Experiment (Gateway stores closed)

[Mac Cool]

When I went to Dell.com the cheapest Dimension 4600 that I saw was
798 after a 10% discount.

$692 actually

 

[Mr. Vice President]

Yeah yeah like someone would honestly say anything bad about a Dell
when they own one and justifying why they bought it.

It goes both ways... why do you care if people build their own or buy a
Dell? Are you trying to justify something to yourself? Dells are fantastic
machines for the price, no justification necessary.

 

[Mac Cool]

I was posting earlier that if you want a decent computer, you should
build your own. It only takes a flat-blade screwdriver

My wife is the perfect example of someone who doesn't know anything
about hardware and doesn't care to learn.

I made a shopping list which read motherboard, CPU, video card, hard
drive, RAM, DVD drive, case, power supply, keyboard mouse. I left
sound card off the list as most people would be happy with onboard
sound. I also left monitor off the list as most people buying a
computer would already have a monitor. I forgot to add OS to the
list, but that's a minimal expense, when purchased with a system.

OK, so she knows nothing about
hardware, but she's not an idiot. (!)

Will she say the same about her husband after she hooks everything up
and turns on the power? (hint: she didn't buy a heatsink for that OEM
processor)

I think she proved my point nicely. Show me any pre-built system
under $800 that is better quality than what someone who knows NOTHING
about hardware can build themselves.

IMO, you dont' have a 'system' because you lack a monitor, heat sink, OS
and software to run on it. In the real world these things cost money and
even if you already have them, most pre-built systems will include them
in the price. Go back and fix your example and see if you can actually
prove your point about building a system comparable to say a Dell 4600
for less than $800.

This experiment proved that it's just plain stupid to order a
pre-built system, unless you really hate your money, for some odd
reason. -Dave

Some people prefer spending their free time doing other things, I
wouldn't call them stupid.

 

[Dave C.]

IMO, you dont' have a 'system' because you lack a monitor, heat sink, OS

and software to run on it. In the real world these things cost money and
even if you already have them, most pre-built systems will include them
in the price. Go back and fix your example and see if you can actually
prove your point about building a system comparable to say a Dell 4600
for less than $800.

errrr . . . you can't build a comparable dell 4600 for less than $800, but
I'll humor you.

In order to build a roughly comparable dell 4600, I had to:

Double ram
Double hard drive (up to 160GB, a little more than the
120GB drive my wife chose)
Add a single 8X DVD+RW drive
Add a Geforce FX5200 video card (roughly equal to the
ATI solution picked by my wife)
Upgrade to an optical USB mouse

This left me with a system that is $1098, but on sale for
$992 right now. This includes a 17" CRT monitor and Windows
XP Home and Wordperfect and nothing else unless you are willing
to pay extra for it.

Now lets look at what I had to do to my wife's system to
make it complete:
Add 17" CRT monitor
Add Windows XP home
Add Microsft Works*
Add HSF for Athlon 64CPU

I ended up with:

APEX Beige Mid-Tower Super Case with 350W Power Supply, Model "7C574-115"
Item# N82E16811154017
$24.00

Plextor 12X DVD+RW/-RW Drive, Model PX-712A, Retail
Item# N82E16827131326
$196.99

Arctic Cooling CPU Cooler For AMD Athlong 64/ Opteron, Model "Silencer
64" -RETAIL
Item# N82E16835186108
$9.49

Maxtor 120GB 7200RPM IDE Hard Drive, Model 6Y120P0, OEM Drive Only
Item# N82E16822144148
$95.97

Aopen KB858 Keyboard USB 107keys -OEM
Item# N82E16823144011
$7.80

Kingston ValueRAM 184 Pin 256MB DDR PC-3200 - Retail
Item# N82E16820141425
$49.00 X 2
$98.00

SCANPORT NB-1701 17" CRT Monitor -RETAIL
Item# N82E16824149010
$65.00

ASUS "K8V SE Deluxe" K8T800 Chipset Motherboard for AMD Socket 754
CPU -RETAIL
Item# N82E16813131490
$119.00

Logitech SBF69 Optical Wheel Mouse PS/2 -OEM
Item# N82E16826104137
$10.00

AMD Athlon 64 2800+, 512KB L2 Cache, 64-bit Processor - OEM
Item# N82E16819103450
$173.00

Microsoft Works 7.0 - OEM Full Version
Item# N82E16832102210
$31.00

Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition with Service Pack SP1a - OEM
Item# N82E16837102141
$91.00

GIGABYTE ATI RADEON 9200SE Video Card, 128MB DDR, 64-bit, TV-Out, 8X AGP,
Model "GV-R92S128T" -RETAIL
Item# N82E16814125116
$48.00

Total (Before tax): $ 969.25

This is roughly equal in price to a similar Dell 4600, but only
because the Dell is on sale at the moment. Even for the same
price, the system my wife spec'd is a much better deal, once it
is fitted out with OS and software and all necessary hardware.

