Ghost or something like it?

[Arno Wagner]

Hello, Arno:

Sorry, I disagree; I believe the "quality hit" was negligible, not
"quite visible."

Don't forget, though: PAL, and SECAM, are both based on NTSC! They were
created for political/economic reasons, not technical ones, basically
(i.e., Europe didn't want to become too dependent on post-WWII, U.S.
technology).

I have not seen SECAM. But PAL may be based on NTCS, but the quality
difference is rather strong when watching NTCS for the first time
after a lifetime of PAL. That is, I assume there is is not a generally
worse TV broadcast and equipment quality in the US.

Maybe the derived system is just also an improved system...

Arno

 

[Timothy Daniels]

I have not seen SECAM. But PAL may be based on NTCS,
but the quality difference is rather strong when watching NTCS
for the first time after a lifetime of PAL....

Puh-leeeez! It's "NTSC" - meaning "Never The Same Color",
or "Now To Suck Crap", or whatever.

*TimDaniels*

 

[Arno Wagner]

Puh-leeeez! It's "NTSC" - meaning "Never The Same Color",
or "Now To Suck Crap", or whatever.

Ooops....

Arno

 

[Keith Wilby]

Hello, Keith:

Okay, enlighten me (and the newsgroup): What was "V2000?"

Video 2000 was, IIRC, the Philips attempt at the home video market. I
distinctly remember a friend of mine having one circa 1981. The cassettes
were about the size of a VHS but looked like a big version of an audio
cassette and were recordable on both sides. There was no tracking issue
either - remember those first VHSs with the tracking control knob? The
V2000s didn't need one.

Regards,
Keith.

 

[Keith Wilby]

Oh, in the UK BTW.

Keith.

 

[Keith Wilby]

My memory on this is spot on for a change:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_2000

 

[=?iso-8859-1?q?Jukka_I_Sepp=E4nen?=]

Basically that is the idea of an image-backup. You can do it with
various tools.


Yes. Personally I do my backups of Windows with Linux. With this
you boot into Linux (if needed from Floppy or USB stick) and
put partition the new drive. Then you put the image and the
boot-manager on the new drive. Ghost does much the same, but
(I think) using DOS as basis.

Yes.
That might one source for problems because developing DOS-based
utilities seems to be at second priority compared to windows-based
utilities/programs.

I had problems with IBM T43P and R51 HD-cloning at desktop computer
with 2.5"->3.5" IDE-cables, even with exactly same type HD or bigger.
Finally get 100% reliable way do cloning without network by HD
adapters (some 40-50 dollars piece), like "62P4554 2ND HDD ADAPTER
FOR ULTRASLIM BAY 38 t" in IBM case.

With windows based utilities seems to be practise do things using
network, not "directly".


Googled:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=27721

"
4. How to screw it up:

a) Attaching the source and target drives to a machine other than a
Thinkpad.

If this is done, the cloning process may fail due to the other machine
reading the drive geometry differently than a Thinkpad.
"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://radified.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=print;num=1155560797

Title: Re: Ghost 2003: error 40011 when trying to restore
Post by Hawkeye on Aug 22nd, 2006, 5:25am
-----
OK, finally it seems that the core problem is clear.

I began to understand when 5 cylinders were unpartitioned (appr. 39MB).
When Ghost restored this image, no error happened and a really helpful
display occured:

Partition 1 grew from 1027MB to 1033MB, but only 1027MB were used,
Partition 2 grew from 20481MB to 20487MB, but only 20481MB were used,
Partition 3 grew from 35683MB to 35688MB, but only 35683MB were used,
free space shrunk from 39MB to 22MB.

Now it all was clear:
Fact 1) the BIOS doesn't report the last cylinder, so
Fact 2) Ghost tries to calculate the last cylinder !!!

But: Fact 2 isn't restricted to Ghost, EVERY booted system (e.g. SuSE
installer) calculated this cylinder on its own.

Here are some hard numbers from a completely wiped disk:
Disk label by manufacturer: 60GB, 16.383 cyl, 16 heads
Now it becomes interesting!
gdisk: 57.231,6MB, 7.752 cyl, 240 heads
SystemRescueCD: 60GB, 116.280 cyl, 16 heads
SuSE 9.3 installer: 55,8GB, 116.280 cyl
SuSE 10.1 installer: 55,8GB, 7.296 cyl
Solaris 8 installer: 57.xxxMB (sorry, forgot to write it down), 58.139 cyl

Conclusion 1: EVERY system tries to create partitions on cylinder
boundaries.
Conclusion 2: Every system calculates different numbers because of the
mute BIOS.
Conclusion 3: Ghost tries to resize(inflate!!!) partitions to its own
boundaries.

Because of conclusion 3 it is nearly impossible to restore an exact copy
of a system with cylinder boundaries other than ghosts' on the same disk.
The only exception is, when all boundaries are (accidentally) the same.
(or use -id, but see later why)

And now I am also near to understanding, why GRUB makes so much trouble.
Please correct me, if I'm wrong.
-ia (all) just copies partitions (plus just the MBR, not the extended
boottrack where GRUB is located)
-ib (boot) copies the complete boottrack including MBR, but leaves the
partition table untouched, and according to Conclusion 3 the (freshly
restored) start-pointer for the second partition now points to the end of
the previous partition or into unused area between partitions. I don't
know what is there, but definetly no filesystem with GRUB's config files,
that's why GRUB fails to start and waits with a prompt. (Just a guess, but
fact is, GRUB doesn't work.)
-id (disk) makes an exact copy of each partition, the complete boottrack
AND corrects the partition table to the new boundaries.
Now GRUB works and the backup works, too

(and all I had to do was to spend a week+weekend in front of the computer
and get a lot of trouble with my wife ;-) )


To make a long story short:
use -ib if you use GRUB or similar bootloaders and
use -id if your (*BIEP*) BIOS won't tell the disk geometry.

