W
WhItE RaBBiT
Required engine adds XX[x]Mb to OS, reminiscent of VB. :-(
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R
Roger Johansson
techie said:C, C++, Pascal, Modula-2, Ruby, python, Java, Ada, Perl, Tcl/Tk, Lisp,
Smalltalk, Prolog, and a whole host of others are free and not designed to
force you to buy a payware part later as your needs mature.
But none of them are as simple to learn and use as Rebol.
I agree on the disadvantage of it being a proprietary product though.
I was disappointed that the freeware version did not allow starting of
other programs, but found out later that ingenious people have created
example programs for the free version which can do that anyway, without
having to buy the payware parts of Rebol.
A few years ago I would have highly recommended Visual Basic to someone
who just wanted to learn a little programming. But now, with Linux growing
so fast, it seems a serious mistake to get locked into a language that
will chain them to one platform. Whatever language is selected should be
multiplatform so that the skills they acquire and the programs they write
can go with them if they want to change operating systems later.
RapidQ has good possibilities to be a multi-platform language.
There is already today a payware version, rapidq:s successor Real Basic,
which compiles to both windows and linux.
There are also several freeware projects which use the rapidq language,
like Hotbasic and FBSL, and they are written in languages which make it
easy to compile those languages into any operating system later.
So you are not locked into Windows with RapidQ and it is developed by a lot
of people although its creator, William Yu, has gone into the commercial
Real Basic project. It is the freeware version he left behind which has
evolved into the RapidQ basic of today, and it has spawned several other
languages too.
RapidQ was designed to be a freeware alternative to Visual Basic, and is a
lot easier to learn and to read.
T
techie
But none of them are as simple to learn and use as Rebol. I agree on the
disadvantage of it being a proprietary product though.
Ruby and (despite my own dislike of their nazi indentation) python are
both easy languages. Anyone who can learn 13-statement BASIC should be
able to handle either one.
RapidQ has good possibilities to be a multi-platform language.
When I recommend a language to a novice, features that are only "good
possibilities" aren't even worth considering. There are enough finished
languages out there that nobody needs to gamble on the future
development plans and economic survival of one business with an
experimental product.
There is already today a payware version, rapidq:s successor Real
Basic, which compiles to both windows and linux. There are also
several freeware projects which use the rapidq language, like Hotbasic
and FBSL, and they are written in languages which make it easy to
compile those languages into any operating system later.
Then Hotbasic or FBSL might be acceptable answers. As a proprietary
product, RapidQ is not an acceptable repy in a *freeware* group.
RapidQ was designed to be a freeware alternative to Visual Basic, and is
a lot easier to learn and to read.
It sounds more to me like a demo for the pay version. Deliberately
crippled so as to be just good enough to get you hooked, and then you
have to pay for full functionality, and then after that you have to pay
again when you want to port your code to another OS.
T
techie
5. Why I would recommend Java?
Well, that's what I can think for now. If anyone else can add anything,
please do.
Required engine adds XX[x]Mb to OS, reminiscent of VB. :-(
Also Java's multiplatform abilities are limited by Sun's willigness to
port the Java Virtual Machine to a given platform. I never much cared for
Java for security reasons, but for many years my fellow FreeBSD users
griped about not being able to run Java apps because Sun didn't consider
FreeBSD worth their time. We finally got a FreeBSD-native JVM about six
months ago but it's flaky and Sun doesn't seem too concerned with fixing
it. Not only that, but the FreeBSD developers can't distribute Java on the
install CD's because of Sun's stranglehold on the code. If I want to run
Java apps, I have to go to their site, give them a bunch of personal
information that is none of their damn business, and then as you say
download umpteen megabytes over a rural dialup that often manages only 21K
and frequently corrupts the data. Then once I have the file it won't
install without a fight, and once I get it going I still have a JVM that
doesn't quite work.
This is hardly my idea of of "multiplatform portability".
All of that aside, I think Java is a great idea that is fast reaching
obsolescence before it was ever able to achieve maturity. It's still a
nice niche language for web applications, where Internet users need to be
able to run small remote programs in a safe sandbox, but it's too slow for
large local applications. Compiled languages and multiplatform libraries
like GTK and wxwindows solve the portability problem while yielding much
faster code than Java - and, incidentally, they're open-source and don't
leave users and developers at the mercy of some distant corporation.
R
Roger Johansson
techie said:Then Hotbasic or FBSL might be acceptable answers. As a proprietary
product, RapidQ is not an acceptable repy in a *freeware* group.
RapidQ is freeware, it was written and released as freeware.
The autor had the copyright though, and he later sold his future versions
to the realbasic company. The following versions were renamed to realbasic.
He was also hired by that company, so he cannot participate in the
development of rapidq anymore.
But nothing of this changes the status of rapidq as freeware.
It was released as freeware and stays freeware.
The owner of realbasic company has also declared publically that he gives
the language rapidq away as public domain property, he only owns the
copyright to the last freeware compiler.
We may not hack into that compiler, but we are free to use it as long as we
like, and we are free to write new compilers for the rapidq language.
This makes the rapidq language into a free language, anybody can write new
compilators for it, and declare them open source or whatever they like.