Without even really trying, she kicked the crap out of Dell.
Imagine what she could come up with if she put some effort into it. -Dave

*Although newegg doesn't carry wordperfect, they do carry something called
(family pack?), but it's not in stock.

 

[Dick Sidbury]

APEX Beige Mid-Tower Super Case with 350W Power Supply, Model "7C574-115"
Item# N82E16811154017
$24.00

Plextor 12X DVD+RW/-RW Drive, Model PX-712A, Retail
Item# N82E16827131326
$196.99

Arctic Cooling CPU Cooler For AMD Athlong 64/ Opteron, Model "Silencer
64" -RETAIL
Item# N82E16835186108
$9.49

Maxtor 120GB 7200RPM IDE Hard Drive, Model 6Y120P0, OEM Drive Only
Item# N82E16822144148
$95.97

Aopen KB858 Keyboard USB 107keys -OEM
Item# N82E16823144011
$7.80

Kingston ValueRAM 184 Pin 256MB DDR PC-3200 - Retail
Item# N82E16820141425
$49.00 X 2
$98.00

SCANPORT NB-1701 17" CRT Monitor -RETAIL
Item# N82E16824149010
$65.00

ASUS "K8V SE Deluxe" K8T800 Chipset Motherboard for AMD Socket 754
CPU -RETAIL
Item# N82E16813131490
$119.00

Logitech SBF69 Optical Wheel Mouse PS/2 -OEM
Item# N82E16826104137
$10.00

AMD Athlon 64 2800+, 512KB L2 Cache, 64-bit Processor - OEM
Item# N82E16819103450
$173.00

Microsoft Works 7.0 - OEM Full Version
Item# N82E16832102210
$31.00

Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition with Service Pack SP1a - OEM
Item# N82E16837102141
$91.00

GIGABYTE ATI RADEON 9200SE Video Card, 128MB DDR, 64-bit, TV-Out, 8X AGP,
Model "GV-R92S128T" -RETAIL
Item# N82E16814125116
$48.00

Total (Before tax): $ 969.25

This is roughly equal in price to a similar Dell 4600, but only
because the Dell is on sale at the moment. Even for the same
price, the system my wife spec'd is a much better deal, once it
is fitted out with OS and software and all necessary hardware.

Without even really trying, she kicked the crap out of Dell.
Imagine what she could come up with if she put some effort into it. -Dave

*Although newegg doesn't carry wordperfect, they do carry something called
(family pack?), but it's not in stock.

Well does she know that the warranty on the OEM processor is roughly 15
days or maybe even less? She'd be much better off buying the retail
version for 9 dollars more and getting a free heatsink and fan plus a 3
year warranty.

IMHO
dick

 

[Matt]

I was posting earlier that if you want a decent computer, you should build
your own. It only takes a flat-blade screwdriver, and you don't even need
to know how to partition a hard drive anymore. (window xp, for example,
will install itself with almost no input from the end user, even on a brand
new never-been-partitioned hard drive) Any cabling confusion should be
cleared up by reading the manual of whatever motherboard you choose.

My wife is the perfect example of someone who doesn't know anything about
hardware and doesn't care to learn. I wanted to know, if for some odd
reason, she decided to build her own computer, WHAT would she come up with?

