Good cost estimate?

[Dave C.]

- Intel is quieter - Intel heatsink/fan is QUIET. AMD's sounds like a

hairdryer.

This may be true of stock AMD coolers. The nice thing is, the AMD chips are
so cheap you can buy a quiet cooler for them and still save money over
buying an Intel processor.

AMD also needs at least one extra case fan to stay cool. I can

hear my XP2000+ machine two rooms away, but I can't hear my P4 at 5 paces.

Any system should have at least one case fan, regardless of processor. I
can't hear my wife's XP2500+ system at 3 feet with five (total, including
two in the PSU) cooling fans running. But I chose PSU and cooling fans
designed to be quiet. One noisy PSU and/or cooling fan can easily create
more noise than three quiet ones, so you need to choose your PSU and cooling
fans carefully, regardless of what CPU you use. I'd be willing to bet your
P4 system is a LOT louder than my wife's XP2500+ system that I designed and
built for her. I specifically wanted to maximize stability and minimize
noise, and I succeeded with very little effort.

- Intel is cooler - My P4, even overclocked, doesn't go past 53'C. I've seen
AMD's that regulary run around 65'C.

OK, Intel is cooler. I don't see how this is an advantage unless you plan
to run about a thousand CPUs in a small room. (!) Any effort you put into
improving cooling efficiency and decreasing noise levels will benefit any
system, regardless of CPU. Extra heat in a specific CPU is not a problem as
long as it stays well within the range it was designed to operate at.

- Intel is more stable - AMD might be a stable chip, but the supporting
chipsets are not. VIA is the worst and luckily I've never had to deal with a
Via based P4. Loading up the OS and drivers on my P4 went much smoother than
the same process on my AMD PC's.

OK, here you are just showing pure ignorance. It is a myth that Intel is
more stable than AMD. It is also a myth that Intel chipsets are more stable
than AMD chipsets. Actually, any instability in a system usually results
from excessive cost-cutting in areas not related to the CPU or supporting
chipset. Not coincidentally, a good percentage of people who build cheap
choose AMD. Thus, there are more unstable AMD systems than Intel systems.
This has nothing to do with either the CPU or supporting chipsets, though.
For one good example, if you buy a cheap PSU, your system is likely to be
unstable regardless of what processor you use. But if you are inclined to
buy a cheap PSU, you are unlikely to spend a lot of extra money just to buy
an Intel CPU. Thus you have a lot of people who end up with crap systems
and wrongfully blame the (usually AMD) CPU. It is odd that I've never had a
problem loading the OS or drivers on any system I've built, Intel OR AMD.
My latest project was a XP2500+ for my wife. The OS install was totally
automatic. (literally). I started the XP installation, got distracted for
a while, came back to find XP was already installed and working perfectly.
It couldn't have been easier unless the CD-Rom loaded itself into the
DVD-Rom player. -Dave

 

[kony]

OK, Intel is cooler.

It's not so clear-cut.

Any decent cooler will keep an AMD chip "cool enough". At idle, it is
typical that the P4 is cooler, but when I write "cooler", i'm ignoring
the temp of the CPU, as it's somewhat irrelevant so long as stable.
By "cooler" I mean less heat created.

On the other hand, modern P4 creates more heat at full load. Because
it is necessary to design a system to handle full load, either the
system is more complex and costly integrated with temp-controlled
cooling, or louder (actually, always louder to remain at same chassis
heat density when at full load).


Dave

 

[Anon]

Problem is that if a committee is set up to do this, we'll end up with
a camel....

Martin

I believe if you carefully study what Intel has drafted, you would agree
with me that a camel is a much better alternative. Actually, if the form
factor were decided by committee, we'd likely be stuck with ATX for several
more years . . . and there's nothing wrong with that, as nothing in "BTX" is
needed now, or for the next several years. -Dave

 

[jeremy]

My local "mom and pop" store has made the following bid for a new system
I'm considering. I'd like some opinions about what you think. I'd like to
buy local if possible. Expected use is web surfing, email, limited dvd
making someday. System will replace a 3 year old P-3 running Win98SE.

Intel Pentium 4 2.6 GHz 800MHz FSB
Intel D865 Perl Motherboard
1024MB DDR PC3200 Memory
Seagate 120GB SATA Hard Disk w/ 8MB Cache ATI 9600PRO 128MB DVI/TV Out
Video Card Lite-on 8X DVD +/- RW Rewritable Drive 52x24x52 CD-RW Drive
3.5" Floppy Disk
Standard Case w/ 500W Power Supply
Windows XP Home Edition (OEM)
$1217.00

Harry

That looks like a good system, with good components at a good price.

As others have noted, I would also be wary of the power supply. This is
an area where some people cut corners.

