How to manage the WinXP start menu OUTSIDE of "Documents and Settings"?

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

Is there a way to manage the WinXP start menu OUTSIDE of the hopelessly
cluttered "documents and settings" hierarchy?

For example, how could we manage our start-programs menus in, say,
c:\menus\<link>

Instead of where Windows insists on putting it, e.g.,
c:\documents and settings\donna\start menu\programs\<link>

FOR EXPERTS ONLY:
How can we create a Start Menu that is outside the Documents and Settings
hierarchy on Windows XP?

 

[POKO]

Is there a way to manage the WinXP start menu OUTSIDE of the hopelessly
cluttered "documents and settings" hierarchy?

For example, how could we manage our start-programs menus in, say,
c:\menus\<link>

Instead of where Windows insists on putting it, e.g.,
c:\documents and settings\donna\start menu\programs\<link>

FOR EXPERTS ONLY:
How can we create a Start Menu that is outside the Documents and Settings
hierarchy on Windows XP?

Donna - it was neat and organized when you first got your box and it is
easy to make it the same with a minimum amount of work. See
http://www.manitoulinislandindex.com/startmenu.jpg
Best,
POKO
--
POKO
Web Page Design
Manitoulin Island, Canada
http://manitoulinislandindex.com
(e-mail address removed)

 

[Franklin]

Is there a way to manage the WinXP start menu OUTSIDE of the
hopelessly cluttered "documents and settings" hierarchy?

For example, how could we manage our start-programs menus in, say,
c:\menus\<link>

Instead of where Windows insists on putting it, e.g.,
c:\documents and settings\donna\start menu\programs\<link>

FOR EXPERTS ONLY:
How can we create a Start Menu that is outside the Documents and
Settings hierarchy on Windows XP?

Donna

This is the second time in only a few days that you have asked this
qustion and you have already received replies the first time.

The deployment and installation groups you have used for cross-
posting suggest you don't think this is really a specific freeware
question. Ib fact I'm not too clear why it would be a deployment
question other than your own personal preference to make custom
modifications before deployment.

As a general observation, you seem to be trying to impose something a
bit like old-style DOS or Win9X system folder structure on
WinXP/Vista in order to tidy things up.

I suspect this will actually have the opposite effect because many
apps assume the usual folders exist in the place where XP/Vista would
normally have them. You mentioned this was already happening in your
first post.

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

This is the second time in only a few days that you have asked this
qustion and you have already received replies the first time.

Hi Franklin,
I appreciate the help. I had posed the question as an aside in a
freeware-related thread - but then realized I should have posted it all by
itself in its own thread - so that's what I did.

I'm not too clear why it would be a deployment question

It's actually a deployment question _and_ a freeware question.
Deployment because it's an initial setup setting.
Freeware because there must be freeware out there to manage menus.

You seem to be trying to impose old-style folder structure on
WinXP/Vista in order to tidy things up.

Not at all. All I am looking to do is tidy things up (as you noted) by
organizing my computer. That has nothing to do with old-style unless we all
simply give up on organizing our WinXP and Vista computers (something I
refuse to concede on).

apps assume the usual folders exist in the place where XP/Vista would
normally have them. You mentioned this was already happening in your
first post.

This only happens for the badly written programs. More than 90% of the
programs I use are actually well written (i.e., they allow you to organize
your file system as you see fit). That is ...
- They allow you to put them where they belong
- They allow you to set their data directories where they belong

Now, the problem is the menus.
All I want to do is put my Windows menus where they belong.
I define where they belong - not Microsoft.
Why?

Well, I explained it in the prior thread; the quick summary would be that
Microsoft knows nothing about computer organization. The first glance at
the flat Program Files order-by-company-name would make anyone who is
organized aghast with horror. Same with the Start Menu.

Microsoft knows nothing about maintaining a clean PC hierarchy nor about
maintaining a clean Start Menu hierarchy (same hierarchy).

