Great deal on Corsair RAM?

[Mark A]

As a system builder and retailer, I do not put Corsair memory in my
machines because I've had too many bad sticks from them. I've even
had Corsair memory that passes burn-in testing, then fail when the
system is fully operational.

We've switched to only using RAM that is certified and from the
primary manufacturers.

Current (06/24) wholesale prices on 1 gb of DDR400 is around $90 each
for certified sticks. A price of $64 indicates these are probably
non-passed (but useable) memory without any warranty. Non-passed
means greater than 1% (not sure of the value) of the memory is
defective. It will still register with full value and will usually
run, but you get spurious memory problems which tends to crash
programs.

You are better served spending a few extra dollars to get good memory.
Defective memory doesn't always surface until you are really stressing
the system.

Good luck!

Did you up the voltage in the bios for your Corsair memory to 2.75 volts?
Most DDR400 Corsair memory requires you to do that and it won't run
properly at the default 2.5 volts. For a system bios that only let you
choose from 2.6, 2.7, 2.8 etc, 2.7 seems to work fine.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Re: "Apparently Corsair is like HP -- they have better-than-average
technology"

Dead wrong; in fact, they have no technology at all. NONE. Zip. Zero.

Ask them how many fab plants (semiconductor chip manufacturing plants)
they have. The answer is ZERO. Because they don't make memory. AT
ALL. PERIOD. (neither does Kingston, Mushkin, Viking, OCZ, etc.).

These firms are, in some cases only marketing firms that buy memory from
real manufacturing firms and simply apply their packaging and labels.
In other cases, they do manufacture the modules by soldering chips to
the module boards, but that is all (and it's a near-zero technology
operation). The real manufacturers are Samsung, Hynix, Micron, Toshiba,
Elpida, Infineon (soon to undergo a spinoff and name change to
"Qimonda", which sounds more oriental than German) and a few others.

Don't confuse marketing firms with technology firms.

Interesting. Of course you are right, as documented by the fine print
on memory modules. But I assume they have some IP in a vault, or
something besides pure marketing hype to give them the reputation they
enjoy amongst sophisticated customers. Maybe they have better
quality-control processes so they don't send out as many funky sticks.

I bought Corsair "Value RAM" for my new system last winter, and it has
proven to be flawless. I picked up on this thread because I wouldn't
mind going from 1gb to 2gb and rolling the 512mb sticks to my
"second-best" box. But, the price before rebate is high, and, as I
said, I'm through playing rebate games. I have always gotten them as
promised, but only because I carefully follow a process that is
designed to be complicated enough to throw people off if they are in a
hurry or just not very good at reading directions.

To me, that tactic is demeaning and offensive. Life is complicated
enough as it is. I'm not going to deal with companies that throw out
unnecessary complications because someone in the marketing department
plugs response rates into a spreadsheet and decides they can bump
returns by a point or two at the expense of customers.

If this sounds negative and bitchy, I can express it just as easily in
positive terms. I value technology companies that make the process of
buying and using their products as easy as possible.

Charlie

 

[Bruin]

I do a huge number of rebates, several hundred per year (usually over 50
just from "Black Friday" alone), and I often have more than $1,000 in
outstanding rebates. I do them meticulously, I keep scrupulous records,
and I keep copies of everything, and spreadsheet to show the status. But I
do not use certified mail or anything like that to submit them (it just
costs too much). Even for Tiger Direct, which has a "rebate guarantee" IF
you use certified mail return receipt (which costs $5), I don't ... I just
drop them in a mailbox.

How much time do you spend on your rebate project?

Filling out the tiny forms, stuffing & addressing envelopes, cutting up
packaging, making copies (at work) of the whole freaking mess (a challenge
with long reciepts & forms), & finally mailing them takes quite a bit of
time. Then there is filing the copies, checking the files for overdue
rebates, SPREADSHEETS?

My free time is quite valuable to me. At least double my hourly average I
make on the job. How much money is actually saved when the time is
factored in?

More than 90% of the rebates are processed and received with no followup
or action on my part. A few (and I'd say it's less than 5 each year)
require followup but I get them. The only rebates that I've lost were two
from Tiger Direct, their rebate form requires a signature, I forgot to
sign it and they did not (at the time, last fall) allow "resubmissions"
(correction of submissions after-the-fact) (I've been told that this
policy has since changed).