This is why there are several groups which are developing new compilers
based on the rapidq language.
It sounds more to me like a demo for the pay version. Deliberately
crippled so as to be just good enough to get you hooked, and then you
have to pay for full functionality, and then after that you have to pay
again when you want to port your code to another OS.
When rapidq was released the author had no commercial plans, it was
released as freeware.
The same could happen to photofiltre in the future. The author has released
it as freeware. Those versions will stay freeware even if he is accepting a
commercial offer for the program later.
You cannot change the status of a freeware program once it has been
released as freeware.
So you are drawing the wrong conclusions, rapidq is not a crippled version
of a pay version, it is a freeware predecessor to a pay version which has
later been released, under another name.
I have tried many programming languages and rapidq is the one I felt was
the best for me as a beginner, the easiest to learn and to create useful
programs with a minimum of effort.
The many available example programs also makes rapidq valuable.
The easiest way to learn to program is to study others programs, change a
thing here and there and recompile, learn a little at a time, and get the
satisfaction of reshaping and creating programs that work from day 1.
J
John Hood
yware part if you need more features later.
But none of them are as simple to learn and use as Rebol.
I agree on the disadvantage of it being a proprietary product though.
[Snippage]
Roger -
I took a look at Rebol, and it looks good, but my question is - can you
build executables with it?
John H.
John Hood E-mail: (e-mail address removed) Website: John's Best of Freeware:
http://home.wi.rr.com/johnhood/freeware/
C, C++, Pascal, Modula-2, Ruby, python, Java, Ada, Perl, Tcl/Tk, Lisp,
But none of them are as simple to learn and use as Rebol.
I agree on the disadvantage of it being a proprietary product though.
[Snippage]
Roger -
I took a look at Rebol, and it looks good, but my question is - can you
build executables with it?
John H.
John Hood E-mail: (e-mail address removed) Website: John's Best of Freeware:
http://home.wi.rr.com/johnhood/freeware/
R
Roger Johansson
John Hood said:I took a look at Rebol, and it looks good, but my question is - can you
build executables with it?
I don't think so, unless you want to use the SDK package they offer, but
then you have to go into some complicated ownership of the program code
legal arrangement with the rebol company.
There are proprietal aspects of rebol which make it less attractive, which
is a pity considering how good it could be if it was open source software.
I do not know if you are allowed to distribute the language together with
your own scripts, so you can distribute your programs/scripts to others.
But I think so.
These considerations are the reason I didn't get involved in rebol, I
prefer the free situation in RapidQ where you can freely distribute your
compiled exe files, your source code, and even the compiler if you like to
give the users possibility to change and recompile the programs.
M
Mark Carter
C, C++, Pascal, Modula-2, Ruby, python, Java, Ada, Perl, Tcl/Tk, Lisp,
Python is extremely easy to learn and use. It even comes with a
tutorial as part of its standard package.
Python also comes with a wealth of modules - and more are available
free from a variety of places.
You can "sorta" build Windows executables with python using py2exe;
although its really designed to be interpretted.
But none of them are as simple to learn and use as Rebol.
Python is extremely easy to learn and use. It even comes with a
tutorial as part of its standard package.
I agree on the disadvantage of it being a proprietary product though.
Python also comes with a wealth of modules - and more are available
free from a variety of places.
I took a look at Rebol, and it looks good, but my question is - can you
build executables with it?
You can "sorta" build Windows executables with python using py2exe;
although its really designed to be interpretted.
R
Roger Johansson
Python is extremely easy to learn and use. It even comes with a
tutorial as part of its standard package.
Are there good programmers tools for python, like a wysiwyg visual editor
for the visual elements, a menu designer, context sensitive help, syntax
coloring editor, debugger, etc..?
We have a lot of such tools for rapidq. But not all we could wish for.
We are still working on it.
Python also comes with a wealth of modules - and more are available
free from a variety of places.
You can "sorta" build Windows executables with python using py2exe;
although its really designed to be interpretted.
Yes, I had forgotten this, your answer is much better than my talk about
SDK stuff. The SDK is used to change the rebol language itself, and all
such code becomes the property of rebol.com.
But to compile and distribute programs you use the py2exe program.
M
Mark Carter
Are there good programmers tools for python, like a wysiwyg visual editor
I'd say that it isn't perfect. The standard IDE (called IDLE) that you
get with Python is somewhat minimalistic. Still, I found that it does
the job.
If you want a complete IDE with GUI designer etc., then
Boa-Constructor is a good bet. There are others - but I haven't tried
then out. Boa has its quirks, but once you've gotten over a fairly
small learning curve, it's actually quite good. Boa is under active
development, so one should expect that many of the rough edges will
get smoothed out as time progresses.
You can also edit python code with popular editors like vim, emacs,
and Scite.
Distributing python executables tends to be discouraged. You need to
distribute a lot of supporting stuff if you want the executable work
"out of the box". Mind you, I packaged up a VB6 application a few
months ago, and turned out to be a behemoth. It was only a simple app,
too.
for the visual elements, a menu designer, context sensitive help, syntax
coloring editor, debugger, etc..?
