G
C
CJT
ghjtfd said:
I'll never buy another IBM drive.
R
Rod Speed
CJT said:
Bet that news will have the Hitachi suits pouring from
their windows like lemmings as soon as they find out |-)
J
joe smith
I'll never buy another IBM drive.
Add me to the list.
Add me to the list.
W
We Live For The One We Die For The One
IBM dont make hard drives ?
E
Eric Gisin
Right, boy wonder. They make business machines.
T
Timothy Daniels
Doesn't IBM still make hard drives for its mainframes?
Or was that sold to Hitachi, too?
*TimDaniels*
Or was that sold to Hitachi, too?
*TimDaniels*
E
Ernie Leimkuhler
Timothy Daniels said:
Hitachi got the whole works, top to bottom.
Everybody bitches about the Deskstars being crappy, but it's the
Ultrastars that were really well made.
I have used them for years and they rock.
I would trust Ultrastars over any other make of SCSI drive.
Of course for you IDE nuts, well have fun.
Why anybody would even want a 400 GB drive baffles me.
Defragging the damn thing would take a week.
Just scanning it for routine maintenance would take hours.
J
J. Clarke
Ernie said:
No they don't. A few disgruntled users bitch about it. Personally I've
never had a problem with a Deskstar that I wasn't able to trace to a power
or ventilation problem or damage due to rough handling and so I tend to
laugh at the bitchers.
Because he has 400 GB of data to store? That's easy to do with HDTV.
So change your definition of "routine maintenance".
W
We Live For The One We Die For The One
You have heard of partitions have you :0
R
Rod Speed
Ernie Leimkuhler said:
Its more complicated than that. IBM still owns part of that operation.
Pity about the price.
Your problem.
Some of us have a lot to store.
Depends on what its used for. Wont necessarily get that fragged.
So ?
O
Odie
J. Clarke said:
I receive as many Deskstar drives as Fujitsus for data recovery.
Granted, IBM sold a heck of a lot more Deskstars than Fujitsu and their
MPG range, but the IBM Deskstar is in my mind a dangerous drive for data
storage of any kind.
Odie
--
RetroData
The Data Recovery Experts
Efficient, effective and experienced.
www.retrodata.co.uk
E
Ernie Leimkuhler
Rod Speed said:
At $1/GB they cost about the same as high end IDE drives.
I can buy 50GB or 36GB 10,000RPM SCA LVD drives for $1/GB.
They run fast and quiet.
I would rather have multiple drives in an array than 1 giant drive, if
something goes down.
Compaq Proliant Ultra-3-Wide drive arrays are cheap and reliable, and
run fine on any machine.
I am running several of them on Macs.
The drive trays are the only tough bit to find.
Passive file storage I can see wouldn't frag much.
So I guess if you are just storing lots of movies in digital form, then
the giant drives would be fine.
I wonder why anybody would be storing lots of large MPEG files.........?
F
Fetch, Rover, Fetch
Ernie said:
depending on capacity - scsi drives are varying from about $1/gig (7200
rpm) - $2/gig (or more).
with current applications, OSes, and storage requirements a 36 gig drive
has a very short useful life (before it is filled)
larger capacity SCSI drives - those nearing IDE drive capacities - are
$2/gig or more
a 250gig 7200rpm ide disk is $165, or about $0.66/gig.
250gig SCSI storage (at 36gig/disk) would cost at least $250 + require
an enclosure to support 7 disks
I agree - but would rather have storage capacity that is needed for
todays apps not 1970's apps.
an 8 disk FW enclosure costs <$400, delivers up to 100MegaByte/sec data
throughput, and using the drives mentioned in this thread - have a
native capacity of 3.2 TERABytes.
Firewire is at least as stable as SCSI, is hot swapable, and compaed to
SCSI, infinitely expandable.
SCSI supports 7 items/channel - Firewire supports 67 (as I recall)
So - for complete rediculousness - you could have 67 * 3.2 Terabytes =
214.4 TERABYTES of native storage capacity -
nothing SCSI is simple - there are always issues with IDs, and termination.