I made a shopping list which read motherboard, CPU, video card, hard drive,
RAM, DVD drive, case, power supply, keyboard mouse. I left sound card off
the list as most people would be happy with onboard sound. I also left
monitor off the list as most people buying a computer would already have a
monitor. I forgot to add OS to the list, but that's a minimal expense, when
purchased with a system. I then pointed her to www.newegg.com and turned
her loose. I told her to add any component she wanted to her shopping cart.
THIS is what she came up with, with no help from me:

APEX Beige Mid-Tower Super Case with 350W Power Supply, Model "7C574-115"
Item# N82E16811154017
$24.00

Plextor 12X DVD+RW/-RW Drive, Model PX-712A, Retail
Item# N82E16827131326
$196.99

Maxtor 120GB 7200RPM IDE Hard Drive, Model 6Y120P0, OEM Drive Only
Item# N82E16822144148
$95.97

Aopen KB858 Keyboard USB 107keys -OEM
Item# N82E16823144011
$7.80

Kingston ValueRAM 184 Pin 256MB DDR PC-3200 - Retail
Item# N82E16820141425
$49.00 X 2
$98.00

ASUS "K8V SE Deluxe" K8T800 Chipset Motherboard for AMD Socket 754
CPU -RETAIL
$119.00

Logitech SBF69 Optical Wheel Mouse PS/2 -OEM
Item# N82E16826104137
$10.00

AMD Athlon 64 2800+, 512KB L2 Cache, 64-bit Processor - OEM
Item# N82E16819103450
$173.00

GIGABYTE ATI RADEON 9200SE Video Card, 128MB DDR, 64-bit, TV-Out, 8X AGP,
Model "GV-R92S128T" -RETAIL
Item# N82E16814125116
$48.00

Total (Before tax): $ 772.76

She threw a couple curve-balls at me. She opted to go straight for
Athlon64, which is more power than most people need for office apps. and
Internet use (what SHE uses the system for). She also chose one of the most
expensive DVD burners available. A plextor 12X dual??? Yikes! I asked her
how she chose this stuff. Under each category, she looked at the featured
items/specials, and paid attention to the "star" rating. (user reviews).
OK, so she knows nothing about hardware, but she's not an idiot. (!)

I think she proved my point nicely. Show me any pre-built system under $800
that is better quality than what someone who knows NOTHING about hardware
can build themselves. It aint gonna happen!!! For the same price at Dell
(for example), your desktop would have a 40GB hard drive (crap) and no DVD
or CDR burning capability. Even if you are willing to spend an extra $200
or $300 on a Dell with similar capabilities to save the "hassle" of building
your own system, you will still end up with something that likely can't be
upgraded later (proprietary power supply connectors, for example)

This experiment proved that it's just plain stupid to order a pre-built
system, unless you really hate your money, for some odd reason. -Dave

Stuff and nonsense.

I find the following report right now at techbargains.com:

______________________________________________________________________
Faster Dell P4-2.8Ghz/800Mhz bus desktop $494, May 31

Extra $25 ends today. If you want more speed, faster dual channel
memory, AGP 8x slot etc..
Dimension 4600 Performance Desktop P4-2.8Ghz HT-Technology/800Mhz bus,
256MB Dual Channel DDR 400/40GB HD, 48x CD, Free 48x CDRW and 48x CD,
Word Perfect, XP Home $494, no rebate, shipped free.

Start here, Click Customize It under 4600, 2.8Ghz P4 HT/800 / XP Home /
Basic Audio - Continue

Dell 2 button Mouse/Free PDA, Camera, or Printer/No Floppy/40GB/Special
Dual drives 48x CDROM and 48xCDRW - Continue, 1 yr Basic Plan
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

You would spend $272 above the cost of the Dell system.

By the way, you claimed in another thread that 400W is minimal for a
power supply. The system you described has a 350W supply, and I'm sure
it doesn't meet your usual snooty standards for quality. You didn't
include XP, which costs another $91. And you didn't even include a word
processor. Linux is not quite ready for use by most people. And you
didn't include shipping charges.

She needed you to write the list and she needed you to direct her to
newegg. Anyway, I seriously doubt that she would have the confidence to
go ahead with a build without you holding her hand.

So really your claim is nonsense.

 

[Dave C.]

Well does she know that the warranty on the OEM processor is roughly 15
days or maybe even less? She'd be much better off buying the retail
version for 9 dollars more and getting a free heatsink and fan plus a 3
year warranty.

IMHO
dick

Yes, good point. It doesn't change the fact that the system she spec'd is
better than a similar dell, and the system she would have built would cost
the same OR LESS than the dell. This would be significant all by itself,
but it's truly amazing when you consider she has no hardware knowledge at
all, and didn't even put much effort into it. -Dave

 

[Matt]

When I went to Dell.com the cheapest Dimension 4600 that I saw was 798
after a 10% discount. It had P4-2.8/256mb/80gb/16x dvdrom/48x cdrw with
a 1 year warranty. That doesnt't look quite as good as the system of
the OP.

