How to manage the WinXP start menu OUTSIDE of "Documents and Settings"?

[M.L.]

What I mean is that the menus, programs, installers, and data

Actually, it is the deal.

In my "C:\My Installers" directory, only I place downloads there.
In my "C:\My Programs" directory, only I put the programs there.
In my "C:\My Data" directory, only I allow programs to place data
there.

Note that anyone who has access to your computer will have access to all
those files. That might not be safe. It would be safer to place your
data in your individual "My Documents" heirarchy, which is located
inside your "Documents and Settings" heirarchy profile.

It isn't hard at all. Whenever I tell an octegenarian that they need
to control where they put things and where their programs put things,
they inherently understand me and have no problem with these
directories.

Those octagenarians probably aren't familiar with Windows security
issues.

My only problem is I still must store "My Menus" in the hopelessly
cluttered "Documents and Settings" directory.

It doesn't have to be cluttered.

All I'm trying to do is move the menus
FROM
c:\documents and settings\donna\start menu\my menus
TO
c:\my menus

Why is that simple task so impossible to do on Windows?

Probably because it creates a security issue. Anyone who has access to
the computer will be able to open any program (granted, they could do
that anyway if they learn their way around Windows Explorer).

Asking to move program shortcuts from the "Documents and Settings"
heirarchy is equivalent to asking to move installed programs from the
"My Computer" heirarchy. I don't think that can be easily done, if at
all. Changing the locations of your menu shortcuts is not the same as
changing the locations of your installers, programs or data.

Note that your C:\My Menus folder will be accessible to all users since
it is outside of your "Documents and Settings" heirarchy, but your
shortcuts belong to individual users, depending on what they install. I
think that's why Windows put them in the "Documents and Settings"
heirarchy.

No, you cannot put menu shortcuts in C:\My Menus and expect them to show
up under the Start->Programs menu unless you create some kind of script
that instantaneously copies your shortcuts from C:\My Menus to the
appropiate "Documents and Settings" heirarchy (or vice versa). And I'm
not absolutely sure even that can be done, especially if one of the
users doesn't have administrative control.

If all you want to do is organize the Start->Programs shortcuts, you can
rename and drag-and-drop the menu shortcuts while inside the
Start->Programs menu (you'll need to open the "Documents and Settings"
to create new folders though). Having those changes stored inside the
"Documents and Settings" heirarchy should be of no concern to you or the
user. In the end what's important is how the organized menus look when
you click the Start->Programs menu.

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

Just don't look too closely at C:\Windows or the registry as they may
be neat and tidy when you have finished but I couldn't guarantee if
you PC will boot again.

C:\Windows is an abomination foisted upon us by the same organizationally
lacking coders at Microsoft who created the equally abominal "My Documents
and Settings" and illogically flat "Program Files".

My advice to all my friends.
- Store nothing in "C:\Windows" and never bother to go there.
- Store nothing in "C:\My Documents & Settings" except your Start Menu.
- Store nothing in "C:\Program Files" and delete what's there that you can.

As for the Windows registry, the only advice I give my friends is to create
"commands" by using Start -> Run -> Regedit to create, for example
HKLM/SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\App Paths\<COMMAND>.exe
where the commands are things they do all the time, e.g.,
bookmark.exe (to save new bookmarks independent of browser)
todo.exe (to access their to-do list of activities)
dict.exe (to save interesting words they learn along the way)
phone.exe (to look up their address book)
etc.

Basically, any directory that is promulgated by Microsoft is an
abomination; our goal is to organize what we can and ignore or delete that
which we can't. Since "Windows" can't be deleted, it merely is ignored.
Same with the Windows registry.

Why do you find fault with that?

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

At the young age of 77, I have no trouble maintaining XP using its existing
structure. It isn't broken, so change is just busy work.

Hi Jim,
We're close in age. Who is changing Windows? I'm just organizing my files
the way they should be organized for me to always know where they are
before I even start.

All I'm asking is to see if Windows has the capabilities to store the Start
Menu in C:\My Menus.