Additionally - SCSI *CARDS* especially Adaptec, are not as stable as
they should be under OS 10.
look around -
a video DVD holds 9gig - how many gigs are needed before cuts, and
retakes etc, to make a completed DVD movie??
Many people have their own DV cameras now and are attempting to make
their own movies.
MP3s, ACC, and many other applications create *HUGE* files.
Why would you NEED to defrag - or are you not aware that OSX.3 does this
in the background?
what kind of "scanning fo routine maintenance do you do??"
repair permissions, check the directories
J
J. Clarke
Ernie said:
They do? Tell me how to attach one to a Tivo. You _did_ say "any machine".
And how does your wife feel about three drive arrays in the living room
under the TV?
And where can you get Compaq Proliant Ultra-3-wide drive arrays with 400 gig
of drives in them for the 50 bucks that that 400 gig drive is going to be
selling for new in two years just before it drops out of the bottom of the
market?
Because he feels like it? My Tivo has over 200 gig of video stored at the
moment, most of which it decided to store of its own accord. That Tivo is
standard definition--the same shows recorded in high definition would take
several times that amount of storage.
R
Rod Speed
Thats a silly price now.
The price of Raptors is stupid too.
Like I said, pity about the price for such small drives.
You did notice what was being discussed was a 400GB drive ?
They'd want to for that price.
Sure, but even mirrored 400GB drives are
a lot better value than what you quoted.
Like hell they're cheap.
Pity about the price.
Your problem.
The problem is the lousy value.
Dont need to be passive to not get fragged much.
Corse they would, and for lots of digital photos etc too.
Presumably someone using lots of those.
C
chrisv
J. Clarke said:
According to Hughes and Tivo, about 8 times as much.
http://tiger.orbitsat.com/product.asp?pid=HD-DVR250T&subM=TiVo
J
J. Clarke
You might want to familiarize yourself with something called a "RAID".
Uh huh. Benchmarks please. I find it interesting that you believe that
someone can get all of the functionality of an LSI Logic or 3Ware RAID
controller, plus a FireWire bridge, plus a power supply, plus a box,
together for a retail price lower than that that LSI Logic or 3Ware charge
for the controller alone.
(a) your information about SCSI is badly out of date--wide SCSI supports 16
devices per channel.
(b) You can buy drives with IDE, SATA, SCSI, or Fibre Channel interfaces
commercially. The only way you can connect a drive via FireWire is to
obtain an IDE, SATA, SCSI, or Fibre Channel drive and attach a FireWire
bridge. May as well use USB 2 or Ethernet. Same difference in
functionality.
You've obviously never used SCA drives in a hot-swap cage. You just plug
the drive in and it works. When it dies you unplug it and plug in another
one. No "issues with IDs, and termination".
In fact I'm starting to suspect that you've never used SCSI at all.
Then OS 10 sucks and I'm glad I don't use Apple. These problems do not
exist with BSD that Steve Jobs hasn't had a go at. But attaching via
Firewire just moves the "SCSI *CARD*" from one end of the Firewire cable to
the other.
Typically about 18. But movies are not generally made using one desktop
computer--it would take an eternity to do that.
Uh, people have been making their own movies since the '50s at least. One
doesn't need a computer to make a movie, let alone a 400 gig drive.
For certain very small values of "huge".
Why would you want to? Maybe if it didn't have unnecessary background
processes running it wouldn't have the instability you mention earlier.
Was thinking about getting a Mac the other day--there's one particular
application that looks very nice and is cheap. But you just talked me out
of it--thanks.
Inspect for file system damage, bad sectors, and so on. Plus repairing
whatever the background defragmenter trashed.
F
Fetch, Rover, Fetch
First of - I *know* - Don't feed the trolls -, but I am sorry I can not
help myself here...