All I'm asking is how to do two things:
I. How to locate a Start Menu link OUTSIDE "Documents and Settings"
II. How to prevent any program from storing anything in that personal menu

Donna

 

[Franklin]

Hi Franklin,
I appreciate the help. I had posed the question as an aside in a
freeware-related thread - but then realized I should have posted it
all by itself in its own thread - so that's what I did.


It's actually a deployment question _and_ a freeware question.
Deployment because it's an initial setup setting.
Freeware because there must be freeware out there to manage menus.

Yes, it's true that it is both deployment and freeware. In reality,
it a deployment question and in addition you hope there is a freeware
solution.

The problem is that you could post about almost anything to do with
PCs and hope there is a freeware solution. Then we here in
alt.comp.freeware would be flooded out!

Not at all. All I am looking to do is tidy things up (as you noted)
by organizing my computer. That has nothing to do with old-style
unless we all simply give up on organizing our WinXP and Vista
computers (something I refuse to concede on).


This only happens for the badly written programs. More than 90% of
the programs I use are actually well written (i.e., they allow you
to organize your file system as you see fit). That is ...
- They allow you to put them where they belong
- They allow you to set their data directories where they belong

I do not recognise the way you are using the term "file system". It
has a specific meaning and my understanding of that meaning does not
seem to fit with what you ask about a "file system".

Now, the problem is the menus.
All I want to do is put my Windows menus where they belong.
I define where they belong - not Microsoft.
Why?

Well, I explained it in the prior thread; the quick summary would
be that Microsoft knows nothing about computer organization.

I am not too sure how you are using "computer organization". Do you
mean how tidy the folders are? It is not really the purpose of an
typical operating system to keep its internal folders neat and tidy.
If you want that then maybe an object-oriented operating system would
suit you better than Windows.

The
first glance at the flat Program Files order-by-company-name would
make anyone who is organized aghast with horror. Same with the
Start Menu.

Most programs prompt the user to ask if the installation folder names
suits them. You can change the name at that point with almost no
effort. Often the same option is available to change the name of the
Start menu entry.

Below you ask about moving the Start Menu folder out of D&S but now I
am not convinced you really mean that. If it helps you, you can
rename any entry in the All Programs menu in the Start menu and you
can right click to re-sort them.

The All Program menu entries are merged from:
C:\Documents and Settings\%USER%\Start Menu\Programs
C:\Documents and Settings\ALL USERS\Start Menu\Programs

The items on the top left of the Start menu can be dragged to the
order you wish. The bottoms left is in use order and can be changed
to show a different number of entries. Those on the right side of
the Start menu are more or less fixed.

Microsoft knows nothing about maintaining a clean PC hierarchy nor
about maintaining a clean Start Menu hierarchy (same hierarchy).

All I'm asking is how to do two things:
I. How to locate a Start Menu link OUTSIDE "Documents and
Settings"

II. How to prevent any program from storing anything in
that personal menu

What is a "personal menu" ? If you don't mind me saying, your
unusual terminology suggests you might do well to revise some of your
notes or books or web pages on Windows before you make any changes.
Better to learnt what the different components do before moving them
around in a big way.

Your approach reminds me a bit of someone who wants to keep their
desktop combined fax and phone machine clean. So they open it up and
give it good, dusting, wiping over and finish with a polishing up. If
the unprotected mirror silvering comes off the reflective bar (and I
have seen exactly this happen) then the fax machine will no longer
scan any documents.

But it will be clean!

Donna

http://www.casav4c.org/staff.html ?

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

I do not recognise the way you are using the term "file system".

What I mean is that the menus, programs, installers, and data should all go
into a directory that I choose and that I maintain. I don't ever want
anyone else choosing or adding "things" to that directory.

For example, if I were to back up my "documents and settings" directory, it
would be full of useless clutter. However, since I store all my desired
data into my own directory, I can back it up without adding clutter.

That's what I mean about the directories with spaces in the name. Since
they are system directories, they get filled up with useless clutter.

There are only four directories in my "file system" that I care about
managing:
- My installer directory (where I save my downloaded freeware programs)
- My programs directory (where I install the downloaded freeware programs)
- My menu directory (where I put shortcuts to the freeware executables)
- My data directory (where I store my important email, documents, etc.)