Because of the huge number of rebate programs out there I am required to get
involved if I want to get a sale price. I have absolutely been the victim
of rebate fraud. Any time I get denied when I know (via my copies) that I
have sent it in correctly, it is fraud. Mail fraud, a felony, committed by
a large organization in a large scale, is racketeering. If our government
was worth a crap, our state department would crack down on these felonious
companies. 10% given your figures. Mine might be higher if I had the
time to keep spreadsheets. Whether I got the rebate in the end is beside
the point, if they denied a legitimate claim, its fraudgelent.

If the company files bankruptcy after you dropped the envelop in the mail,
bubeye money. I remember one case, a computer componant company actually
filed because of the "unexpected large amount of rebate claims"! WTF IS
THAT? Someone should have went to jail for that, a marketing manager would
be a good place to start.

IMO they should be outlawed unless they are instant. Tax on the lazy my
ass.

 

[DP]

Well, there are a myriad of reasons for doing rebates, like for a
temporary incentive vs 'lowering the price', targeting an area or a store
chain, and combining with other product incentives (buy one of these with
one of those and get...)

That assumes that the purpose of rebates really is to lower the price
temporarily for all of the reasons you say.
But my guess is that the real motivating factor is to trick you into
thinking you're getting a lower price, when actually the company knows via
research that the chances are you won't send in the rebate form. And/or that
if the company fails to send your rebate for whatever reason, the chances
are even slimmer that you will follow up.

but the one perhaps most relevant to your 'simply lowered the price of the
product' is the manufacturer can't control a dealer's pricing so the
incentive would be dependent on whether the dealer decided to, as the
saying goes, "pass the savings on to you"

The manufacturer controls the wholesale pricing. If the end of rebates means
wholesale prices will drop, that's at least a first step.
Hopefully competition in the marketplace will be the incentive for dealers
to drop their prices as well. And don't forget MSRP as well.
Manufacturers suggest a retail price, and sometimes even have that price
printed on the box. If the MSRP is lowered, the dealer has no choice but to
charge that price as the max. Only a fool would buy something from a store
where the MSRP is printed on the box but the store a sticker on it with a
price that's even higher.

 

[Jack F. Twist]

Interesting. Of course you are right, as documented by the fine print
on memory modules. But I assume they have some IP in a vault, or
something besides pure marketing hype to give them the reputation they
enjoy amongst sophisticated customers. Maybe they have better
quality-control processes so they don't send out as many funky sticks.

That's basically it. They source ICs from Samsung, Infineon
and a few other manufacturers, PCBs (best ones currently are
from BrainPower), solder, test and sort the modules.

 

[Barry Watzman]

You are being too cynical. Take the rebate offer more at face value, as
offered.

If you buy the product and submit the rebate following all of the
instructions, you will virtually always (far more than 90%, probably
more than 95% of the time) get the rebate as offered within 90 days
(even if it says "allow 4 to 8 weeks", 90 days is more typical). And
the instructions are almost always straightforward ... rebate form
completely filled out, ORIGINAL UPC label and original OR copy of
receipt for almost all rebates, and of course item bought and rebate
submitted within the dates for the offer.

Rebates simply allow the seller to get more total sales and revenue by
being able to price selectively .... to effectively have two different
prices on the same item in the same store at the same time: A higher
price for those will pay it and who don't care about the rebate, and a
lower price for those who are more price sensitive and who are willing
to give up about 20 to 30 minutes of their time to submit a rebate
"properly". They generally work to the benefit of all of the parties
involved, the consumer, the manufacturer and the retailer.

Of course some rebates are improperly submitted, and of course some are
lost or screwed up by the fulfillment house. But the number of rebate
offers that are fraudulent (where the rebate offer is not intended to be
fulfilled) and the number that are lost is small, it's a low single
digit percentage of all rebate offers.

 

[Percival P. Cassidy]

Best Buy has a reputation for fairnes and honesty? Is that why they
denied my rebate, even though they admitted that it was postmarked in
time and filled out correctly, because they had misprinted the date on
the rebate form? Except for one person, everybody I spoke with at
their rebate center, their national customer service center, and the
local store acted like a robot and said that they couldn't do anything.
Two people even said I had altered not only the copy of the rebate
form but also a second original cash register printout of the form. I
finally located a Best Buy manager who credited my Visa card
immediately, and he was very different from the other employees, an
actual human being who didn't belong to a fascist cult.

