Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

[Paul Rubin]

Just a note for all others here: A complete and detailed explanation
why w_tom does not have a clue (despite sounding to some like he has)

Eh well, he's gotten less persuasive in later posts. I would still
look at that p/s output with a scope if I were trying to diagnose this
problem.

 

[McSpreader]

Eh well, he's gotten less persuasive in later posts. I would
still look at that p/s output with a scope if I were trying to
diagnose this problem.

Precisely. If you measure the voltage using a DC voltmeter and get a
reading outside the spec range, it confirms that the PSU is faulty.
However, a reading within the spec range doesn't confirm the PSU is
fault-free, because excessive ripple might be present - which you can
only check with the aid of other instruments, such as a 'scope.

w_tom would have us believe one can deduce that a PSU is faulty from
just one DC voltmeter reading that is within the spec range.

 

[Arno Wagner]

Precisely. If you measure the voltage using a DC voltmeter and get a
reading outside the spec range, it confirms that the PSU is faulty.
However, a reading within the spec range doesn't confirm the PSU is
fault-free, because excessive ripple might be present - which you can
only check with the aid of other instruments, such as a 'scope.
Exactly.

w_tom would have us believe one can deduce that a PSU is faulty from
just one DC voltmeter reading that is within the spec range.

Well, I hope by now nobody is willing to believe that...

Arno

 

[Rod Speed]

Eh well, he's gotten less persuasive in later posts.

He never was persuasive to anyone who understands the basics.

I would still look at that p/s output with a scope if I were trying to diagnose this problem.

Separate matter entirely to his stupid pig ignorant claim about what the
rails must read with a 3.5 digit multimeter for the power supply to be good.
That has always been, and always will be, pure pig ignorant drivel.

He cant even manage to grasp that the multimeter will measure the
AVERAGE rail voltage and even if the ripple is out of spec, you wont
get the readings he proclaimed will indicate a bad power supply.

He hasnt actually got a ****ing clue about how
multimeters work, or anything else at all, either.

 

[w_tom]

Eh well, he's gotten less persuasive in later posts. I would still
look at that p/s output with a scope if I were trying to diagnose this
problem.

The explanation was intentionally dumbed down for nay-sayers who don't
even understand a relationship between that higher 5 volts and a
failing 12 volts; and who only want to argue anyway. As you may have
noticed, no sense trying to explain, for example, by that 5 volts
relates to 12 volts. It is too complex. They don't want to understand
anyway. Shotgunners already consider themselves experts - need not try
to learn something new.

Previously explained (and completely misunderstood by shotgunning
nay-sayers) is an associated increase in ripple voltage that typically
occurs as an overloaded or failing supply outputs 11.65 volts. A
trivial but completely unacceptable 300 millivolts ripple means meter
reads 11.65 volts, as voltage to computer repeatedly drops to 11.35
volts - failure. More confusing for shotgunners, this same power
supply would 'work just fine' in another system. Furthermore is how
power supplies create 5 volts and why that high 5 volts also indicates
same problem. Do I explain why to them? No. How a meter works -
simpler stuff - is too complex.

Completely ignored was a second fact - 5.12 volts. They did not
understand the significance of that number either. It requires some
basic electrical knowledge. And finally a last factor - remove two or
more disk drives and measure that voltage. Just another paragraph they
ignored so as to argue. Therefore future posts must be dumbed down -
what you might call less persuasive. I am not being persuasive for
them. They already have that masters in EE and multiple decades of
experience.

How to explain to 'computer experts' who only known how to shotgun?
Who foolishly assume 11.5 volts on a meter means voltage is above 11.4
volts? And then say meters could not find this problem? Of course the
meter did not work for them. They did not learn how electricity works
and did not learn how meters work. These posts are for the benefit of
others who would otherwise accept outright lies from shotgunning
'computer experts'.

Anything measuring below 11.7 volts is too low. If below 11.7,
4.87, or 3.23, then a power supply is probably failing. That explains
all symptoms that the Original Poster was observing. (Notice our
'computer experts' had no advice for the OP.) That is really all
'computer experts' need know since they will foolishly recommend
shotgunning anyway.