This thread is all about that last directory tree, the "menu" directory
tree.

If I leave it in "Documents & Setttings", a ton of useless clutter goes in
there, all organized haphazardly, some by application type, others by
application name, but all haphazard and unwanted.

All I want in this thread is to figure out how to maintain the menu
structure OUTSIDE that haphazard directory tree.

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

Your preference for no spaces in a file name is puzzling and perhaps
comes from another older OS. Don't overlook anything on LFNs when
you start reading about Windows.

The "don't put anything in a directory with spaces in the name" was just an
aphorism to tell people to avoid the most cluttered system directories,
e.g., "Program Files" which is organized haphazardly by brand name, not
function; and "Documents and Settings" which has temporary files and
profiles and application files all mixed up by both brand name and by
function; etc.

The point is that these directories are hopelessly cluttered and
disorganized before you even start using the Windows PC for the first time.

In the past, I used to try to manage them but the situation is hopeless as
neither Program Files nor Documents and Settings is totally under your
control.

That's why I tell everyone to avoid them like you avoid mass murderors. You
can't trust what they'll do.

The aphorism of avoiding directories with a space in the name is merely an
easy way for people to remember these directories. The actual space in the
name is meaningless as Windows XP handles (most) spaces well (the registry
still has problems with them and typing commands in the run window still
has problems with them so I never use spaces but that's another topic
altogether).

Point is, the only way to organize a Windows PC is to control the
organization yourself - and the only control you will ever fully have is
with your own directory tree.

c:\my installers
c:\my programs
c:\my documents
c:\my settings
c:\my menus
etc.

My only problem is figuring out how to place the Start Menu menus in "c:\my
menus" instead of in the hopelessly cluttered "Documents and Settings"
hierarchy.

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

What is going to happen to the PCs you have so heavily customized to
suit your personal ideas of what a PC's folder structure should look
like? It seems likely that unless you keep good documentation then
such PC configurations may well be completely unmaintainable

Quite the contrary.

What happens is people ignore the cluttered mess inherent in "Program
Files" and "Documents and Settings" and blissfully maintain a clean PC
hierarchy which requires no explanation (except, for some reason, to you).

Simple rule: Know where you will put things before you put them there.

1. Installers go in C:\My Installers
2. Programs go in C:\My Programs
3. Program data goes in C:\My Data
4. Menus (try to) go in C:\My Menus
etc.

Such a PC configuration is inherently maintainable by people age 70 and 80
without any problems. It's the disorganized mess in "Program Files" and in
"Documents and Settings" that is hopelessly cluttered and never to be
understood fully.

I've never had a problem explaining this to my friends, all of whom are
retired and decidedly not computer experts ... that I'm shocked that this
point is lost on this group.

Can anyone else concur that our organizational strategy is sound?
Or, it is a non sequitur to everyone else but me?

 

[Franklin]

What I mean is that the menus, programs, installers, and data
should all go into a directory that I choose and that I maintain. I
don't ever want anyone else choosing or adding "things" to that
directory.

Unfortunately that is not the deal.

Why do you have such a strong and pressing need for your wishful
arrangement when literally hundreds of millions of other users manage
perfectly well with the way Windows has been designed?

Are you a new user who is finding Windows a bit awkward to
understand?

For example, if I were to back up my "documents and settings"
directory, it would be full of useless clutter. However, since I
store all my desired data into my own directory, I can back it up
without adding clutter.

That's what I mean about the directories with spaces in the name.
Since they are system directories, they get filled up with useless
clutter.

There are only four directories in my "file system" that I care
about managing:
- My installer directory (where I save my downloaded freeware
programs)
- My programs directory (where I install the downloaded
freeware programs)
- My menu directory (where I put shortcuts to
the freeware executables)
- My data directory (where I store my
important email, documents, etc.)

This thread is all about that last directory tree, the "menu"
directory tree.

If I leave it in "Documents & Setttings", a ton of useless clutter
goes in there, all organized haphazardly, some by application type,
others by application name, but all haphazard and unwanted.