Maybe it's a local marketing experiment, but around here (W. Michigan)
BB has doing almost entirely *instant* rebates for a month or more now.

Perce

 

[Peter van der Goes]

On 06/24/06 09:56 pm larry moe 'n curly wrote:


Maybe it's a local marketing experiment, but around here (W. Michigan) BB
has doing almost entirely *instant* rebates for a month or more now.

Perce

I don't think so. They're doing the same thing here. I spoke with a
"manager" about the change, mentioning that I'm far more likely to purchase
an item with "instant rebate" than with mail-in. He said that was the
overwhelming sentiment they had been getting from customers.

 

[Barry Watzman]

That's fine and true, BUT ... for those of us who really do submit the
rebates (not that we like it either), you won't get as good a deal with
"instant rebates" as with mail-in rebates precisely becuase mail-in
rebates of often not "mailed in". [And I've never seen a significant
item that was "Free after [instant] rebate"]. Fact is, with mail-in
rebates, we often get MAJOR items ... LCD monitors, disk drives, memory
.... that are effectively "half off". An instant rebate is nothing but a
sale price, and sure, you can find things 10%, sometimes 20% off, but
rarely more. So mail-in rebates definitely have their place, because,
as I mentioned earlier, mail-in rebates are really a form of
differential pricing, charging different prices for the same thing
bought at the same place to different people. And I'm one of the people
who is willing to do the work to get the lower price.

 

[larry moe 'n curly]

On 24 Jun 2006 19:52:01 -0700, "larry moe 'n curly"


Not for over at least thrity years! Maine is abbreviated 'ME' and
Minnisota is abbreviated 'MN'

That's what I tried to tell the Best Buy bonehead, who, ironically, was
probably located in either Maine (ME) or Minnesota (MN).

Never trust a company whose phone is answered with a legal disclaimer,
as Best Buy's is.

Never trust a company that classifies certain people as "devil
customers", as Best Buy does.

Never trust a company whose chairman appears drunk on the cover of
Forbes magazine, as Best Buy's has.

 

[DP]

You are being too cynical. Take the rebate offer more at face value, as
offered.

Oh, that's right. We should always trust big business. They always act with
the highest of ethical motives.
I see you're also following the same debate in the Corsair memory thread.
I'm going to stick to this thread, but I think a lot of interesting things
are being said over there.
One thing to remember about rebates: Buying a $100 product with a $20 rebate
is NOT the same as buying that same product for $80 if you live in a
locality that has sales tax. The sales tax will be charged on that $100, not
on $80. So, right off the bat, you've lost some money.
Rebates remind me of the old Publisher's Clearing House mailings. I guess
they stopped doing this about 10 years ago, or else I stopped paying
attention.
You would get mail that said you could enter into their multi-million dollar
sweepstakes. If you bought a magazine sub, you'd be automatically entered.
If you wanted to enter without subscribing there were these forms you had to
fill out. The forms themselves didn't require writing a lot of information;
it was just that you pretty much had to read EVERY word of the several
pieces of paper sent to you to make sure you were fulfilling the conditions
of entering without buying.
I think a lot of people figured out it would just be easier to order one
magazine and be automatically entered than to read all the paperwork.
For me (and this only applies to me) I've found that when I have a rebate, I
put all the stuff aside so that I can do it when I have a lot of time and no
distractions so I can make sure I'mm filling out everything they want. And
then, of course, the stuff stays put aside and the rebate deadline runs out.
I'm not blaming the rebate companies for that. That's partly due to my
disorganized personality.
However, I do think that factors in to their thinking when they offer
rebates. They know that for one reason or another, the vast majority will
not file for the rebate.

Rebates simply allow the seller to get more total sales and revenue by
being able to price selectively .... to effectively have two different
prices on the same item in the same store at the same time: A higher
price for those will pay it and who don't care about the rebate, and a
lower price for those who are more price sensitive and who are willing to
give up about 20 to 30 minutes of their time to submit a rebate
"properly". They generally work to the benefit of all of the parties
involved, the consumer, the manufacturer and the retailer.

But the number of rebate offers that are fraudulent (where the rebate offer
is not intended to be fulfilled) and the number that are lost is small,
it's a low single digit percentage of all rebate offers.