Dell's prices are up and down a lot. The lowest you will find for a
Dell P4 with AGP is around $500. You may have to wait a week or a month
or sometimes three months for such a price.

 

[Jonski]

[misc.consumers group removed from thread]

But the irony is that you need to be fairly computer literate in the
first place even before you can get to online forums such as homebuilt.
Try going to a big box store and listening to a conversation between a
prospective computer buyer and the sales droid there. I have overheard
these conversations all the time, and what's even worse is that the
sales droid has only slightly more of a clue than the customer does.

Plus, if the sales droid *did* know about usenet, they might be
reluctant to mention it to a first time byer. The alt.binaries.*
hierachy could really upset a whole lotta customers!

Could you imagine them saying "have a trawl through the newsgroups,
and subscribe to anything you are interested in" ! Furry teen
hermaphrodites with a limp, anyone? ;-)

Cheers
Jon

 

[Jonski]

[large snip]

Also, please explain how your wife, who you claim to be a complete
novice with computers knew how to fill in the blanks with specific
brand names and model numbers for all the components on your list.

It appears she put it in the shopping basket and he took the details
from there.

Cheers
Jon

 

[T Shadow]

Dell's prices are up and down a lot. The lowest you will find for a
Dell P4 with AGP is around $500. You may have to wait a week or a month
or sometimes three months for such a price.

Aren't Dell prices a variation on the shell game?

 

[Bob Ward]

Yes, good point. It doesn't change the fact that the system she spec'd is
better than a similar dell, and the system she would have built would cost
the same OR LESS than the dell. This would be significant all by itself,
but it's truly amazing when you consider she has no hardware knowledge at
all, and didn't even put much effort into it. -Dave

Of course, there was no warranty on the assembled system, and it
doesn't appear that your time is worth anything, but, hey, you think
you saved money, so that's all that counts.

Good luck with that flat blade screwdriver.

 

[Matt]

And what happens when Dave is out of town on business or away with his
buddies on a fishing trip and that home built computer dies right when
his wife has to get out some important document? Who does she call? Will
she be smart enough to post a question on Usenet? What if the computer is
so daamaged that it won't even start up?

Dave C tried to present the experiment as if the hypothetical computer
builder were basically doing the job on her own, so we can assume that
Dave C is permanently gone fishing. Or maybe trolling.

 

[Matt]

I asked her
how she chose this stuff. Under each category, she looked at the featured
items/specials, and paid attention to the "star" rating. (user reviews).
OK, so she knows nothing about hardware, but she's not an idiot. (!)

Better to sort by number of votes so as to find the most popular items.
Then look at the ratings, prices, and reviews of the most popular
items. Determine how long an item has been offered by looking at the
date of the oldest review.

 

[Marcio Watanabe]

Some serious flaws with your experiment:
1. You made the shopping list.
2. The shopping list doesn't include software or an HSF. When you add
Windows XP, Office, and a decent HSF (my last two HSF for AMD cost
$40+), you'll save very little if any, and you'll still need to spend
the time to build the thing.
3. The biggest flaw: she didn't actually buy the parts and built the
system herself!!! It's one thing to play around; it's another to
actually put your money where your mouth is. For example, I want to
know what she'd do about the HSF and thermal paste. You even said you
are tempted to build her system (instead of letting her build it).

The only thing you proved is that if you give a woman a shopping list,
she'll find things to buy even if knows nothing about what she's
buying.

I've build my computer systems for 14 years, but I'm buying my next
desktops from Dell. The Dell Optiplexes I recently bought for my
clients are of better quality than anything I can build for similar
prices. I can build something with better specs, but not an overall
better product. There is a great amount of thought and engineering
put in those Dell boxes, and contrary to what you said, I find the
Dells actually easier to upgrade. In fact, if someone can build a
better box than a Dell, I'm interested to hear it as I couldn't figure
out how to do it.

 

[Dave C.]

3. The biggest flaw: she didn't actually buy the parts and built the

system herself!!! It's one thing to play around; it's another to
actually put your money where your mouth is.

