink level warning" though so you'll have to keep track
of your carts by eyesight or guesswork.

I've never had a problem running them fairly dry...when one color is
obviously starting to skip, I stop, refil it and then top off the others
and then continue...on a 4000.

The 4200 is what I've read online after doing copius research.


--
b{-_-}d

I'm listening!

---Mapanari---

 

[Mapanari]

(e-mail address removed) (Fenrir Enterprises) (e-mail address removed):

I don't care if it's called 'regular' and 'large' tanks, the 'regular'
tank is usually so tiny that it would be a lie to call it anything but
a half-size or starter cartridge. It used to be that you couldn't even
/buy/ cartridges that size, they only came with the printer (except
for those few weird HP 'photo packages' that have a half-filled '#
series' cartridge and stack of paper, with a little note in the corner
that it's 'not the same as the standard # cartridge') .

The problem with the newest line of HPs is that they /only/ take the
tiny cartridges. None of the all-in-ones under $300 take the or 96/97
standard tanks. None of the standard deskjets under $150 take the
56/57 tanks, though there is one or two photosmarts around $100 that
take them. They all take either the 21/22 or the 92/93 tanks. I had
previously said that the All-In-One Fax machine that has a sheetfed
scanner instead of a flatbed still took the 56/57s, but apparently
these just took a little longer for HP to take off the shelves - there
is now a new model that only takes 21/22 as well.

Last series Deskjets : 56 black - 19 ml of ink; 57 color - 14 ml of
ink

This series: 21 black - 5 ml of ink; 22 color - 5 ml of ink

Last series of All-In-Ones: 96 black - 21 ml of ink; 97 color - 14 ml
of ink

This series: 92 black - 5 ml of ink, 93 color - 5 ml of ink

So the black tanks for the newest series of printers are about 1/4 of
the size of last year's models, and the color tanks are 1/3 the size.
The cartridges are not significantly cheaper (about $10 less). Even
with the supposed lower ink usage, 1.66 ml per color isn't going to
last a week unless you only make one print per day. And it's not as if
the other cartridges are being phased out in favor of newer
technology, as the more expensive HP printers take the exact same
numbers as the last series. Not surprising that HP's ink division is
raking in so much cash right now.

Right now I'm looking for a chart of Lexmark and Brother cartridge ml
contents, because frankly, unless you're going to spend over $200 on a
printer, HP is far, far too expensive to run. I usually try to steer
people towards Canon printers now, but keep hearing 'Oh, but this
Brother/Lexmark is the exact same price, and it copies/faxes too!', so
I'm trying to find out whether these brands also have microscopic ink
cartridges or not. The fact that they don't put the ml content on
their packaging is a bad indicator to start with.

---

http://www.FenrirOnline.com

Computer services, custom metal etching,
arts, crafts, and much more.

I will never ever buy another HP printer due to that.

When they started scewing their customers with the smaller carts installed
on brand new printers, I said '**** you Carly, you've got your 80 million
bucks you stole from Compaq and HP, you don't need anymore".

--
b{-_-}d

I'm listening!

---Mapanari---

 

[Mapanari]

From what I've read, HP has improved their efficience in use of ink in
some of their newest carts. Instead of dumping ink in a cleaning cycle,
they bring it back into the cart so it can be used. I'll still stay
with my prechipped canon printers for refilling, however.

No kidding!
You'll have to shoot me and drag me behind a pickup truck by white
supremists in east texas in chains before I give up my refillable iP4000!

--
b{-_-}d

I'm listening!

---Mapanari---

 

[measekite]

"Burt" <[email protected]>
wrote

snip too long

There is not one wiff of diference between any of the inks, and I suspect,
most of the inks for all brands.

there are basically 3 brands of ink if you do not consider lexmark a
printer. that is hp, epson, and canon. any other inks only claim to be
a brand and is just a generic sold by a relabler who will not tell you
want it is. now that said formulabs is a mfg but they do not sell a
branded product so it is virtually impossible to track their quality or
lack of it in the market place. another brand is lyson but that is for
epson and is not sold all over.

And you're right about the 4200....Somehow I had the 4000 on my brain. You
can refill those very easily and/or buy $3.00 carts for them.

All canon did is change the carts to put chips in them, install a little
sensor and change the eprom and walla! They can make millions more like HP
does!

walla that is incorect. they have a total different ink formulation.