How do you know this? Are you in the business?


-dp

 

[Mark A]

That's what I tried to tell the Best Buy bonehead, who, ironically, was
probably located in either Maine (ME) or Minnesota (MN).

Best Buy is headquartered in MN, but I don't know who processes their
rebates or where their rebate center is located.

 

[John Doe]

I think your premise is false, that consumers will pay more for a
product because it includes a mail-in rebate they aren't going to
take advantage of.


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Subject: Re: Rebates -- Best Buy rebate scam
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That's fine and true, BUT ... for those of us who really do submit the
rebates (not that we like it either), you won't get as good a deal with
"instant rebates" as with mail-in rebates precisely becuase mail-in
rebates of often not "mailed in". [And I've never seen a significant
item that was "Free after [instant] rebate"]. Fact is, with mail-in
rebates, we often get MAJOR items ... LCD monitors, disk drives, memory
.... that are effectively "half off". An instant rebate is nothing but a
sale price, and sure, you can find things 10%, sometimes 20% off, but
rarely more. So mail-in rebates definitely have their place, because,
as I mentioned earlier, mail-in rebates are really a form of
differential pricing, charging different prices for the same thing
bought at the same place to different people. And I'm one of the people
who is willing to do the work to get the lower price.

 

[tcsenter]

I do a huge number of rebates, several hundred per year (usually over 50
just from "Black Friday" alone), and I often have more than $1,000 in
outstanding rebates. I do them meticulously, I keep scrupulous records,
and I keep copies of everything, and spreadsheet to show the status.

Agreed! I recently documented on Anandtech Forums proof of 13
successful rebate submissions worth over $500 on products purchased
between August 2004 and April 2006 from/through Tiger Direct, a company
one cannot mention on various forums without someone crapping in a
thread about Tiger Direct ripping people off on rebates.

There are at least several older rebate submissions going back to 2000.
In all, I've NEVER been stiffed on a rebate through/from Tiger Direct.
Which of the following explanations is more likely:

A. I have a big smiley face icon next to my name in Tiger Direct's
computers along with a note from the CEO instructing them to honor my
rebates just because I'm a really cool dude

B. I am meticulous in following directions and complying with rules for
submission of rebates <=== bingo!

Here is a photo of 22 rebate submissions worth over $1300 from
purchases made just between 05/14/2004 and 05/31/2004 (nearly half were
from Best Buy):

http://s89934018.onlinehome.us/images/rebates.jpg

I received ALL of those rebate checks with the exception of one that
was part of a two-rebate promotion. They approved one rebate but
denied the other because they claimed I couldn't redeem both (which was
not correct). Surprisingly, the rebate they approved was the more
significant of the two.

Like you, I am meticulous in following directions, complying with rules
for submission of rebates, verifying that downloadable rebate forms are
for the correct promotion before purchasing, making copies of all
materials submitted, and getting the rebate postmarked BEFORE the
deadline.

Something else is key to my success (and I suspect your's). I do not,
as many can be found advocating on numerous forums, attempt to 'game'
promotions by deliberately misreading offers and terms to create
dubious interpretations that seek to enhance the promotion being
offered or combine different promotions that a reasonable plain reading
would not warrant (i.e. rebate abuse). I have gone around and around
with persons advocating such dubious practices on various forums. More
often than not, these are the same persons crying foul and advocating
legal action the loudest when their rebates are denied or frequently
rant about rebates being a scam.

Regards,

Tim

 

[Barry Watzman]

As I said earlier, if you don't have the mentality to do the rebates
IMMEDIATELY (same day as the purchase) then don't do them at all,
because you ***WILL*** end up not submitting many of them. But that's
not the fault of those offering the rebates. It's a mind-set and an
attitude and a discipline, and not everyone has it.

Your point about sales tax is well understood. But that point only
matters when both the item is very expensive, and the rebate is very
large. And those tend to be the deals where you can get the best deals.
[In February I bought a HIGH-END Centrino laptop at Circuit city,
$1130 out the door, but about $570 after NINE rebates (of $30 ot $200)
each, and selling the "FREE" [after rebate] items that came with it
including a multi-function printer and a wireless router. I have
received all 9 rebates. It took almost 5 hours to do the rebates. Many
people wouldn't go through that, for me it was worth the time and effort.]