 

[Rod Speed]

Yes.

Nope, Ghost 9 and 10 use PE, not DOS.

True Image uses a linux live CD.

That might one source for problems because developing
DOS-based utilities seems to be at second priority
compared to windows-based utilities/programs.

In fact no one bothers with DOS anymore. Even Spinrite has given up on it now.

I had problems with IBM T43P and R51 HD-cloning at desktop
computer with 2.5"->3.5" IDE-cables, even with exactly same
type HD or bigger. Finally get 100% reliable way do cloning
without network by HD adapters (some 40-50 dollars piece), like
"62P4554 2ND HDD ADAPTER FOR ULTRASLIM BAY 38 t" in IBM case.

With windows based utilities seems to be
practise do things using network, not "directly".

No they dont. They usually do support networking AS WELL tho.

Googled:

"
4. How to screw it up:

a) Attaching the source and target drives to a machine other than a Thinkpad.

If this is done, the cloning process may fail due to the other machine
reading the drive geometry differently than a Thinkpad.
"

Thats just plain wrong. A decent cloner will ignore the geometry
the PC claims and use what the drive says about its logical blocks.

Ghost 2003 is a dinosaur way past its useby date now.

Fraid not.

I began to understand when 5 cylinders were unpartitioned (appr. 39MB).
When Ghost restored this image, no error happened and a really
helpful display occured:

Partition 1 grew from 1027MB to 1033MB, but only 1027MB were used,
Partition 2 grew from 20481MB to 20487MB, but only 20481MB were used,
Partition 3 grew from 35683MB to 35688MB, but only 35683MB were used,
free space shrunk from 39MB to 22MB.

Now it all was clear:
Fact 1) the BIOS doesn't report the last cylinder,

BIOS dont report cylinders. When the AUTO drive type is used, the bios
asks the hard drive about the number of logical blocks it has and uses that.

If you use explicit CHS values in the drive type entry in the
bios, the drive will pretend to be that, with some exceptions.

so
Fact 2) Ghost tries to calculate the last cylinder !!!

That doesnt even make sense. You cant 'calculate' that
cylinder. Presumably he actually means that the last
unused cylinder is included in the total cylinder count.

Doesnt matter anyway if its unused.

But: Fact 2 isn't restricted to Ghost, EVERY booted system
(e.g. SuSE installer) calculated this cylinder on its own.

Wrong again. Cloners that clone at the sector level
dont even consider partitions, cylinders, heads etc.

Here are some hard numbers from a completely wiped disk:
Disk label by manufacturer: 60GB, 16.383 cyl, 16 heads

Irrelevant to how it appears to the bios.

By definition it cant be that simple because the sectors per track varys
in bands across the platter and the bios knows nothing about that.

Now it becomes interesting!

Nope, just confusing for those who dont understand the basics.

gdisk: 57.231,6MB, 7.752 cyl, 240 heads
SystemRescueCD: 60GB, 116.280 cyl, 16 heads
SuSE 9.3 installer: 55,8GB, 116.280 cyl
SuSE 10.1 installer: 55,8GB, 7.296 cyl
Solaris 8 installer: 57.xxxMB (sorry, forgot to write it down),
58.139 cyl

Conclusion 1: EVERY system tries to create partitions on cylinder boundaries.

Silly 'conclusion' with a 'completely wiped' drive.

Conclusion 2: Every system calculates different numbers because of the mute BIOS.

What the **** is a 'mute BIOS' ?

Conclusion 3: Ghost tries to resize(inflate!!!) partitions to its own boundaries.

Silly 'conclusion' with a 'completely wiped' drive.

Because of conclusion 3 it is nearly impossible to restore
an exact copy of a system with cylinder boundaries other
than ghosts' on the same disk.

Wrong again with a sector by sector clone, which isnt the default.

The only exception is, when all boundaries are
(accidentally) the same. (or use -id, but see later why)

And now I am also near to understanding, why GRUB
makes so much trouble. Please correct me, if I'm wrong.

Wouldnt dream of it.

-ia (all) just copies partitions (plus just the MBR,
not the extended boottrack where GRUB is located)

-ib (boot) copies the complete boottrack including MBR, but leaves
the partition table untouched, and according to Conclusion 3 the
(freshly restored) start-pointer for the second partition now points to
the end of the previous partition or into unused area between partitions.

Dont believe it.

I don't know what is there, but definetly no filesystem with GRUB's
config files, that's why GRUB fails to start and waits with a prompt.
(Just a guess, but fact is, GRUB doesn't work.)

-id (disk) makes an exact copy of each partition, the complete
boottrack AND corrects the partition table to the new boundaries.
Now GRUB works and the backup works, too

(and all I had to do was to spend a week+weekend in front
of the computer and get a lot of trouble with my wife ;-) )

To make a long story short:
use -ib if you use GRUB or similar bootloaders and
use -id if your (*BIEP*) BIOS won't tell the disk geometry.

Or get a clue and stop using Ghost 2003.