I worked for a mom & pop shop once, and they built decent systems. But
prior to my employment they put a huge number of systems out there with
Deer power supplies. Yeah they worked well for a while. But then they
started to blow up, too often taking everything else with them. I think
the majority went after the first year (fscking anyone with a 1 year
warranty) but I think most of them were installed in cloned systems in
area schools and businesses who took a 3 year warranty (lucky for them)

My point is, using a cheap power supply can risk destroying other
components, and this could very well happen outside of the warranty period.

~Jeremy
____________________________________________________________________
Please remove your windows partition when replying by email

 

[Noozer]

I believe if you carefully study what Intel has drafted, you would agree
with me that a camel is a much better alternative. Actually, if the form
factor were decided by committee, we'd likely be stuck with ATX for several
more years . . . and there's nothing wrong with that, as nothing in "BTX" is
needed now, or for the next several years. -Dave

I just finished looking at the BTX spec... Tsk...What a waste of a good
opportunity.

If they're going to make changes, make them useful!

All BTX does is put the CPU in direct line of the front case fan to give it
the chance for some cool air before it hits anything else.

You really want to improve ATX, just turn your whole case upside down. Put
your HDD where the PSU would go and the PSU in front where the HDD would go.
Put the side fans and rear fans sucking cool air into the PC and over the
CPU and use your front fans to exhaust the air.

If you want to do something for small factor PC's, add two PCI-X connectors
at 90' on the BOTTOM of the mainboard.

....If I had time, I'd build one of these beasts. : )

 

[Anon]

I just finished looking at the BTX spec... Tsk...What a waste of a good
opportunity.

If they're going to make changes, make them useful!

All BTX does is put the CPU in direct line of the front case fan to give it
the chance for some cool air before it hits anything else.

I agree!!! There is nothing useful or necessary in the BTX spec. Plus, all
the changes in BTX could be just as easily folded into ATX. Like I've
written before, if Chevy wanted to make a "BTX", they'd start with an "ATX",
rotate the tires side to side and move the cupholders a few inches. (notice
how the expansion slots are on the "wrong" side of a BTX board . . . just to
make it look different from ATX) -Dave

 

[kony]

I agree that standardization is an awesomely good thing for PC consumers.
Why is Intel allowed to dictate a new form factor, though? Intel is a huge
chip manufacturer, no doubt. But they aren't the only huge chip
manufacturer. It could be argued that Intel is just one of several chip
manufacturers. For that matter, why is it a chip manufacturer alone who is
dictating the form factor? Assuming for a moment that a new form factor is
needed . . .

Why? Their CPUs need more airflow, they'll do what they can to get
it, because they can.

 

[Anon]

Why? Their CPUs need more airflow, they'll do what they can to get
it, because they can.

Regardless of their reasoning, why are the other umpteen thousand hardware
manufacturers LETTING them? -Dave

 

[Jon D]

Dave wrote...

Regardless of their reasoning, why are the other umpteen thousand hardware
manufacturers LETTING them? -Dave

Anyone notice how BTX kind of sounds like BeTamaX? Haha...hopefully, the
new form factor also helps silence noise from the snotty Intel engineers who
designed it. I'm really looking forward to throwing my Addtronics 7896A
into the "useless junk" pile...NOT...

-Jon D

 

[Bogdan]

You really want to improve ATX, just turn your whole case upside down. Put
your HDD where the PSU would go and the PSU in front where the HDD would go.
Put the side fans and rear fans sucking cool air into the PC and over the
CPU and use your front fans to exhaust the air.

I take it your PC isn't noisy enough.

 

[jeffc]

My local "mom and pop" store has made the following bid for a new
system I'm considering. I'd like some opinions about what you think.
I'd like to buy local if possible. Expected use is web surfing, email,
limited dvd making someday. System will replace a 3 year old P-3
running Win98SE.

Why? For the life of me, other than adding a DVD drive, I can't understand
why anyone would pay $1200 for web surfing and email. You can buy a $100
used computer to do that, assuming you have a fast internet connection.

 

[jeffc]

Why? Why not get a 64 bit Athlon 64 instead?

Yeah, THAT would really speed up his surfing and email.

 

[jeffc]

Hogwash. My full-size ATX mid-tower Athlon XP system runs very cool,
rock-solid stable . . . and has no audible noise while running. Imagine
that! How did I ever accomplish that without the Intel engineers showing me
the way with their BTX form factor magic???

You're missing the point. You did it because you're an enthusiast, not
because of any inherent advantage to ATX. The BTX design takes it into
account specifically. Your anecdotal points are irrelevant. It's like
saying my grandfather lived to 95 smoking his whole life, therefore this
whole smoking/cancer thing is hogwash.

 

[Dave C.]

showing

You're missing the point. You did it because you're an enthusiast, not
because of any inherent advantage to ATX. The BTX design takes it into
account specifically. Your anecdotal points are irrelevant. It's like
saying my grandfather lived to 95 smoking his whole life, therefore this
whole smoking/cancer thing is hogwash.

