FYI Word 2007 users who must have menus

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Sorry Larry but you have missed the point. There are many people who share
your criticisms of Word 2007 and we are not stopping anyone expressing their
opinions.

The point they are making is that this has become Larry's endless
iatribe - to the point of being boring and more than a little sad.

Terry Farrell
 
Well how nice to see that you have crawled out of your hole with your
opinion.

<Larry's point is that MS has forced him to do so.

LOL with a double helping of happy faces

Microsoft has not forced you or Larry to do a damn thing idiot.
 
I suspect that the next version of Word may take some "backward" steps to
accommodate those who were not ready for it. Holding fast with Word 2003 now
and then upgrading to Word 14 may be the best plan.
Click to expand...

If that happens, then Larry has a much bigger complaint. If they were
(or are) going to do it, they should have (a) done it now or (b)
announced that they had this backup plan and 2003 would be fully
supported until it was ready.

Now I am getting madder.
 
Larry,

I can't speak for anyone else, but I assure you that I am not
attempting to scare or cow you or anyone else. I simply said that
your views on Word2007 are already clear to everyone that reads this
group and that you do have the freedom to take steps to find an
alternative solution.

I have certainly expressed some dissatisfaction with Word2007. If I
could have, a few months ago I would have impaled the genious that
killed AutoText Autocomplete tips. I am not enamored with the Ribbon
either, but old menus and toolbars are gone and rather get stuck on it
and have a daily hissy fit I have decided to accept it and move on.
In doing so, I have found some things in Word2007 that I really like.
I would trade AutoText Autocomplete tips for Content Controls any day.

You can bark at the moon if you want to. Personally I don't think
your redundant criticism here is going to change anything. If you
want to keep it up I can ignore it.
Click to expand...

And your redundant criticism of his redundant criticism is somehow
less redundant? Or more helpful?

You are at least as much of a contributor to this unproductive thread
as he is. You keep harping on his harping. See any patterns here?
 
Sorry Larry but you have missed the point. There are many people who share
your criticisms of Word 2007 and we are not stopping anyone expressing their
opinions.
Click to expand...

No? I guess you didn't read all those posts telling Larry that he was
a little cry baby and to go away and design a better mousetrap.
The point they are making is that this has become Larry's endless
iatribe - to the point of being boring and more than a little sad.
Click to expand...

Great. Now we get the therapist wing chiming in with their half-assed
personality / social analysis. Larry doesn't sound sad to me. He
sounds pissed. At least he's not a lemming. Lemmings are very sad.
 
The only thing apparent to me Johnny Come Late is that you are an
idiot. Oh, I am being redundant again. Sorry.

The only sage advice you have offered so far is to ignore something.
I think I will do that now and ignore you. If you get any madder, may
you could have a hissy fit and feel all better.
 
I didn't reply because I didn't want to get into an endless debate on this.
The more time I spend on this topic is less time I spend helping others out.
That's why I'm in the newsgroups, I'm not here to participate in lengthy
debates. :-)

The reason I wanted to refrain from further debate is because I've attempted
to debate topics of a more simplistic nature, such as a single option that
doesn't work they way you think it should, with you in the past and I know
how lengthy those became (I'm not referring to those things that were true
bugs, such as your scrollbar). Plus, whatever I had to say didn't make a
difference - you had your mind set and that was it.

I do believe I answered that question, though, (perhaps I drafted it and
never posted it in light of my reasons above) there are around 350 commands
in Word 2003. I don't know how many there are in Word 2007 but as a rough
estimate, about 100 additional commands. The issue the majority of users
encounter in the old UI is 350 commands is a lot to take in and a lot to
search through to find what they are looking for. So you already have a UI
that is a bit overwhelming, new features and functionality will be added.
Where are the new commands going to go? New menus? New toolbars? More
taskpanes? The UI for Word was designed for 1989 when menus were 4 commands
deep and the applications were outgrowing the UI as it was.

In light of that, some decisions needed to be made. One was a new design and
another was where to put everything. Is there really a need to place seldom
used dialog boxes a few clicks away in the UI by default? You may think they
should but the majority doesn't. And that's the key here, "the majority".

Note that this is also a default. You can right-click Word Options and add
it to your Quick Access Toolbar and then it's just a click away or you can
use the old accelerator command, such as Alt+T+O and display it. You can add
any of the dialog boxes you may use frequently to your Quick Access Toolbar
or use the old accelerators from Word 2003. You can even create your own tab
on the Ribbon if you want with whatever commands you want to add.

In my opinion, this change isn't any different from using slash commands to
navigate an application to using a mouse, menus, and toolbars. I recall
those days, I couldn't imagine how a mouse was going to make me more
efficient than my trusty slash commands! Those were engrained - it was like
my hands had their own "brain" and functioned independently of what I was
doing. Now I need to look at stuff and click?? I can't see how taking my
hands off the keyboard and reaching for a mouse was going to make me work
faster!