 

[Barry Watzman]

Most of Best Buy's own rebates are processed by a rebate center (which
may be owned by Best Buy) in Calais, Maine.

 

[DP]

As I said earlier, if you don't have the mentality to do the rebates
IMMEDIATELY (same day as the purchase) then don't do them at all, because
you ***WILL*** end up not submitting many of them. But that's not the
fault of those offering the rebates. It's a mind-set and an attitude and
a discipline, and not everyone has it.

But the issue is not MY mentality. We are talking about the very reason
companies do rebates.
If the percentage of people who do rebates were to skyrocket to say 98% of
customers, how long do you think the rebate program would last? It's BECAUSE
the companies know that the filing percentage will be considerably lower
that they continue to offer rebates. It's the sucker-born-every-minute
philosophy. And in this case I'll admit I'm one of the suckers.

I'll go back to the point I made earlier: How much will a company be able to
lower its MSRP if it didn't offer a rebate program? That's where I'd like
companies to be.

I realize you profit from rebates. Congratulations.
But lets go to an analogy. It's not a perfect one, but it might be a good
point of discussion.
Lets assume HYPOTHETICALLY that a white person who walks into a car
dealership is going to get a better deal on an interest rate than a black
person or a Hispanic. I say hypothetically because though there are people
who will tell you there is data that supports that hypothesis, I don't want
to get into an argument as to whether that interpretation of the data is
correct.
Lets just say it's true: A white man will get a better interest rate than an
African American or a Hispanic. So I know that whenever I want to buy a car,
I'm going to come out a winner compared to other ethnic groups. Does that
make that system right because I fare better at it than other folks?
Remember, I said it is not a perfect analogy. Racism is a much more serious
offense compared to whether I save a few bucks on a joystick. But still, if
the main reason for rebates is trickery -- the idea that you're really not
going to get the savings you think you're going to get -- then the fact that
YOU profit from the rebates and others may also profit from them is no valid
defense of the system if its based on the idea that most people will not
profit from it.
And I think that anybody who delves into this will find that there is
trickery involved. The company is betting on the fact that you're never
going to file that paperwork. They are hyping a savings to you that they
know you're unlikely to ever get.

And I guess I should finally make it clear that tho this subject is "Best
Buy rebate scam," my point has never been that Best Buy is scamming its
customers. I've been talking about rebates in general. I just happened to
join in on this particular discussion.

 

[Mark A]

I'll go back to the point I made earlier: How much will a company be able
to lower its MSRP if it didn't offer a rebate program? That's where I'd
like companies to be.

I think you misunderstand the main purpose of mail-in rebates. There are two
main purposes:

1. For food or consumables, it is to often to get you to try the product,
sometimes for free or at a nominal cost after rebate, in the hopes that you
will like the product and purchase more in the future.

2. For hard goods (like electronic equipment) it is usually to move excess
inventory or items that are about to be obsolete by newer models.

There is no way that a company would be willing to permanently lower the
MSRP in these situations, and there is no way they could remain profitable
and survive if they did that. Sometimes certain items must be sold at a
discount, but they don't want to consumers to get the impression that the
new models will be cheaper also.

So I don't agree with your assumption that if mail-in rebates were
discontinued that they could charge lower prices. That may be true for
grocery stores that don't offer coupons or discounts like Wal-Mart, but it
is not the same thing when talking about electronic goods that are
discounted for a particular reason, and not just to get you in the store.

 

[Jesse]