So - onward -
alternatively Redundant Array of Independent (updated meaning) Drives
basically a bunch of small(er) drives bundled together to create a
larger drive, depending on the specifics of the implementation, this can
include parity/recovery data to allow the failure of one or more drives
in the array. The parity space, if allocated, is unusable storage space
for normal storage tasks, and is a minimum of one disk's capacity.
That said - an array of 7 36gig scsi drives (level zero) - gives
(roughly) the same capacity as 1 250gig ide drive.
ignoring the cost of scsi card(s), and the enclosure(s).
The cost of the drives alone is approx $245. (www.pricewatch.com, lowest
listed price) 7 * 35 = $245 + shipping.
A single 250gig ide drive is $165 + shipping. No additional card(s), no
additional enclosure(s).
Cost per gig goes to IDE
$1/gig scsi vs $0.66 IDE
++ scsi has additional costs IDE does not (card(s) and enclosure(s))
Just ordered one, Firewire, 800 (that is 800Mb/s) 8 drive enclosure $382
http://www.macgurus.com/productpages/firewire/burlyfwenclosure.php
just as a point 800Mb/s - ignoring overhead - is 100MegaBytes/sec
assuming that hitachi holds with a cost = to the scsi drive pricing you
mentioned ($1/gig, which is 50% higher than current IDE pricing per gig)
that would put the price of the drive at $400.
RAID enclosure - I have *at all times* used the word 'enclosure', and
never 'RAID drive', 'RAID enclosure'. or other specific or implications
of RAID. I have generally defined RAID (above).
I do know that it is possible to get a 4 drive firewire hardware RAID
drive (empty) for about $1500.
The person i spoke with at Macgurus (above) mentioned that he was in the
process of testing a $1000 4 drive hardware RAID drive, but that it was
not yet available on their site.
even so - to support the 67 devices firewire does would require 4 scsi
cards.
and you STILL have to deal with device IDs, and termination (your points
below not withstanding).
I do not follow this line of discussion.
IDE is less expensive, in any way you measure.
as someone else pointed out - this is NOT true.
a) they will not 'run fine' on any Mac, or PC which is not equipped with
a scsi card. This is currently about 98% of all computers sold.
(as a note - ALL Macs, and many Pcs come with firewire)
b) they will not work on Tivo's - one of the current massive file
generating systems.
c) they will not work on ANY game box, such as X-Box, PS2, etc.
-- please note tis comment for later reference
no I have never used this specific model/setup of device.
From what I can gather, this is an enclosure for holding 2 or more
drives, and therefore qualifies as a single device.
16 devices requires 16 IDs, scsi does not do auto ID, therefore jumper
settings, or other switches to set the device IDs are required.
ex: 16 SCA drive enclosures, on one SCSI chain, each require 1 ID, so
each enclosure must have some method for setting the ID, probably a switch.
ALL scsi chains *MUST* be terminated, *ONCE*. So, you again have to
look/screw with which devices carry their own termination, vs those that
do not carry any termination.
Again, the above mentioned SCA enclosure must be terminated, either as
part of the case, or with a terminator placed on one of the scsi ports
on the case.
If each device has it's own termination, then the termination must be
OFF on 15 devices, and on ONLY on the last device in the chain.
Any other configuration will result in unstable, or non-functioning scsi
chain.
Sorry - you can not blame Apple, for the failure of device
manufactures to provide the needed drivers.
this statement make no sense.
iDVD, Final Cut Pro, and other software to create, edit and publish
their own movies.
Sure I can go get an 8mm home movie camera and try to find film to make
a movie. but it is going to suck - even if I am Stanley Kubrick.
If I want to be able to edit the video, to insert effects, or over dub
sound. I need either a multi million dollar studio or a computer.
get with the program! - go see Shrek, or Shrek2 when it comes out.
Create that movie (or any part of it) without a computer.
what I really should have said was:
MP3s, ACC, and many other applications create **HUGE** collections of
files which themselves require large storage capacities.