Do you know if that's possible in Windows to store the Start Menu in C:\My
Menus?

Donna

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

It doesn't have to be cluttered.

Hi M.L.,
You are a voice of reason. I will respectfully disagree with you. I stress
that I respect your judgement so I will also take the courtesy to explain
why I think the "Documents and Settings" is hopelessly cluttered.

Example:
They put "Cookies" in Documents and Settings. Now, why would a user really
want to "save" cookies in their backup directory? It makes no sense.
Cookies are a function of the browser so they should not be in the user
area but in the browser temporary area (and, IMHO, deleted as soon as
possible).

Example:
They put *.sys files in there. What are they doing, often dozens of them,
in this user document and setting directory at the top level? They are
meaningless to the average user who has to wade through perhaps dozens of
*.inf, *.sys, and *.txt & *.log files haphazardly placed there by programs.
What are ANY files doing there at the top level of the directory?

Example:
There's a "Printhood" directory in there. What's it doing? It belongs in
the printer temporary folder, not in the users' documents and settings
backup folder.

Example:
There's an "Application Data" directory, which, upon first inspection,
appears to be a "good thing" but upon second looks, it is hopelessly
tangled in that you have almost no control over what goes in there and it's
all organized by brand not by function.

Example:
There is a "Favorites" directory which is funny because you wouldn't need a
favorites directory if you kept your system organized. Just the fact it
exists indicates the default setup is disorganized.

Example:
There is a NetHood folder; what's it doing there? Same as PrintHood it
should not be in the users document backup directory.

Example:
There is a "User Data" directory, which, upon first inspection, seems like
a good thing but just look inside. There's a set of alphabetically cryptic
directories which have nothing to do with users' data.

Example:
There is an "Incomplete" directory, which better belongs in a downloads
section than in a user backup data section.

About the only meaningful directory in here is "Desktop" which truly
contains Documents and Settings the user would want to save & back up.

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

Your thinking creates a maintenance liability for your organization.

Now frankly, I don't understand your point. Do you understand mine?

How is being able to back up data (it's all in "C:\My Data") a maintenance
liability?

I can merely back up only TWO directories on any PC in our charity and
rebuild the entire operating system without losing a shred of important
files!

All I have to do is back up "C:\My Data" and "C:\My Installers".

The "C:\My Installers" directory contains all the programs installed and
the "C:\My Data" directory contains all the application data of import and
the files saved by the user.

If it weren't for the users' menus being in that horrid Documents and
Settings hierarchy, I'd be done but I also have to move their menus over
from machine to machine (which is a simple copy process).

How is this wondrous ability to migrate from system to system merely by
copying over two directories and a set of menus a "maintenance liability"?

The recipient gets everything they had before, in the same place, with the
same names, with the same menus, with the same organization, merely by me
copying over two directories and one menu.

This is brilliant, by design. Is it only I that sees the genius in this
windows deployment setup or can you possibly see it for yourself?

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

I have already posted to you that if this occurs it is usually
because YOU have accepted that name. Why can't you understand what I
wrote? is it because you have a need to keep saying the same message
each time? What's more, you need to stop complaining about Windows
and persoanlly accept some of the responsibility for the criticisms
you level at it.

Hi Franklin,
I think I know the part you are missing. I'm sorry that I didn't make it
clear. Of course you can, after the fact, put items in the Program Files
directory using whatever organization you like.

But (and this is the part you missed and I was remiss in telling you) ...

But ... the Program Files directory is already hopelessly cluttered BEFORE
YOU EVEN STARTED!

The whole point is that this directory contains, the day before you ever
touched a PC, all sorts of crap which, I have organized in the past, but
which just isn't worth trying to organize. Things like the idiotic common
files directory (which doesn't contain common files) and a whole host of
Microsoft crap, some organized by name, others by function - all a mess.

So, I apologize for not making it clear that, while the program files
directory had a chance at being useful, they squandered that before you
ever even saw the system. It's the ONE directory you should NEVER install
anything into, because it's hopelessly cluttered from the start.