I recently bought a DVD burner on sale with a rebate from TigerDirect
that was bundled with something called e-Trust Security Suite.
Apparently they were giving away the software as a loss leader because
after subtracting the three rebates that came with the offer, the final
price was $10 for both items.. it turned out to be about 75% off the
cost of the DVD burner, plus the security software was essentially
thrown in for free..But the three rebate forms.. that was quite the
challenge! Having a natural aversion to any task that requires me to
think and follow directions, I procrastinated until the very last
afternoon of the 30 day postmark limit...As I sat down at the computer
to begin my work, I had an hour before the post office closed. At first
I thought, wow!..this is going to be easy... I knew how to look up my
TigerDirect user account webpage and print out three copies of the
invoice from the file menu, and I had the highly skilled manual
dexterity to cut out the 1.5 by 1 inch UPC bar codes with an exacto
knife and put them face down in the scanner.. I felt like I had a major
advantage over the average internet shopper. But then it got
complicated, really complicated! To process the rebate form I had to
type in a code from a fake *introductory* rebate form and then wait
almost two minutes for a confirmation email for each of the three
tracking numbers ... and then I had to cut and paste the tracking
numbers and type in all my mailing information into the *real* rebate
forms before I pressed print.. talk about stress . waiting for the
printer to print out the forms with the mailing labels, I thought I was
going pass out from anxiety! I checked off the three boxes indicating
I had followed all the right steps and signed and dated the 3 forms.
As I looked at the clock and saw that the post office was closing in 40
minutes and I still had to tape the mailing labels on the envelopes put
the stamps on, I began twitching uncontrollably, but I took a deep
breath, braced myself and did what I needed to do! But when realized I
still had to drive 5 minutes to the post office in the rain and I
couldn't find my car keys, I broke out into a cold sweat and started
screaming like a bitch! I really thought I was gonna lose it! After
running from room to room for a while, I found them in my front pocket
.... oops!. Luckily, the nice lady at the post office calmed me down and
assured me that I had used the right stamps and everything was going to
be all right. I can see how weaker souls might not survive this process
with their sanity intact.. . I don't recommend it to anyone!
hehehe...

JDK

That's fine and true, BUT ... for those of us who really do submit the
rebates (not that we like it either), you won't get as good a deal with
"instant rebates" as with mail-in rebates precisely becuase mail-in
rebates of often not "mailed in". [And I've never seen a significant
item that was "Free after [instant] rebate"]. Fact is, with mail-in
rebates, we often get MAJOR items ... LCD monitors, disk drives, memory
... that are effectively "half off". An instant rebate is nothing but a
sale price, and sure, you can find things 10%, sometimes 20% off, but
rarely more. So mail-in rebates definitely have their place, because,
as I mentioned earlier, mail-in rebates are really a form of
differential pricing, charging different prices for the same thing
bought at the same place to different people. And I'm one of the people
who is willing to do the work to get the lower price.

I don't think so. They're doing the same thing here. I spoke with a
"manager" about the change, mentioning that I'm far more likely to purchase
an item with "instant rebate" than with mail-in. He said that was the
overwhelming sentiment they had been getting from customers.

 

[DP]

I think you misunderstand the main purpose of mail-in rebates. There are
two main purposes:

1. For food or consumables, it is to often to get you to try the product,
sometimes for free or at a nominal cost after rebate, in the hopes that
you will like the product and purchase more in the future.

I still think that if companies did away with rebates AND coupons, they
might be able to lower prices all around. Printing coupons and rebate
certificates cost money. Monitoring the rebate program costs money. I assume
there are some management costs involved in repaying grocery stores for
coupons as well. then there's the cost of advertising the rebate programs.
There's a very simple way a company can offer introductory prices to get you
to try the product. Simply lower the wholesale price temporarily and assume
the retailer will do the same. They can move the wholesale prices up and
down all they want if they want to make a product more attractive to buyers
and then put the prices back to "normal" when they've hooked enough new
customers. Supply and demand. It worked well for the life of capitalism.
(I could be wrong, but the first time I remember seeing rebates used a lot
was during the price-control days of the nixon administration. I think
companies offered rebates because if they lowered their prices temporarily,
they might not be able to raise them again because of price controls.)
I don't expect companies to act fairly, but I do think a regular system of
manufacturers raising and lowering wholesale prices as the market dictates
is a much fairer system for the consumer. At least, if the retail price is
lowered, you're paying sales tax on THAT price, not on the higher
before-rebate price. I think these threads indicate there is enough
disatisfaction with rebate programs that we might have finally reached a
critical mass that might lead to change.

2. For hard goods (like electronic equipment) it is usually to move excess
inventory or items that are about to be obsolete by newer models.

I disagree, in part. Norton products almost always have a rebate posted on
the shrinkwrap to get you to upgrade or to replace a competing product. From
my recollection, the rebate offer runs the life of the product, which tends
to change annually. When it's introduced at the beginning of the product
cycle, there's a rebate offer. And usually at the end of the product cycle
the rebate offer is still on the box and usually still good. Either they
start out with a long period in which to file the rebate, or else the rebate
deadline slides during the year. (If Norton is going to offer the same
rebate throughout the product lifecycle, why not just lower the price.)
Quicken and Money do the pretty much the same.