Hell, the top end iPod comes with a drive capacity that exceeds the scsi
drives you are talking about, the claim is 10,000 songs on a 40gig
drive. Let me tell you from personal experience, that is VERY
optimistic. It is closer to 5,000 in real life, and that (30gig in my
case) is insufficient to hold all the MP3s I have moved from my CD
collection to disk.
again, maybe a poor choice of wording. see this article:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=25668
for a better explanation of what Apple is doing to reduce/eliminate disk
fragmentation.
the instability I mentioned was with scsi card(s) and has much more to
do with the card vendors and their software than the operating system.
especially since above you specifically mention that you *already have*
Mac(s), or was that lie?
Most drive controllers are "smart" (the drive manufacturer's name for
the technology). That is the controller watches the drive, an reports
bad sectors and in some (most?) instances can map the sector(s) out on
the fly - without outside interference.
Ask the techs at Drive Savers, or any other drive recovery facility what
the number one cause of drive failure and/or lost data is, outside of
stupidity (erasing the drive/file). The answer is NOT bad media, or bad
sectors, or corrupted directory structures, it is *HEAT*.
And 10,000 rpm drives generate a *LOT* of heat.
Additionally - *if* you are really running RAID drives. This is NOT an
issue as all of this, directories and fragmentation are handled by the
RAID controller.
plus to repair what ever damage Norton utilities (or whatever other
third party disk utility you use) has done to the drive when I used it
to defragment the drive.
help myself here...
So - onward -
RAID - Redundant Array of Inexpensive (original meaning) Drives,J. Clarke said:
alternatively Redundant Array of Independent (updated meaning) Drives
basically a bunch of small(er) drives bundled together to create a
larger drive, depending on the specifics of the implementation, this can
include parity/recovery data to allow the failure of one or more drives
in the array. The parity space, if allocated, is unusable storage space
for normal storage tasks, and is a minimum of one disk's capacity.
That said - an array of 7 36gig scsi drives (level zero) - gives
(roughly) the same capacity as 1 250gig ide drive.
ignoring the cost of scsi card(s), and the enclosure(s).
The cost of the drives alone is approx $245. (www.pricewatch.com, lowest
listed price) 7 * 35 = $245 + shipping.
A single 250gig ide drive is $165 + shipping. No additional card(s), no
additional enclosure(s).
Cost per gig goes to IDE
$1/gig scsi vs $0.66 IDE
++ scsi has additional costs IDE does not (card(s) and enclosure(s))
Just ordered one, Firewire, 800 (that is 800Mb/s) 8 drive enclosure $382
http://www.macgurus.com/productpages/firewire/burlyfwenclosure.php
just as a point 800Mb/s - ignoring overhead - is 100MegaBytes/sec
assuming that hitachi holds with a cost = to the scsi drive pricing you
mentioned ($1/gig, which is 50% higher than current IDE pricing per gig)
that would put the price of the drive at $400.
no, no, no, in my previous post *I* never said that the enclosure was a
RAID enclosure - I have *at all times* used the word 'enclosure', and
never 'RAID drive', 'RAID enclosure'. or other specific or implications
of RAID. I have generally defined RAID (above).
I do know that it is possible to get a 4 drive firewire hardware RAID
drive (empty) for about $1500.
The person i spoke with at Macgurus (above) mentioned that he was in the
process of testing a $1000 4 drive hardware RAID drive, but that it was
not yet available on their site.
even so - to support the 67 devices firewire does would require 4 scsi
cards.
and you STILL have to deal with device IDs, and termination (your points
below not withstanding).
I do not follow this line of discussion.
IDE is less expensive, in any way you measure.
as someone else pointed out - this is NOT true.
a) they will not 'run fine' on any Mac, or PC which is not equipped with
a scsi card. This is currently about 98% of all computers sold.
(as a note - ALL Macs, and many Pcs come with firewire)
b) they will not work on Tivo's - one of the current massive file
generating systems.
c) they will not work on ANY game box, such as X-Box, PS2, etc.
-- please note tis comment for later reference
no I have never used this specific model/setup of device.