Shotgunning in any industry is how to identify the worst techs who
also like to argue rather than learn better techniques. A meter
reading below 3.23, 4.87, or 11.7 means problems - explains
intermittent failures. Using a scope would be even better. But
shotgunning computer experts usually don't know how to use a scope.
The OP is not going to buy a scope to solve his disk drive problem.
Numbers already from his $20 meter ( and the procedure that follows)
identified reasons for his disk drive failures. His number - 11.65 -
says failure. Says voltage is dipping below 11.4. But this is too
complex for those who only know by shotgunning; who don't use a meter;
who would never understand how to use a scope..

 

[Jesco Lincke]

I have an older PC (2.26 ghz 1gb ram)...here is what happened.

I bought a new Seagate 400gb HD...unplugged my 120 and 80 GB Maxtors,
plugged in the seagate, installed windows Vista (from msdn), was trying
to get my Radeon card to work with windows aero. Shut down pulled out
all the pci cards to see if that would help...no help, shut down
plugged them back in booted and the drive started clicking, then a
screech, i shut down, reboot and the drive was dead. I packaged the
new drive up to send back, plugged in the old drives and one of them
started clicking...i noticed that drive did not appear in windows, i
immediately shut down and im afraid to turn the computer back on. What
could be frying my hard drives? I had an external Maxtor USB 300 gb
drive die 4 months ago which i presume is unrelated...in my whole life
before this ive never had a hard drive go bad.

Thanks.

Other cards:
SB Audigy
UAD 1 DSP Processor
Firewire card
Radeon XT800 (agp)
USB 2 (which recently only was working at USB 1.1)

Maybe we could stop the ranting and return to the OP's problem. Apart
from "Your PSU'S broken - buy a new one" - which has been intensely
contested - there has been no useful help so far.

The deep-tech-wisdom being randomly thrown about (and which ist totally
beyond me, I'm not ashamed to admit) will very likely not help the OP
solving the original problem. My guess ist that the replacement PSU is
already in place anyway and thus this discussion is quite obsolete in
regard to the OP's query.

I'm very much avoiding taking sides here since I can't judge the content
anyway. But the style and tone some posters are using does not match
their claim for credibility.

To sum it up - I'm out. Pity, I was actually starting to learn a wee bit
from some of the posts.

 

[Arno Wagner]

Go away w_tom, you are not welcome here.

Arno

The explanation was intentionally dumbed down for nay-sayers who don't
even understand a relationship between that higher 5 volts and a
failing 12 volts; and who only want to argue anyway. As you may have
noticed, no sense trying to explain, for example, by that 5 volts
relates to 12 volts. It is too complex. They don't want to understand
anyway. Shotgunners already consider themselves experts - need not try
to learn something new.

Previously explained (and completely misunderstood by shotgunning
nay-sayers) is an associated increase in ripple voltage that typically
occurs as an overloaded or failing supply outputs 11.65 volts. A
trivial but completely unacceptable 300 millivolts ripple means meter
reads 11.65 volts, as voltage to computer repeatedly drops to 11.35
volts - failure. More confusing for shotgunners, this same power
supply would 'work just fine' in another system. Furthermore is how
power supplies create 5 volts and why that high 5 volts also indicates
same problem. Do I explain why to them? No. How a meter works -
simpler stuff - is too complex.

Completely ignored was a second fact - 5.12 volts. They did not
understand the significance of that number either. It requires some
basic electrical knowledge. And finally a last factor - remove two or
more disk drives and measure that voltage. Just another paragraph they
ignored so as to argue. Therefore future posts must be dumbed down -
what you might call less persuasive. I am not being persuasive for
them. They already have that masters in EE and multiple decades of
experience.

How to explain to 'computer experts' who only known how to shotgun?
Who foolishly assume 11.5 volts on a meter means voltage is above 11.4
volts? And then say meters could not find this problem? Of course the
meter did not work for them. They did not learn how electricity works
and did not learn how meters work. These posts are for the benefit of
others who would otherwise accept outright lies from shotgunning
'computer experts'.

 

[Arno Wagner]

Maybe we could stop the ranting and return to the OP's problem. Apart
from "Your PSU'S broken - buy a new one" - which has been intensely
contested - there has been no useful help so far.