All I want in this thread is to figure out how to maintain the menu
structure OUTSIDE that haphazard directory tree.

I am not sure of what your request to "maintain the menu structure"
actually means as I do not know anything about how you have set up
your "menu directory (where I put shortcuts to the freeware
executables)"

If all you want to do is have a menu of shortcut links then why not
use the Quick Launch bar (see Google). XP's Quick Launch bar can be
squashed up so that it pops up as a menu when clicked on.

What is going to happen to the PCs you have so heavily customized to
suit your personal ideas of what a PC's folder structure should look
like? It seems likely that unless you keep good documentation then
such PC configurations may well be completely unmaintainable by
anyone else as they are unlikely to share your notion that Windows
needs completely reorganizing.

Your preference for no spaces in a file name is puzzling and perhaps
comes from another older OS. Don't overlook anything on LFNs when
you start reading about Windows.

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

If all you want to do is have a menu of shortcut links then why not
use the Quick Launch bar (see Google). XP's Quick Launch bar can be
squashed up so that it pops up as a menu when clicked on.

We already have no problem maintaining our own menus outside of the frail
Quick Launch mechanism (which seems to dissapear every time the machine
reboots unnaturally).

What we have a problem with is moving "My Menu" from the "Documents and
Settings" hopelessly cluttered hierarchy into a clean "C:\My Menus"
hierarchy - that's all.

All we want to know is how to press "Start -> My Menus" and pull up our
menus from "C:\My Menus". Is it possible?

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

Unfortunately that is not the deal.

Actually, it is the deal.

In my "C:\My Installers" directory, only I place downloads there.
In my "C:\My Programs" directory, only I put the programs there.
In my "C:\My Data" directory, only I allow programs to place data there.

It isn't hard at all. Whenever I tell an octegenarian that they need to
control where they put things and where their programs put things, they
inherently understand me and have no problem with these directories.

My only problem is I still must store "My Menus" in the hopelessly
cluttered "Documents and Settings" directory.

All I'm trying to do is move the menus
FROM
c:\documents and settings\donna\start menu\my menus
TO
c:\my menus

Why is that simple task so impossible to do on Windows?

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

I'm pretty much organized in the way you suggest;
I have C:\System, D:\Data, F:\Finance,G:\Genealogy, I:\Applications,
So I, qualified for your identified age group

Thank you! I was beginning to wonder if only it was only my friends who
cared about knowing exactly what files we put on our PCs and where.

I'm guessing the younger generation is so scared by the computer that they
let it run all over them.

Reminds me when my husband Bill could fix a carbeurator or leaking radiator
hose with popsicle sticks, frozen orange-juice cans, and hose clamps!

I guess we are in the age group that still believes we can control the
contraptions in our lives ... everyone else seems to have given up!

If I could only get my Windows start menus into M:\Menus (using your
organizational system), I'd be happier!

Donna

 

[gavin]

Quite the contrary.

What happens is people ignore the cluttered mess inherent in "Program
Files" and "Documents and Settings" and blissfully maintain a clean PC
hierarchy which requires no explanation (except, for some reason, to you).

Simple rule: Know where you will put things before you put them there.

1. Installers go in C:\My Installers
2. Programs go in C:\My Programs
3. Program data goes in C:\My Data
4. Menus (try to) go in C:\My Menus
etc.

Such a PC configuration is inherently maintainable by people age 70 and 80
without any problems. It's the disorganized mess in "Program Files" and in
"Documents and Settings" that is hopelessly cluttered and never to be
understood fully.

I've never had a problem explaining this to my friends, all of whom are
retired and decidedly not computer experts ... that I'm shocked that this
point is lost on this group.

Which tells me the point is not a big deal to anyone but you!

 

[Jim]

Quite the contrary.

What happens is people ignore the cluttered mess inherent in "Program
Files" and "Documents and Settings" and blissfully maintain a clean PC
hierarchy which requires no explanation (except, for some reason, to you).

Simple rule: Know where you will put things before you put them there.