From what I can gather, this is an enclosure for holding 2 or more
drives, and therefore qualifies as a single device.
16 devices requires 16 IDs, scsi does not do auto ID, therefore jumper
settings, or other switches to set the device IDs are required.
ex: 16 SCA drive enclosures, on one SCSI chain, each require 1 ID, so
each enclosure must have some method for setting the ID, probably a switch.
ALL scsi chains *MUST* be terminated, *ONCE*. So, you again have to
look/screw with which devices carry their own termination, vs those that
do not carry any termination.
Again, the above mentioned SCA enclosure must be terminated, either as
part of the case, or with a terminator placed on one of the scsi ports
on the case.
If each device has it's own termination, then the termination must be
OFF on 15 devices, and on ONLY on the last device in the chain.
Any other configuration will result in unstable, or non-functioning scsi
chain.
Sorry - you can not blame Apple, for the failure of device
manufactures to provide the needed drivers.
of >the Firewire cable to the other.
this statement make no sense.
really - I suggest that you tell that to the many people who use iMovie,
iDVD, Final Cut Pro, and other software to create, edit and publish
their own movies.
there you are both right and wrong.
Sure I can go get an 8mm home movie camera and try to find film to make
a movie. but it is going to suck - even if I am Stanley Kubrick.
If I want to be able to edit the video, to insert effects, or over dub
sound. I need either a multi million dollar studio or a computer.
get with the program! - go see Shrek, or Shrek2 when it comes out.
Create that movie (or any part of it) without a computer.
Ok - I over stated, an MP3 or ACC is somewhere in the 3 - 20 meg range
what I really should have said was:
MP3s, ACC, and many other applications create **HUGE** collections of
files which themselves require large storage capacities.
Hell, the top end iPod comes with a drive capacity that exceeds the scsi
drives you are talking about, the claim is 10,000 songs on a 40gig
drive. Let me tell you from personal experience, that is VERY
optimistic. It is closer to 5,000 in real life, and that (30gig in my
case) is insufficient to hold all the MP3s I have moved from my CD
collection to disk.
again, maybe a poor choice of wording. see this article:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=25668
for a better explanation of what Apple is doing to reduce/eliminate disk
fragmentation.
the instability I mentioned was with scsi card(s) and has much more to
do with the card vendors and their software than the operating system.
well ---- if this is not a trollish thing to say....
especially since above you specifically mention that you *already have*
Mac(s), or was that lie?
what part of 'check directories' did you not understand?
again, you need to look at what drive controllers do now.
Most drive controllers are "smart" (the drive manufacturer's name for
the technology). That is the controller watches the drive, an reports
bad sectors and in some (most?) instances can map the sector(s) out on
the fly - without outside interference.
Ask the techs at Drive Savers, or any other drive recovery facility what
the number one cause of drive failure and/or lost data is, outside of
stupidity (erasing the drive/file). The answer is NOT bad media, or bad
sectors, or corrupted directory structures, it is *HEAT*.
And 10,000 rpm drives generate a *LOT* of heat.
Additionally - *if* you are really running RAID drives. This is NOT an
issue as all of this, directories and fragmentation are handled by the
RAID controller.
you should really re-phrase this statement to read:
plus to repair what ever damage Norton utilities (or whatever other
third party disk utility you use) has done to the drive when I used it
to defragment the drive.
J
J. Clarke
I'm not even going to _try_ to respond to the mess below.
Rover, you are responding to at least two different people who are arguing
different sides of the issue--please learn to watch your attributions.
However you have some serious misconceptions about Macs, about PCs, about
Firewire, about SCSI, and much else.
Answer me one question. Where does one buy the 64 Firewire drives that you
claim can be attached to a Firewire port?
Rover, you are responding to at least two different people who are arguing
different sides of the issue--please learn to watch your attributions.
However you have some serious misconceptions about Macs, about PCs, about
Firewire, about SCSI, and much else.
Answer me one question. Where does one buy the 64 Firewire drives that you
claim can be attached to a Firewire port?