Sorry I have to explain that to you; it's my fault for not making that
clear from the beginning that the Program Files directory is cluttered
before you ever even touched the system.

Donna

 

[Franklin]

No, frankly. I don't see the difference whatsoever.

Don has a different (virtual or otherwise) drive or partition for
each of his major task divisions (programs, installers, data,
etc.). I have a different top-level directory for each of my major
task divisions (programs, installers, data, etc.).

What's the difference you speak of?

Donna

I have said ... Don has a system drive at C and just leaves it alone.

 

[Franklin]

C:\Windows is an abomination foisted upon us by the same
organizationally lacking coders at Microsoft who created the
equally abominal "My Documents and Settings" and illogically flat
"Program Files".

My advice to all my friends.
- Store nothing in "C:\Windows" and never bother to go there.
- Store nothing in "C:\My Documents & Settings" except your Start
Menu.

- Store nothing in "C:\Program Files" and delete what's there

that you can.

At least this is entertaining.

As for the Windows registry, the only advice I give my friends is
to create "commands" by using Start -> Run -> Regedit to create,
for example HKLM/SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\App
Paths\<COMMAND>.exe where the commands are things they do all the
time, e.g., bookmark.exe (to save new bookmarks independent of
browser) todo.exe (to access their to-do list of activities)
dict.exe (to save interesting words they learn along the way)
phone.exe (to look up their address book) etc.

Don't you think a shortcut would serve the same purpose and do so
without the risk?

Basically, any directory that is promulgated by Microsoft is an
abomination;

OK, I am getting a clearer picture now.

our goal is to organize what we can and ignore or
delete that which we can't.

This reminds me of the motto of some hostile deep-space civilization. I
must have Black Dwaft on my mind. You're not the hologram person are
you?

Since "Windows" can't be deleted, it
merely is ignored. Same with the Windows registry.

I'm sure someone with your initiative and determinmation could find a
way to delete the Windows directory.

Why do you find fault with that?

No one could make this up because it's too bizarre. The sadddest thing
is that,presumably, help for children depends on the data your PCs
process and those PCs do not sound as if they are in great shape. Even
if their folders are tidy.

 

[bluerhinoceros]

Why is that simple task so impossible to do on Windows?

Non-crossposted reply in ACF.

Cheers.

 

[Franklin]

This is brilliant, by design. Is it only I that sees the genius in
this windows deployment setup or can you possibly see it for
yourself?

I can not speak for others but I do not see any genius or brilliance in
what you describe.

If you will permit me to be blune because in the end someone has to say
it, I see ill-informed amateurism with delusions of competence. Sorry
if that sounds harsh but you are a real liaibility. If you just
restricted yourself to your own home PC then you could happily do what
you liked but you appear to be in charge of others' PCs.

For example there are some strange hidden files over in C:\ that look
all lumpy. Maybe we can clear out boot.ini as there's nothing much in
there if you take a look and ntldr looks particularly useless. (Just
joking, but I hope you get my meaning.)

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

For the installed Program Files portion of your quest, you can modify
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\ProgramFilesDir
(reboot) but be aware that some programs have hard coded install points.

Hi Blue Rhino,
This is folly but let me explain why as I've been though it many years ago.

I had tried, in the past, redirected the %programfilesdir%, for example,
only to find, much to my chagrin, that this causes "crap" to be loaded into
my otherwise nice and clean "C:\My Programs" directory.

You see, the minute a clean directory becomes a bona-fide %programfilesdir%
directory, all sorts of junk gets placed in there by the operating system
(don't believe me? Just try it. Instant mess!).

So, while it's possible, it's not feasible. My advice, learned through
experience, is to advise anyone I can to stay away from all the directories
that have spaces in the names. That specifically includes the Program Files
directory.

Redirecting it to my "C:\programs" directory would only perpetuate the
folly.

I tell you this out of respect - so everyone understands this before
contemplating the attempt.

Thank you for your help in redirecting the menu folder - I have much
research to try before forumulating an opinion as to whether or not it's
worth the effort ... but I will try ...