I'd say that it isn't perfect. The standard IDE (called IDLE) that you
get with Python is somewhat minimalistic. Still, I found that it does
the job.
If you want a complete IDE with GUI designer etc., then
Boa-Constructor is a good bet. There are others - but I haven't tried
then out. Boa has its quirks, but once you've gotten over a fairly
small learning curve, it's actually quite good. Boa is under active
development, so one should expect that many of the rough edges will
get smoothed out as time progresses.
You can also edit python code with popular editors like vim, emacs,
and Scite.
But to compile and distribute programs you use the py2exe program.
Distributing python executables tends to be discouraged. You need to
distribute a lot of supporting stuff if you want the executable work
"out of the box". Mind you, I packaged up a VB6 application a few
months ago, and turned out to be a behemoth. It was only a simple app,
too.
J
johnhood
Roger -Roger said:I don't think so, unless you want to use the SDK package they offer, but
then you have to go into some complicated ownership of the program code
legal arrangement with the rebol company.
There are proprietal aspects of rebol which make it less attractive, which
is a pity considering how good it could be if it was open source software.
I do not know if you are allowed to distribute the language together with
your own scripts, so you can distribute your programs/scripts to others.
But I think so.
These considerations are the reason I didn't get involved in rebol, I
prefer the free situation in RapidQ where you can freely distribute your
compiled exe files, your source code, and even the compiler if you like to
give the users possibility to change and recompile the programs.
Thanks, That'sw what I was thinking. It'll be a pretty good developemnt
and learning tool though.
John H.
John Hood's Best of Freeware
Http://home/wi.rr.com/johnhood/freeware/
A
A man
The below info is for Windows/DOS machines. It does not apply to
other systems like Macs, Unix, or Sun.
Writing software is a complex and difficult task for people who have
no formal training (i.e. have not taken a class). If you have not
programmed before, it is rather tricky.
But making a GUI/windows program now consists of these steps:
- Get a compiler and install it.
- Create a project which will contain all your screens.
- Put controls on the program's screen. (A control is like a text box
where you type stuff in or a button that you press.)
- Write code so your program will do stuff.
- Compile the program to an EXE file.
There are many languages to use when programming but beginners
generally start with Pascal or Basic. There are even many types of
Pascal or Basic, so one Pascal program written for one Pascal
compiler will not work with another Pascal compiler, unless the
program is some standard type of Pascal.
For free compilers, go to the Freezone page below, and look in the
SWDev-Compilers or SWDev-Pascal sections.
Sometimes you just need a text editor to edit a text file to make a
program. The text file is then "compiled" into an EXE file (for
Wintel machines). Sometimes the compiler comes with an IDE
(integrated development environment) which allows you to make GUI
programs for Windows.
As a beginner I might start with:
- Freepascal (www.freepascal.org)
- Delphi (uses Pascal, there was a free version 6 from
www.borland.com)
- Turbo Pascal (for DOS only, but there are free versions now, Google
for them)
- Dev Pascal (www.bloodshed.net)
- or maybe BCX (a form of Basic, bcx.basicguru.com)
These are the most widely supported compilers where you will be
easily to find tutorials and examples.
Chuck
--
Freezone Freeware: 1200+ applications
http://chuckr.freeshell.org (zip file of file list only)
http://freezone.darksoft.co.nz
http://home.att.net/~chuckr30/index.html (zip file of file list only)
http://chuckr.bravepages.com
other systems like Macs, Unix, or Sun.
Writing software is a complex and difficult task for people who have
no formal training (i.e. have not taken a class). If you have not
programmed before, it is rather tricky.
But making a GUI/windows program now consists of these steps:
- Get a compiler and install it.
- Create a project which will contain all your screens.
- Put controls on the program's screen. (A control is like a text box
where you type stuff in or a button that you press.)
- Write code so your program will do stuff.
- Compile the program to an EXE file.
There are many languages to use when programming but beginners
generally start with Pascal or Basic. There are even many types of
Pascal or Basic, so one Pascal program written for one Pascal
compiler will not work with another Pascal compiler, unless the
program is some standard type of Pascal.
For free compilers, go to the Freezone page below, and look in the
SWDev-Compilers or SWDev-Pascal sections.
Sometimes you just need a text editor to edit a text file to make a
program. The text file is then "compiled" into an EXE file (for
Wintel machines). Sometimes the compiler comes with an IDE
(integrated development environment) which allows you to make GUI
programs for Windows.
As a beginner I might start with:
- Freepascal (www.freepascal.org)
- Delphi (uses Pascal, there was a free version 6 from
www.borland.com)
- Turbo Pascal (for DOS only, but there are free versions now, Google
for them)
- Dev Pascal (www.bloodshed.net)
- or maybe BCX (a form of Basic, bcx.basicguru.com)
These are the most widely supported compilers where you will be
easily to find tutorials and examples.
Chuck
--
Freezone Freeware: 1200+ applications
http://chuckr.freeshell.org (zip file of file list only)
http://freezone.darksoft.co.nz
http://home.att.net/~chuckr30/index.html (zip file of file list only)
http://chuckr.bravepages.com