1. Installers go in C:\My Installers
2. Programs go in C:\My Programs
3. Program data goes in C:\My Data
4. Menus (try to) go in C:\My Menus
etc.

Such a PC configuration is inherently maintainable by people age 70 and 80
without any problems. It's the disorganized mess in "Program Files" and in
"Documents and Settings" that is hopelessly cluttered and never to be
understood fully.

I've never had a problem explaining this to my friends, all of whom are
retired and decidedly not computer experts ... that I'm shocked that this
point is lost on this group.

Can anyone else concur that our organizational strategy is sound?
Or, it is a non sequitur to everyone else but me?

At the young age of 77, I have no trouble maintaining XP using its existing
structure. It isn't broken, so change is just busy work.
Jim

 

[Franklin]

The "don't put anything in a directory with spaces in the name" was
just an aphorism to tell people to avoid the most cluttered system
directories,

Donna, I have tried to explain things by suggestion but you don't
seem to be able to understand. I feel I need to be much more blunt.

What you have just described is no more than parading your ignorance
as if it were a virtue. It is a foolish thing and you would do well
not to repeat such aphorisms.

e.g., "Program Files" which is organized haphazardly
by brand name, not function;

I have already posted to you that if this occurs it is usually
because YOU have accepted that name. Why can't you understand what I
wrote? is it because you have a need to keep saying the same message
each time? What's more, you need to stop complaining about Windows
and persoanlly accept some of the responsibility for the criticisms
you level at it.

I can not think of anything more stupid than permitting a name at
installation and then maoning to the Usenet that it is the fault of
Windows. At worst it is the fault of the software authors.

and "Documents and Settings" which has
temporary files and profiles and application files all mixed up by
both brand name and by function; etc.

What on earth did did you expect to find there, a copy of Shakespeare
because it's a "document"? Wake up.

The point is that these directories are hopelessly cluttered and
disorganized before you even start using the Windows PC for the
first time.

Even the greenest neophyte doesn't have the problems with the
organisation of these folders which you seem to obsess over.

Here's a genuine tip - never go into D&S because there is no need for
you to do so. Resist even if you feel impelled to. It is not a
directory for people like you.

Why don't you read a beginners book on Windows and see if they tell
you to look in D&S as a regular place to go? Please read a book on
Windows.

In the past, I used to try to manage them but the situation is
hopeless as neither Program Files nor Documents and Settings is
totally under your control.

That's why I tell everyone to avoid them like you avoid mass
murderors. You can't trust what they'll do.

The aphorism of avoiding directories with a space in the name is
merely an easy way for people to remember these directories. The
actual space in the name is meaningless as Windows XP handles
(most) spaces well (the registry still has problems with them and
typing commands in the run window still has problems with them so I
never use spaces but that's another topic altogether).

In that case don't use the RUN window. Ever. Unless instructed by
someone who understands Windows. There is no need for a user at your
level to use RUN. Honestly.

Point is, the only way to organize a Windows PC is to control the
organization yourself - and the only control you will ever fully
have is with your own directory tree.

That is an way of thinking from Win98 where control was possible. I
have over 150,000 files in my D&S. What do you want to do with
those? Do you feel impelled to come round here and organise them for
me? No, I'm sure not. Just leave them alone, they are in the right
place and doing the right thing.

c:\my installers
c:\my programs
c:\my documents
c:\my settings
c:\my menus
etc.

I have said this is a Win9X approach. You are not using Win9X
architecture when using WinXP.

My only problem is figuring out how to place the Start Menu menus
in "c:\my menus" instead of in the hopelessly cluttered "Documents
and Settings" hierarchy.

I think your problem is finding a way to leave well alone.

 

[Franklin]

Quite the contrary.

What happens is people ignore the cluttered mess inherent in
"Program Files" and "Documents and Settings" and blissfully
maintain a clean PC hierarchy which requires no explanation
(except, for some reason, to you).

Simple rule: Know where you will put things before you put them
there.