Donna

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

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Newsgroups: alt.comp.freeware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.setup_deployment,microsoft.public.windows.vista.installation_setup
Subject: Re: How to manage the WinXP start menu OUTSIDE of "Documents and Settings"?
From: Franklin <[email protected]>
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Donna, I have tried to explain things by suggestion but you don't
seem to be able to understand. I feel I need to be much more blunt.

What you have just described is no more than parading your ignorance
as if it were a virtue. It is a foolish thing and you would do well
not to repeat such aphorisms.


I have already posted to you that if this occurs it is usually
because YOU have accepted that name. Why can't you understand what I
wrote? is it because you have a need to keep saying the same message
each time? What's more, you need to stop complaining about Windows
and persoanlly accept some of the responsibility for the criticisms
you level at it.

I can not think of anything more stupid than permitting a name at
installation and then maoning to the Usenet that it is the fault of
Windows. At worst it is the fault of the software authors.


What on earth did did you expect to find there, a copy of Shakespeare
because it's a "document"? Wake up.


Even the greenest neophyte doesn't have the problems with the
organisation of these folders which you seem to obsess over.

Here's a genuine tip - never go into D&S because there is no need for
you to do so. Resist even if you feel impelled to. It is not a
directory for people like you.

Why don't you read a beginners book on Windows and see if they tell
you to look in D&S as a regular place to go? Please read a book on
Windows.

Hi Franklin,
At the risk of sounding rude, due to my age, I probably have forgotten more
about Windows than you seem to know. I've read MANY books on Windows.

I used TRS-80 and CPM and a DEC PDP11 computer where we had to hand set the
boot address. I've use paper tape and punch cards and have personally used
IBM machines with real core memory (yes, core memory). I've programmed the
IBM 360 and IBM 370 using both JCL and assembly with paper tape and punch
cards and helped my husband build Motorola 68701 microprocessor boards when
we wire-wrapped the things and wrote in non-byte-swapped assembly code.

At one time, I knew all the assembly (e.g., LDA, JMP, JNZ, etc.)
instructions by their very hex digits. I could write and read hex programs
by heard. I've forgotten how to burn an EPROM over the years, but, I know a
hell of a lot about how a PC should and could be organized, simply because
I'm much older than you and therefore have decades of experience from the
ground up.

Before Sun was king, I learned on Masscomp; then Sun OS, and then Sun
Solaris before Linux took hold. Just about when Linus Torvalds was making
headway with Linux, I moved OUT of the computer business for a while,
having retired from teaching.

Yet, the one thing I've learned over the years, is that you own the
computer; not the other way around.

You take control of the computer; not the other way around.

You decide where data and programs go - and you always know, before you
start, where EVERY SINGLE FILE will reside on your computer and where every
single program will store its files. It's just basic computer science.

BTW, my system is brilliant, by design - so I'm not surprised you have
trouble understanding it (or believing in it - because I'm sure you
understand it). My system has been working ever since Windows debued (as
I'm sure yours has too).

I've moved from PC to PC and even from Macintoshes to PC's without losing
resource-fork data (of course, the programs had to be re-installed because
the binaries were incompatible).

The simple Windows setup rules to live by are:
- Store all your programs in a directory separate from Program Files in a
simple organizational tree (e.g., browsers, editors, calendars, mailers,
burners, players, etc.).
- Store all menus with the SAME tree as your programs!
- Store all installers with the SAME tree as your programs and menus.
- Never ever use the Microsoft-supplied directories; it's like herding
kittens; it just can't be efficiently done.
- Always go through all program settings to set exactly where all temporary
files go and where finished files go and never ever let them go into a
Microsoft-suggested directory.

All I'm asking is if anyone knows how to move the Start Menu from the
"Documents and Settings" directory over to C:\My Menus.

Is this question worth that much vitriol from the likes of you?
Donna

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

I have said ... Don has a system drive at C and just leaves it alone.

So do I.
I leave "C:\Windows" alone.
I leave "C:\Program Files" alone.
I leave "C:\Documents and Settings" alone.