I never claimed ATX had an advantage over BTX, simply that BTX doesn't have
any significant, or even NECESSARY, advantage over ATX. Yes, I'm an
enthusiast and a professional computer geek who built (for my wife) a silent
Athlon XP system. I used common, non-proprietary, readily available and
(relatively) inexpensive parts to do so. In other words, I did absolutely
NOTHING that any white box vendor or computer giant like Dell, etc.,
couldn't easily duplicate, probably for less money than I spent (after all,
I got all my parts retail, one or two at a time). If many pre-built or even
custom built ATX systems are noisy, that has nothing to do with any flaw in
the ATX form factor. Regardless of size or configuration, a noisy ATX
system simply reflects poor planning in the pre-build stage. You don't need
a new form factor to make systems more quiet, and the BTX form factor will
not help one bit, if that is the goal. -Dave

 

[jeffc]

You don't need
a new form factor to make systems more quiet, and the BTX form factor will
not help one bit, if that is the goal. -Dave

You don't NEED a shovel to dig a hole either, and the BTX form factor DOES
help one bit.

 

[Dave C.]

You don't NEED a shovel to dig a hole either, and the BTX form factor DOES
help one bit.

You do understand that not all cooling fans are created equal, right? One
noisy fan can produce more audible noise than three quiet cooling fans. But
the BTX form factor doesn't eliminate the need for cooling fans. They are
still there. So you will still (unfortunately) have many systems that are
noisy. The BTX form factor will make no difference at all, as far as noise
is concerned. IF BTX systems are quieter (unlikely) it will be
coincidental, as it will depend on system builders choosing quiet cooling
fans. Too many ATX system builders choose noisy cooling fans. Why would
they suddenly get wise just because the layout of their motherboard has
changed? -Dave

 

[Harry Avant]

Why? For the life of me, other than adding a DVD drive, I can't understand
why anyone would pay $1200 for web surfing and email. You can buy a $100
used computer to do that, assuming you have a fast internet connection.

Guess I should have been more specific. Yes web surfing, email and
news group reading is most of what I do. But I also play with
Photoshop, burn a fair number of cd mixes from my collection, and make
some mp-3 cds for background music in the house. I agree that my
current system is adequate for most of my needs but I want a "bigger,
badder and faster" system for now and for future expansion. Maybe it's
just a strange thing about me but I feel better when I'm able to
replace an older, but working system, with a newer one. This way I
have a "spare" in case of failure. My previous system was a p-133 with
a 2.2 gig drive. I was able to burn cds at 2x and email was fine. When
I got the P-3 (733mHz) I was able to burn and make mp-3s a lot faster
and didn't need to live in fear of buffer problems. If it were just a
matter of adding a DVD drive I'd add one to the existing system. My
post was to determine if the price was fair, NOT to start a war about
Intel vs AMD, nor to determine if what I was getting was adequate or
overkill. I just wanted to get feedback on the price/value and I did
get lots of positive feedback. For that I thank those who replied to
my original question; and the system should be ready by late tomarrow.

Harry

ps And yes I do have a fast (DSL) connection.

 

[kony]

You don't NEED a shovel to dig a hole either, and the BTX form factor DOES
help one bit.

Oh? What problem? ATX systems seem to run, or no? Help implies a
problem. If system designers (home users, whoever), are too cheap,
lazy, or incompetent to properly configure an ATX, what makes you
think they'll adhere to proper configuration of a BTX?

 

[jeffc]

You do understand that not all cooling fans are created equal, right? One
noisy fan can produce more audible noise than three quiet cooling fans.

Of course.

But the BTX form factor doesn't eliminate the need for cooling fans. They are
still there. So you will still (unfortunately) have many systems that are
noisy.

That is not related to BTX vs. ATX.

The BTX form factor will make no difference at all, as far as noise
is concerned. IF BTX systems are quieter (unlikely) it will be
coincidental, as it will depend on system builders choosing quiet cooling
fans. Too many ATX system builders choose noisy cooling fans. Why would
they suddenly get wise just because the layout of their motherboard has
changed?

You're not getting it. You have to compare apples to apples. You can only
change 1 variable at a time. If the fans are the same and spinning at the
same speed, then no obviously it won't be quieter. But it will be a bit
cooler. If you set it up so they're the same temperature, and the fans are
the same, then the fans in the BTX are spinning slightly more slowly, so
it's quieter. If you set it up so the fans are different, then obviously
all bets are off.

 

[jeffc]

Oh? What problem? ATX systems seem to run, or no? Help implies a
problem. If system designers (home users, whoever), are too cheap,
lazy, or incompetent to properly configure an ATX, what makes you
think they'll adhere to proper configuration of a BTX?

How can they not? The system is physically arranged differently. All else
being equal, the BTX will be cooler. If your criterium is "does the system
run", then BTX won't make any difference to you at all, since they both
"run".