And it's no different from the change from WordBasic to VBA. My first
thought was WordBasic was SOOOO simple - why did they make it so much more
difficult??? Objects, Properties, Methods, Events? Who needs this stuff?
What do they have to do with automating tasks in Word??? Then I learned the
power of VBA.

I'm currently learning the power of XML.

Now, I'm off to do what I come here for in the first place, to help others
with Word. :-)

Please post all follow-up questions to the newsgroup. Requests for
assistance by email can not be acknowledged.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Beth Melton
 
What are you talking about? Larry hasn't moved beyond Word 97. And based on
the several years I've been around these newsgroups, and him, I've never
seen anyone force him to do anything he doesn't want to do. ;-)
 
The only thing apparent to me Johnny Come Late is that you are an
idiot. Oh, I am being redundant again. Sorry.

The only sage advice you have offered so far is to ignore something.
I think I will do that now and ignore you. If you get any madder, may
you could have a hissy fit and feel all better.
Click to expand...

You seem to be the one down on the floor rolling around, kicking your
feet, and holding your breath. ;-)
 
So far, you have added absolutely nothing in the way of debate. I've been
reading Larry's opinions for far too long (it isn't just in this thread). If
you read back through the newsgroup, you will see that I am not in total
disagreement with him either and he certainly has my understanding and
sympathy.

The point I made is that he has made the same point repeatedly: he doesn't
like the new interface.

This newsgroup is to help others with problems or queries about all versions
of Word: Larry doesn't seem to want help. There is a time when enough is
enough.

How you deduced me as a "half-assed personality / social analysis" from one
statement is clever. It make me happy. And what the hell have lemmings to do
with this?

Terry Farrell
 
What are you talking about? Larry hasn't moved beyond Word 97. And based on
the several years I've been around these newsgroups, and him, I've never
seen anyone force him to do anything he doesn't want to do. ;-)
Click to expand...

Again, I don't think this is the point. Larry was not accusing anyone
here of forcing him to do anything (other than listen to Greg's temper
tantrums). His point was that MS is forcing him by replacing the tool
he knows with one that he does not like and, unlike the car analogy,
he cannot easily just keep his old clunker or buy a car from another
company. I happen to agree with his point. It's a valid point.

But, if he's still on Word 97, then I have to withdraw my support. I
am happily humming the theme song from *Thoroughly Modern Millie*
while running Word 2000 on Win 2000. No clunkers for me.
 
So far, you have added absolutely nothing in the way of debate. I've been
reading Larry's opinions for far too long (it isn't just in this thread). If
you read back through the newsgroup, you will see that I am not in total
disagreement with him either and he certainly has my understanding and
sympathy.

The point I made is that he has made the same point repeatedly: he doesn't
like the new interface.
Click to expand...

That's valuable information. I am far more interested in hearing from
unhappy campers than listening to the choir. I can decide if he's a
luddite or a troll or an adolescent.
This newsgroup is to help others with problems or queries about all versions
of Word: Larry doesn't seem to want help. There is a time when enough is
enough.
Click to expand...

Who gets to be the judge?
How you deduced me as a "half-assed personality / social analysis" from one
statement is clever. It make me happy. And what the hell have lemmings to do
with this?
Click to expand...

You said that Larry's "endless diatribe" was "a little sad". I;d say
that was at least patronizing, if not psychoanalysis.

Lemmings are the little critters who jump over the cliff to their
death just because the little critter ahead of them did so. Here's
Larry yelling, "Stop! It's a goddamn cliff. Stop running.". It sounded
to me like some of you were saying, "Shut up and follow.".

Well, we've certainly beat this one to death.
 
We were repeatedly told that there was no satisfactory way to provide a
"Classic" view for Word 2007, certainly not if the product was to meet its
release date. The fact that so far no add-in that attempts to provide that
view is totally satisfactory should be proof of this.

Word 2003 is and will continue to be fully supported for several more
versions; Word 97 is currently out of support and I believe Word 2000 as
well.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.
 
It's a "forum" (look it up), not a MS support group. There is supposed
to be differences of opinion. I strongly differ with yours, for
example, but I'm telling you to shut up.
Click to expand...

Actually, this is not correct. The microsoft.public newsgroup hierarchy are
hosted by Microsoft for the purpose of user peer support. The fact that they
are propagated to other news servers and slurped by Web portals (including
Microsoft's own) is irrelevant: Microsoft owns these NGs.

Moreover, the purpose of these NGs is support. Although there is an
inevitable amount of discussion and chitchat, their primary purpose is for
people to ask questions and get answers. That being the case, it might be
argued that any post that is not either a question or an answer (or at least
an attempt at an answer) is off-topic.

And although it certainly does people some good to kvetch and have others
agree with them, it does not help anyone. If you come here and complain
about something you don't like and we can tell you a way to work around it,
or explain that you have misinterpreted it and there's actually a way for
you to do what you want after all, then that's useful. When we begin to lose
patience is when people won't take no for an answer. If we tell them, "There
is no way to do this in Word," and they keep coming back and asking how to
do it, it's very frustrating. Similarly, if we tell someone, "Sorry, that's
just the way it is. Deal with it," and he keeps coming back and complaining
about it endlessly, then it does become very wearing, not least because we
have a sincere desire to help, and there is no way we can help in this
situation.