What's so different?

All I'm asking is to move menus from "documents and settings" to a
different directory. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Why such a big argument when all I'm doing with directories is what Don is
doing with drives (virtual, partitioned, or otherwise)?

I'm confused by your response but I respectfully am trying to answer your
concerns.

Donna

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

Don't you think a shortcut would serve the same purpose and do so
without the risk?

Hi Franklin,

I agree. As in everything computers, there are multiple ways to accomplish
the same task.

My menus have shortcuts to these documents also.

Start -> My Menus -> My Documents -> {todo.ppt, bookmarks.xls, words.doc,
contacts.txt, etc.}

Interestingly, have you noticed the silly Microsoftism which requires the
key to have an "exe" on it even though it has nothing to do with
executables? Classic Microsoft.

I was writing code well before Microsoft ever existed and we did it well in
those days. We may have used slide rules, but we flowcharted everything and
we spent countless hours making our assembly code efficient. We didn't jump
about unless absolutely necessary and we spent time structuring the code to
be sequential and to be frugal with memory.

This approach to organizing our Windows computers is not at all different.
It's the ONLY way to manage a PC.

To prove the point, may I ask you a question?
----> Have you ever needed the "Search" button in Windows? <----
I don't and nobody who follows my lead does either.

Donna

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

For example there are some strange hidden files over in C:\ that look
all lumpy. Maybe we can clear out boot.ini as there's nothing much in
there if you take a look and ntldr looks particularly useless. (Just
joking, but I hope you get my meaning.)

Funny you should mention that Franklin, because long ago (when Windows XP
came out), I tried removing all the files that could be removed.

I also used PC Magazine Change-of-Address (aka COA.exe) to move the
Microsoft-supplied items like "Common Files" into the "My Windows"
hierarchy.

I also moved all the Microsoft-supplied idiotically flat organized-by-brand
items in Program Files over to where they belonged in program files.

It was so much work that I learned that it was (from an efficiency
standpoint) hopeless to fight the clutter that is microsoft. That's when I
resolved to create a simple hierarchy that I've been using ever since. I
can migrate a user from one machine to another in minutes and NOTHING
changes for them but the keyboard! Try that with your approach!

But, to the point you noted, yes, I have had to mount my disks, long ago,
as an auxilliary disk, just to add back the NTLDR or boot.ini or
pagefile.sys, etc. files which look innoculous but which will prevent a
reboot.

Again, the moral of the story is to not try to "fix" microsoft as it's
hopeless. All we can hope to do is always know before we start where all
data will reside, by design.

It's brilliant - whether or not you can see that.
Donna

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

Good luck. Hope this helps point you in the right direction.

Thank you blue rhino! I will try all your suggestions after doing some
research.

I will make separate comments on some of the actions for succinctness.

Much appreciated ... you are the first one to point us to the proper path
in this thread!

Donna

 

[Franklin]

[big snip]

All I'm asking is if anyone knows how to move the Start Menu
from the "Documents and Settings" directory over to C:\My Menus.

Is this question worth that much vitriol from the likes of you?
Donna

Donna, I felt I have to be blunt but my frustration has made me get
annoyed. I apologize for that.

I don't think I can help. You do not use standard terms to refer to
the component parts of XP and that continues to cause
misunderstanding. If you use incorrect terms then it is no surprise
that you can't find answers on Google.

The way you describe and comment on the design quality of certain
parts of XP is rather unusual and you and I don't appear to have any
common understanding about this.

Your expectation from information technology to provide an operating
system whose very own internal structure can be bent to one's
preference in neatness seems many years ahead of where operating
systems are today.

People, including myself, have posted what seem to be useful replies
but you do not acknowledge them, understand them, or Google research
them further (I have used correct terms). It remains hard to know
what level of ability you need help at.

I'm sure you know you believe you have an insight into an alternate
folder layout for XP which few others before you have have managed to
see but your conviction is so total that you don't seem to accept
feedback on this.