The deep-tech-wisdom being randomly thrown about (and which ist totally
beyond me, I'm not ashamed to admit) will very likely not help the OP
solving the original problem. My guess ist that the replacement PSU is
already in place anyway and thus this discussion is quite obsolete in
regard to the OP's query.

I'm very much avoiding taking sides here since I can't judge the content
anyway. But the style and tone some posters are using does not match
their claim for credibility.

To sum it up - I'm out. Pity, I was actually starting to learn a wee bit
from some of the posts.

Pity, yes. There was actually only one person trying to sabotage the
discussion in order to present himself as the final expert, better and
more compentent than all other. Unfortunately he did so in a matter
that really made all people that understand what his (wrong) claims
were, quite anoyed. Yes, I lost my cool as well and I apologize for it
to all, except w_tom. You might notice that I posted quite a few
detailed and technical refutations of his claim, untill his strategy
finally got to me. You might also notice that he did not dispute any
of the refutations, but just kept iterating his claim and stared to
claim all other did not have experience and were plain dumb. Such a
person can get to you. Sorry again.

As to the OPs [problem, tying things with a different PSU is the
cheapest way. The second best wpuld be to actually make a ripple
measurement, but that takes an oscilloscope and the knowlede on how to
interpret the results. The deductions w_tom made are not valid since
based on wrong facts and wrong deduction steps (allowed ripple, ripple
effects, 12V tolerance, way a PC PSU works and others). While his
deduced problem may manifests itself as what the OP saw, it can
also be a number of other things that would look like this, including
a shoddily designed (but still working) PSU.

Arno

 

[Rod Speed]

Paul Rubin wrote

The explanation was intentionally dumbed down for nay-sayers who don't even
understand a relationship between that higher 5 volts and a failing 12 volts;

There never ever was any 'failing 12 volts'

You dont even know that those two rails arent independantly regulated.

and who only want to argue anyway. As you may have
noticed, no sense trying to explain, for example, by that
5 volts relates to 12 volts. It is too complex.

Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

They don't want to understand anyway. Shotgunners already
consider themselves experts - need not try to learn something new.

You cant even manage to work out how a basic multimeter works.

Previously explained (and completely misunderstood by shotgunning
nay-sayers) is an associated increase in ripple voltage that typically
occurs as an overloaded or failing supply outputs 11.65 volts.

Pity about your utterly mindless drivel about what the rails
must read with a multimeter for the power supply to be good.

A trivial but completely unacceptable 300 millivolts ripple
means meter reads 11.65 volts, as voltage to computer
repeatedly drops to 11.35 volts - failure.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you cant
even manage to read and comprehend the ATX specs.

AND you have just plucked that 300mV out of your arse.
It hasnt even been measured.

AND hard drives dont give a damn about a ripple level like that,
BECAUSE THAT RAIL DRIVES THE ROTATION MOTOR.

More confusing for shotgunners, this same power supply would
'work just fine' in another system. Furthermore is how power
supplies create 5 volts and why that high 5 volts also indicates
same problem.

Pig ignorant lie.

Do I explain why to them? No. How a
meter works - simpler stuff - is too complex.

You clearly havent actually got a ****ing clue about how a multimeter works.

Completely ignored was a second fact - 5.12 volts.
They did not understand the significance of that number
either. It requires some basic electrical knowledge.

Which you clearly aint got. You're so stupid that you havent managed
to grasp that its perfectly possible for a power supply to be low on
the 12V rail and high on the 5V rail without having any fault what so ever.

And finally a last factor - remove two or more disk drives and measure
that voltage. Just another paragraph they ignored so as to argue.

Corse you never ever do anything like that yourself, eh, liar ?

Therefore future posts must be dumbed down - what you might
call less persuasive. I am not being persuasive for them. They
already have that masters in EE and multiple decades of experience.

How to explain to 'computer experts' who only known how to shotgun?

How odd that there aint a single one of those who have commented ?

Who foolishly assume 11.5 volts on a meter means voltage is above 11.4 volts?

No assumption what so ever in what the ATX specs say.