Actually, I was just discussing this issue with her yesterday. There's no
need for her to build a new system right now. But the next time she needs
an upgrade, I'm going to take her to a computer show (she HATES those
things). I told her she's going to spend my money, choose her parts at the
show and build the thing when we get home. I told her I'd only intervene if
she makes a really stupid mistake, like choosing a component that will not
work at all with another component.

Anyway, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. In real-time, even.
She's not looking forward to it, but she'll do it to make me happy. She
hasn't decided what I will owe her in return yet.

I'm going to really enjoy it. It will be great entertainment seeing her
pick out components and building a computer out of them in one day. There's
no doubt in my mind that whatever she comes up with will really kick some
serious butt. I'll give her a thousand bucks to play with, and she'll
probably use most, if not all of that. This will probably happen shortly
after BTX is common, so it will be a learning experience for me, too.

Based on what she came up with a couple of days ago, I can't WAIT to see the
BTX system this girl comes up with!!! -Dave

 

[Brad Bishop]

I've build my computer systems for 14 years, but I'm buying my next

desktops from Dell. The Dell Optiplexes I recently bought for my
clients are of better quality than anything I can build for similar
prices. I can build something with better specs, but not an overall
better product. There is a great amount of thought and engineering
put in those Dell boxes, and contrary to what you said, I find the
Dells actually easier to upgrade. In fact, if someone can build a
better box than a Dell, I'm interested to hear it as I couldn't figure
out how to do it.

The reasons why I'll just by a Dell next time instead of building one are:
* It's cheaper just to buy the Dell (when you add in the hardware and
software I don't think I could build it cheaper than just buying a Dell)
* They put quality parts inside (it's not like the Packard Bells of years
past)
* I won't have to screw with BIOS settings and swapping card slots to get
things to work (IRQ conflicts, etc.)

The basic idea: It'll come in a box and I'll plug it in. Then I'm up and
running.

It's much like the reason why I don't build my own car.

Brad

 

[ToMh]

When I went to Dell.com the cheapest Dimension 4600 that I saw was 798
after a 10% discount. It had P4-2.8/256mb/80gb/16x dvdrom/48x cdrw with
a 1 year warranty. That doesnt't look quite as good as the system of
the OP.

Obviously YMMV.

dick

I just ordered a Dell with P4 2.6Ghz/566 80 Gig drive 48xCDRW for my Mother in Law
for $399 after rebate. I could not build a system for that price. The best part about
that is that the system will work when it arrives, and I won't have to spend hours, heck,
maybe even days trying to get a custom system to work, and if she has a problem, she'll call
Dell and not me! She'll probably call me anyway, but not near as much as if I built
the system myself.
-Tom

 

[Dave C.]

I've build my computer systems for 14 years, but I'm buying my next

desktops from Dell. The Dell Optiplexes I recently bought for my
clients are of better quality than anything I can build for similar
prices. I can build something with better specs, but not an overall
better product. There is a great amount of thought and engineering
put in those Dell boxes, and contrary to what you said, I find the
Dells actually easier to upgrade. In fact, if someone can build a
better box than a Dell, I'm interested to hear it as I couldn't figure
out how to do it.

OOOOOooooooohhhhhhh!!!! Sheesh, I wonder how I missed that blurb earlier?
My wife has no hardware knowledge, zero interest in computer hardware and
has never built a computer before. Not once. She spec'd out a computer in
10 minutes that will kick the crap out of anything Dell could ever hope to
build. So what's your excuse? Note she didn't build it, but she could
have. I really don't think she would have screwed it up either, because I
know her. She takes a very logical approach to learning things she's never
done before. In simpler terms, if she doesn't know what the heck she's
doing, she will RTFM before she really screws up.

I just thought it was so funny in re-reading that paragraph to see someone
who has built systems for 14 years and thinks he can't beat a dell.
Meanwhile, I know my wife who is deliberately hardware ignorant could beat
dell on her first build without breaking a sweat, and with no help from
anybody. That is just sooooooooooooooo funny!!! -Dave

 

[Nonymous]

My wife has no hardware knowledge, zero interest in computer hardware and

has never built a computer before. ... She spec'd out a computer in
10 minutes that will kick the crap out of anything Dell could ever hope to
build.

She takes a very logical approach to learning things she's never
done before. ...if she doesn't know what the heck she's
doing, she will RTFM before she really screws up.

I know my wife who is deliberately hardware ignorant could beat
dell on her first build without breaking a sweat

But does she swallow?