I still take the view you're making XP significantly more fragile by
your changes. For example, if you make changes to or move the
Program Files folder then how will you make the appropriate changes
to the relevant hard coded paths which any given application might
have in the registry. I half-suspect other changes of yours are
causing the shell to crash when you power down and one result would
be the reset Quick Launch bar.

Perhaps your local PC supplier can meet with you and give you their
view on how they see your customizations. But would you value what
they say?

 

[Franklin]

To prove the point, may I ask you a question?
----> Have you ever needed the "Search" button in Windows? <----
I don't and nobody who follows my lead does either.

That says it all.

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

http://windowsxp.mvps.org/folderredirector.htm
http://windowsxp.mvps.org/utils/FolderRedirector.zip
"Start Menu" is definitely on the list.

Hi M.L.,
I think we're done now. Thanks to Ron May, you, and Franklin mostly.
Here's the tutorial so the next person can just cut and paste for a similar
result.

0. Decide where you wish to store your customized menus:
Start -> Run -> cmd <Return>
c:\> mkdir c:\data\menus

1. Copy existing personal well-organized menus (in this case, in "donna")
FROM:
C:\Documents and Settings\donna\Start Menu\My Menu
TO:
C:\data\menus\My Menu

2. Navigate to the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE hive "User Shell Folders" key:
Start -> Run -> Regedit
HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\User Shell Folders

Notice the set of values of type REG_EXPAND_SZ:
Common AppData = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Application Data
Common Desktop = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Desktop
Common Documents = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Documents
Common Favorites = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Favorites
Common Programs = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Start Menu\Programs
Common Start Menu = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Start Menu
Common Startup = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Start Menu\Programs\Startup
Common Templates = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Templates

3. Change the "Common Start Menu"
FROM:
Common Start Menu = %ALLUSERSPROFILE%\Start Menu
TO:
Common Start Menu = c:\data\menus

4. Reboot Windows XP and now your personalized menus are stored where you
want them.

Make sure the menus hierarchy matches EXACTLY the hierarchy you use for
your programs, installers, and for your application-data directory, e.g.,
archivers, browsers, calendars, digitizers, editors, financials, games,
hardware, internet, etc.

Thanks mostly go to Ron May, M.L., & Franklin for this wonderful
easy-to-follow tutorial for putting Windows personalized menus in your data
directory for ease of backup and reuse.

Donna
PS I'll now go back offline.

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

I still take the view you're making XP significantly more fragile by
your changes. For example, if you make changes to or move the
Program Files folder then how will you make the appropriate changes
to the relevant hard coded paths which any given application might
have in the registry. I half-suspect other changes of yours are
causing the shell to crash when you power down and one result would
be the reset Quick Launch bar.

Hi Franklin,
I think the approach you suggested worked, so, by simply modifying the USER
SHELL FOLDER key in the HKLM hive, we have together accomplished what I
could not do alone.

It was, as someone suggested, much simpler than I thought. It was trivial,
in fact, to move the folder.

I think the muddling with the philosophy was what got us all bent out of
shape, and for that, I apologize.

I agree wholeheartedly with you on NOT changing the %programfilesdir% in
the registry because the instant you do that, the clutter just follows. For
example, Microsoft instantly puts MS Office crap and Common Files crap and
much other crap in the %programfilesdir% upon the next reboot. It's
counterproductive, as you noted, but not for the same reasons you noted.

Still, even though we agree for different reasons, we agree that it's not
viable to change the programfilesdir folder. We certainly can put program
files in any folder we like, we just need to keep the programfilesdir where
it was defined by Microsoft.

The good news is I now have a brilliantly organized PC, WITH menus outside
of the Documents and Settings folder. I hope this allows me to totally
ignore what's in the Documents and Settings folder when I need to make my
monthly backups.

The goal is to rebuilt the subsequent system in minutes after the OS has
been installed; with the same menus, simply by copying over two
well-organized directories, in their entirety, from the old machine to the
new machine and then reinstalling the apps, one by one.

Thanks for all your kind advice and help,
Donna