And then say meters could not find this problem? Of course
the meter did not work for them. They did not learn how
electricity works and did not learn how meters work.

You clearly never have, you're actually stupid enough to have
listed those numbers you plucked out of your arse on what the
meter must read for the power supply to be good.

These posts are for the benefit of others who would otherwise
accept outright lies from shotgunning 'computer experts'.

How odd that every single individual who has commented has rubbed
YOUR nose in the FACT that you dont actually have a ****ing clue.

<reams of your repetitive pig ignorant drivel flushed where it belongs>

You can repeat this mindless shit till the cows come
home if you like, changes absolutely nothing at all.

 

[Aidan Karley]

w_tom would have us believe one can deduce that a PSU is faulty from
just one DC voltmeter reading that is within the spec range.

This w_tom person (who gets hit by one of my general purpose
twit-filters) may well be in PSU sales, in which case the presence of a
PSU in your machine without a corresponding wad of money in his pocket
is self-evidently faulty.

 

[chrisv]

In a sense, this is a gem. w_tom took the word RMS from my posting
without the slightest understanding what it means. An RMS meter
will not help in the least to determine ripple voltage. The only
true thing here is that they are expensive...

I don't think the "true RMS" feature itself is all that expensive to
implement... It just tends to be something that is built-into
industrial-quality benchtop meters, while being left out of most
hand-held meters.

 

[Arno Wagner]

Arno Wagner wrote:

I don't think the "true RMS" feature itself is all that expensive to
implement... It just tends to be something that is built-into
industrial-quality benchtop meters, while being left out of most
hand-held meters.

Well, yes. To a degree. Typical RMS meters are usable up to
500Hz or 1kHz or the like. There are also those that can go far
higher. These are usually integrated into high-speed digital storage
oscilloscopes and then it gest really expensive....

But basically a slow RMS meter needs a multiplier and some
other cheap circuitry. Usable multipliers start around somathing
like 20USD/EUR for the chip, so the meter cannot be in the
"really cheap" class. ;-)

Arno

 

[Rod Speed]

McSpreader wrote

This w_tom person (who gets hit by one of my general
purpose twit-filters) may well be in PSU sales,

Nope, he's never spruiked particular power supplys.

He's just another pig ignorant net loon who appears to search out
posts that mention his obsessions, power supplys and lightning etc.

in which case the presence of a PSU in your machine without a
corresponding wad of money in his pocket is self-evidently faulty.

Nar, its nothing like that. He isnt involved in selling anything.
No retail operation would actually be that stupid, to employ him.

 

[w_tom]

Arno has just posted again - 1) no technical facts and 2) loutishly
to mask his lack of technical knowledge. The original poster asked
about disk drive problems. Arno never once bothered to post a useful
reply. Since he does not understand why 11.65 volts suggests a
problem, now he posts to mask technical incompetence.

Provided by the original poster were voltage numbers that suggest
reasons for disk drive problems. 11.65 on a meter suggest voltages
were dropping below 11.4. Arno could not understand this. 5 volts
rising higher to 5.12 also suggests this same problem. Again Arno
could not understand this. Meter reading should be repeated with
drives removed. Drives should be tested with manufacturer
comprehensive diagnostic. Again, too complex to Arno who is an expert
because he shotguns - does not even know how a meter works - could not
address the OPs problem.

Sorry Arno. As long as you will not learn, others will correct your
shotgun expertise. Arno, start by learning how electricity works.
Then you might post a technical reply instead of posting rudely.

 

[Mike Tomlinson]

Nar, its nothing like that. He isnt involved in selling anything.
No retail operation would actually be that stupid, to employ him.

He's been challenged on several occasions to declare his interest in
surge protection and/or power supplies and each time avoids the question
with his usual dishonest top-posting.

Anyone unaware of w_tom's history: a google groups search on his
activities, searching for w_tom and w_tom1, will prove entertaining as
it'll demonstrate the extent of his imbecility.

 

[Paul Rubin]

But basically a slow RMS meter needs a multiplier and some
other cheap circuitry. Usable multipliers start around somathing
like 20USD/EUR for the chip, so the meter cannot be in the
"really cheap" class. ;-)

Eh? Do you mean a digital multiplier? I'd expect this could be done
straightforwardly with some cheap analog op amps.