1. Installers go in C:\My Installers
2. Programs go in C:\My Programs
3. Program data goes in C:\My Data
4. Menus (try to) go in C:\My Menus
etc.

Such a PC configuration is inherently maintainable by people age 70
and 80 without any problems. It's the disorganized mess in "Program
Files" and in "Documents and Settings" that is hopelessly cluttered
and never to be understood fully.

I've never had a problem explaining this to my friends, all of whom
are retired and decidedly not computer experts ... that I'm shocked
that this point is lost on this group.

Can anyone else concur that our organizational strategy is sound?
Or, it is a non sequitur to everyone else but me?

Your thinking creates a maintenance liability for your organization.
Everyone starts with no knowledge but you don't seem to be able to
hear information when it is told to you.

I am sorry to say it but if I were in your organization I would limit
and further messing up of the PCs by removing all of them from you
immediately. I would have someone remedy the tidiness you have
carefully created (and perhaps spent many fruitless hours on doing)
and put it all back to conventional operational structures whilst you
are still available to advise what exactly you have done. Then I
would put you on a training course for Windows with the understanding
that you do not being your iconoclastic strategies to bear but that
you limit questions to the material being taught.

Sadly, I suspect you may still not be able to accept that you go
can't make a major reorganization of the Windows folders in the way
you are so insistent upon without causing a maintenance nightmare as
well as increasing system fragility.

What do you want to do next - re-arrange the components on the PC's
motherboard so they all line up the same way?

 

[Franklin]

We already have no problem maintaining our own menus outside of the
frail Quick Launch mechanism (which seems to dissapear every time
the machine reboots unnaturally).

What we have a problem with is moving "My Menu" from the "Documents
and Settings" hopelessly cluttered hierarchy into a clean "C:\My
Menus" hierarchy - that's all.

All we want to know is how to press "Start -> My Menus" and pull up
our menus from "C:\My Menus". Is it possible?

I have already told you how to do this.

 

[Franklin]

Actually, it is the deal.

In my "C:\My Installers" directory, only I place downloads there.
In my "C:\My Programs" directory, only I put the programs there.
In my "C:\My Data" directory, only I allow programs to place data
there.

It isn't hard at all. Whenever I tell an octegenarian that they
need to control where they put things and where their programs put
things, they inherently understand me and have no problem with
these directories.

My only problem is I still must store "My Menus" in the hopelessly
cluttered "Documents and Settings" directory.

All I'm trying to do is move the menus
FROM
c:\documents and settings\donna\start menu\my menus
TO
c:\my menus

Why is that simple task so impossible to do on Windows?

Because you are unable to listen.

 

[Franklin]

Thank you! I was beginning to wonder if only it was only my friends
who cared about knowing exactly what files we put on our PCs and
where.

This is getting beyond silliness. Do you honestly mean you can't see
that Don's organisation is nothing like the one you keep asking for?

Don has a system drive at C and just leaves it alone. I set my PC up
like this too. Why don't you do the same?

I hope you realize you are asking for something else. Sadly, I don't
think you can see this.

Just don't look too closely at C:\Windows or the registry as they may
be neat and tidy when you have finished but I couldn't guarantee if
you PC will boot again.

Goethe wrote, "Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action".

Learn from him. He was a great man.

I'm guessing the younger generation is so scared by the computer
that they let it run all over them.

Reminds me when my husband Bill could fix a carbeurator or leaking
radiator hose with popsicle sticks, frozen orange-juice cans, and
hose clamps!

I guess we are in the age group that still believes we can control
the contraptions in our lives ... everyone else seems to have given
up!

If I could only get my Windows start menus into M:\Menus (using
your organizational system), I'd be happier!

Could you ask Bill if he can fix it for you?

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator]

This is getting beyond silliness. Do you honestly mean you can't see
that Don's organisation is nothing like the one you keep asking for?

No, frankly. I don't see the difference whatsoever.

Don has a different (virtual or otherwise) drive or partition for each of
his major task divisions (programs, installers, data, etc.). I have a
different top-level directory for each of my major task divisions
(programs, installers, data, etc.).

What's the difference you speak of?

Donna