--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.
 
This has been very lively discussion. I thank LurfysMa for bravely taking
my side against the massed might of the MVPs, though at the last moment she
(and I assume from the name it's a she) seems to have changed her mind,
though maybe she's being ironic, on finding out that I still use Word 97.
But if she's not being ironic but means it, that's pretty funny, given that
she herself uses Word 2000.

I want to point out that certain people in this thread, after saying they
had no intention of putting me down in personal terms or trying to
intimidate me away from speaking my mind, repeatedly used language about me
that obviously had that intention.

Also, to act as if these groups exist for no other purpose than giving and
receiving help, so that we cannot DISCUSS the software that is under
discussion, is not acceptable. I will continue to have questions about Word
2007 (not for myself at the moment, but for someone I'm helping with it),
and along with those questions there inevitably arises the issue of Word
2007's horrendous interface and the costs resulting from the wholesale
destruction of the previous interface. For people just to accept the 2007
interface and never comment on it, would turn us into the mindless slaves of
Microsoft.

Someone mentioned that the next version of Word may "pull back" a bit from
the extreme dismantling of Word that was done in 2007. If that is true, it
may have something to do with the ability that exists in these groups to
discuss Word, its good points and its bad points, frankly and freely.

I know certain MVPs disagree with me and disapprove of me on this issue,
but, as has already been said, if they feel that way, they can always ignore
those posts of mine that they feel add nothing useful.

Larry
 
Larry

We will always try to answer any questions: please don't think that we are
putting anyone on a blacklist.

The point we are making is not to agree or disagree with your dislike of the
new interface (you already know that I support many of your concerns), but
further arguments about the interface is not going to get us any further. We
need to progress with what we have.

Despite what others may think, MVPs are not Microsoft Lackeys worshipping
their every decision. Be assured that we raised concerns about lack of
legacy interface option, lack of ribbon customisation and a host of other
dislikes and concerns with MS.

Terry Farrell
 
Agreed.

We addressed customization concerns 18 months ago. At first, like you, many
were outraged. But quality feedback isn't telling someone "this stinks" -
that won't get you very far and it's honestly not a "discussion". A
discussion consists of knowledgeable, rational, and reasonable feedback,
along with offering suggestions instead of mere criticism. Quality feedback
goes something like, first complement an aspect you like, provide a problem
statement, and then offer a reasonable suggestion. (At least that's what
seems to work for me. ;-) ). We've offered numerous suggestions for the last
18 months and right now all we can do is wait. There have been hints but
nothing has been confirmed.

The only way to provide quality feedback and have a knowledgeable discussion
on any subject is to first understand what you're talking about and not make
quick assessments. I don't think making sure I have a full understanding of
a subject in order to provide quality feedback makes me a "mindless slave"
or a "Microsoft Lackey", I think it's called "knowing your enemy". <grin>
And typically, as you get to know your enemy, you discover along the way
that they are some qualities about your enemy that you like, but it doesn't
mean you love everything about your enemy, and you still address those
concerns every chance you get.

I think you'd have to agree that when all someone has to say are things such
as, "horrendous", "hideous catastrophe", "monstrosity", it sounds more like
Henny Penny -- someone who is running about in a crazed state yelling "Word
is coming to its demise! We must act quickly and swiftly to stop this
catastrophe!". It doesn't sound rational or reasonable - it certainly isn't
laying the groundwork for a rationale discussion.

Please post all follow-up questions to the newsgroup. Requests for
assistance by email can not be acknowledged.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Beth Melton
 
This has been very lively discussion. I thank LurfysMa for bravely taking
my side against the massed might of the MVPs, though at the last moment she
(and I assume from the name it's a she) seems to have changed her mind,
though maybe she's being ironic, on finding out that I still use Word 97.
But if she's not being ironic but means it, that's pretty funny, given that
she herself uses Word 2000.
Click to expand...

Geez, Larry, maybe your detractors are right. Yes, I was kidding you
and being ironic. Did you need to ask? You might want to go in to have
your obsessive-compulsive levels checked. ;-)

BTW: We are upgrading all of our computers soon and will be installing
Office 2007. That's why your post caught my eye. I'll let you know if
I agree with your opinion of the interface. Even if I like it, I still
consider MS arrogant and dismissive of the needs of many users. It's
primary customers are corporations who buy thousands of licenses. This
NG is one way MS gets a lot of hard-working folks to work for free
answering questions about the vagaries of their products. If they paid
the MVPs even half of what they are worth, many of them could quit
their day jobs.
 
Some may see it that way, but for me, the newsgroups help increase my
knowledge of the applications.You see, the newsgroups are a two-way street.
I learn something new every day, either by reading advice offered by others
or researching a question, and that makes me more of an asset in my
profession. There's only so much you can learn on your own. :-)

Please post all follow-up questions to the newsgroup. Requests for
assistance by email can not be acknowledged.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Beth Melton
 
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