 

[Rod Speed]

He's been challenged on several occasions to declare his
interest in surge protection and/or power supplies and each
time avoids the question with his usual dishonest top-posting.

He avoids all questions, its just his style.

Its obvious in this latest pathetic excuse for a thread, he never
did say how he came up with those stupid numbers that he plucked
out of his arse with his claims about what the rails should read with
a 3.5 digit multimeter for the power supply to be working properly.

Its clear that he just mindlessly applied the ripple allowed
to the minimums specified in the ATX standard and made
a VERY spectacular fool of himself indeed. As always.

Anyone unaware of w_tom's history: a google groups search
on his activities, searching for w_tom and w_tom1, will prove
entertaining as it'll demonstrate the extent of his imbecility.

He's never said what the w stands for either. Bet its wanker.

 

[Rod Speed]

Arno has just posted again - 1) no technical facts

Just like you eh ? Funny that.

and 2) loutishly to mask his lack of technical knowledge.

Just like you eh ? Funny that.

The original poster asked about disk drive problems.
Arno never once bothered to post a useful reply.

He didnt need to, everyone was pointing out the
terminal stupidity of YOUR pig ignorant claims.

Since he does not understand why 11.65 volts suggests a problem,

No it doesnt.

now he posts to mask technical incompetence.

Just like you eh ? Funny that.

Provided by the original poster were voltage numbers
that suggest reasons for disk drive problems.

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

11.65 on a meter suggest voltages were dropping below 11.4.

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie. And the ATX specs say
nothing about the minimum allowed including ripple ANYWAY.

Arno could not understand this.

Nothing to 'understand'

5 volts rising higher to 5.12 also suggests this same problem.

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

Again Arno could not understand this.

Nothing to 'understand'

Meter reading should be repeated with drives removed.

Pointless when the rails are within spec AND THE SEAGATE
DOESNT EVEN WORK IN AN EXTERNAL CASE. THE PROBLEM
WITH THE SEAGATE HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH
THE PC POWER SUPPLY BECAUSE IT DOESNT EVEN WORK
IN AN EXTERNAL CASE WHICH HAS ITS OWN POWER SUPPLY.

Drives should be tested with manufacturer comprehensive diagnostic.

NOT EVEN POSSIBLE WHEN THE DRIVE ISNT VISIBLE TO THE DIAGNOSTIC.

Again, too complex to Arno who is an expert because he shotguns

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

- does not even know how a meter works -

You in spades.

could not address the OPs problem.

You in spades. You're so stupid that you cant even manage to
grasp that the seagate doesnt even work in an external case,
SO THE PROBLEM CANT BE THE POWER SUPPLY IN THE PC.

Sorry Arno. As long as you will not learn, others will correct your
shotgun expertise. Arno, start by learning how electricity works.
Then you might post a technical reply instead of posting rudely.

Fools no one, gutless.

 

[Arno Wagner]

Eh? Do you mean a digital multiplier? I'd expect this could be done
straightforwardly with some cheap analog op amps.

No, analog multiplier! Typical DMM A/D converters do something
like 3 conversions/second, which is too slow for RMS calculation.
The RMS calculation is done before, basically by multiplying
the signal with itself in the analog part of the DMM.

The slowness of the A/D converter is also due to its principle:
Basically a capacitor and timer to discharge is used. This gives
very precise measurements (0.1%, roughly 10 bit precision) with
cheap electronics, but is slow.

Arno

 

[Arno Wagner]

Too stupid to be be a marketing person or sales clerk? Do you
think that is possible?

He's been challenged on several occasions to declare his interest in
surge protection and/or power supplies and each time avoids the question
with his usual dishonest top-posting.

Well, he basically avoid anything that exposes him. And does not
answer to explanations why he is wrong. And re-iterates his original
statements. And calls everybody that challenges him incompetent
without giving any proof. Quite transparent....

Anyone unaware of w_tom's history: a google groups search on his
activities, searching for w_tom and w_tom1, will prove entertaining as
it'll demonstrate the extent of his imbecility.

No time now, but I think I will do this soon.

Arno